Players Who Don't pull their weight.

TLDR thread.
Let's play out this scenario...... I main smn. I love it, but I wanna try something else for a change. So I level a blm. After a bit of a grind I finally hit 60 and lo and behold, I can use the same gear as my smn. BOOM! Insta i220. Wait, what the hell is fire 4?!?! I can't keep eno up anymore because my rotation changed. Because I'm learning, does that mean I'm not pulling my weight for the week or two it'll take to learn the new rotation? Do I deserve to be harassed because the only place I can learn my new rotation is in ex level content?
Give players a chance.

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Originally Posted by BorisDaBlade

TLDR thread.
Let's play out this scenario...... I main smn. I love it, but I wanna try something else for a change. So I level a blm. After a bit of a grind I finally hit 60 and lo and behold, I can use the same gear as my smn. BOOM! Insta i220. Wait, what the hell is fire 4?!?! I can't keep eno up anymore because my rotation changed. Because I'm learning, does that mean I'm not pulling my weight for the week or two it'll take to learn the new rotation? Do I deserve to be harassed because the only place I can learn my new rotation is in ex level content?
Give players a chance.

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There is a training area you can practice rotations on in Dravanian Hinterlands. You shouldn't need to head straight into EX content on a new level 60 without knowing your rotations.

Yeah statically sitting still, but even a trash mob aoe can throw everything off when you don't know the rotation or even how to save it.

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Originally Posted by BorisDaBlade

Yeah statically sitting still, but even a trash mob aoe can throw everything off when you don't know the rotation or even how to save it.

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No one is expecting perfect play, people are expecting you to at least try to push the buttons, a lot of people in dungeons straight out go afk auto attacking or don't even bother trying their most basic rotation, you see their tp or mp never going down, their buffs never up, and likely being outdpsed by tanks and healers.

I know for a fact doing the 2.0 rotation on BLM still does more dmg than what most DF people can pull because they can't pay attention to what's in front of their screen.

It's even worse when they die and they throw the innocent "oops maybe I should close netflix xD" remark, or when they admit they were chatting with their fc/ls mid battle.

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Originally Posted by BorisDaBlade

TLDR thread.
Let's play out this scenario...... I main smn. I love it, but I wanna try something else for a change. So I level a blm. After a bit of a grind I finally hit 60 and lo and behold, I can use the same gear as my smn. BOOM! Insta i220. Wait, what the hell is fire 4?!?! I can't keep eno up anymore because my rotation changed. Because I'm learning, does that mean I'm not pulling my weight for the week or two it'll take to learn the new rotation? Do I deserve to be harassed because the only place I can learn my new rotation is in ex level content?
Give players a chance.

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You can practice your rotation on a dummy or with friends. I fate grinded DRG from 30 to 51 in a day and immediately was looking through youtube, reddit and here for the best rotation I could use along the way. I even went ahead and adapted a 60s rotation at that time just to help myself weave in the new abilities as they came since I already knew where they would fit. Basically, with a little effort, you can learn how to play your job without too much difficulty. Nevertheless, it's quite easy to tell people who are inexperienced but trying from those simply being lazy. Inexperienced healers, for instance, may slightly overheal or change to and from Cleric Stance rapidly because they're not yet comfortable. Lazy healers either won't touch Cleric Stance at all or simply stand around doing nothing when there isn't any damage to heal.

You'll find players far more tolerant if they notice you're trying.

You all have made some good points about the SSS usage. And also some even better points about the auto attacking afk'ers that this thread is probably more directed towards.

Oh and I wasn't saying anything about, "It's my sub, I'll play how I want!" type attitude, some people just have a harder time playing "optomally" compared to what the community as a whole expects from that class.

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Originally Posted by BorisDaBlade

some people just have a harder time playing "optomally" compared to what the community as a whole expects from that class.

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The community as a whole actually expects very little and is pretty easy to get along with. Anything posted on these forum threads should never be mistaken for a widely-held opinion, because this is where the vocal minority shows up, usually to complain. (EDIT: It occurs to me that this is probably your point, but still. )

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Originally Posted by Seraphix2407

When a person tell another person how to play better or improve, the second player goes in whine mode and call them elitist.

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It's all in how you say it, and what you choose to say it about.

Fairly often, though usually when doing lower level roulettes, someone who's clearly unfamiliar with their stuff comes along, and they're pretty obvious -- usually it's a tank that's face-pulling and not standing still, sometimes it's a DPS not doing positionals, sometimes it's a person who isn't avoiding AoEs. So, go like, "<player>, would you care for some advice?" If they answer, or if they don't answer but whatever it is they're doing results in a death (and thereby indicates an obvious mistake), then a simple statement is all that's needed.

Far, far too many people default to sarcasm and derisiveness when dealing with random players. It demonstrates a real life character flaw belonging to that person, whether or not they tell themselves it doesn't count due to anonymity, but sadly can make games like these feel pretty unpleasant.

In any case, giving people feedback, even well-intentioned, ought to be kept limited to obvious stuff. More technical areas like, for example, the minutiae of maximizing one's DPS is, unless they asked for the help outright or are part of a static, none of anyone else's business. The kind of person who scrutinizes stuff like letting a DoT fall off, sub-optimal timing of buffs, etc. wholeheartedly deserves the snide rebuttal. It simply doesn't matter. Very little content in this game is really difficult enough for that to make a real difference to party members.

