Yoshi-P: "If you want more engaging content, go play Ultimate"

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Originally Posted by Renathras

GD was right about one thing: It's a tangent argument that's irrelevant and started from him derailing the thread. Time to get back to the topic at hand.

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The topic at hand would appear to be something you have no experience with, yet you're calling out people left right and centre and acting like the law of the forums, congratulating people when they agree with you.

Get a grip.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

You're literally describing yourself my guy, but whatever. Tried to have a normal conversation, but it's not worth it I guess.

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No, you didn't.

This is the point you could say 'oh, my bad'. You didn't try to have a normal... /sigh

Whatever.

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Originally Posted by GaiusDrakon

he's a 12 year old kid who can't handle the fact that some players know more than him, its fine

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Ah, the casual who hasn't cleared PotD or BA or any raid is back to show us more how he doesn't know anything about the game. I'm still waiting for that marriage proposal, since you're stalking me so much.

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Originally Posted by Fable_Frost

The topic at hand would appear to be something you have no experience with, yet you're calling out people left right and centre and acting like the law of the forums, congratulating people when they agree with you.

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Who are you?

I have more experience with the content than you do, apparently.

You're calling out people and acting like the law of the forums. ("the law of the forums"? What's that even mean?)

I'm expressing agreement with people when I agree with them. That's a crime? Are we NOT supposed to agree with people? "congratulating"? What? o.O

I have more experience with this topic than you do, it seems.

It's really interesting seeing a bunch of people posting on users that have no clear data insisting that only they get to talk about something that would affect the entire playerbase...

EDIT:

But, this also isn't relevant.

Let's try getting back to relevance, before we got on this weird...tangent:

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Originally Posted by Renathras

I do agree that the problem has been misidentified and the Devs have taken several steps in the wrong directions. Off the top of my head:

1) Big spikes of damage + long downtimes in between them.

2) Tons of healing in healer oGCDs.

3) Tons of healer oGCDs in general.

4) Fights too movement focused (this isn't just a Healer issue; BLM is now more mobile than RDM because IT HAS TO BE)

5) Tons of healing from Tanks.

6) Tons of healing from DPS.

7) Tons of mitigation from DPS.

8) That MUCH of that healing and mitigation costs DPSers and Tanks nothing (special shout-out to Clemency and Vercure actually costing damage to use, though they're still not SUPER MP limited; contrast Curing Waltz, Phoenix, Nascent for no trade at all)

9) Little unavoidable damage/damage telegraphs largely being pass/fail mechanics that outright kill or inflict a debuff a Healer can do nothing about if failed.

10) The Healer Jobs are all (arguably) near identical; especially in their DPS kits, but many of the heals have a 1-to-1 or near 1-to-1, meaning if people don't like the way current Healer Jobs play, there's no alternative to them that isn't "play a DPS/Tank". Having the Healer Jobs be more distinct would greatly help with that since people would have an outlet for something different (this also isn't just a Healer issue; Tanks are suffering from this one in a lot of ways right now, too, and there's a thread in the Tank forum of people talking/complaining about how the Tanks all feel too similar.)

More on point 8, as it's the big culprit a lot of the time with the 1/0 Healer clears: A TON of this healing is "for free". Back in ARR/HW, if a PLD wanted to heal the party, they could. They had Cure 1 as a Cross-Class option. But using it was a pretty big loss of damage and agro, AND it cost MP which they needed for Flash if they were reducing their agro by engaging in Cure 1 spam. Needless to say, Cure 1 spam was relatively weak AND only considered in dire situations. It was not a go-to that could be worked into the rotation seemlessly like it can be today. And Clemency is one of the BETTER (that is, lesser offenders) in this situation.

WAR - the barbarian with an inner beast - is able to HEAL PARTY MEMBERS. When did that start making sense to people? "To angry to die" is one thing, but "so angry, it un-dies other people" is quite another. When did it make sense for WARs to become party healers in lore or mechanics? And that's before getting to the utter ridiculouslness of WAR using Bloodwhetting/Nascent and then AOEing 8+ enemies for 25 sec Benediction spam for themselves (and a party member) for 8 seconds. DNC has a 600 potency (two 300 potency) AOE party heals that cost no damage. Sure, it's on a 2 min CD, but its 1.5x Indoms for the cost of nothing other than the CD to use them. WAR and GNB both get pretty powerful heals on a 25 sec CD for a party member or themselves, and in WAR's case, or BOTH. GNB has a 90 sec 2 charge Regen, though that's not nearly as big an offender. All the Tanks have pretty strong self-heals just baked into their rotations. SMN has a big party heal baked into its rotation.

