So far Creator is a lot more fun than the prior two turns. It is nice to see progression happen rather than slamming into a wall like happened on the last 2 wings of Alexander. We will see how fast my group beats Creator. Our group has been through plenty of turn over though the wings of this zone. Only 3 people from our original group that started back in ARR remain in it. We lost the rest of the group in Gordias soon after our first clear of A2S and starting to play with A3S. Rebuilt and did not make it back to A3S before Midas came back. Midas cleared A5S and then hit the wall that was A6S. Lost some people there after getting to Vortexer. Rebuilt a couple of times and were finally getting close to a kill when 3.4 hit. Lot of our group was getting pretty depressed over the whole situation. Having to constantly have progression stalled while training replacements is not so fun.
This first week we spent our first raid night on Sophia ex and got our team all outfitted with her weapons. Other gear is mostly 240 with a few pieces of 250 from Creator normal. We got our clear of A9S Monday night and decided not to push on with just 30 min left on our raid night. This has definitely helped group morale.
Our raid schedule is just 3 nights a week for 3 hours per night. So think we are closer to a true "mid-core" group. We do use food and some potions but don't go all out with HQ penta melded crafted gear.
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10-05-2016, 04:18 AMVasala
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10-05-2016, 04:27 AMLulu89I feel the same it nicer too see more happening then just 3-6hr of fails, after fails..Quote:
Originally Posted by Vasala
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10-05-2016, 04:44 AMLambdafishNice jab at a comment that didn't say that, Velhart said that it is broken from a design perspective, which it is. The fights are tuned so that they become disjointed, with people skipping phases and missing whole sections of fights. The gear check is low, which is not a good way to make content easier. I like the content being easier, but if people are skipping these parts of fights no problem at this stage (we have only just gotten into week 2), then the devs have failed at making any kind of meaningful gear progression or content scaling, which anyone should see as bad whether you want easy content or not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lulu89
The same can be said of Sophia, which is not a hard fight to begin with (example: Nidhogg was fine, Sophia is disjointed) -
10-05-2016, 05:48 AMLulu89"Said the Hardcore/Eilits raider (the 1%) to the Casual raider (The 99%)" Again I say it not broken if if easy. Not everyone is skiping parts of the fights....Quote:
Originally Posted by Lambdafish
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10-05-2016, 06:08 AMVelhartI don't mean it being easier was why it has broken design. It was the tuning of the raids/gear scale/phase skipping that are in question. I don't think it should be so easy to skip phases with ilvl240 gear. It can be easier if it wants, as long as it mechanics and gear is properly tuned towards it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lulu89
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10-05-2016, 06:12 AMPasqualeDon't you know? Every1 who find this content easy or have different opinione = you are hardcore 100% u are the scrub 1%Quote:
Originally Posted by Lulu89
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10-05-2016, 06:20 AMWindi
Can we all get this discussion back on track by ditching "casual" and "hardcore" debate?
Like, here is some reality for you folks: Unless you are getting paid/participating in tourneys with any given game, you are casual. Everyone does this stuff because they want to take time out of their daily lives to have some fun. Delving into the complexity of game mechanics and exploiting it to get the most out of the game is really just another way of casual fun from somebody else.
So quit it. We're all casual. -
10-05-2016, 06:21 AMLulu89Ok i see what you getting at.. but.. think about it this way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Velhart
But ppl are missing what im saying. only the pro player/hardcore are the ones skipping crap. I run a very social/casule FC, and most of our member CANT skip on SopEX even in 235/240 gear. and yes we hav many clear but still cant skip. 40 clear and my team only skips the 1st Tank buster 3-4times.
I get what ppl are saying and i like this way.. it just alot, if not MOST ppl playing this game are not big OP raider or high DPS. The 99% have been out of raids for so long that it nice to see them trying again.. but it makeing the more Top/hardcore raider salty and rage bc it to easy for them and there skiping crap and burning to fast.
