PLD dps needs to be buffed, current dps a joke

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

Are you seriously trying so hard to exaggerate the physical mitigation issue? Foresight? youserious? I mean REALLY? Foresight? Arguably the WORST CD IN THE GAME.

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It's actually really good for its niche (physical damage). At ilvl190 left-side, it susses out so something like 14.1% physical damage reduction, and keeps going up as ilvl increases.

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Originally Posted by Adrasteia

It's actually really good for its niche (physical damage). At ilvl190 left-side, it susses out so something like 14.1% physical damage reduction, and keeps going up as ilvl increases.

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You have an extra 10% there

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Originally Posted by Adrasteia

It's actually really good for its niche (physical damage). At ilvl190 left-side, it susses out so something like 14.1% physical damage reduction, and keeps going up as ilvl increases.

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So do all the other cooldowns. It is still the worst tank CD thus far. Bloodbath is even better.

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Originally Posted by NFaelivrin

A thing that could help PLD's shield oath DPS (sword oath is fine) would be adjusting shield swipe to be an actual DPS gain once more, either a flat potency increase or something like "ignores the damage penalty from shield oath" since its, well, a shield attack. Using shield swipe is fun but at the moment its only occasionally viable and only used for its TP restore.

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That's a nice idea. Shield Swipe really is only a TP saver for now and that's quite sad. Or maybe turn Shied Swipe into the start of a high-dps combo? Swipe -> RoH (gains its combo'ed potency and effect) -> RA (gains its combo'ed potency) -> Flash (becomes a 300 Potency AoE).

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Originally Posted by NFaelivrin

Also the only other thing both PLD and DRK need is a means to restore TP. Putting a TP restore on Tempered Will would probably be okay, and maybe letting, I dunno, Dark Arts Carve and Spit drain some TP would make it a more interesting skill than what it currently is.

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I'd rather not load TP recovery into Tempered Will. If we are to load TP recover onto something, I'd rather just have it loaded onto Shied Swipe. Each Shield Swipe recovers 40TP instead of consuming TP.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie-Amber

I main a drg and play pld rarely but in doing so parsing the two mt types dark and pld darks are superior like sure my pld full slaying accessory's but the dark I was parsing with was in full slaying too.

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Well done, now i see why you kept on talking about DPS DPS DPS on PLD. You main a DPS. Butt hurt DRG on top of it. Who made the numbers? You dont even have a lvl60 drk and warrior. Obviously you know NOTHING about what a tank is supposed to do. Tanking is primary, DPS is secondary. PLD has the highest physical mitigation and SHOULD be used when a boss has high physical attack. DRK has the highest MAGICALmitigation and SHOULD be used when a boss has high magical attack. A warrior while lacking in mitigation has awesome DPS to make up for it, making them the best OT. This argument is getting no where since you have no idea what you are talking about.

Here's some legit DPS comparison.
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...mparison-Video

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Originally Posted by Blueskyy

Here's some legit DPS comparison.
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...mparison-Video

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There are some real problems with the video besides being a dummy parse. The biggest being the PLD doesn't use RoH at all, and that it only compares dps in dps scenarios. In real tanking situations the 3 tanks probably won't be experiencing the same drop in dps.

http://www.killthehydra.com/wp-conte...-story-bro.jpg

Tempered Will could have Prevents Cast Interruptions added to it - the addition of job-specific spell casting abilities for PLD makes that seem appropriate.

PLD spells works separetely from their core - interrupts combos, delays the GCD cycle, etc etc. I think that added synergy between the GCD rotation and these spells would make them feel more integrated into their kit.

Just example: If Royal Authority had an added effect that gave a short duration (or a 1-and-done buff) Spell Speed boost to the PLD . Like, a lot of Spell Speed - enough to reduce the GCD for a spell by a significant amount. Would open up Stoneskin & Clemency as fourth hits in a RA combo.