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Originally Posted by Mahri

The community as a whole actually expects very little and is pretty easy to get along with. Anything posted on these forum threads should never be mistaken for a widely-held opinion, because this is where the vocal minority shows up, usually to complain. (EDIT: It occurs to me that this is probably your point, but still. )
It's all in how you say it, and what you choose to say it about.

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Ofc, you don't have to be a ass about it. However, when a person is soooooooooooooooooooooo nice and sweet and the other person says; I don't give a shit, I'll play however I want, mind your own shitty business etc, sits back and let people work hard. Cries when things doesn't go her/his way and start telling people they are shit. Happens too often. TBH this game have more of these players than those ''elitist'' people talk about. Everyone who knows me on my server or other servers I've played on knows this. I can tolarate if people aren't top but doing good, than those who sits back and just want a freebie. If people are like that, they shouldn't whine about it. They have to fix their own attitude first and maybe people stop calling them bad?

I think the other issue is SE doesn't give them a middle content to even try, because the gap on content on this game is simply too big. I can understand that, however I have plenty of friends who doesn't raid hardcore or even raid at all and they are really good players. Look, I have 2 fc members who joined 1 month ago and been playing the game for 3 months? They hit 60 like 1 month ish ago, nailed the DRG/MNK opener and substained somewhat a good dps on a dummy for 3min then you find those who sit back and cry they have to do some decent amount of clicking on their keyboard/pads and just expects everything for free. Like I said earlier, if people wanna be lazy and ungreatful they can find their own group who wanna do that sort of thing or simply get better and get accpeted in good groups.

It's like what you said, the community as a whole don't expect a lot, they expect so so much (being decent atleast). For me I want to play the best each time I try a new class or my main jobs, but if someone is doing decent, that's fine. I just find it super sad when a tank and a healer out dps people who are dps.

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Originally Posted by BorisDaBlade

TLDR thread.
Let's play out this scenario...... I main smn. I love it, but I wanna try something else for a change. So I level a blm. After a bit of a grind I finally hit 60 and lo and behold, I can use the same gear as my smn. BOOM! Insta i220. Wait, what the hell is fire 4?!?! ....
Give players a chance.

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Again, back to what I said about players being sensible on what to expect. At this point, you should at least know that enochian gives you a flat damage boost, and that you can refresh it with blizzard IV. Nevermind that you should at least know how Fire III and Blizzard III works on swapping your astral/umbral state.

Your train of thought does not excuse BLMs at level 60 that alternate between casting fire I and blizzard I to conserve mana, waiting on transpose to swap those states and only using III spells, straight up not using enochian at all, or being an ice mage.

There's playing optimally, learning, and just not giving a shite to your party. Out of those three, it's the last one that bugs me and it's very obvious when it's the case.

Let's ask ourselves a simple question(s) here. If everyone was playing as bad as a bad player does, would it lead us/you/me to anywhere? You that person who does 500 dps in expert roullettes, the person who does 700 in weeping city? The person who overheals 60% and spam cure 2 when there is nothing to heal? Or the DPS who doesn't keep the dps buff up (heavy trust, etc). If everyone played like you,do you honestly think it would be okay and the most importent key, okay for them to die on every mechanic because they refuse to listen or simply just go with ''I play however I want'' attitude, would you be okay with it? Highly doubt it, because you would mostlikely not even see the gear or things you have right now.


People often forget and there are soooooooooooooooooooooo many people that are aware they are bad but keep getting carried. For me when I do ravana these days and I see a guy doing 600 dps in a group, I could easily kill it fast as we are with or without him, because 600 dps isn't that big in ravana extreme. Does he get carried? Hell yeah, because if the rest was playing like this game, the runs would mostlikely be slower plus bigger chance of wipe fest due to more mechanics. So think before you judge others and tell them to take a piss, because without many players out there with a decent mind you woulnd't gone anywhere. And you know what I call those type of players? Toxic, ignorant and super selfish. Do I care if I hurt their feelings? Not really, your bad attitude and lazynes got you there in the first place.

If you are one of those players who barely have any knowledge but seek it, you should ask or take advice in the first place. Like seriously if you really doubt on your skill or anything like that, first thing you do is ask people or even google for rotations or anything. Many people done it, why can't you?

As objectively as possible I read and think to myself...

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Originally Posted by Seraphix2407

when a player refuses to improve over months and many tell them and not only 1 person, guess who's fault that is? Not the douchebag elitist person you speak of, but the person who just sits there and want everything free.

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Question 1: How do you know the person in your DF has refused to improve their playstyle for months, and that multiple people have tried to address this in a kind manner to them?
Question 2: If you know this person personally from your server and have noticed they just want to be carried, Why are you continuing to invite them to your group?

I'm not saying it's impossible for these types of people to exist. But you either know, or.. well you don't. In the case of you knowing, then you're willingly subjecting yourself to this person. You've made the choice to take them on, so the only complaint should be about your own ability to make decisions with your own time and sanity.
And then If you don't know. how and why is it justifiable to punish these people. It's why punishable systems shouldn't be in player hands, Or in the hands of an autonomous system.

As for how to handle this, Vote kick people and play with people whom you deem worthy. You've answered your own problem.

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Originally Posted by Seraphix2407

If people wanna be lazy and ungreatful they can find their own group who wanna do that sort of thing or simply get better and get accpeted in good groups.