What I dont think ppl see is the other side of this.. and it that now there are more raider and more clear.. ppl are happer and winning after over a year of failing for weeks befor a clear.
That's what I'm saying. -
10-05-2016, 06:46 AMLulu89I alrdy have SopEX on farm and A9S cleared.. but im the 1%?Quote:
Originally Posted by Pasquale
Im saying stop being salty and be happy that there more ppl raiding and more clears. -
10-05-2016, 07:49 AMPasqualeU just said to the guy who was discussing about how ez easy the content for him that he is the 1% of the hardcore players when u don't even know who he is.. Assuming that every1 unhappy = hardcoreQuote:
Originally Posted by Lulu89
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10-05-2016, 08:02 AMKaitlanKela
Re: The topic - Phase Skipping with mediocre borderline "outdated" gear. Yeah, that I can get behind. The bosses imo should be "clearable" at minimum recommended ilvl with impeccable performance of mechanics and rotations. But at the minimum ilvl one shouldn't be able to skip mechanics. That should come when the fight becomes outgeared by stuff it drops. In this instance, likely around i260 or i265
Re: It's just "too easy" which was NOT the OPs point, but it's come up because of the clickbait title (let's be honest). These fights are just way more fun than Gordias and Midas. Therefore they're more marketable and healthier from an MMO lifecycle/business perspective. Because of this, I would argue that the difficulty adjustment is good becaue 1) it will extend the longevity of the game by attracting new people to raiding that would have been discouraged by the "difficulty" of prior tiers and 2) increase revenue for SE because "casuals"/"midcore" players will sub longer to do the savage content they otherwise would not have done, which in turn leads to new and more content development.
In that respect, it's the perfect level of difficulty. Sorry. :/ -
10-05-2016, 09:23 AMEul
I never clear any alex savage until today, I got my first page 1 from A9S and sooo happy with it, and the mechanic is much better than midas and gordian.
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10-05-2016, 09:31 AMVerius_NoxNot really a robot answer. The simple fact is the population of hardcore raiders is eclipsed by the population of midcore, and casual raiders. If the hardcore raiders get bored, and quit, it won't hit their numbers as hard as midcore or casual players getting bored and leaving, and no, not many people find trying to find a static that works for them, and can clear content in a decent time, fun. Nor do they find wiping for weeks on end on team jump rope mechanics fun.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pasquale
It's the unfortunate case that hardcore raiding is a very niche market, that they get pretty much ignored, but the last game that tried to market itself as the hardcore raiding bastion completely died within a month of its release. It's just not enough to matter. -
10-05-2016, 10:03 AMViridiana_SovariYou aren't the 99%. It isn't that black and white. The people who enjoyed Savage Midas are more like the 5% and you are more like the 10-15%. Stop assuming that the only people who liked Midas were those who cleared it(closer to 2%) or that by default the rest of the community is on your side. A much larger portion of the community is fine just doing normal mode in DF, MSQ, dungeons, dailies, leveling alts, crafting, and the occasional primal. If you aren't willing to make a static in the first place and schedule out the time for it then savage still isn't designed for you. If you are willing to make a static you already fall into the minority of the player base. I personally consider myself pretty casual with how I approach this game. I play for a max of 12-15 hours per week generally (closer to 4 or 5 hours after progression is done), and I'm already on the final phase of a12s. Sure we played a little more week one because of excitement over new content, but I still only played the game for maybe 20ish hours the whole week. And not all of that was spent raiding. I also completed the MSQ, did the new primal a bit, and a few dungeons to make sure I capped for the week. So now I'm looking at the next 7 months and asking myself what content do I have left to do. I am not going to enjoy this raid tier for very long b/c it flew by. With a bit of gear these fights are going to become complete joke status except maybe a12s, but it still won't be very hard after framing it for a few weeks. I personally enjoy