In the right scenarios SS&Clem can do a lot, there's still the MP gate PLDs need to bypass, so adding a bridge that links their GCD core to Spells could make that flavor less penalizing.

I would still trade Divine Veil for War Drum or Phalanx.

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Originally Posted by Zfz

There are some real problems with the video. . . The biggest being the PLD doesn't use RoH at all. . .

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The warrior didn't use Storms Path (damage reduction), just Storms Eye (slashing debuff) because of the 20 potency loss. They were both doing non-optimal rotations as far as off tanking goes but I'm pretty sure the video was intending to show off something close to the maximum potential dps of the 3 tanking classes. There's nothing wrong with a dummy parse to show something like that.

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Originally Posted by Zfz

The biggest being the PLD doesn't use RoH at all.

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Okay, the only situation PLD will OT is if the fight is magical damage based. As such, RoH isn't optimal to use at all (irrelevant in mitigation and a DPS loss).

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Originally Posted by Gooner_iBluAirJGR

The warrior didn't use Storms Path (damage reduction), just Storms Eye (slashing debuff) because of the 20 potency loss.

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WAR wouldn't drop Storm's Eye for Storm's Path. They drop Butcher's Block for it, making it more of a 40 potency loss, not 20.

WAR didn't get esuna during pacifications, but it's not like they would get that in a raid scenario either since it is really low priority on the healers' list. Considering the length of the video, they lost 4 GCDs. I think it would hardly translate to 1% DPS loss at most. (I'm not counting the last pacification.

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Originally Posted by Xenosan

Tempered Will could have Prevents Cast Interruptions added to it - the addition of job-specific spell casting abilities for PLD makes that seem appropriate.

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I think that is a good idea. It adds value to an already insanely niche ability and fits with the conceptual theme of the ability or at least the name.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

Okay, the only situation PLD will OT is if the fight is magical damage based. As such, RoH isn't optimal to use at all (irrelevant in mitigation and a DPS loss).

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Which begs the question...why are we even comparing OT dps? We should be comparing MT dps because common sense suggests that tanks are balanced for while they are tanking. :(

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Originally Posted by Gooner_iBluAirJGR

I'm pretty sure the video was intending to show off something close to the maximum potential dps of the 3 tanking classes. There's nothing wrong with a dummy parse to show something like that.

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And people will soon (if they have not already) take the conclusions of that video out of context and say, dps for tanks are fine, and apply that conclusion to every argument involving tank dps, even for MTing.

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Originally Posted by Zfz

Which begs the question...why are we even comparing OT dps? We should be comparing MT dps because common sense suggests that tanks are balanced for while they are tanking. :(

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Because this thread isn't about comparing the dps of the three tanks. It's about a mediocre drg who doesn't know how to play pld crying that their pld dps in SwO is bad on a dummy.

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Originally Posted by Zfz

And people will soon (if they have not already) take the conclusions of that video out of context and say, dps for tanks are fine, and apply that conclusion to every argument involving tank dps, even for MTing.

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I think you'll find that Fell Cleave hits for 11k every time and that WAR is so OP you can bring 8 of them to anything and kill it immediately.

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Originally Posted by HoodRat

Because this thread isn't about comparing the dps of the three tanks. It's about a mediocre drg who doesn't know how to play pld crying that their pld dps in SwO is bad on a dummy.

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I'm glad i'm not the only one who thinks of this

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Originally Posted by Zfz

Which begs the question...why are we even comparing OT dps? We should be comparing MT dps because common sense suggests that tanks are balanced for while they are tanking. :(

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both are important functions, they should be balanced for both

I myself dont care that much about our dps as OT because frankly It Is far from behind bad.
I want a balance on dps as MT. Because paladin is really behind on this sector. We have absolutely nothing to remove the damage penalty of Shield oath.
Drk get their double stance war got unchained and Inner beast.
A very simple thing to add would BE that Shield swipe ignore damage penalty it makes sense and would BE design for improving dps as MT only. Would do great without being stupidly OP

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Originally Posted by Sandamar

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It's intended by SE to have DRK being the tank that output the most dps while tanking. DRK has only one utility spell and that is if there's no monk in your group. Paladin got stoneskin, divine veil, clemency and cover even if it's extremely situational. You even got a spell that refunds mana every 30s, and i've seen to many people who're crying over paladin dps but aint even using their entire toolkit. On A1 you have plenty of time to look at your team and put a stoneskin on one person marked. During the jump phase among the 3 paladin my group got, not a single one used divine veil after the oppressor jumped.