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You have no control over who you're with or the ability to force people to abide by your above comment which i do agree with. So control what it is you can control. But complaining about something you've willingly thrust yourself into, which would be a Duty Finder with randoms, and then complaining about said people? Well Technically you brought this on yourself. You picked Duty Finder. You Selected join. You pressed all the necessary buttons required of you and you understand the circumstances and possible consequences of your actions yes? Then who exactly is it do we blame? Certainly not ourselves. We, the masters of our reality are never wrong. No. It's The other guy. It's because THEY decided to join OUR Duty Finder. But Wait. Didn't you know or think about the possible implications of your actions? How this situation could have negatively affected you? You understand the rules of this virtual contract, no? I certainly do not condone the people who want to be carried or are lazy. but you understood the possibility of someone like that joining yes? If not. Well you certainly know now.

Which brings me to this...

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Originally Posted by Sipherous

Lets ignore the run with friends argument, as it stands your friends are always available. Times do not always match up. We have lives and dont always have the ability to play together.

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*Ahem*.... So...
I can see this working for Savage. Maybe. But then if you're taking Savage seriously, you have a Static so... Problem solved...

But everything else?

You don't have friends who are on who you can group up with who are always on when you are and so that invalidates the idea of "go with friends"? If you have friends who don't play when you play, How exactly did you make those online friends. I can understand Real Life friends, or those who's schedules have changed... But are we pretending we've met our friend limit and we're no longer able to make any more friends? Off the top of my head we can have up to 200 people on our friends list and we're going to actually sit here and pretend to ourselves that out of 200 people, we can't align the stars and have 3-7 people get together for 15-40 Minutes? If this is your situation and you can't play with 200 of your always offline friends, then you should probably make some room for more friends... Then we have our Free Company, and Linkshells....

Like really? REALLY? you can't find competent people on your server to play with to eliminate these problems entirely? Are you sure you're not the lazy ones? It's pretty easy to sit on this forum, complain and suggest a punishment for people who don't play the way you expect them to isn't it? You don't have to do a damn thing. Everyone else has to do something about it. Not you though. How convenient it must be.

Lets lie to ourselves further that this is an actual problem we can't actively avoid RIGHT NOW, by actually putting in a few more button/key strokes more than simply Que'ing up Duty Finder. Yeah that'll make all our problems disappear. Let's not take anything into our own hands or anything and make our own experience any better.

I don't mean to go old-school, but back in my day (FFxi) We actually had to, get this -make friends- Pretty crazy right? There was no Duty Finder. I surrounded myself with groups of like minded individuals and erased any doubt in my mind that someone couldn't perform their job. AND LIKE, 20 PEOPLE PLAYED THAT GAME. Don't try to tell me you can't meet 3-7 people you can play this game with with all the resources available to allow you to do so. It might be a bit more extra effort than you currently put in to ask people to join you or help you out, than Queing up for a Duty finder. But in the end you will 100% of the time save yourself time and have far more fun. But then again, you wouldn't have anything to complain about. And I'm not saying people who are complaining here are like this... But some people aren't happy unless they have something to complain about.

How about take your life into your own hands and stop being a backseat driver? What are you a Beta Male/Female? You Act like the Alpha. How about prove it.

I play only roulettes With friends beside trials. So for me its not issue. However it is for everyone Else :) lazy is the New standard No?

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Originally Posted by Leigaon

I think a lot of it has to come from the way that iLV plays a part in dungeons...

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*Slow clap*...

Bang on the money with this post. Well said.

I actually want to highlight a few things that you said so that others didn't miss it.

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Originally Posted by Leigaon

...You can ignore mechanics, you don't have to activate cool downs...

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This has always been a huge problem in this game for me. At the start of the patch when new content is released, like you were saying - the content starts out fine normally (even at the start of every new release of the 2x 4-man dungeons) people take a lot more damage than they are used to from plowing through the previous 2 dungeons at the end of the patch. This is kind of expected to an extent but it quickly becomes a non-issue and you're back to pulling 100 mobs and AoEing them down.

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....Meanwhile, I think there should be a reduction of mobs in places to compensate for the time it will take. Say for snowcloak, there's no need for all those trash until the first gate. They want to punish us for AoE'ing more than so many mobs, yet put us in situations where that's optimal at that point. Give us the trio of guys at a certain point and have one of the bigger ones have an Endgame / Boss like ability..mix that up with everything else, it would hopefully push peole

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I wanted to highlight this whole paragraph, mostly because I have had a similar opinion from the very beginning of 2.0... Trash mob's abilities mean absolutely nothing. They are just a red telegraph on the ground that you need to avoid.

I would kill for the increase in difficulty on trash mobs in dungeons and reduce the shear number of mobs. Throw an oldschool Coincounter in there that deals boss-like damage with no telegraphs.. Add in a non-telegraphed Chimera that forces you to pay attention to breaths and voices... Make the trash worth the attention, and people in general would be less face grindy through all of this content.

I understand that 4-man dungeons should be "accessible" as they are just the tome grindy dungeons but it doesn't mean you have to simply throw a whole lot of open world mobs in a dungeon, give them a bit more HP and call it a day. Give us "trash" that is not truly "trash"...