content that challenges me as a player and I literally don't get anything that I really want until the next expansion comes out. That could very well be 7 months from now. That is a major issue. Raids are supposed to be designed to give longevity to the content and this savage tier simply doesn't give that. A11s and a12s were basically designed to be for the crowd that did midas, and then they just tuned it low. All that means is that people who still suck at mechanics will get their raids killed and the clear % won't increase that much. The same people will still be complaining in another month or so when they are stuck on a12s and thought they were finally going to be spoon fed kills.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lulu89
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10-05-2016, 10:12 AMViridiana_SovariWildstar died for other stupid reasons, tired of people using this excuse. People want fun content not stupid gating requirements that makes them grind stuff they hate for 2 months for the "right" to do the content they enjoy. They are reusing all the art assets for savage mode anyways. Barely any new ones. The cost for them to create the savage tier is extremely low and matches the size of the community that enjoyed it. You are comparing apples and oranges my friend. We are talking about a small portion of the budget going to support a small portion of the community which is completely acceptable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Verius_Nox
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10-05-2016, 12:29 PMLambdafishThank you for assuming. Your argument completely fell apart with this one little sentence. I am not Hardcore, you have cleared A9S, I have not, and I got Sophia onto farm today. I am however able to look past my own skill level and analyse this game from a design standpoint, which you seem to be unable to do. You seem to have ignored the fact that I said "I like the content being easier", because apparently I'm just the 1% talking down to you, good luck with that attitude, because in a social game like this, it won't get you far.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lulu89
This is exactly rightQuote:
Originally Posted by KaitlanKela
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10-05-2016, 01:23 PMLulu89
Being hardcore (pro players/more exp endgames) has lil to do with play time. It skill.... Again Yosh was asked to make endgame more hardcore and it back fired. Less ppl getting clears and more ppl quitting all together with raiding. You want harder game with less ppl to play with go to a diff game.. The old days are goon get over it.. Ppl don't have time for 6+ Hr raid 3-4 day a week to just fail for weeks on end.. I welcome easyer fights and more players!
Just Bc I see it one way don't make me wrong. Same go for you and everyone else. The bigger pitcher is that endgame was dyeing for many server to to it being to hard for less skilled players, and it needed to stop.
And just to set the record I'm hardcore .. But I'm done with seeing the same dam ppl clearing crap and not giveing 2 shit about the lower skill LV of newer player and just weaker gamers (noob as ppl like to call them) it getting old. Every new patch the same 40-50 endgames...Runing about in full raid gear. -
10-05-2016, 01:32 PMLulu89Who said that was about you? Not me.. That was a quote. I see the bigger pitcher. And SE too... After all look how easy raiding is now. Ya sure so what ppl skip shit.. And? Makeing it harder did not work!Quote:
Originally Posted by Lambdafish
I was pointing out that the last time SE did what the 1% asked it made more then 50% of the ppl that DID endgame quit raiding. The clear % dropped by over 1/2 going in to 3.0 Bc raiding was to hard for MOST(not all) of the ppl raiding
I'm not calling ppl out Im saying that 99% of the time ppl for get this is a casule game 1st and if only 5% of the pop is clearing endgame it to harder.(Not for everyone, but for most) -
10-05-2016, 01:40 PMNihility
i'd say the only really problem with creator savage is they made gordias savage so over the top extreme that all the raiding groups canabalized each other for best players and cut out all the less hardcore people and it got to the point where the only raids around were the playing like a full time job extremist players.
Then midan came out and was only mildly easier going so it didn't relieve the problem much at all.
so now the ready to go raid groups that were waiting for creator were way overtuned for the content.
