They'd still have to clear normal mode first to unlock savage mode, though. Last I remember, the previous tier of heroic gear was enough for the next tier, just the intial gate of having to clear normal mode first to unlock heroic (the previous tier's heroic gear was only like 5 ilvls behind of the next tier's normal gear). As long as they don't repeat the current design where you needed gear from alexander normal AND eso/gordian (with a rather stingy weekly lock no less) gear to be able to finish the current savage tier.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renault
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10-06-2015, 11:27 AMRiceisNice
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10-06-2015, 11:46 AMBrian_
I don't even see what was wrong with Coil. I never understood the mentality behind the changes.
There is a lot of content in general. A lot of the people complaining that they didn't get to see the story of coil will also never get around to seeing much of XIV's other content, too. Why don't they complain that there are too many side-quests or classes / jobs. There is a lot of content there that many people will never experience because they don't have the time to grind to 60 on everything. That's how it works. To see the content, you need to commit some time and effort.
I don't know why that was the trigger for the changes that lead to the poor state of FFXIV's end-game right now. -
10-06-2015, 11:57 AMAlahraWhy was it a mess in WoW? I played, but almost never did any raiding. I remember folks complaining but I don't recall the exact problems with it, though from what little I can recall, I was always under the impression that the biggest problems with the shared lockouts in WoW had to do with one mode being a 25-man Raid and the other being a 10-man, which led guilds to end up with identity crises. That generally wouldn't really be the case in FFXIV since both raid sizes would still be the same (and many statics aren't even FC-affiliated).Quote:
Originally Posted by Renault
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10-06-2015, 11:59 AMRenaultI could accept that, sort of like how WoW does it now. The "Hard mode" gets released first, while savage gets released a week later, and then story a week after that.Quote:
Originally Posted by RiceisNice
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10-06-2015, 12:02 PMRenaultSimply put, you were stuck in a massive raid lockout. If you were a heroic raider, but wanted to help your friends raid some normals? You couldn't, you were locked to heroic. Did you already clared normal for the week and want to try out the harder heroic version to test the water? Nope, locked out! Get stuck on the 2nd or 3rd boss of the heroic raid and say "Hey, lets just go back and do the normal fights to get more gear"...Welp, no can do!Quote:
Originally Posted by Alahra
This has since been fixed, and their current system is honestly the promised land of raiding (Though the game as a whole is dull.) -
10-06-2015, 01:35 PMAlahraLuckily, FFXIV already has a system in place to deal with that sort of thing. While the two would share a lockout, they could allow Savage folks to go back and help people just like they can help other groups after they've already cleared for the week now. The lockout would be per turn and only enforced upon gaining loot. If you cleared the first floor of Savage, you could help someone with the first floor of Hard, with less rewards being given, just like now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renault
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10-06-2015, 03:18 PMIbi1. There was a small subset of raiders (who are already a small subset of the population) who complained that Final Coil wasn't challenging enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian_
2. SE seem to have taken it personally that Final Coil was cleared so quickly by the best of the best, and wanted to make sure that didn't happen again, even it meant alienating a much larger group. -
10-06-2015, 03:22 PMAshkendorYeah... honestly, I think they meant well. I really do. I think they were trying to accomodate the community but they went about things the wrong way. Normal was made too easy, and Savage was scaled far too high for there not to be a third difficulty for some middle ground. They left a sizeable portion of the raiding population with no real content to work on. I personally liked the difficulty level on FCoB. I don't think the fact that the very few hardcore elite had it cleared within days is a good reason to scale it that high.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibi
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10-06-2015, 05:13 PMBrian_
I wasn't referring to the difficulty of Savage. I actually think it's okay. With some minor changes, it'd be perfect (like changing wash away to not be RNG, changing ferrofluid tether colors based on polarities, etc.).
I was referring to the NM / Savage split. In my opinion, they don't need NM. Just a single difficulty was perfectly fine. If casuals can't experience the content, then too bad. They also won't be experiencing a lot of the other content this game has to offer. Should we change all that stuff, too?