Remember those rock golems in Turn 1 & 3 in coil? They could wreck your party if you didn't tank them properly & if you weren't paying attention. (Sure that was coil... However they are considered "trash".)
That random coin counter in Snowcloak? (he is rather easy and has low HP even with appropriate iLvl)... Add more bosses that create an impact and actually forces people to focus..

Hell, if they are feeling super creative, randomize these "big trash mobs" so you don't always get the same mob..

There are a number of ways they could make the 4-man stuff more interesting over and above the existing formula of "Trash > boss > trash > boss > trash > boss".. This is in my opinion the real reason why people "don't care" in 4-man dungeons.. It's because they don't have to.

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Originally Posted by Kaeoni

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Weren't you advocating positive approach to people in DF few pages back? And now you are condescending and mocking Sipherous for his ability to make friends? Calling him lazy and stuff? What if the dude has some social disorder and so his ability to make friends is limited?

Telling individuals that they should stop using DF is not solution to anything... DF is for everybody meaning even for the people who complain on the forum and they have right to complain for being exploited by people who waste their time. There is absolutely no reason that DF should stay a feature only for the underperforming players. DF is part of the game, everyone is entitled to use it...

Yet not all the players should play together. The people do not work like that. There should seriously be something done about DF to improve it, at least more options when selecting the duty instead of just one tick. The Raid Finder with it's options to select phases and clear/training is a good step forward.

I like how different the whole "bad/lazy player in DF" approach is between cultures. I am playing on a japanese server -speaking the language, mind you- and the whole mentor system is a nice sign of how Japanese want to tackel the issue: Help your fellow men. Give them advice, encourage them and don't be negative. At the same time the learner is expected to give their best and have a certain degree of respect. Senpai - Kouhai if you want.

This is virtually unkown to the western playerbase. Mentor system is more or less just some kind of ePeen extension, bad people should be punished or virtually removed from the good peoples experience and people are comming up with the most ludicrous people rating systems ever. Meanwhile every bit of advice is immidiatly seens as attack on someones character and people throw a hissy fit.

Also, I absolutely love the tags for this thread. "Elite players matter more". They absolutely don't. They are a minority a.k.a. not making SE the amount of money the casual playerbase does.

Makes me happy that the devs are not reading the NA forum.

Why do people still call people elitist? Ever thought about people who log on for 5hours a week plays better than majority? Are those elitist? I have a Word for bad people too then, just not gonna say it because it would make them explode how correct i am.

I'm not the last to consider there are sometimes really bad players BUT, you can't judge other players based on your own expectations and interests in games. Back in old gaming time, there were easy, normal hard modes in games. Some people were seeking challenges and were always playing hard mode and some other just wanted to spend "relaxation"/free time without any kind of challenge and were playing normal mode and even easy. This is NOT lazyness, just an other kind of interest. Some are always looking for challenges, some other are looking for some kind of relaxation while playing. Sometimes... they are just not playing their main.

I suggest you to keep that in mind.

If you consider they are egoist, you are too. There never is only one way to play a game. I agree there is a minimum, but you are not legit to expect they play like you (or like you think you play your game. We NEVER are always perfect, we are pretty far from perfection. Did you notice that real hardcore players in professionnals teams really really really rarely -if never- complain about other players game style? If they want to play real hardcore, they have a team to do so, if not, they are not the last to play and envoy playing casualy).

Finally, too often, the most players who argue against other players in dungeon are more watching what other are doing rather than playing there own f***ing job and the most fun, you kick them, everything is going fine after.

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Originally Posted by Altena

Snip

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I love those Ideas!

I think this type of thing which forces players to actively engage and deal with situations could really help, Especially If implemented and experienced while the player is still learning to enforce good habits!

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Originally Posted by Archaell

Weren't you advocating positive approach to people in DF few pages back? And now you are condescending and mocking Sipherous for his ability to make friends? Calling him lazy and stuff? What if the dude has some social disorder and so his ability to make friends is limited?

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I'll start with this. Highlighting the main word from that piece i wrote below.

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Originally Posted by Kaeoni

As objectively as possible I read and think to myself...

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I've said this 50 times it feels like... =/
If you're going to complain about other random people you have no control over. Then you'd probably have a more positive outlook on this game if you made your own groups. Is this false? If you're constantly complaining about other people in DF and you're distraught because of constantly being paired up with people who just aren't pulling their weight then is making your own group the wrong answer? MMOs are social experiences. Massive Multiplayer Online Game. If you don't understand that playing an MMO means you're Online, in a multiplayer environment... I dunno what else to say...

And for the record I'm not mocking anyone. Maybe it sounds like it from the way I type. But I'm pretty light hearted. I'm suggesting answers to questions. Answers that currently exist in the game right now. We have the ability to fix these problems. And If you choose not to fix them then yes. I apologize, but that is by definition lazy. And It's a shame because the amount of fun you could behaving right now at this very second could be easily multiplied. I have ADHD. Social anxiety comes with it. I don't take medication for it probably because I'm an idiot and I want to suffer with my problem. But I don't believe in taking medication for it because I want to overcome it even if it is something i'll have for the rest of my life. I give it everything I've got, every day. Most people don't have an excuse. But I don't use my problem as a crutch. I struggle desperately to better myself. and people see that and are receptive. Naturally you have to take my word for it. But at the end of the day I can sleep knowing what I did, at least by my own set of morals was right. I have 16 friends on my FL, a Free Company full of about 20 pretty active members, 2 Hunt LS's including an LS I made for people I like to talk to because /tells are annoying and full of RMT crap and It just clogs up my chat screen. haha. I mean I'm far below what I could have? I still do DF a lot of the time, but I usually take 2-3 people with me into everything cuz we like to hang out.

