Will you quit if this game becomes raid-centric?

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Originally Posted by Nikita

SE Forum Rep: Yoshida! Players are threatening to quit if FFXIV becomes raid-centric!!

Yoshida: How many?

SE Forum Rep: TENS of players!!!!

Yoshida: Oh noes.

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I'm sorry this was from a couple days ago but this be funny.

"They're threatening to leave by the dozens!"

Edit: shit I bumped it sorry

If it doesn't have the Open World feel at least they yes I will probably drop it. However, as people have implied "Instanced" does not necessarily mean raiding or dungeon. This could still be popped instances via an item or quest or be tied to Faction/Grand Company levequests. I'm sure someone already mentioned this but BCNM, ENM, KSNM, ISNM were all instanced. I have a feeling grand company leves will focus more on this as they are now becoming the main storyline. They talk about the Ifrit battle as a "Battle" which I interpret as being like a BCNM or similar to an Avatar fight in XI. And XI did in fact have a lot of Raid type content such as Dynamis, Limbus, Assault, Einherjar etc. So I can imagine more of those things this time and less HNMs like LoO, Vrtra, Fafnir, Nidhog, Jormy etc. which 75% of the population never fought anyhow. They will probably keep NMs along the caliber of Leaping Lizzy, Stray Mary, Mysticmaker (for all you BLMs out there ^^)

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Originally Posted by Synfrag

However, as people have implied "Instanced" does not necessarily mean raiding or dungeon. This could still be popped instances via an item or quest or be tied to Faction/Grand Company levequests.

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I did not have time to read entire topic, but I'm glad someone mentioned this. In fact, when I first heard about "instanced" content, I first thought about how behest is done. It's open air, everyone can watch, but only those that have quest can fight the mobs.

As for the general question: I'm heavly in favour of instancing, whethever it's dungeon raids or open-air raids. I did not play FFXI, but I read some about their "open" monsters and it's not something I'd like to live throu. Even more importantly it's not something I'm prepered to pay to live throu.

As for preferences, I'd say it best to keep balance: make some open-air instances and some dungeons with bosses. Which one to cocnentrate on first? To be honest, for me it would make little diffrence.

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Originally Posted by Azurymber

I love FFXIV but raiding gets boring since its just the same repetitive thing over and over and over again for months till a new one is released.

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Isn't grinding NM's the same deal? ... just without cutscenes and such? I guess they change locations on occasion. Locations that you've probably seen as often as the raid dungeons.

Am I not understanding this argument?

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Originally Posted by BlackHawkGS

Isn't grinding NM's the same deal? ... just without cutscenes and such? I guess they change locations on occasion. Locations that you've probably seen as often as the raid dungeons.

Am I not understanding this argument?

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Not really, as was mentioned before there is the competitiveness that you don't get in a dungeon. It's a lot like PvP in a sense where your heart starts racing in anticipation of the pop and beating everyone to the claim. This is a more vital element than most people assume. Sure a lot of people don't like it and my money is on the fact that those are also the people who do not enjoy PvP combat because they are not very successful in it. For those that often win a claim or win a PvP fight there is nothing better imo than that rush.

Lets face it anything you do in repetition gets boring, but, beating other people never does because it's rarely the same thing twice. This is in large part why multi-player FPS games are the most successful genre in video games. Making the same pull on the same boss 20 times doesn't get any better or any different even if it's challenging.

Personally I would rather get that adrenaline rush from PvP and my gear from a mix of things like Instanced fights, raids and open world NMs. In the end, I want the exhilaration that I have felt only in FFXI's NM and Mission systems and Aion's PvP system. Looking at those three things their is one commonality and that is consequences for failure. With NMs it's time wasted and jealousy of the winner. For missions it was simply the time and ramifications of usually having to start over another day with a different setup. For Aion's PvP it was the loss/gain of the then oh-so-valuable AP points. FFXI & WoW PvP are a joke (So is Aion's now). If all I lose is the durability on my equipment when I die that's not much consequence and therefore lends to sloppy play style.

I don't know if anyone else has noticed but Yoshida keeps mentioning PvP which makes me happy in my pants.

sorry for the tl;drs

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Originally Posted by BlackHawkGS

Isn't grinding NM's the same deal? ... just without cutscenes and such? I guess they change locations on occasion. Locations that you've probably seen as often as the raid dungeons.

Am I not understanding this argument?