What's more important is the content leading up to the end-game raid. They need proper mid-core content that presents a real path of progression. -
10-06-2015, 05:41 PMMaxDetroit3. A lot of more "casual" players were complaining that they wanted to experience the story of coil, but couldn't, because they were no "hardcore" raidersQuote:
Originally Posted by Ibi
- Never forget about the third one, for me, this was the major reason behind alex normal and savage mode. -
10-06-2015, 06:50 PMSilica-chanWhat kind of comparison is that supposed to be? There is a difference in just fate/levequest farming and beating an 8 man endgame raid just saying.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian_
Also NM / Savage split is fine. Why would it be a good to seal away a side story behind some hard end raid that only like 10-15% of the comunity will ever see? Not really worth the effort in creating it in the first place but thats just me. -
10-06-2015, 07:10 PMFynlar
"OMG SE give us some actual difficult endgame content in Heavensward plz"
SE: "Here you go"
"OMG SE this is too hard, all our statics are breaking WTF"
It's just yet another case of MMO players not knowing what they want. Not the first time it's happened and obviously won't be the last. -
10-06-2015, 07:25 PMBrian_The comparison is if they wanted to experience Coil, they could. They just didn't want to put in the time or effort. So, it's no different from not wanting to dump hours upon hours to level every class to 60 to experience their individual stories. In fact, I enjoyed certain class quests just as much as I enjoyed Coil's story.Quote:
Originally Posted by Silica-chan
Nothing is particularly difficult about raiding. It's all about investing time to learn your job and the fight.
The NM / Savage split is obviously not fine. Evidence? The massive drop off in raiders. If the incentives were fair, the drop off would not be this bad. In reality, it's the same fights with harder mechanics, no new story, and recolored gear. Hardly worth the hours needed to progress through it for anyone but the most hardcore. It's not a coincidence that tons of midcore groups have died.
That 10-15% of your community is also composed of some of your most devoted fans and players. These are the same players that stream your game, produce content based on your game, and are likely to be active in various communities surrounding your game. Is that not reason enough to create some content for them? It's not like they're ignoring the production of casual content. -
10-06-2015, 07:33 PMReihIt's not a misconception. It's called social perception. Unless the server I am in is way messed up this is an ugly truth you have to face with. I do understand that not all is black or white but when you hit this topic every single day with the same type of reactions from different people you have a pattern. And if you see this pattern repeating itself over and over... well you get the idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashkendor
The tools I mention do exist and are used for this kind of behavior I mentioned before by the same group you denominate raiders. So, my question is: are you really a raider? -
10-06-2015, 07:35 PMRenaultI think his response was because your post had NOTHING to do with the topic at hand. This is not a thread about parsers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reih
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10-06-2015, 07:47 PMReihMy Response is not about parsers at all, but how tools (which are not just parsers... can we skip to 2015 where people actually have more than that?) are used by the so called raiders to discriminate other people and then ask for empathy when there's non to show.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renault
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10-06-2015, 07:57 PMWelsper59Seriously. The OP makes valid points about the state of things, but this is honestly what happens when players have some relevant degree of influence towards the devs. As always, history repeats itself. Even in the case of WoW, the same thing happened. Until the end of WotLK, the devs rarely listened to the extremities with players when it came to combat difficulty. All they did was listen to positive feedback and worked with what players were doing to have fun, mechanics wise, at the time during TBC (which was the beginning of no CC parties with the emergence of AoE tanking thanks to Paladin tanks). Players complained about it being too easy for a long time... Bliz delivers difficulty in Cata instances when it launched, people start complaining it's too hard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fynlar
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10-06-2015, 08:07 PMRenaultSorry, but I just really don't see that in this game. Also, you're still in the wrong thread if that's what you're here to talk about.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reih
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10-06-2015, 08:18 PMReih
The fact that a third of the main post handles between raiders and non-raiders is part of this topic. Asking for empathy when wrapping things up is asking something from non-raiders towards raiders. Something is beign asked without really treating the problem... so unless there's a common ground for non-raiders and raiders alike, there's no way you can ask non-raiders to provide information on this topic.