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Originally Posted by Archaell

Telling individuals that they should stop using DF is not solution to anything... DF is for everybody meaning even for the people who complain on the forum and they have right to complain for being exploited by people who waste their time. There is absolutely no reason that DF should stay a feature only for the underperforming players. DF is part of the game, everyone is entitled to use it...

Yet not all the players should play together. The people do not work like that. There should seriously be something done about DF to improve it, at least more options when selecting the duty instead of just one tick. The Raid Finder with it's options to select phases and clear/training is a good step forward.

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I didn't suggest people should stop using DF. I suggested it to people who are fed up. I can understand that. I really can. But is complaining going to do anything about it? And is there a way to free yourself from this pain currently in the game? Well... I'm sorry for saying for the 51st time... there is... Make your own groups....

What some people here have suggested, Is putting a little yellow star on peoples jackets letting everyone know who these people are. Because marginalization of a group of people has never proven a problem in the past right? An extreme example, I know... But As I've said in the past. We the players, and an autonomous system can't accurately and are not entitled to rating DF people based off 10-40 minutes of primarily non-verbal contact.

This is coming from someone who has a long history of tanking both in FFXIV and many other MMOs, but I personally hate tanks who feel the need to punish the whole party because their job as a tank isn't all wrapped up in a nice little bow. I'm talking about the type of person who will kick another player for doing aoe instead of attacking only his target or who won't pick up adds that get accidentally pulled (which is usually from the tank's bad positioning of the enemies in the first place). The only reason why Tanks specifically feel so entitled in this game are because of their short wait times, meaning that they don't care if the Duty fails or you kick them because they don't have to wait for anything.

Just recently I had an ordeal happen in Aetherochemical Research Facility where the tank would keep very little aoe aggro and tried to pull very few enemies. During the first pull, the other dps in our party was confused as to why the tank didn't continue and accidentally ran into the wall of 3 mechs that spawn. Not only did this tank refuse to take these adds from the dps, but he didn't even re-aggro 2 of the initial enemies when the healer stole aggro from him. This event essentially repeated itself until we got to Regula Van Hydrus, at which point he went eternally afk, making it so that we 3-manned the boss while waiting for the 15 min initial wait to lift so we could kick him.

Of course, there's also the type of tank who doesn't really know how to, but when you try to help them in earnest, they spit in your face. I remember a problem I had with a player some time ago where he was playing a Gladiator (not a Paladin) in Dzemael Darkhold and he had on Disciple of the Land gear. While the first part of the dungeon and even the first boss is completely doable with those shortcomings, it became increasingly evident that he didn't even use flash to hold aoe aggro. Upon informing him about the Job quests and telling him that using flash will help him hold aggro, he started cursing at me and telling me that I don't know what I'm talking about. He then proceeded to do absolutely nothing (not that him auto-attacking was reallying doing anything) and follow us around presumably trying to get me kicked. The party as a whole was wiser than that and we eventually kicked him, but unfortunately after doing so, he was able to instantly re-join 3 times, essentially ending our chances of finding a legitimate tank that could complete the Duty.

I'm all for teaching new players how to play or trying to help players who are struggling with their roles, but when in a Duty you must participate, and intentionally failing to do so in order to cause others grief is a reportable offense.

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Originally Posted by Archaell

Telling individuals that they should stop using DF is not solution to anything... DF is for everybody meaning even for the people who complain on the forum and they have right to complain for being exploited by people who waste their time. There is absolutely no reason that DF should stay a feature only for the underperforming players. DF is part of the game, everyone is entitled to use it...

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DF is part of the game, everyone is entitled to use it...

And you want to shut people out that don't preform well enough for your standarts? Well, by my standart you should be labelled as utter trash if you don't:

a)use HQ food
b)use HQ pots on cooldown
c)execute your rotation to 100% efficiency all the time
d)your damage is not within 1% of the top logs as any class
e)you have a voice comm set up
f)have absolute BiS gear
g)have all classes at 60 and fully geared so you can play to class synergy to the max
h)a decent latency. I will not waste 10 seconds of my time if your latency screws MY experience over
i)fluently in english, german,french and japanese to assure comminucation is at an all time high
j)have no other obligations besides XIV for the time we are in a group, again MY time is precious
k)play the game at at least 60 fps seeing that you being slowed down by limited hardware makes the run last 20-40 seconds longer

And no, we will not introduce a system that has gradual 1-5 star rating system. Either you are playing at 110% or you are not. You are trash or you are not.

Seriously, stop taking yourself so god damn serious. This is a game. If you can not handle people taking a game less serious than you, don't play or surround yourself with likeminded people.

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Originally Posted by Kaeoni

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Think about it like this: Would you rather players to complain on forums or inside of the DF? In my book it is pointless to complain in-game - that just makes things worse. On the other hand forum seems like a good place to provide feedback about your gaming experience.

Premade groups are not solution to the state of DF. It just allows the player to avoid the issue. Some players are okay with that, some are trying to propose changes that could make DF better. Of course there are suggestions that could lead to more actively toxic community, but that is again matter of perspective. Personally I see bigger problem with the passively toxic community - players who are not doing their best while joining groups of random people. I can deal with a jerk, dealing with a person who sux and you don't know what is the reason behind it is much more difficult. There are many players who are exploiting the "it could be a kid, old lady or impaired person" argument and the worst part about it is that this approach is working very well in the current setting.