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no,
Normal NMs that are time-oriented or random pop from mobs give players something to do that -takes time-
It also gives a sense of achievement when you kill and claim it.
This gives players a lot more to do in game.

HNMs are group-based so you usually get shout convos, ls convos, and often drama as well. But they help foritfy the endgame community unlike raids which separate them.
In a raid you go with a team from your ls, you enter the raid quickly, you focus on the raid. If things are timed everything is about the raid and there is little socialization. etc
With HNMs or open world gods you go to a zone with other linkshells, you compete with them but often talk in shouts or socialize with your ls in game or on voice-chat while you do it.

With raids you get people who stay in the city, warp to a raid, do the raid, warp back to main city
With open world content you have people running around zones, waiting at zone entrances (which often double and a good exp spot) etc.

Raids close the game and take out the feeling of a vast world.
Open world content spreads the population out, makes the world feel alive, and makes the world seem dynamic and active.

So no, grinding NMs is nothing like raids, because it involves competition and often social communication.
Whereas raids involve doing the same repetitive tactics over and over and over again
NOW: if they came out with randomized dungeon raids -that- might be interesting and less boring :p but would still mess up the open world feel

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Originally Posted by Synfrag

It's a lot like PvP in a sense where your heart starts racing in anticipation of the pop and beating everyone to the claim. This is a more vital element than most people assume. Sure a lot of people don't like it and my money is on the fact that those are also the people who do not enjoy PvP combat because they are not very successful in it. For those that often win a claim or win a PvP fight there is nothing better imo than that rush.

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If so, then I belive it would be best to take page from WoW and make separate serveres for instanced mobs (for those who hate this kind of so-called competition, like yours truly) and servers for completely open mobs, where people like you can get your rush. This way everyone would be happy... unless there would be very few people on some kind of servers.

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Originally Posted by Azurymber

no,
Normal NMs that are time-oriented or random pop from mobs give players something to do that -takes time-
It also gives a sense of achievement when you kill and claim it.
This gives players a lot more to do in game.

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Sorry, but I never could quite understand that kind of argument. About this being an achivment I mean. Claiming a monster does not make you good player; it makes you a player with much time to burn (which is not nessecerly a bad thing, in MMO especially) and a lucky one. Of course, I always avoided games like that like a plague, so maybe I'm just missing something.

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Originally Posted by Haji

If so, then I belive it would be best to take page from WoW and make separate serveres for instanced mobs (for those who hate this kind of so-called competition, like yours truly) and servers for completely open mobs, where people like you can get your rush. This way everyone would be happy... unless there would be very few people on some kind of servers.



Sorry, but I never could quite understand that kind of argument. About this being an achivment I mean. Claiming a monster does not make you good player; it makes you a player with much time to burn (which is not nessecerly a bad thing, in MMO especially) and a lucky one. Of course, I always avoided games like that like a plague, so maybe I'm just missing something.

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its based on competitive psychology. Winning rock paper scissors doesn't take skill or anything, but when someone wins their brain still generates pleasure from it just for winning.

edit: the part of our brain that controls that is kind of old and comes from the evolutionary process. Animals that could compete best mated the most and produced the most offspring. So being better than others would continue your gene pool and as such our brains developed to gain pleasure from being better + having more than others. I mean thats a realllllly simplistic explanation of it. But thats essentially why we enjoy competition like sports and stuff so much. And why we like to "win" or like to have more money than the others around us.

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Originally Posted by Haji

If so, then I belive it would be best to take page from WoW and make separate serveres for instanced mobs (for those who hate this kind of so-called competition, like yours truly) and servers for completely open mobs, where people like you can get your rush. This way everyone would be happy... unless there would be very few people on some kind of servers.

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Sure! I'd be ok with that if the "Instanced" mob drops a lesser version of an item. The reason things in this world hold value is because of the efforts needed to obtain them. Should a lazy person get a Lotus because it takes the same effort as a Honda? Then what is the value of a Lotus over a Honda? Before this is met with "It's a game not a job" it's a metaphor. I personally don't want to run the same instance as everyone else to get the same item when I could potentially do something more time consuming or difficult for something better because I am willing to put in that effort. It's all about balance for casual and hard core. Should putting in more effort yield better rewards? Absofreakinlutely it's the nature of everything.

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Originally Posted by Haji

Sorry, but I never could quite understand that kind of argument. About this being an achivment I mean. Claiming a monster does not make you good player; it makes you a player with much time to burn (which is not nessecerly a bad thing, in MMO especially) and a lucky one. Of course, I always avoided games like that like a plague, so maybe I'm just missing something.