At this point if your group is not getting past the first three floors of Alexander your dps should just get good, tank dps is not the problem.

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Originally Posted by Croisciento

It's intended by SE to have DRK being the tank that output the most dps while tanking.

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Except numbers seem to say that it's not the case.

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Originally Posted by Sandamar

I want a balance on dps as MT. Because paladin is really behind on this sector. We have absolutely nothing to remove the damage penalty of Shield oath.
Drk get their double stance war got unchained and Inner beast.

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PLD doesn't deserve a single extra point of MT DPS as long as it has built-in passive mitigation and Hallowed Ground. If you want to be the most defensive tank then that's fine, that's your advantage. Your disadvantage is that you do less MT DPS. Deal with that, instead of complaining that a few fights that don't let you block make your entire skillset irrelevant and that you need buffs.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Except numbers seem to say that it's not the case.

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Well then those DRK do not know how to play then. My group is running a sub optimal tank comp, PLD and DRK. Tried this multiple times on a dummy and with the same ammount of str/vit DRK is easily above 100 dps with grit/darkside on. Then compared to a warrior only playing in defiance the result is the same except the dps difference is a lot smaller, thanks to that slashing debuff.

I've seen parses from many competent group on my server and the results are roughly the same but are often biased especially on A1 since not everyone is stance dancing the same way. Some people are still progressing, some people are putting WAR as MT etc.

Of course if you take a WAR that is stance dancing properly (as it should) it'll always be higher than a DRK even with the slashing debuff but that was not the subject.

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Originally Posted by Launched

Deal with that, instead of complaining that a few fights that don't let you block make your entire skillset irrelevant and that you need buffs.

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That's the issue with like 80% of the people on these forums since HW came out. Before the expansion there was only one support role, only two tanks and also only two healers. If you wanted to have an optimal group setup then you'd need to have all of tanks/healers in your group. There wasn't any fight that was "bad" for neither of these jobs because there wasn't any other alternative. With the introduction of new tank/healer jobs people fail to see that SE now made some fights easier/harder for certain classes but that doesn't mean any class needs a buff. This means diversity was introduced and groups now have to choose. If they want an overall better mitigation then they'll loose DPS. If they want to still have tanks doing a lot of DPS then they'll either need to choose beetween magic resistance (A1-A3 and A4 for the bombs) with a better dps while tanking or utility and a good physical mitigation (A2-A3 and A4 MT). No matter which comp you'll choose you'll always get a trade-off.

People are bitching about DPS because early clears rely heavily on that as people do not have a lot of gear, but when each dps will have their weapon and one or two esoteric pieces it'll no longer be a problem unless your DPS are garbage. People think balance is all about being as good as another class no matter which fight they are on. Diversity is having multiple options at your disposal each having their pros and cons.

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Originally Posted by Croisciento

Well then those DRK do not know how to play then.

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No, they don't, and you even said yourself why :

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Originally Posted by Croisciento

Of course if you take a WAR that is stance dancing properly (as it should) it'll always be higher than a DRK even with the slashing debuff but that was not the subject.

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That's the subject, in fact.

"Main tanking" is not "Staying in tank stance all the time". In a real fight, a good WAR will stance dance, and will do more damage. It's even designed to stance dance, otherwise, Wrath/Abandon wouldn't be converted. Stance dancing is not some fancy new meta that WARs only discovered now, it's included in the job.