How do we fix this? How do we make players more responsible for their actions with the current tools? Unless there is a fixed feature that would motivate players to pay attention and play better I don't think we can fix this. For the Party Finder we could maybe talk about server wide black lists, but DF has absolutely no consequences beyond the small chance of getting kicked, which is funnily so low because many players are afraid of being reported for harassment.

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Originally Posted by Waterdeep

And you want to shut people out that don't preform well enough for your standarts? Well, by my standart you should be labelled as utter trash if you don't:

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It is not nice to label the whole player base "trash". Not to mention that you have to follow your own rules otherwise you would be "trash" as well. There is a difference between wanting players to contribute and the points you mentioned.

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Originally Posted by Waterdeep

Seriously, stop taking yourself so god damn serious. This is a game. If you can not handle people taking a game less serious than you, don't play or surround yourself with likeminded people.

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The funny thing about your post is that you actually wrote the most important piece in small letters. Having an option to surround yourself with likeminded people inside of DF is something that is missing.

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Originally Posted by Waterdeep

[I]D.[/SIZE]

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Someone is clearly butthurt. QUOTE anyone who say we need those standars. We only want decent gameplay. Sorry to say but you have the toxic side of the community. Sad.

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Originally Posted by Archaell

It is not nice to label the whole player base "trash". Not to mention that you have to follow your own rules otherwise you would be "trash" as well. There is a difference between wanting players to contribute and the points you mentioned.

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I am not labelling the whole playerbase as trash. I am labelling you as trash. Right now, right here, in that ludicrous example I have given, you are trash. Op clearly stated that he didn't want to 'carry' people and that he wants them to preform at the same level that he does: 110%. And that is fair. But you have to accept the fact that the implcation is still there: You are not preforming, you are trash, into the trash DF queue you go. And yes, of course you could phrase it much nicer: Normal and hardcore, or normal and expert queue. Still no one, not even OP would fulfill the dumb things I listed, despite all these things being valid and contributing to a faster run. As soon as someone fulfills that list everyone else needs to keep up or shut up. That is how such a system needs to work otherwise it would defeat the point.

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Originally Posted by Archaell

The funny thing about your post is that you actually wrote the most important piece in small letters. Having an option to surround yourself with likeminded people inside of DF is something that is missing.

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But it clearly is not. You just want to arbitrary rating system to make yourself feel better. If you really wanted to have a better experience you'd become active yourself and search for those people. It is not SE's duty to make sure your checklist is checked in the SF experience. The DF trades the convinience of having to look for people yourself against the chance of having to play with people who might or might not play well. This whole thread is so bizzar to me, considering the DF experience in XIV has been so much more agreeable than in other online games.

Also, I am still assuming you people talk about Expert Roulette and things like this. Yes, in Savage and Ex primals there should be certain standarts.. and guess what, people actually use the party finder for that.

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Originally Posted by Seraphix2407

Someone is clearly butthurt. QUOTE anyone who say we need those standars. We only want decent gameplay. Sorry to say but you have the toxic side of the community. Sad.

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Very first post. OP doesn't want 100% (and that includes ALL options you have in the game, including HQ food and pots along with perfect rotation), he wants 110%, something that can, as I assume, only be things outside of the game like decent latency and good hardware. If you find yourself being attackd by me simply exaggerating OPs position I am sorry. But I am neither butthurt nor toxic and I'd prefere you to not lable me as such.

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Originally Posted by Waterdeep

Very first post. OP doesn't want 100% (and that includes ALL options you have in the game, including HQ food and pots along with perfect rotation), he wants 110%, something that can, as I assume, only be things outside of the game like decent latency and good hardware. If you find yourself being attackd by me simply exaggerating OPs position I am sorry. But I am neither butthurt nor toxic and I'd prefere you to not lable me as such.

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Chech his post again and quote it.

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Originally Posted by Waterdeep

I am not labelling the whole playerbase as trash. I am labelling you as trash. Right now, right here, in that ludicrous example I have given, you are trash. Op clearly stated that he didn't want to 'carry' people and that he wants them to preform at the same level that he does: 110%. And that is fair. But you have to accept the fact that the implcation is still there: You are not preforming, you are trash, into the trash DF queue you go. And yes, of course you could phrase it much nicer: Normal and hardcore, or normal and expert queue. Still no one, not even OP would fulfill the dumb things I listed, despite all these things being valid and contributing to a faster run. As soon as someone fulfills that list everyone else needs to keep up or shut up. That is how such a system needs to work otherwise it would defeat the point.

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When you are setting impossible guidelines everybody is trash. Nobody is asking for impossible. The only thing being asked for are players to be focused on the game, to do their best and to learn how to play their job. Idk why is it hard to understand that players who try their best are being exploited by players who watch Netflix on the second monitor.

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Originally Posted by Waterdeep

But it clearly is not. You just want to arbitrary rating system to make yourself feel better. If you really wanted to have a better experience you'd become active yourself and search for those people. It is not SE's duty to make sure your checklist is checked in the SF experience. The DF trades the convinience of having to look for people yourself against the chance of having to play with people who might or might not play well. This whole thread is so bizzar to me, considering the DF experience in XIV has been so much more agreeable than in other online games.