Clemency and Vercure are the only exceptions here, and they're probably still a little TOO powerful (contrast HW Cure 1 400 potency with Clemency's 1000, and that was MIND based curing; Clemency scales off of STR and Weapon Damage), but at least there's a strong tradeoff there, even if it can be made up by having a 5th DPS. And it's been a while, but I feel like the first iterations of Clemency cost more. Like 4,000 MP in ShB more, and probably more for lower levels (back before MP pools were fixed at 10k), meaning you could only use them so many times straight. Oh, and PLD didn't have self-healing baked into its core rotation NOR additional healing from Shelltron.

Then we get into mitigation. Every Job has at least one, several have two, some have three. With the right comp, you could have 16 mitigations easily with no Healers, and several of those will be 1 min meaning up twice every 2 minutes. That's something like 20-24 mitigations per 2 min time period in a party with zero Healers, meaning the party can mitigate literally everything without even needing a Healer around for that, Barrier or otherwise. Hell, some of the DPS have more party mitigation than WHM does!

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[spacing added vs original]

Please do tell me what's wrong with this assessment, or what your contra assessment is. Or feel free to express agreement. /shrug

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Originally Posted by Renathras

Please do tell me what's wrong with this assessment, or what your contra assessment is. Or feel free to express agreement. /shrug

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The assessment is fine, it identifies the problem. The issue everyone is taking is not with your problem finding skills, but with your proposed solution to the problem. It's akin to saying 'yeh we should have all the melee be of different simplicity levels so that everyone has a class they can enjoy', leading to one of the melee, probably SAM at this point, let's be real, being reduced in skill ceiling to just being 'build sen spend sen'. Kaiten gone, people couldn't remember to save 20 gauge for it. Senei gauge pooling gone, Ikishoten gives 50 and Senei costs 25, you're always going to have enough. At this rate, in 7.0 Higanbana will be gone, because people are bad at remembering to apply a dot once a minute.

And when someone on the forums says 'damn I miss when SAM had a skill ceiling and you had optimizations you could do on it' your response is that 'no it has to stay braindead because otherwise you alienate the people who like the braindead gameplay', it's a ridiculous stance to take and that's why you get called out on it so much

Also I know you don't like comparing post like counts, insisting they're not a valid way to measure sentiment, but they're all we have here. And I see a whole lot of 10+ arguing against you, and a whole lot of 1's and 2's for you. Probably just the 'echo chamber' at work again, right? Everyone's always against Ren what a cruel world

I'm not going to be wasting my time on you any further cause it just seems like every conversation we have just goes around in circles.
But you clearly have a very weird way of going about your arguments.

You present a solution to the problem, people disagree with you and they back their arguments up with well thought-out points that came from experience, and those points actually make sense.
And then you counter those arguments by going back to the "Oh! There's no problem at all! Everyone enjoys X the way it is! Therefore, my point is better!!"

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Originally Posted by Renathras

You mean BRD? MCH and DNC seem to be where their players enjoy them and they aren't really content breaking other than DNC's Curing Waltz when mixed with other DPS/Tank heals and mitigation.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

Many people do find it fun, interesting, and engaging.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

First and foremost, MANY do like it, even if not EVERYONE does. So that's incorrect from the jump.

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It's boring to have a discussion like that. I suggest you go ahead and play other games so your perspective isn't just stuck in "FFXIV Healing".
Get some more insight and come back so we can actually have a fruitful discussion, rather than going around circles and wasting everyone else's time.

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Originally Posted by Payotz

I'm not going to be wasting my time on you any further cause it just seems like every conversation we have just goes around in circles.
But you clearly have a very weird way of going about your arguments.

You present a solution to the problem, people disagree with you and they back their arguments up with well thought-out points that came from experience, and those points actually make sense.

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That's literally what I have done.

You can disagree with someone's position, but it's not right to lie about what their position is or how they've defended it.

Anyway, yeah, I used to think it's always possible to have a rational discussion with anyone. That talking is good, finding compromise/meeting in the middle is good, and so on. These threads have me reevaluating that position. Not that you need listen, but in the future, if people give you a position based on insight, you contest it, and they defend their position with argument, you should listen to them. Strawmaning either their position or their argument style while suggesting the opposition (on your side) isn't that (Gaius' posts in here have been "well thought-out points that came from experience"? REALLY? You're going with calling digital heckling "well-thought out"?) is just outright lying.

It's also telling that the posts getting the most upvotes are those that are just plain and simple heckling, not actual arguments or proposals.

Let's take a look:

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

You're literally describing yourself my guy, but whatever. Tried to have a normal conversation, but it's not worth it I guess.

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20 Likes

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Originally Posted by GaiusDrakon

he's a 12 year old kid who can't handle the fact that some players know more than him, its fine

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16 Likes (who also edited his post later after it got a bunch of those likes to include the other lines; and no, he won't post on his main or say who his main is to look up, and when I asked him, said he wouldn't tell me because it wouldn't make a difference - the exact opposite of his lying statement now:

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Originally Posted by GaiusDrakon

Literally no point of me posting on my main lmao. You're still going to argue and will still dig your heels in.