Here's a shocker for you! This kind of tools affect game design in general. Specially for raiders. This does generate a gap between raiders and non-raiders. It even causes problems between raiders themselves as to who gets to stay or leave a static or even a FC. What's worse, the issues that want to be addressed in this post over end game raiding is flawed because Developers and Raiders get two different kinds of data. Devs won't rely on third party tools, they have to work with their own set of tools (some may share a functionality to track dps, positioning, timing, battle consistency and many other aspects of the content. But it's not their job to track what raiders track, performance. Well, at some point they do have to track that, but at a much broader audience than just raider. It will affect the iLv of the gear, the stats of the items that players have at their disposal. It is just stupid (for a lack of a better word) to try to address issues regarding end game design without considering the problem these tools represent to palyers regardless of demographic. -
10-06-2015, 10:13 PMhobostewI think we've reached the point where game developers are damned if they do and damned if they don't when it comes to pleasing the MMO community. In MoP they listened to the community again and the complaints started once more that everything was too easy. So we move over to WoD where they more or less took a chance at simply giving people what they thought would be fun and now the complaint has become "The developers aren't listening to us!". The community has become like a pack of angry nerd babies that can't be pleased no matter what any developer does.Quote:
Originally Posted by Welsper59
I'm pretty sure even if they go ahead and ease up on the difficulty of savage alex the raiding community won't be pleased. They'll just scream that everything is nerfed and that they want their challenge back. Now, should they ease up on the difficulty if the majority of raiders are having trouble with it? Probably. I just don't think it'll make the same people complain any less. -
10-06-2015, 10:37 PMRiceisNiceThis is where I have the problem with. Raids being too hard/exclusively only really applied to when it was SCoB (pre-nerfs) and the likes of T5 and T9 because of the design of specific mechanics that one person out of the 8 could cause a wipe for missing a spot check (I was previously on the side of "story content should not be exclusive to a playerbase" until the release of FCoB where they hit that middleground of difficulty). FCoB hit the middleline pretty nicely by having relatively harder gear checks, while mechanics where if you failed, made the fight all that much harder but not nessescarly blow up the entire party and forcing you to start over. It was also in FCoB's design that the eventual introduction of Echo and overgearing would allow for an easier clear (which again, is a lot more that can be said for pre-nerf SCoB, T5 and T9) so the content became more acessible over time without changing anything. It's around that content where the midcore players would be able to eventually clear it, while those who can't find a static can eventually DF it when it was opened to DF.Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxDetroit
Right now, we have normal mode which is tuned for DF from the start, and then savage mode where it demands both gear and the spotchecks so that you don't fail the mechanics (and honestly with some how of the mechanics are designed, they're in line of SCoB's design of "you mess up, everyone dies" that no amount of overgearing would help). The playerbase that this fails to hit is...the midcore players. I honestly think it's more of a case of Alexander normal being undertuned (they made it too easy and accessible to the general public, it's practically CT levels when FCoB levels would have been ideal) than savage being overtuned.
Which leads to this
While it's technically correct, it's capturing the entirely wrong context.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fynlar
It's not even a case of not knowing what people want, it's more on the case that the developers have overlooked on specific details and overshot what was desired. They might've thought FCoB was too easy because the top groups cleared it within the first few weeks, so they'd want to pump the next content to the point to avoid that (which means requiring gear from within the same tier of raiding on the previous floor), possibly ignoring the clear rates that was present after echo had been introduced. So again, now you have a raid that is tuned for DF and tuned for high end players, nothing is hitting the middle ground like FCoB had previously did -
10-06-2015, 10:47 PMHorseBootsAs a raider myself I would have no problem with adjusting the latter half of Savage Alexander. Literally everyone I know have had nothing but complaints to say about it even after clearing A3S.Quote:
Originally Posted by hobostew
It's needs a fairly large amount of fat chewed off that has no reason to be there. I'm fine with hard content. Outside of T7 I had no issue with the difficulty of SCoB which pretty everyone agrees was far more difficult than both BCoB and FCoB. But not only is the latter half of Alexander way harder than it really needs to be, the fight's themselves are not *fun*.