It may be a bit on the easy side but for the majority of players it will be very welcome compared to the previous alexander raids -
10-05-2016, 01:54 PMLulu89In a nut shell! Of what I was getting at, sadly I'm sure most did not read the 2nd post.Quote:
Originally Posted by silentwindfr
This! +1 Someone that see the bigger picture.Quote:
Originally Posted by Verius_Nox
Yes the bar was set to high and now ppl are mad that it been lowered.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nihility
What ppl see as skiping, is just the bar being lower and more geared/skilled players pushing faster. Your not the bigger ## sadly. You clear you shit then stop playing for 3-4 months why 10000 or more other have to fail for 3-4 months only to see new gear come out just after they finish getting it. -
10-05-2016, 02:20 PMAquaslashHoly god, THIS. I saw pretty much all the hardcores on my server bail after their A8S clears and stayed gone for months. I only knew of 2 statics still around that were rocking their A8S gear. Only yesterday did I see one of the old guys come back just to sit in Idylshire with full 250 pentamelded gear, a Sophia weapon, and the Arrhideus mount.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lulu89
How is that better for the scene than what we have now? -
10-05-2016, 02:31 PMDuelleThis sort of goes back to my old argument about raid size and pacing. If Creator had been a 8 or 9-boss raid, you could make the first 3 bosses clearable by an i240 raid. Boss #4 being really difficult to clear in full i240 (though possible if your group is obscenely good), but easier once your raid has one or two drops from Creator. Bosses 5 and 6 would be slightly more difficult without a couple more drops. Bosses 7 and 8 would be even more difficult, and boss 9 would require your raid to be mostly i270 gear to clear.Quote:
Originally Posted by Velhart
The above works because the hardcore raiders can try to push as much as they can for the week, while the midcore raiding guilds would progress up to where they can but still get gear upgrades for their members and thus get stronger every week (barring RNGesus not being kind with drops). So while a 1% world-class raiding guild will kill boss #9 first, the midcore guilds wouldn't be that far behind. Bonus being that the "gear issue" wouldn't exist. -
10-05-2016, 03:02 PMUltimatecaliburIts the difference between 1% of the player population being Raiders and raiding for 3 months before taking a break and 25% of the player population being Raiders (Hardcore Raiders, "Midcore" Raiders and the higher skilled portion of the true Midcore population) and raiding for up to 6 months until the next patch releases.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquaslash
Hardcore Raiders (and the lower skilled Hardcore Raiders that call themselves "Midcore" Raiders) need to understand that they are a very very small and insular part of the total player population. -
10-05-2016, 03:53 PMSaitoHikariThis is very important too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur
One must understand that everything that happens in this game can set off chain reactions, and there's a higher potential of it happening the more people are involved.
In my own FC especially, there was a group in there that banged their heads against the wall throughout A3S and A6-7S especially for months on end, and this was a group that cleared all of Coil prior. The group began breaking up starting with A3S, and it set off a cycle of team members outright quitting the game/transferring out of the server with everyone else looking for replacements, before too many people quit at once and the team outright completely dissolved several weeks prior to 3.4.
Now you're thinking, this is probably only about a small group of some 8-10 people, right? Wrong. Each person that quit may have been another person's reason for playing the game in the first place, even outside of that group. That person quits, the other person becomes hugely demotivated to continue playing. Then their immediate friends start having doubts about their future in this game as well. And so on and so forth. (I know that personally, I'm only here because of 3 people who introduced me to the game in the first place, of which all of us were refugees from a different MMO. 1 of the 3 has quit, and another is showing doubts about continuing to play precisely because the first has quit. If the remaining two are gone, I know I probably wouldn't remain for much longer either, and I'm someone that doesn't raid at all.)
SE's goal is to keep as many people invested in this game as possible - and as we all know, Alexander has hurt the population quite a bit, even though the raiding scene in this game is supposedly small. -
10-05-2016, 04:15 PMCookieMonstaBecause those 10000 lack the skill and dedication to earn the BIS reward before the patch. This is very much like real life, you lack the chops, you lose the drops.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquaslash
My only opinion regarding improving community health is simply have more bosses with a more gradual curve. However, I disagree with giving out the best gear for little work.
My group for example, we cleared a4s only once, we accepted that we weren't good enough to clear faster so we could get bis gear. However, we accepted that and worked to improve so our next tier can be faster.
The first step to improvement is recognising one's shortcomings. And the next step is realising change doesn't happen over night, it may be you need to accept that it will take multiple raid tiers to improve.