The real problem between the three tanks is how the game is based on thresholds.
As long as you can survive a fight, all the additionnal mitigation is wasted, as long as the same party setup is required.

Ok, let's say PLD and DRK can survive much better than WAR (Which is questionable), can WAR survive enough to clear any content with the help of two healers and four DPS ? Yes.
Can WAR deal more damage than PLD or DRK (Even if it's not by THAT much) ? Yes

So, why pick another tank than WAR ?

If you want each tank to be on par, you have to focus on something else than survival. And each on a (useful) different thing (Damage, Healing, Buff, Debuff, etc...)

We're talking about progression right?

Any tank can stance dance properly when them and the healers are comfortable with the encouter. The main goal of progression is being able to survive and as a tank even as a warrior you wont output that much damage. At some point when the healers are comfortable with the instance, yourself and them will be able to dps but it'll be meaningless since you probably already killed it or about to. That's why the bonus DPS warrior brings is as useful as the extra mitigation you get with other classes. In fact it does only matter when the gear check is so tight you have to output the maximum dps and in that case yes warrior is more useful that any of the other two tanks.

But as people get gear, like I said earlier that extra dps will be as useful as the extra mitigation because at some point it should be easy enough to kill the boss before the enrage for 4 dps even with two paladin.

Moreover people should just stop whining about WAR as SE designed encounters to be killed without one. It's not like you'd need two months to beat A3 with a PLD/DRK setup heck there are plenty of group on my server which did A1/A2 without a war and it's only been three weeks.

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Originally Posted by Croisciento

That's why the bonus DPS warrior brings is as useful as the extra mitigation you get with other classes.

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Absolutely not. More DPS is not wasted. Clearing content will always be faster with better gear. If you can clear faster with a better geared PLD, you'll go even faster with an equally geared WAR.
The only exception is timed phases or bad transitions (But, as we saw in Coil, they tend to nerf content to remove this problem)

Moreso ! Clearing content faster means less damage taken overall, so the extra mitigation of PLD will even be less and less useful.

Yes, content will be doable with any tanks, but as gear progresses, the gap between WAR and PLD will only grow.

To be honest this is an utopia where every person in your group plays correctly their class. If i'd get a penny everytime I met someone in df/pf which was lacking I'd be rich. When content is irrelevant because of gear having 5% more dps is nothing. If every group needed to be setup in an optimal manner then in second coil you would only have get a monk on t8 and on final coil double monk all the way. Slightly better group dps was never something that made a job more "viable" compared to another. It's just relevant on content where people are by far undergeared.

You also seem to forget that when alexander savage will become farmable we'll get many people who cannot play their class properly and the extra mitigation will be useful. Even as a warrior I was often forced to switch to full vit because healers couldn't keep up in final coil. Moreover defiance is only effective when healed and at maximum HP so stance dancing as a warrior puts more effort on healers, there will probably be groups that'll prefer having an easier time at healing compared to having extra dps.

I'm not on A4 yet but by that time I'll get more gear so do the dps and my healers will most probably prefer having a MT that takes less damage and a DRK that can pickup a lot of magic damage into the face.

I haven't tested Alex Savage yet, but I'm pretty sure if you're often forced to switch full VIT as a WAR, I'll have to do it too as a PLD.
Their mitigation is actually close to each closer, especially for A1 and A4 where busters are magical, as their eHP.

Yes, you might not be able to stance dance. But a WAR in full Defiance will also do more DPS than a PLD in Shield Oath. In fact, it's where the gap is the biggest.

So sick of this whole dps thing. How about we ask for things like..shields getting a defense stat? Anyone who thinks a 1h sword should out damage a 2 handed axe/sword is playing the job for the wrong reasons. PLD is fine where it is now. Let's get on bigger issues like DRK's mp consumption while main tanking.