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Yes you are missing something. And yes it quite often does make you a better player. Outsmarting and having better reaction time often means you perform better under pressure and in challenging situations. Not to mention the ability to potentially solo something too hard for your average player. Honestly and I am NOT taking a shot at you, usually players who do not like this are not good at it. I say this being one of those people in the past. As I got better it became more fun (and more rewarding) to play knowing that I at least had a chance.

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Originally Posted by Azurymber

its based on competitive psychology. Winning rock paper scissors doesn't take skill or anything, but when someone wins their brain still generates pleasure from it just for winning.

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That's an explanation why ones enjoy it (when one wins at least), not why this is an achivment. Personally I'd prefer challanges when I can use my skill rather than time and luck. For example, in the case of instanced bosses there is always a way to show off "hey, look, I'm great, I beat the boss first, barely week after it come out" without denying others the chance to enjoy content as well.

I guess my main problem is that sitting 3 hours doing nothing is not my idea of cooperation. And with a NM that only one person (grouo) can claim, I would be effectively denied part of the game's content (game I paid for and, once it's p2p, would pay monthly) becouse I would never have patiance for something like that.

@ Haji...honestly why cant there be both types of things? As long as what comes from them is not 1) super profitable or 2) way superior to other contents stuff....why the hell not?

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Originally Posted by Haji

That's an explanation why ones enjoy it (when one wins at least), not why this is an achivment. Personally I'd prefer challanges when I can use my skill rather than time and luck. For example, in the case of instanced bosses there is always a way to show off "hey, look, I'm great, I beat the boss first, barely week after it come out" without denying others the chance to enjoy content as well.

I guess my main problem is that sitting 3 hours doing nothing is not my idea of cooperation. And with a NM that only one person (grouo) can claim, I would be effectively denied part of the game's content (game I paid for and, once it's p2p, would pay monthly) becouse I would never have patiance for something like that.

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winning over someone else no matter how mundane the task will feel like an achievement and be considered by others to be an achievement IN GENERAL. In general means it applies to the average population and not every individual. however, its likely if you actually claimed leaping lizzy or valk emperor in ffxi you would have felt like it was an achievement.

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Originally Posted by Haji

That's an explanation why ones enjoy it (when one wins at least), not why this is an achivment. Personally I'd prefer challanges when I can use my skill rather than time and luck. For example, in the case of instanced bosses there is always a way to show off "hey, look, I'm great, I beat the boss first, barely week after it come out" without denying others the chance to enjoy content as well.

I guess my main problem is that sitting 3 hours doing nothing is not my idea of cooperation. And with a NM that only one person (grouo) can claim, I would be effectively denied part of the game's content (game I paid for and, once it's p2p, would pay monthly) becouse I would never have patiance for something like that.

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That is your perogative and I agree that there should be content everyone can enjoy. I also agree that it is not an "Achievement" or at least shouldn't be in anyone's eyes but your own. You shouldn't have to sit and wait for a spawn to get a piece of equipment that you NEED. But I should have the option to get a +1 version or a slightly better version if I want to invest the time right? Or should the additional time I can play be punished by the fact that I can do nothing more than any other player?

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Originally Posted by Synfrag

Sure! I'd be ok with that if the "Instanced" mob drops a lesser version of an item. The reason things in this world hold value is because of the efforts needed to obtain them.

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My idea was somewhat diffrent: do completely separate servers, like in WoW, where on one type of server there is nearly no open-world pvp, and the other, where pvp is always on. What you propose is to have 2 diffrent type of monsters, one "bigger" one "lesser" on the same server.

The reason for 2 diffrent servers is that there are 2 diffrent kinds of people. You probably would call them "hardcore" and "casual" I call them "competitive" and "cooperative". For me, it seems that people like you, priamrly want to compete, not in direct pvp, but in a kind of race. Ok, I think I can understand that. The problem is, that by doing so, you effectively deny usage of the NMs to people like me. People who just want to get a group and go do something, sometimes challanging, sometimes silly, whithout having to worry about others stealing their fun. On the other hand this is MMO, and, like all, we would like to have a clear shot at best gear.

I'll give here example from WoW. I was never in a hardcore guild (one could argue I wasn't good enough, for me it was just unwillingness to sink that much time), so I never really did the highest content and was kinda lagging behind others. On the other hand the ability to go and try any time I wanted was very important to me. There was a time, when I couldn't really get to the Lich King, but every week I tried and I had a load of fun, especially when 25 people where cooperating. In the kind of game where only one group can claim a monster I would be left with nothing to do, and would ultimately leave the game.