Clearing early is also it's own reward, it allows u to go back to your casual life and do the things YOU want to do. E.g. Skipping the farming of the tedious 24 man gear. -
10-05-2016, 04:19 PMKarstenSThere were already some Interviews were theay said, this is not how its done in FF14.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyne_Lyons
At first they make the content with an open mind and everything they want to have in it.
Then they balance it. In the case of Alexander, its not they make the normal and then add extra stuff for savage. Its "In Savage you can see everything we wanted to show you" and for normal they tone it down and remove stuff.
The difference between Normal and Savage has been done during the balancing, not during the design procress of the content. -
10-05-2016, 04:51 PMvp_cmc
They eliminated casuals and midcore people in gordias (btw gordias was just fine for my static) and now they eliminate hardcore people from the game (we are in a12s, will clear it in 1-2 weeks I suppose). So I think in 4.0 they plan to remove difficult raiding alltogether, change rotations (jobs have 1 button that they should mash all day long seems about right) and make completing story from 2.0 to 4.0 the hardest part of the game
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10-05-2016, 05:20 PMCosmicKirbyYou must be so much fun at parties. What with your absurd hyperbole, the trampoline you used to jump to conclusions, and the slip in slide you have for all those slopes.Quote:
Originally Posted by vp_cmc
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10-05-2016, 05:24 PMPasquale
I still think a good solution for everyone is something harder than Creator but Easier than Midas cuz again this is so much easier than midas and as last raid tier it is supposed to last longer ( cuz of the expansion) . It'snice to have more people clearing the content but it's even better if more people clear a challenging content
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10-05-2016, 05:51 PMBourne_EndeavorI think Living Liquid and Brute Justice would be okay for the final fight in a six or eight tier raid. Even two of them together as the A5-A6 wouldn't be too bad, seeing people who aren't interested in that level of difficulty still have six fights to enjoy. What I feel bogs everything down is how laughably easy normal is. With it being story centric, no one ought to expect anything absurd, but it certainly shouldn't be a complete faceroll. That does nothing to help gradually attune players to any difficulty spike nor does it offer any opportunity to practice. With extreme primals, you can sort of bounce between them and get a general gauge on their difficulty. When I finally cleared my first at relevant ilvl (Nidhogg), it made adjusting to Sophia EX much easier. Alexander has lacked this due to normal mode being largely a joke.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pasquale
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10-05-2016, 05:54 PMCessna
I think ultimately this content NEEDS to happen this way. As a member of successful statics I can tell you I would never had succeeded without a large raiding population. Statics are exclusive clubs that once in a while need to purge members that don't conform or are unable to do so for what ever reason. You can't do that well if the raids scare off the player base in mass which Gordias and a6s did. And Putting up with raids that force large segments of the population to server transfer isn't good either.
Its going to take some time maybe even another raid cycle for the raid community to recover from the brutal difficulties of Gordias and a6s.
Only after the raiding community gets back on its feet that maybe we can up the difficulty on raids.
As for normal mode... difficulty is right where it needs to be. -
10-05-2016, 06:34 PMPasqualeJust a question , i saw a lot of people refeer to A6s , you mean how it was or after the nerf? Because again i agree the Midas when lunched was something really hard but after A6s nerf : A5s easy / A6s nerfed / A7s nothing hard maybe a bit of dps checks / A8s hard but was the last fightQuote:
Originally Posted by Cessna
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10-05-2016, 07:37 PMVanitas
Kek Yoshida, The creator.
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10-05-2016, 08:25 PMAquaslashThat would be fine and dandy if those 10000 weren't the ones footing the bill. If you drive them off then you have only the hardcores and if the hardcores wont say for 6 months then we're just another Wildstar.Quote:
Originally Posted by CookieMonsta
That said, let the record show that I am actually in support of a super hard mode for those that want it. However, Alexander as a raid is grossly flawed on a conceptual level. The entire system needs to be taken back to the drawing board and heavily reworked. The fact that Creator is less difficult than the others is a necessary evil, a concession if you will, in order to repair the broken community, and that is perfectly fine, at least temporarily. Sacrifice the few to save the many, It's ugly, but somebody's gotta do it.