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Originally Posted by Jhett_Magnum

So sick of this whole dps thing. How about we ask for things like..shields getting a defense stat? Anyone who thinks a 1h sword should out damage a 2 handed axe/sword is playing the job for the wrong reasons. PLD is fine where it is now. Let's get on bigger issues like DRK's mp consumption while main tanking.

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There's a reason for DRK's massive threat gain-so you can spam more of your mp restoring weapon skill. If you really like to discuss on that, there are quite a number of DRK threads to voice your opinion. Seeing that this is a PLD thread, it's like going inside the girl's bathroom and complain for the absence of urinals.

Moving on, what i can suggest on this low dps while on MT is to normalize auto-attack damage while in tank stance and then apply a flat pot decrease on all weapon skills that aren't shield based or implement a future ability out of the global cooldown that is only usable on shield oath where it deals damage for every block.

TBH if we really want to make a worthwhile adjustment to PLD, take it's stances off the GCD and at the very least reduce if not eliminate the MP costs so stance dancing is possible for PLD like any other stance based job. I don't see any reason other jobs can freely hot potato between their offensive/defensive stances and PLD get's double penalized with GCD and roughly 1/6th total MP loss.

Yeah I never got the whole mp cost for shield oath and sword oath.

I could see if like DRK you could have them both up and sword oath would slowly drain mp.

Otherwise it doesn't make sense to have them use mp to activate.

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Originally Posted by Croisciento

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It's not a choice and there are no options. All of what you have said is a fallacy.

It's the same reason why there is no skill tree in this game or why game designers are increasingly wary of providing people false choices. At the end of the day, it's not a choice because people will min-max, calculate an optimal set-up, and stick to that. There will be no variety.

The concept within design is called strictly better. DRK and WAR right now are strictly better than PLD. Now, that wouldn't be the case if PLD provided something meaningful to raid content. The problem is they currently don't.

DRK and WAR provide quantifiable and meaningful DPS increases. DRK, WAR, and PLD all have no issue surviving through incoming damage in Savage so whatever situational survivability advantages PLD has is irrelevant.

Now, if you understood anything about tanking in this game, you would know the current meta and why this type of balance was doomed for failure. The idea has always been -- meet a survivability threshold, full DPS thereafter. Tanks have been hitting an eHP threshold and then stacking DPS stats in order to push their DPS. So now, you have 3 tanks that all can meet that threshold but 2 of them start from a different DPS baseline.

In other words, blatant imbalance.

So, you might say "well, it's just the top progression groups pushing really tight DPS checks."

And...? What people don't understand is unless there is a difference in learning curve, everything scales down proportionately when judging lesser players. A DRK in the hands of an exceptional player will perform exceptionally. A DRK in the hands of a good player will perform good. An exceptional DRK will out DPS a exceptional PLD. A good DRK will still out DPS a good PLD. You cannot balance around different levels of skill. You might say "well since everyone will have more gear, it shouldn't matter." No. Gear effects everyone equally. A DRK with an esoteric weapon will still out DPS a PLD with an esoteric weapon. "But DPS will be better geared now so tank DPS won't be as necessary." So... basically a PLD has to rely on their DPS carrying them to their clears? How is that balanced or acceptable?

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Originally Posted by Brian_

The idea has always been -- meet a survivability threshold, full DPS thereafter.

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Amen :)

That's why I suggested that PLD would need something to completely change the whole party setup.
PLD having more mitigation and healing so that you could replace one healer by another DPS.

And for DRK...perhaps some debuff were anyone hitting the same target as them could gain either MP or TP, so you could replace a "buffer" by another full DPS.
For example, you could add another effect to Sole Survivor (And increase its duration to 30s) :
For each hit the "Victim" takes, the attacker gains TP. Dark Arts Effect : The attacker gains MP instead of TP.

It would also make the skill interesting when you fight only one boss and help the DRK replenishes some MP when hit by only one target.

And you could have the WAR as the best tank-DPS, but requiring a setup with two healers and probably a BRD/MCH.