I'm totally cool with dying over and over due to failure to preform a mechanic on my own or from one of my static members. I'm not cool with doing the mechanic only for the server to refuse agree with my team or to be thrown a hand that I have no chance of winning with.
I can't count the amount of times tethers just didn't pick up, or digititus didn't pass "even though I was in the right spot on my screen!" Or my personal favorite, having 6 out of the 8 party members be thrown to the same corner of the arena, including the digititus'd members and just being screwed over.
The latter half of Alexander are not just hard fights, they are bad fights. Poorly optimized messes of mechanics on top of mechanics, and honestly, I expected better from Square than this. -
10-06-2015, 10:57 PMStanelisExcept a content isn't good or bad just because it is easy or hard. Being hard isn't the only factor which will make the content interesting or fun.Quote:
"OMG SE give us some actual difficult endgame content in Heavensward plz"
SE: "Here you go"
"OMG SE this is too hard, all our statics are breaking WTF"
It's just yet another case of MMO players not knowing what they want. Not the first time it's happened and obviously won't be the last.
If that was the case, an easy/hard game would always be good/bad. What matter is for the content to be well designed, entertaining and fun.
Alexander is a case where even the easy encounters (normal mode) are bad because plain dull and boring. And guess what, in savage mode, they are still dull and boring, only harder. There is no miracle here. It is another case of cheap and poorly designed content. -
10-07-2015, 12:08 AMIbiMore accurately:Quote:
Originally Posted by Fynlar
Top few percent of raiders: "OMG SE give us some actual difficult endgame content in Heavensward plz"
Vast majority of raiders: Not saying anything, because they're fine with the difficulty where it is.
SE: "Here you go"
Top few percent of raiders: Not saying anything, because they're fine with the difficulty where it is.
Vast majority of raiders: "OMG SE this is too hard, all our statics are breaking WTF"
Coil requires seven people of suitably aptitude with convenient availability. Leveling every class to 60 and experiencing their individual stories can be done without ever talking to another person.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian_
Coil requires some level of aptitude, reaction speed, and ability to function under pressure that is, quite frankly, beyond some of the players of this game, and no amount of time or effort is going to get them to the point where they can perform as the necessary level. Leveling every class to 60 and experiencing their story lines can be done, by design, by players at any level of aptitude.
Are you really incapable of seeing that these two things are night and day? -
10-07-2015, 12:58 AMzosiadon't post if you're not going to read the OP. Your opinion is misinformed and garbage until you get that raiders are not some unified cabal of elite snobby players. There are a wide range of skills and opinions among raiders and your statement just paint in broad strokes. It's like saying all casual players hate raiding because a few of them on these forums complain about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fynlar
What is this? A twisted version of the no true scottsman fallacy? Can you only be a raider if you're a jerk that discriminates with a parser? Parsers are an amazing tool to help figure out how well your performing. Parsers are not going any where, especially while enrage timers are a thing in this game. Best to get over it because people are not going to stop using them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reih
We have already told you that it's just a few bad apples in a bunch and I am sorry you find it offensive that no one wants to play with bad players. You're literally defending a sisyphus styled point since parsers are a standard in most MMOs.
This is the point that a lot of casual players here are not understanding. This very small % of the player base also helps to bring in many new customers with streaming and creating 3rd party content about this game like lore videos and strategy guides etc etc. Alienating that small % might risk losing a lot of the more influential fan base.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian_
One jerk raider with tools =/= entire raiding community is a jerk with tools. You're making a straw man to dismiss an entire community and the feedback we are trying to provide. It's a misinformed opinion and you should rethink it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reih
You're putting the cart before the horse. It's not these tools that influence game design, these tools emerged because of game design. How many people would use parsers if dps checks were not a concept in this mmo? The number of 3rd party app users would diminish greatly if there was no need for them. The dev team made content that encourage 3rd party app use, I would say you really have that idea backwards.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reih
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10-07-2015, 01:43 AMReih
How many raiding groups do you know that don't have at least a person using a parser? (and there are other tools to compare server-wide performance of player base, but I'll stick to the parser that seems to be the only example given).