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Originally Posted by Zanfire

@ Haji...honestly why cant there be both types of things? As long as what comes from them is not 1) super profitable or 2) way superior to other contents stuff....why the hell not?

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Agreed, we don't need another Kraken Club or some godly weapon or item. Simply a little better is enough for me. It would keep prices down as few people would spend 1b gil on +1 extra int. It wouldn't become required for doing basic runs like endgame XI. They could simply copy the items add a +1 and save dev time too.

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Originally Posted by Haji

My idea was somewhat diffrent: do completely separate servers, like in WoW, where on one type of server there is nearly no open-world pvp, and the other, where pvp is always on. What you propose is to have 2 diffrent type of monsters, one "bigger" one "lesser" on the same server.

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Well I was thinking more one instanced and the other not but you are on the same line. I do like the idea of PvP and PvE servers but not "Instanced" servers and non. Besides it wouldn't work if transfers were allowed which is pretty crucial to an MMO.

I was just talked into joining WoW with some coworkers as FFXIV continues to evolve. I can honestly say, the only thing I like about it at all is Battlegrounds and even those are getting boring. Granted I have only made it to 55 in the week that I have been on so I don't know how endgame raiding is but I hear stories from my friends and it sounds pretty scattered in contrast to FFXI's endgame. What I mean by this is that just about any group setup with a tank and a healer can down most bosses.

WoW caters to people too much. Warping from one thing to the next and playing with people from entirely different servers destroys any and all sense of community or cooperation. The only challenges in the game now are the instances themselves as you no longer have to navigate the world. It's really sad actually.

In the one week of playing WoW I am usually at the top of the honor chart in a battleground and I'm not used to hotbar style mmos. I failed at PvP in Aion a lot of the time and wasn't some crazy HNM person in XI. I say this only to point out how diluted WoW is and how little people work to learn their class. Everything is pretty much a smash and grab. It would be a travesty to see FFXIV evolve this way. Lucky for us it's not possible to fully learn you role because SE hasn't fully learned it either lol

Edit: In summary as long as the content is challenging and people have to learn their places, use a strategy. As long as instances are unique, rewarding and challenging I have no problem with the majority of content dropping in them. If I start seeing people running every instance with a "LFG Anything 1/4 or 1/8" you can count me out.

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Originally Posted by Synfrag

Well I was thinking more one instanced and the other not but you are on the same line. I do like the idea of PvP and PvE servers but not "Instanced" servers and non. Besides it wouldn't work if transfers were allowed which is pretty crucial to an MMO.

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I was thinking here about allowing people to change the realm once such a system would be up, so they can decide (once) where they want to be. I will admit however that I don't know how transfers work in FFXIV, it was a matter of no importance for me. I only know about WoW, and there you have to pay (more or less equal to monthly fee) to change the server. If you can freely hop between servers, then you're right it would not work.

As for WoW. I don't nessecerly advocate having easy bosses for FFXIV (althought it's open to discussion how easy or difficult they are in WoW). What I'm advocating is the ability for everyone to try (and yes, fail, myltiple times if need be) whenever they choose, whitout the need to compete with others.

As a side note, WoW is not what it used to be. I remember watching first onyxia kill video, when on the start the creator said that his guild (40 people) spent whole 3 days trying to bring her down. Those were the days...

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Originally Posted by Synfrag

What I mean by this is that just about any group setup with a tank and a healer can down most bosses.

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This can be viewed in one of 2 ways: that the game is easy or that it is well balanced. Personally, if a game was made that of 10 classes only 4 are actaully usefull, while the rest are there just to be and take place, it would seem to me that the game is inbalanced.

Honest question: What is a 'raid'?

Is it one of those things where you don't have to hire a Korean bot to tag mobs all day? Because those are really fun!

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Originally Posted by Haji

This can be viewed in one of 2 ways: that the game is easy or that it is well balanced. Personally, if a game was made that of 10 classes only 4 are actaully usefull, while the rest are there just to be and take place, it would seem to me that the game is inbalanced.

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For WoW it's one thing seeing as you can only have one class per character. For FFXIV it should require specific builds. At least for 2/4 or 4/8 of the members. They may not have to be certain classes or jobs but they need to fill a role of a support, DD, Healer, Tank or specialized purpose. Trust me, it sucked having to scrap my Dark Knight in order to finish Promyvion Missions but in the end it added needed complexity to the fights in order to prevent them from being tank and spanks. I still feel guilty having 2 SAMs Zerg our airship fight, I wish we had done it ourselves.