The real moral of the story is second coil did it better -
10-05-2016, 08:33 PMGallus
People complain about Gordias but I liked its high DPS requirements, the only thing I didn't like was that stupid A3 flubber and its 90k millions of nonintuitive oneshot mechanics and marks.
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10-05-2016, 08:36 PMKallera
The devs stated themselves that the creator's tuning was intentional because the skill required for top dps,their reluctance in teaching the rotation step by step to players, results in a gap of dps that is too large for players to participate. With the announcement that this skill gap is hopefully going to be addressed in 4.0, something still needed to be done now, or participation in the creator is going to be dismal.
Raising needs people interested in it. and it can only draw upon its current crop of players, that have been running easier content. For many, raiding so bad that it might as well not exist, SE clearly doesn't want that, even if it means all the nerfs in the world, but unless they hit the sweet spot of difficulty, people are just not going to put up with the hassle and elitist nature that comes from content demanding players play seemingly perfectly with no window for error. -
10-05-2016, 09:03 PMWatachyThey should just start by creating 3 difficulty modes: Normal - Brutal - Savage for raids, and then i think the raiding scene would improve.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kallera
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10-05-2016, 10:27 PMDzianThat's partly why so many people don't raid. what really is or was the point in doing midas savage, when the rewards you get from it are made useless on the day of a patch? made obsolete by crafted stuff even before the next tier is unlocked..Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyne_Lyons
the way i see it is all this tuning and direction changing between tiers is an attempt to get more people into savage contents but it doesn't work and never will work because they fail to address the things that keep people out. and the lack of "valuable reward" is a big one.. the fact that most static groups i see in party finders want to run 4 hours a night 4 nights a week is another one.
it's like the devs attempts to incentivise raiding by making it more and more accessible are having a negative impact because by creating crafted gear that obseletes the previous tiers rewards you're basically stripping all value from those rewards and thus all incentive for players to even try and get them. the more accessible it gets the less rewarding it becomes.
i kinda think that instead of making raiding more and more accessible they'd have much more success if they shifted there focus towards making it more rewarding and worthwhile instead -
10-05-2016, 11:09 PMReynhartThe problem with raiding is that it's a kind of self-fulfilling prophecy. You'll raid to gain reward that will be useful...to raid.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzian
So if you're not into raiding, you'll just don't care about the reward...since you'll just gather tome gear to clear everything else.
That's why I think tome gear should always be lower than Expert dungeon gear. If you want to stay ahead of current content, you'd have to do the previous raid. If not, you'll struggle your first few runs of EX dungeons before you drops several items.
For example, in 3.0 you would only have one type of tomestones, where you can buy ilvl160 gear.- Neverreap/Fractal would require an ilvl of 145 (You can buy i150 from vendors), and drop i170.
- Gordias normal would require i160 and drop i180
- Gordias Savage would require i175 and drop i200
In 3.1, you'd have :- Pharos/Arboretum would require i160 and drop i185.
- Void Ark would require i170 and drop i190
In 3.2, you would have a new type of tomestones to buy ilvl190 gear- Antitower/Amdapor would require i175 and drop 200.
- Midas normal would require i190 and drop i210
- Midas Savage would require i205 and drop i230
and so on...
This way, unless you do Savage, new dungeon gear would always be an upgrade upon what you already have. -
10-05-2016, 11:38 PMAquaslashThis is fine so long as you replace the tome gear with a equal ilvl set obtainable by whatever is fitting. I personally enjoy min maxing gear and dont want to be shoehorned into wearing only one set because it has the highest ilevel.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
It's why the raid weapon system is awful imo. Yeah its usually got the most damage, but what if I get a bad stat roll (like creator's drg weapon). I LIKED having over 1000 crit thank you very much. It's ok to have more than one viable build