The data pushed by a "parser" compared to data gathered by developers is not the same. This affects greatly how end game content is designed and what raiders expect to have. I think this game should be more focused on gameplay over raw numerical data which can be pointed to a score.
The means to gauge a player are not really built into this game and it may be by design. This MMO is not every other MMO there is with a parser. If players want a parser and stereotype this MMO fine. I think it's wise to drive away players from those ideas.
Otherwise if they were to be introduced in this game, my advice to SE is to also make quests/tutorials available to players so they can learn how to use rotations and other mechanics of the game. -
10-07-2015, 01:52 AMzosiaGo watch the world 1st clear video for a4s and see how the team almost dies to enrage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reih
Almost every time a team gets a savage boss down for the 1st time, it's usually as the enrage move is in the midst of casting. Exactly how does a team get around content like that without knowing how well they perform? Please tell me, how do you know if your performance is good enough to keep trying on a boss?
Unless SE makes an in-game parser, which they haven't and probably won't, how would you know if you are under-performing? Also, why does it matter if SE uses their own in-house parser or they use ACT? You don't think SE is competent enough to know their own development environment and the influence of ACT?
At the end of the day, knowledge is power. Some people abusively wield power and other use it responsibly, it's the way of the world bub. -
10-07-2015, 01:54 AMIbiUntil SE ceases to make every progression fight a tightly-tuned DPS check, the bold statement is simply not true.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reih
It's on them to make that change. As long as you need people performing their rotation and doing damage near optimally, people are going to care about what numbers the other members of their group is putting out.
Once that's in place, it's almost impossible to stop that trickling down to non-progression content because they have some use there also. And once they're being used there, you're going to get people using them inappropriately. -
10-07-2015, 02:00 AMReih
Am I missing something? Where do you see this parser on the client? Is it available to PS3/PS4 players? Hint: It's not there, it's made available by third party software. So the necessity comes from those that use it. It's not something that every person has access to. I do know the way scripted battles work require optimization from the players but it's time SE moved away from that. The real reason behind scripted battles is that SE is able to plan how a battle will look, which is how they have been pushing graphics all this time on FF14. But for this game SE needs to be able to teach the minimum of these rotations/mechanics or move away to another way to do battles (Hint: AI).
One of the things that really has me curious is how they are going to rework the controller crossbars with suggested actions to follow up what you do. But again that'd be applied only to people that play with controllers. That would exclude keyboard/mouse users.
To reply to zosia: The way SE is bound to gather data on their own servers and the way ACT gathers data is not the same model. They are skilled people in both projects, but because of software design and engineering SE is bound by other rules than ACT. Not a question of skill. -
10-07-2015, 02:25 AMzosiaSo? It's a 3rd party program? Unless a static is 8/8 ps3/ps4 players, I don't see how your point holds up. It only takes one person in a static to give the other seven people performance information. If anything, we should encourage SE to give us an official parser, that way ps3 and ps4 players can have it too. Why are you so offended by parsers? It's literally a tool to get information. Yes, there are players who misuse them, but people misuse stuff all the time irl and we don't outlaw the objects of misuse. If anything, we outlaw the actions of misuse. Such as drunk driving. We don't outlaw cars, we outlaw drunk driving. We should have rules against parser harassment and in a sense, we do have rules against that type of harassment.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reih
Players can be reported for parser harassment. I don't know what else you really want. Parsers are here. People use them. The casual community is afraid of parser abuse, but it's reportable. I don't get it, I really don't.
If you want to talk about some of the topics relevant to this thread, great. Otherwise I am not going to continue to speak about parsers with you. This thread is not meant to turn into a 3rd party app debate.