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No, I just want players to be accountable for their play and doing their best to work with the rest of the group. With the mentality that anything in DF is allowed that is impossible so there must be some system to either make players want to do their best or a way to separate players who want to get carried from those who do try their best. Like "slow and easy" and "serious speedrun" options. What is the problem with that? Why couldn't players have a choice when it comes to groups DF puts them in? Of course in the perfect scenario the game would rank player's skill and put them in similar groups automatically. You can't argue that wouldn't be fair.

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Originally Posted by Waterdeep

Also, I am still assuming you people talk about Expert Roulette and things like this. Yes, in Savage and Ex primals there should be certain standarts.. and guess what, people actually use the party finder for that.

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Now you hit the true spot where the trash is - The Party Finder. I haven't seen something so broken in a while. In DF we have to live with people who don't care, nothing to do about it for now, in PF tho the community is complete rubbish. And nope I am not talking about skill. I am talking about selfish players who join parties above their experience. I had many posts about this recently. You join a group to practice last phase of Nidhogg etc. and players are dying in the phase 1 all the time... it is insane how much does the player base ignore the guidelines. Tho now when we are talking about this, I wonder how much does DF mentality carry to PF. The amount of kill groups who can't even get through half of the fight is mind-blowing... and it is really sad.

you know when yoshi p was tanking maps to show off aquapolis, he tauntingly barely did shit but unleash once every thirty seconds with no blood price, this wouldnt work in a group that even my casual self would play with. Point is youre a tank when you play a tank and carries are no longer a thing. Just kick the ice mages, its not worth your time or trouble, honestly. Play how i want, is cool if you go in as a full group, not so cool in df. and judging by recent cries about healers dpsing, its only going to get worse if you don't already

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Originally Posted by Seraphix2407

*snip*

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The only thing you were correct about is that "elitist" was a word created by players. So what? It still holds its meaning. People don't call people who try and help an "elitist." They call those who feel the need to insult and condescend others who do not play to their personal standards. These toxic people are of no value to the community. All they care about doing is insulting people for not being "oh so awesome" like they are. I see a lot of it in these forums. They like to tell people that unless they've done "this or that" in the game, their opinion doesn't matter.

So the next time you call someone an "idiot", "stupid" or any other ridiculous label while you're "trying to help them improve" and wonder why they don't listen to you, think about it.

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Originally Posted by Mattelot

So the next time you call someone an "idiot", "stupid" or any other ridiculous label while you're "trying to help them improve" and wonder why they don't listen to you, think about it.

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I don't call them an idiot. Check my previous post in other threads, you are more than welcome to do that. First of all, I've had sunshine stories, like the NIN who did 400 dps less than he should in bismarck for playing 85-90% optimaly. I told him in a nice way, at first he rejected because he heard people was parsing him. 2 days later he said, tell me your NIN friend and I'll talk to him, so they both went to my fc house and practiced rotation and opener. Guess what? Hes one of the good ninjas on my server and he always thank me for guiding him and my friend helping him as well.

When I help people first of all it depends on what they struggle with, mechanic or dps but lets talk about dps. If I see somethign wrong going on or someone parser them and they doing super low, I will tell them how to improve when to do cds , when to not use them etc. My first rule to get someones attention is to be nice to them and put yourself in their position then explain to them how they can deal with it.
Few have actually listened and taken advice, many however havent.

Also since you support bad play and it's fine to slack, imagine if everyone slacked everyday like these players in normal mode midas 4 (alex 8 normall)

http://i.imgur.com/lzWxq68.png

Yeah okay, totally fine to do. Good you see this is going somewhere right? Actually you know what. I'm going to stream the fights people wipe the most to then just post it in here and you can see how bad people are, while you sit and asume things I say or do.

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Originally Posted by Mattelot

The only thing you were correct about is that "elitist" was a word created by players. So what? It still holds its meaning.

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The word elitist inside of this community no longer holds its meaning.

The definition would be something like:

"Anyone who dares to say that players could learn how to press buttons in the correct order; a person who believes in trying your best to contribute even if it means doing a little bit of learning".

btw. I haven't seen many players who call others "idiot" or "stupid", but I have seen many who do not listen to advice no matter how hard you try to present it.

Seraphix, did you not say you actually wrote my name down for reference because I don't play how you think I should? Don't try backpedaling.

Archaeil, I don't fully agree but that's based on my observations. I've been in a bunch of threads where Elitists grasp at straws or resort to ad hominem in order to make themselves seem superior and try to pretend they're doing for the persons own good.

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Originally Posted by Mattelot

Seraphix, did you not say you actually wrote my name down for reference because I don't play how you think I should? Don't try backpedaling.

Archaeil, I don't fully agree but that's based on my observations. I've been in a bunch of threads where Elitists grasp at straws or resort to ad hominem in order to make themselves seem superior and try to pretend they're doing for the persons own good.

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No i didn't say anything to you, what you on about? Edit, that was someone else, so please stop putting words in my mouth , you just made yourself look even worse in front of everyone, stop with lies.

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

You think I'm joking but I've made a note of your name. Made a mnemonic even. "Mattelot not dps a lot" so it's easy to remember.