Of course, in Duty Finder, every tank would be viable. But when you want to make a real optimized PT, you'd have several setups at your disposal depending on what people wants to play.

so anyway not sure how these full dps plds do far better than I unless its a lie I was using goring 3 and Ra 3 not RoH combo at all.

My tests all single dummy solo as in only 1 dummy target no party no debuffs from another tank btw the way a parse should be done.

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Originally Posted by Brian_

basically a PLD has to rely on their DPS carrying them to their clears? How is that balanced or acceptable?

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It is acceptable because PLD doesn't rely as much on their healers to keep them alive as the other tanks. PLD requires the least healing as it has the highest mitigation AND effective healing received. Oh and enough supportive skills that can be powerful if utilized.

Guess what? EVERY class in the game relies on the rest of their group to "carry them to their clears"! WAR and DRK still need healers to heal them, and DPS still need a tank to keep the boss's arse exposed for rear and flank attacks. If everything was measured by how much DPS an individual could do, groups would end up with 7 DRGs and 1 healer.

PLD is the safest of the three tanks, it has the highest mitigation and is not lacking in ANY environment. PLD's mitigation is superb in physical and is great in magical damage. DRK is just better at magical but DRK is utter shit in physical. PLD brings so much utility that if a PLD knew how to use its utility healers will have PLENTY of time to DPS. As long as PLD has all that going for it, it should never, ever DPS as much as the other tanks. And PLD is hardly doing 8% less than a WAR going full DPS.

Also skill trees and different builds aren't "False Choices". They can be done in various ways where different builds CAN exist. You are probably looking at games that "failed" in their skill trees and cookie cutter builds that proved mathematically superior existed. But why not look at games that successfully made different builds possible?

I won't go into detail as it doesn't matter, but the point is some games succeeded at providing multiple builds for different classes.

WoW successfully had multiple builds per class, while some classes went down to cookie cutter builds per tree, some other classes had 2 or 3 viable builds per tree. I remember rogues having two subtlety builds and warriors having multiple arms and fury builds.

Aion for example had the Stigma stone builds. While every class had a couple of stigma skills that they couldn't live without, they still had 7 to 9 slots that they could build in freely. Defensive templars were as viable as offensive templars. Each brought something that had a place for. DPS clerics and defensive clerics also had their place. Sorcerers had buff builds that were viable and had burst builds that were also viable. Same with Spiritmasters' debuff builds and spirit builds.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

That's why I suggested that PLD would need something to completely change the whole party setup.

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The developers do not want to stray away from the fixed group setup of 2 tanks, 2 healers and 4 DPS, so hybrids are probably not gonna happen.

PLD already has enough mitigation and support to allow for healers to add more DPS. PLD is by far the easiest tank to heal as it receives the most effective healing.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie-Amber

so anyway not sure how these full dps plds do far better than I unless its a lie I was using goring 3 and Ra 3 not RoH combo at all.

My tests all single dummy solo as in only 1 dummy target no party no debuffs from another tank btw the way a parse should be done.

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Stop trying to play PLD like DRG. Your role is not to be the most DPS, it is to allow everyone to do their maximum DPS. You can help by providing more DPS and it was already proven that PLD is barely 6% lower than WAR (at ~940 vs ~1000). Not even much compared to the disparity between DRG (1300+) and BRD/MCH (~1100).

Classic Phoenica going "NONONO I R RIGHT" and then proceeding with ad hominems and completely wrong statements.

Just wait, some "proof" with no parses are going to come out showing how "balanced" everything is.

I'll just enjoy the trainwreck of posts with popcorn in hand.

In b4 ad hominem on this post.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

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A PLD will always deal less damage than a DRK or WAR given the same environment.

The extra DPS is always helpful.

A PLD will only situationally have better survivability than a DRK or WAR.

Of those situations, only a handful actually matter. And when I say matter, I mean that it actually changes how they need to be healed to a significant degree.