Irrelevant. We don't know ANYTHING about their development process and it is pointless to talk about this hypothetical point since it has no real practical impact on the players. Why would it matter if the dev team had different dps numbers than players?Quote:
Originally Posted by Reih
They probably don't tune fights around what their parser displays anyways. They probably tune fight around average ilvl of the raid team testing the fight. -
10-07-2015, 02:38 AMReih
I'm not offended by parsers at all. By all means, if SE introduces one for everyone I'm fine with it. They even show that kind of data after a PvP match. I'm offended how they are used by a smaller community to discriminate others. While it is reportable through a game, you can't really tell what is happening over a TeamSpeak session for example. A report is effective if a game master can find clues about that harassment. Otherwise it's just nonsense to them and to everyone. People learn to avoid in-game information about parsers. So it may, or may not be reportable. It's case dependent. And yes, for me it's relevant that end-game raids and other content is done in a fair way and not in a way where out of control data is fed to SE. This will only create a greater gap over time.
Someone needs to go back to Software Engineering and Design 101 again.... -
10-07-2015, 02:48 AMzosiaNo, I need to go back to crystal ball reading 101 since you seem to know exactly how SE develops these fights and I don't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reih
Where is the guide on the web I can read about how SE collects data? You seem to know so well, thats why I ask.
YOUR ENTIRE ARGUMENT IS BASED ON AN ASSUMPTION ABOUT HOW SE TUNE THEIR FIGHTS!!!!
Do you really think so poorly of SE that they would not test their fights without considering ACT or other 3rd party apps? That is asinine. The dev team working on this MMO are paid programming professionals, do you think they are so incompetent that they don't take all these factors into consideration.
Someone needs to go back to logic 101. -
10-07-2015, 03:06 AMOdettSE somewhat does this with stuff like building a class quest around the Flash ability, and if people bothered to read the CNJ quests, the devs themselves are telling you that full-time healing is folly. We already get skills at a very slow pace, and the devs expect you to have a level of intelligence where you can read your new skill and learn how to use them correctly. I've made this point before, but the game cannot hold your hand for everything that you do. It takes less than 10 minutes to head over to the Classes and Jobs subsection of the forums and read a guide about your job.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reih
The fact that some people are so adamant against having an easier way to read the combat log and prefer to exercise willful ignorance about how players are performing is honestly beyond me. I get it, parsers can lead to abuse, but so can many other things in this game that are already implemented (just look at emotes). Point is, jerks are going to be jerks regardless of what tools you give them. By no means will they be a magical cure to the community, because as others have said, bads will be bads, but it would allow players who want to improve and work on their numbers a much easier way to do so, as well as also show some players that think they're doing good, that they're not performing as well as they think. -
10-07-2015, 03:17 AMReih
And here is my point. You are at the end still a raider. Asking for empathy from non-raiders and trying to bring a third of your main post to non-raiders so they understand your point of view and then bash on them! BRAVO!
Whichever development paradigm (Agile, Iterative, Predictive, Waterfall, and so on and on....) they chose to use for this project it's bound by rules they have to set for a project. It requires more than just programmers to write code. It's not something you see on a crystal ball, it's something you go by when developing projects, specially at this scale. It's something you plan for years not over a few days by the necessity of a third party app. It's logic 101 for you.
Anyway, I'm off from this topic as it is flawed from the very beginning. No point to try to reason and fix problems if there's no will to learn and understand what you asked for. Do you even know what you want? -
10-07-2015, 03:25 AMzosiaI am sorry if pointing out your argument rest on faulty assumptions is considers a "bash." Also, you made the programming 101 comment first. If you're going to throw stones, don't expect to not have one flung at you in return. I never said they develop content over 3rd party apps, I said they take them into consideration. L2read brah. Throwing in some programming jargon does not make you look smarter, google searches can give anyone that ammo. You still don't know what method they use or what factors they consider as a dev team. You are just making assumption after assumption. That's a weak foundation to support any argument.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reih
You came into this thread painting an ENTIRE game population as bad and exclusionary.
Even in this final statement you equate raider to being bad person. You have missed the entire point, completely!
Allow me to do something that you seem to not be able to understand.
I disagree with your point of view. I will not pass judgement on you for it, I have no place of authority to do so. You're a valid player of this game, just as I am. I tried my best to address your points, but you don't seem willing to meet half way. I will CHOOSE to agree to disagree with you. I am also sorry for offending you.