Competition was the best part of FFXI endgame, in my opinion. If they remove competition, I'll have very little motivation to play. I'd take Dragon's Aery over instanced content any day of the week. I want to compete against other linkshells for claims/loot/etc. Even though many found DH challenging initially, pretty much everyone is running around with the same gear now. Even farming 5 chests in DH is becoming easy. Competition always kept me coming back in XI. Instanced content won't hold my attention for nearly as long.

Of course, that's just my view. I'm sure some hold the opposite view. I just think they should strike a balance between open world NMs and instanced NMs. It seems they are trying too hard to cater to casual players, perhaps at the expense of, for lack of a better term, 'hardcore' players.

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Originally Posted by Synfrag

Not really, as was mentioned before there is the competitiveness that you don't get in a dungeon. It's a lot like PvP in a sense where your heart starts racing in anticipation of the pop and beating everyone to the claim. This is a more vital element than most people assume. Sure a lot of people don't like it and my money is on the fact that those are also the people who do not enjoy PvP combat because they are not very successful in it. For those that often win a claim or win a PvP fight there is nothing better imo than that rush.

Lets face it anything you do in repetition gets boring, but, beating other people never does because it's rarely the same thing twice. This is in large part why multi-player FPS games are the most successful genre in video games. Making the same pull on the same boss 20 times doesn't get any better or any different even if it's challenging.

Personally I would rather get that adrenaline rush from PvP and my gear from a mix of things like Instanced fights, raids and open world NMs. In the end, I want the exhilaration that I have felt only in FFXI's NM and Mission systems and Aion's PvP system. Looking at those three things their is one commonality and that is consequences for failure. With NMs it's time wasted and jealousy of the winner. For missions it was simply the time and ramifications of usually having to start over another day with a different setup. For Aion's PvP it was the loss/gain of the then oh-so-valuable AP points. FFXI & WoW PvP are a joke (So is Aion's now). If all I lose is the durability on my equipment when I die that's not much consequence and therefore lends to sloppy play style.

I don't know if anyone else has noticed but Yoshida keeps mentioning PvP which makes me happy in my pants.

sorry for the tl;drs

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So, the rush here comes from who hits the monster first?

... well, I'm still not quite understanding it, lol. No offense! ^.^; Just trying to figure things out.

How are dungeons/raids the same thing twice? The FFXIV dungeon I just ran had multiple endings, different routes, multiple locations for the photocells to appear, and require you to work against the clock if you're low level and don't have the means to blow through it (it's actually multitudes more variable then other MMO dungeons I've played. That's one of the main reasons I'm supporting this developers take on them.)

Btw, let's do keep the argument civil here (this isn't directed at you as much as it is the thread as a whole.) We are all players with different playstyles. Let's respect that ^.^

My argument isn't that NM fights are dumb. I like them. I really hope they make more. But I'm still baffled on why they shouldn't be on an equal level as dungeons/raids.

Not at all. While it could happen in theory I dout they would take it that direction. More then likely raid/open-world content and battles are gonna be balanced out to appeal to both sides of taste.

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Originally Posted by Azurymber

So apparently they are going to be making most rare stuff come from raids, and are going to mess up the claim system (see http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...-world-content)

I'm assuming that would mean no sky or sea like areas, no HNM dragons, no roaming nms (whats to stop me from generating mass hate and kiting it away from those fighting it to grief them). etc.

So if this game becomes heavily focused on raids and doesn't have an expansive world like FFXI had, will you still play the game?

Note: This is not a troll or doom and gloom post. FFXI's expansive open world was one of the things that set it apart from other MMOs.

Personally I'd leave for tera or a game with better raids like the new Star Wars. I love FFXIV but raiding gets boring since its just the same repetitive thing over and over and over again for months till a new one is released.

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First let me start by saying that I don't know how you got the idea that raids will prevent them from adding different features or prevent them from providing u with rare drops by other means.


So you will quit this game if it becomes raid centric and go play another mmo that IS raid centric... Now days all u need to do is write that u want FFXI and all fanboys hit the like button without reading and realizing how dumb some things sound.

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Originally Posted by Onidemon

First let me start by saying that I don't know how you got the idea that raids will prevent them from adding different features or prevent them from providing u with rare drops by other means.