Notice the imbalance here?

If PLDs were ALWAYS the best tank for survivability in any situation, then fine. That's an actual trade-off. They aren't.

Also, like I said, the tanking meta is what it is. That PLD has more survivability doesn't matter because once it is beyond a certain threshold, it is dropped for more DPS anyways.

As for every class needing others to carry them, let's use the parse you cling to for dear life as an example.

WAR requires nothing.

PLD / DRK requires a dedicated TP bot and someone to keep the slashing debuff up.

Nevermind the blatantly obvious flaws in how it's a dummy parse of pure DPS which is completely disconnected from PLD MTing. Also disregard the fact that people love to claim PLDs have higher overall mitigation and comparable DPS but fail to mention that a PLD needs to stay in Sword Oath to achieve said DPS so they won't have higher overall eHP. Swap back to Shield Oath at the appropriate times you say? Well have fun breaking your combos, losing GCDs, and gimping your DPS for that duration. Nobody has posted a real comparison of their DPS in actual live environments. But, we have multiple top progression groups dropping PLDs because they just didn't do enough. Think about that.

Raiding is a team experience, obviously. But, what we're looking at is different amounts of carry. The reality is WARs and DRKs in the current end-game don't require drastically different healing than a PLD. Ask the groups that have switched. It's not like because they're using a DRK instead of a PLD, their SCH is now stuck full-time healing. No. Their SCH is still full-time DPSing during light damage phases outside of spot support and support healing when the damage starts ramping up. So in the end, you have negligible differences in actual healing with real differences in DPS.

Next, design. Skill trees can offer variety when it's used to give the same class different roles. But, within those roles, there is very little variety at the highest level. I stopped playing WoW shortly before WotLK. I was in a guild that was consistently alliance first or second for all major kills on one of the largest PvP servers. The only reason we weren't server first was the horde first guild was a top 10 guild in the world. Back when I played, there was 1 tanking build, 1 DPS build, and 1 PvP build for Warrior. Maybe years later, Blizzard would find better luck with their skill balance, but there were obvious imbalances through stretches of WoW's history that lead to cookie-cutter talent builds that robbed players of their choices. To deny the existence of imbalances during a game's infancy is unbelievably stupid. Balance is something you work towards and something very hard to achieve. Last I checked, HW is still pretty new and yet you'll have some obviously biased voices clinging to the idea that everything is fine.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

The developpers do not want to stray away from the fixed group setup of 2 tanks, 2 healers and 4 DPS, so hybrids are probably not gonna happen.

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CT2 and 3 want to have a word with you.
"Turn 2 enrage 3 healers" strat would also want to have a word, especially when that setup was deemed a brillant idea by the developpers themselves.

This is without counting the numerous "solo tank" and/or "solo heal" strats that were proved to be more efficient on most content.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

PLD already has enough mitigation and support to allow for healers to add more DPS. PLD is by far the easiest tank to heal as it receives the most effective healing.

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You realize that, before HW, WAR had a better overall mitigation (Hallowed Ground notwithstanding) than PLD and that the gap between Shield Oath and Defiance is a little 5% healing receiving ?
How is it by far ?

Its worth noting, too, that in the transition between a realm reborn and heavensward warrior got a reliable defensive off-gcd in raw intuition and another self-heal in equilibrium whereas PLD got sheltron, which would be amazing if the thing it was made for (physical tankbusters) existed in any meaningful way in savage.

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Originally Posted by NFaelivrin

Its worth noting, too, that in the transition between a realm reborn and heavensward warrior got a reliable defensive off-gcd in raw intuition and another self-heal in equilibrium whereas PLD got sheltron, which would be amazing if the thing it was made for (physical tankbusters) existed in any meaningful way in savage.

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Ok, it's nice to go towards the "right" end, but you can't dismiss Sheltron while still saying that Raw Intuition is good, since they have the same requirement, and ignoring Clemency.