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Yeah, like I said earlier about you, toxic. Spreading lies and then trying to make me look shit. Good job sir. First making up things then saying lies, how worse can it be really? No wonder I give up on these forum sometimes, when people like you make up things.

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Originally Posted by Mattelot

So the next time you call someone an "idiot", "stupid" or any other ridiculous label while you're "trying to help them improve" and wonder why they don't listen to you, think about it.

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Before you make up things and then tell me things I've never told you. No wonder I can't take you serious anymore. Look at what you wrote.

Edit: I've been in threads where people like ''you'' make up things, like just now, which is extremely toxic. Second, trying to make me look bad but you just made yourself look bad, nah I'm done with you. Just another person I could actually discuss with but end up stopping, because you make up things.

I have been called an elitist for asking a bard "Is there any reason why you don't use the Wanderer's Minuet?" The word "elitist" is more often used incorrectly than correctly.

In most of my groups players rather disband rather than risk insulting someone for their performance, so I am more concerned with the players wanting to be carried and causing the disbands rather than true elitists who usually play with their static groups.

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Originally Posted by Archaell

I have been called an elitist for asking a bard "Is there any reason why you don't use the Wanderer's Minuet?" The word "elitist" is more often used incorrectly than correctly.

In most of my groups players rather disband rather than risk insulting someone for their performance, so I am more concerned with the players wanting to be carried and causing the disbands rather than true elitists who usually play with their static groups.

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"Elitist" and "punished" seem to be two of the most incorrectly used terms on this game. Even WoW wasn't as bad in regards to players purposely underperforming (if only because addons allowed players to have a form of dps meter to measure, as well as mechanics that get progressively harder to the point of unclearable if dps isn't up to snuff). FFXIV is missing both, but more importantly the latter; there's nothing holding dps accountable for in solo instances, dungeon play and MSQ trials so it more or less has to be a collective issue for a failure (Steps was posibly the only aversion to this, but that's it's own discussion)

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Originally Posted by Waterdeep

DF is part of the game, everyone is entitled to use it...

And you want to shut people out that don't preform well enough for your standarts? Well, by my standart you should be labelled as utter trash if you don't:

Seriously, stop taking yourself so god damn serious. This is a game. If you can not handle people taking a game less serious than you, don't play or surround yourself with likeminded people.

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Satire or not, this is exactly what I'm talking about; for some reason people just lose every sense of reasonable judgement and go to the extreme end of one side. No one (and I sincerely doubt anyone is) should be expecting people to play to the absolute maximum (especially when you yourself are not doing so, but i digress). What most of us want is that for everyone to play with consideration that they're partied with 3/7/23 other players and not perform less than if they were spamming a 150 potency skill over and over (because by that point, you're not auto attacking and you're not using weaponskills half the time, or missing the bare foundation of your class).

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Originally Posted by Mattelot

Archaell, I guess it depends on the sitiation. I am not saying you did but hypothetically, someone says "all I did was ask the guy..." But they leave out where they were nasty about it or added something that was condescending. How you ask or say something makes a big difference.

Elitists still exist and are trying to be smarter in hiding it by sprinkling sugar on themselves.

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Likewise on the other end, people who are giving you advice or telling you how to play is not necessarily being elitist or even condescending; at worst they just don't want you to waste theirs (and possibly the party's), especially if it's reoccuring over and over and there might really be a problem on your end because you might not fully understand how astral/umbral works and still use tranpose, or spam fire III for dps. If you always assume the worst out of everyone when they try to say something or give their perspective, that's entirely a problem on your end.

Archaell, I guess it depends on the sitiation. I am not saying you did but hypothetically, someone says "all I did was ask the guy..." But they leave out where they were nasty about it or added something that was condescending. How you ask or say something makes a big difference.

Elitists still exist and are trying to be smarter in hiding it by sprinkling sugar on themselves.

Sera, posting on my phone, I saw the white hair and got you mixed up. No need to type a novel about it.

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Originally Posted by alimdia

I know for a fact doing the 2.0 rotation on BLM still does more dmg than what most DF people can pull because they can't pay attention to what's in front of their screen.

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I hardly think that "most DF people" are failing as bad as you say. Come on now.

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Originally Posted by Mattelot

Archaell, I guess it depends on the sitiation. I am not saying you did but hypothetically, someone says "all I did was ask the guy..." But they leave out where they were nasty about it or added something that was condescending. How you ask or say something makes a big difference.

Elitists still exist and are trying to be smarter in hiding it by sprinkling sugar on themselves.

Sera, posting on my phone, I saw the white hair and got you mixed up. No need to type a novel about it.

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Your signature alone tells us about how you think about the situation and it is the exact problem in the community.

It just shows how nasty people will get just because you don't play how they want.

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Originally Posted by Mattelot

Sera, posting on my phone, I saw the white hair and got you mixed up. No need to type a novel about it.

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No need to be a a-hole about it either. If you want to discuss or argue againts me, you would first need to stop making up things. I wont take it back, you are toxic.

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Originally Posted by Mattelot

It just shows how nasty people will get just because you don't play how they want.

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Comes from the right person, am I right?

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Originally Posted by MaeIsMean

I hardly think that "most DF people" are failing as bad as you say. Come on now.

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Orly?

http://i.imgur.com/lzWxq68.png

It depends. If the person underperforms because his gear is crap, I won't say anything.

If it's an ice III spamming black mage or an auto-follow afk SCH, I'll initiate a vote kick.