You see how easy that was? Do you see how easy it is not to paint in broad strokes and treat you like a human being? Why can't you do the same for raiders? You have to drag me into an argument about an off-topic point, upset me with a satirical comment, then try to prove your point after provoking me? Nice bait and switch and I should have seen it coming.
Thanks for leaving this thread, you have done nothing constructive here. -
10-07-2015, 04:29 AMAshkendorThis may be a startling revelation here, but the fact that I engage in endgame raid content with the intent to progress makes me a raider. My static isn't the best (we are just starting A3S) but we're definitely not the worst that's out there, either. Either way, I'm not here to judge people for how they choose to play the game. If people don't want to learn the optimal gear setup or rotation for their class, okay, that's their choice. To some people, glamour is endgame and RP is where it's at. There's room for all of us here. The thing is, I also have the choice of the type of people I wish to raid with. I don't have a problem helping people if I know up front that's what I'm doing, but I also don't play this game to carry. I give my all in a raid, and I expect the same of the other seven people.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reih
To that end, I run a parse. Booting up a parsing program doesn't magically turn me into a rage-fueled lunatic that kicks people from Expert Roulette for doing under 1000 DPS. I use that parse to better myself and to help people that ask me to help them better themselves, as well as helping to ferret out problems when a raid group I'm in isn't clearing content. I don't use it to confront randies in dungeons for underperforming. I might roll my eyes a bit and buckle down for a slow run, but ultimately, DF is what it is and I know that. TL;DR - being a raider doesn't mean you have to be an elitist prick. You can quite easily be one without being the other.
Yeah, that's why I just never bothered replying to her until now. We can argue until we're blue in the face that not all of us are out to get every single person that we perceive as a "non-raider" but the viewpoint she's portraying is honestly just so irrational that nothing you or I or anyone says is going to change her mind. She's going to go right on thinking every last person that she categorizes as "raider" is out to make "non-raiders" feel bad about how they play the game. Or something. I'm not even really sure at this point.Quote:
Originally Posted by zosia
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10-07-2015, 04:40 AMzosiaYeah, I kind of lost track of their point as well. It went from raiders and parser abuse to something about data and what SE/Raiders have access to. What else can we really do? It's like half of the replies to this thread have been exactly the kind of stuff I was trying to avoid. I even find myself getting angrier every day at this thread. I started off wanting to be so diplomatic and now I find that to be difficult.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashkendor
The community and dev team have been silent about alex savage and our concerns. The only sort of attention we seem to get is from players hell bent on proving that everything about us is wrong in some fashion or another. -
10-07-2015, 05:01 AMShanaShirayukiSorry, but your entire argument was flawed the moment you lumped ALL raiders into 'elitist' jackasses who only use parsers to belittle others. At this point you're only making yourself seem like the jackasses you so adamantly criticize.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reih
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10-07-2015, 05:03 AMwhiskeybravo
IDK about all that, but I'd pay up to $20 for an official PS4 parse app. Just give me a little counter about size of the gil counter, and maybe the option for a dps report after an instance. I'd be set
Regarding the OP - I see statics falling apart all over. Hasn't happened to our group, but I'm sure if we keep hitting the wall we are hitting it's only a matter of time. I really enjoy raiding, even if the content is too hard for me and 7 other people to beat. So I'm not sure where I fall on the scale. Personally, I get the impression the way a lot of people feel about savage is about how I feel about leveling crafting 50-60. I just don't want to do it, the mats take forever to gather, new skills I don't understand (half the skills are skills we already had...), seemingly ridiculous difficulty/quality levels. I've just lost so much interest in it. So maybe it's like that. But for me, raiding is the only thing I enjoy in game at the moment. Even if we are failing lol -
10-07-2015, 09:31 AMFynlarI did. I don't necessarily agree with all of it. Like I said, I agree more with the post he quoted rather than his post itself.Quote:
don't post if you're not going to read the OP.
Unless you're really just trying to say "don't post if you don't agree with the OP" to which I will kindly say, ahahahaha, no.