So you will quit this game if it becomes raid centric and go play another mmo that IS raid centric... Now days all u need to do is write that u want FFXI and all fanboys hit the like button without reading and realizing how dumb some things sound.

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most other MMOs are raid-centric yes. And i don't really like that. But i'd rather play a raid-centric game with story-based raids that are up to par to current standards than a raid-centric game where all you do is run through a cave and kill 2 bosses. The job system won't be done for about half a year so that means they can't really create a "great" raid for at least 6 months. And from whats been released so far i don't have overly high expectations.

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Originally Posted by Azurymber

most other MMOs are raid-centric yes. And i don't really like that. But i'd rather play a raid-centric game with story-based raids that are up to par to current standards than a raid-centric game where all you do is run through a cave and kill 2 bosses. The job system won't be done for about half a year so that means they can't really create a "great" raid for at least 6 months. And from whats been released so far i don't have overly high expectations.

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I love how no one from SE has said anything.

Probably worth adding to this thread that the notes for 1.19 include a new open world dungeon (albeit for low levels), the caravan escort thing which will take place out in the world and pave the way for hamlet defense which will undoubtedly also be open-world, and new non-instanced NMs (one of which, the coeurl, is entirely new). I'd say these are good signs they aren't abandoning open world content for a "raid or die" setup, although the fact that beastmen strongholds may be raid-only is a bit disappointing.

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Originally Posted by Azurymber

most other MMOs are raid-centric yes. And i don't really like that. But i'd rather play a raid-centric game with story-based raids that are up to par to current standards than a raid-centric game where all you do is run through a cave and kill 2 bosses. The job system won't be done for about half a year so that means they can't really create a "great" raid for at least 6 months. And from whats been released so far i don't have overly high expectations.

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Good thing you know that it won't be done for another 6 months...I guess I'm gonna ask you when patches will be ready in the future, not SE.

I am happy if everything is instance based, PVE should be about fun not about competition, if you want that, maybe try a PVP/Korean MMO.

That being said I would much prefer the raids to be kill all monsters within a zone to spawn the boss kinda of deal, than run through as quick as you can and defeat the boss.

The timer is retarded in these instances IMO and spoils the experience, especially if you get random muppets who die a lot.

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Originally Posted by Tsukino

Probably worth adding to this thread that the notes for 1.19 include a new open world dungeon (albeit for low levels), the caravan escort thing which will take place out in the world and pave the way for hamlet defense which will undoubtedly also be open-world, and new non-instanced NMs (one of which, the coeurl, is entirely new). I'd say these are good signs they aren't abandoning open world content for a "raid or die" setup, although the fact that beastmen strongholds may be raid-only is a bit disappointing.

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If you think ANYTHING in this game is anywhere close to worthy of the title NOTORIOUS MONSTER you are sorely mistaken.

NMs were meant to be something you rarely come across unless you're actually looking for it and a fun and rare treat to even fight much less get a drop from.

Not something that instantly repops with no cooldowns or placeholds that distributes items to anyone who can press X and start auto attacking.

And a public level~20 dungeon? What makes it public? What makes it any different than any other zone you go into like Nanawa Mines or Mun-Tuy Cellars...?

I'll tell you want is going to be different! It's going to have chests and NMs that instantly repop with no cooldowns or placeholds that distribute items to anyone who can press X and start auto attacking! HURRAY! KEEP THE BADDIES HAPPY!

With the new claim system unless it's impossible to attack someone else's "NM" then nothing will ever be "challenging" and "open world" content will be for the birds. Yoshi even said in that famitsu interview that raids will be the focus for rare gear.

And if by rare they mean a chest you can walk in an open every 5 minutes then this game is going no where.

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Originally Posted by Jinko

I am happy if everything is instance based, PVE should be about fun not about competition, if you want that, maybe try a PVP/Korean MMO.

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Well, I do agree that it should be about competition as well, but not competition against each other who win claims.
Competition can only be healthy if all players competing against others, or LSs in that case, compete under the same conditions, meaning, everyone should be able to at least attempt the Endgame Boss' and THEN skill will decide who is better, not who hits a button faster than another person.

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Originally Posted by Visch

If you think ANYTHING in this game is anywhere close to worthy of the title NOTORIOUS MONSTER you are sorely mistaken.

NMs were meant to be something you rarely come across unless you're actually looking for it and a fun and rare treat to even fight much less get a drop from.

Not something that instantly repops with no cooldowns or placeholds that distributes items to anyone who can press X and start auto attacking.

And a public level~20 dungeon? What makes it public? What makes it any different than any other zone you go into like Nanawa Mines or Mun-Tuy Cellars...?

I'll tell you want is going to be different! It's going to have chests and NMs that instantly repop with no cooldowns or placeholds that distribute items to anyone who can press X and start auto attacking! HURRAY! KEEP THE BADDIES HAPPY!

With the new claim system unless it's impossible to attack someone else's "NM" then nothing will ever be "challenging" and "open world" content will be for the birds. Yoshi even said in that famitsu interview that raids will be the focus for rare gear.

And if by rare they mean a chest you can walk in an open every 5 minutes then this game is going no where.

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God, get over it...the R50 dnugeon is the ONLY real endgame right now, so of course its re enterable every 5minutes, cause they want to keep people busy...once there is gonna be lots of endgame content to do at the same tmie, we will get more restrictions on how often we can do them...I'd like to post a picture of this sig I saw before, but I can't find it...

But it says something like this

"COMMON SENSE. IT'S SO RARE, IT'S A SPECIAL SKILL"

I can tell you obviously lack it, after reading your claiming and raid centric posts...

PS: The word notorious doesn't imply rare, low droprates or anything of that kind...just cause it was that way in XI, this doesn't have to be the case in XIV...but once again...common sense...once there is enough content to choose from, NMs will have higher respawn times, lower droprates etc anyway...but like I said, you lack it badly...so why even bother...

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Originally Posted by TirionCrey

Well, I do agree that it should be about competition as well, but not competition against each other who win claims.
Competition can only be healthy if all players competing against others, or LSs in that case, compete under the same conditions, meaning, everyone should be able to at least attempt the Endgame Boss' and THEN skill will decide who is better, not who hits a button faster than another person.

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How is claiming the mob not the same conditions? Did you fail the FCAT or are you just mad you never got a ridill?

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Originally Posted by TirionCrey

God, get over it...the R50 dnugeon is the ONLY real endgame right now, so of course its re enterable every 5minutes, cause they want to keep people busy...

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APPARENTLY IT'S NOT KEEPING ANYONE BUSY BECAUSE EVERYONE GOT ALL THE ITEMS THE FIRST WEEK. DO YOU PLAY THIS GAME? DO YOU READ? THAT IS THE WHOLE POINT OF THE ARGUMENT.

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Originally Posted by TirionCrey

once there is gonna be lots of endgame content to do at the same tmie, we will get more restrictions on how often we can do them...I'd like to post a picture of this sig I saw before, but I can't find it...

But it says something like this

"COMMON SENSE. IT'S SO RARE, IT'S A SPECIAL SKILL"

I can tell you obviously lack it, after reading your claiming and raid centric posts...

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No thanks. Get mad you didn't get ridill. You don't have common sense.

5 minute re-entry does not keep anyone busy. Just like instant repop NMs don't keep anyone busy.

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Originally Posted by Visch

If you think ANYTHING Yoshi even said in that famitsu interview that raids will be the focus for rare gear.

And if by rare they mean a chest you can walk in an open every 5 minutes then this game is going no where.

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FF11 had chest which you got your AF gear from which anyone could just walk in and press X (assuming they had started the quest), its hardly any different, besides we are talking low level anyway so whats the big deal, making a mountain out of a molehill much ?

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Originally Posted by Jinko

FF11 had chest which you got your AF gear from which anyone could just walk in and press X (assuming they had started the quest), its hardly any different, besides we are talking low level anyway so whats the big deal, making a mountain out of a molehill much ?

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Because in XI the chests weren't in 5 minute re-entry instances zone you could spam. And low level? The content at any level should be rewarding.

If 50 content isn't rewarding at 50 how is 75 content going to be rewarding at 75?

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Originally Posted by Visch

Because in XI the chests weren't in 5 minute re-entry instances zone you could spam. And low level? The content at any level should be rewarding.

If 50 content isn't rewarding at 50 how is 75 content going to be rewarding at 75?

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I duno dude, I dont' have a crystal ball..

Of course as has been pointed out you are evading the fact that this game doesn't have much content, so current content is on a timer suitable to the needs of the player base, as more content is made available there will be less need to spam the same instances over and over unless you are after a particular piece of gear and even then they may change the reentry timer in the future. We just don't know what changes they plan to make.

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Originally Posted by Visch

How is claiming the mob not the same conditions? Did you fail the FCAT or are you just mad you never got a ridill?

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It's not even worth arguing with you...I'll give you a comparison that you might be able to udnerstand with your lack of common sense.

Let's say there are 2 cooks getting ingredients in the mall. There is only one ingredient left, both need to cook their meal...what if the person, who is the worse cook grabs it first(claims), but the end result is worse than that of the other cook(kill takes long, people die etc), while the other cook would have gotten the meal done smoother and better(kills fast, people don't die etc)

These are not playung nuder the same conditions...same cnoditions would be BOTH get to cook the meal(kill the NM) and THEN the end result will be compared.

PS: I had a stupid Ridill you common sense lacking genius...I've been a KC/Ridill DRK...my old LS were among the best worldwide(Excellence), killed Fafhog dozens of times, we were among the first to kill pretty much all Sea Jailers etc...so don't give me that crap.

The claiming system have nothing to do with difficulty; it's just a scarcity system. If content is truly difficult, then what matters how often can you try? Limiting number of tries (either by timers - which I should point out I'm in favour of - or by competing - which I'm not in favour of- ) is marely a ploy to make content appear difficult by making it scarce.

As was pointed previously, let everyone try and the results speak for themselves instead of going for Luck'n'Lag gameplay where those 2 qualities decide who is 'pro' and who is 'casual (in the mind of 'pro' equal to nab)'.

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Originally Posted by TirionCrey

It's not even worth arguing with you...I'll give you a comparison that you might be able to udnerstand with your lack of common sense.

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I'll give you a comparison: 24 hour re-entry = busy for 6~month/a year, 5 minute re-entry = busy for a week. common sense HURRDURR

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Originally Posted by TirionCrey

Let's say there are 2 cooks getting ingredients in the mall. There is only one ingredient left, both need to cook their meal...what if the person, who is the worse cook grabs it first(claims), but the end result is worse than that of the other cook(kill takes long, people die etc), while the other cook would have gotten the meal done smoother and better(kills fast, people don't die etc)

These are not playung nuder the same conditions...same cnoditions would be BOTH get to cook the meal(kill the NM) and THEN the end result will be compared.

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This makes items rare and rewarding to get how? By letting everyone get them...? common sense HURRDURR

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Originally Posted by TirionCrey

PS: I had a stupid Ridill you common sense lacking genius...I've been a KC/Ridill DRK...my old LS were among the best worldwide(Excellence), killed Fafhog dozens of times, we were among the first to kill pretty much all Sea Jailers etc...so don't give me that crap.

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First to kill them after they raised level cap to 90? "Dozens..? LOL". If you were then why are you crying so hard?

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Originally Posted by Haji

let everyone try and the results speak for themselves

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The results have already spoken...? Everyone got everything in a week and doesn't play.

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Originally Posted by Visch

I'll give you a comparison: 24 hour re-entry = busy for 6~month/a year, 5 minute re-entry = busy for a week. common sense HURRDURR

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Sigh, you just don't get it do you ..

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Originally Posted by Visch

NMs were meant to be something you rarely come across unless you're actually looking for it and a fun and rare treat to even fight much less get a drop from.

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There are over 40 timed-pop NMs in FFXI, and even more than that which use a lottery system with placeholders. Most of them are up and hanging out all the time because their drops are crap and no one cares. They are hardly rare or unusual to come across in general, only some specific ones are.

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Originally Posted by Visch

Not something that instantly repops with no cooldowns or placeholds that distributes items to anyone who can press X and start auto attacking.

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At rank 40 (OK, I was 39 at the time) I've only managed to defeat two NMs solo, one of which I had to Bio II/Dia II and run away from for about half an hour. They're hardly as easy as auto-attacking to death. If they are at 50, then, well, so were the Valkurm Emperor and Mee Deggi. Also neither of them dropped anything, so they don't "distribute items" to everyone either (seen a lot of people talk about fighting them 10 times before getting what they wanted).

You're right about the lack of interesting pop conditions and short timers though. They're dumb.

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Originally Posted by Visch

And a public level~20 dungeon? What makes it public? What makes it any different than any other zone you go into like Nanawa Mines or Mun-Tuy Cellars...?

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Absolutely nothing, actually. Mun-Tuy and Nanawa are also "public dungeons." That's all it means.

In general what I meant was that they're adding content to the game that takes place in the open world. It's not endgame content, no, but the fact that they're not just instancing everything like some other games means there is hope for endgame open-world stuff too, in the future. That's all.