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Apparently, people like lies so much they'll upvote abject lies as long as they support said poster bashing/heckling someone else...)

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Originally Posted by Fable_Frost

The topic at hand would appear to be something you have no experience with, yet you're calling out people left right and centre and acting like the law of the forums, congratulating people when they agree with you.

Get a grip.

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19 Likes

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Which of these posts was a "well thought-out argument based on experience that made sense"? Ty's was a continuation of his long-standing feud with me from the Healer forum where he misinterprets what I say, when I clarify insists his misinterpretation is even more right than me telling him outright what I meant, and will never admit he was wrong about it. Gaius' post is a "he's a child" insult, where he says "even if you show him all your accomplishments" (something he's refused to do even once), and he's well known on General Discussion here for being a troll with a thread he started having basically every poster who is a common poster here in General point out that he's a well known troll who loves to harass people and posts on various alt accounts (actual ACCOUNTS) because he doesn't want people knowing what he actually has done or not done. And Fable I've honestly not encountered much other than her complaining about post length in a DPS thread on SMN instead of reading or responding to the arguments in the posts.

If you're going to call those well thought-out and sensible posts and mine not...you might want to reconsider your analytical techniques...

That tells me the people posting/liking posts here don't want well thought-out points that come from experience and make sense - which, for the record, mine are and have been - they want heckling and jeering of people who are making well thought-out posts from experience that make sense but with which they disagree personally and so prefer the heckling to having to confront difficult arguments that contest their views.

The dirty secret is, if I clear every Savage and Ultimate in this game, you'd just find something else to attack me over because you don't want agreement, middle-ground, or compromise. That I haven't is just your low hanging fruit excuse not to listen.

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

The assessment is fine, it identifies the problem.

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Well, that's good at least.

As to your statement of my proposed solution:

My proposed solution is:

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Originally Posted by Renathras

I'm trying to remember all the points, but things like damage not being regular, continued attacks on Tanks by bosses while casting (something you've proposed yourself), more consistent but smaller raidwide unavoidable damage that requires consistent healing (so cannot be treated by oGCDs alone), reducing oGCD healing power A LOT and making oGCDs more on abilities that augment GCD heals and mitigation (Presence of Mind, Divine Seal, Thin Air, Plenary Indulgence, Recitation, Deployment Tactics, Emergency Tactics, Fey Illumination) rather than REPLACE them. I'd honestly love it if Healer Jobs only had 1-2 oGCDs that healed and they had long CDs and were for clutch or emergency use, or extremely planned use, like how Tank Invulns (especially Hollowed and Bolide) are used; like how Benediction was GENERALLY used in ARR. You might notice that I point out a lot of abilities that were from ARR's WHM kit, or abilities in a similar vein. And to do this while nerfing the healing of Tanks and DPS and the mitigation from DPS.

Make more GCD actions, not less. Imagine WHM right now if it didn't have Afflatus heals (say you still get Misery every 1 min, whatever), Assize, Asylum, Tetra, Divine Benison, Aquaveil, and Temperance only had the heal boosting Divine Seal component. BUT, WHM also has an aoe mitigation cast spell (Protect) and a single target 500 potency barrier spell GCD (Stoneskin), and its oGCDs were all the kind that augment their GCD heals to make them more mana (Thin Air), hps (Presence of Mind), or both (Plenary Indulgence) efficient. The gameplay would revolve around using GCDs to heal your party, using oGCDs if you need to boost that for hard content.

Since the GCDs are still entirely functional, this doesn't hurt casual players in casual content.

Since the oGCDs only strengthen GCDs but GCDs are still required, even high end players would still break up their Glarespam for GCD spells that weren't Glare/Dia/Holy, thus being less "mind numbing" since it requires active engagement. YES, using them well would mean more GCDs for Glare, but you'd still need to break that up with GCDs for healing, and the content would still require consistent use of heals, thus being more engaging.

And in harder content, it would encourage intelligent use of oGCDs to augment healing, meaning high end players would still be engaged and the midcore would be more pressed but still be able to meet requirements. "Jonny Casual" isn't doing Ultimates, so this won't matter there.

While you might not find that the most fun thing ever, it's clearly better than what we have now AND would mean these "0 Healer clears" of content would no longer be a thing.

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If you actually addressed what my stances are, not caricatures/strawmen of them, there might be a point in the discussion.

Many others besides me are saying these things, too.

And also:

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

Also I know you don't like comparing post like counts, insisting they're not a valid way to measure sentiment, but they're all we have here. And I see a whole lot of 10+ arguing against you, and a whole lot of 1's and 2's for you. Probably just the 'echo chamber' at work again, right? Everyone's always against Ren what a cruel world

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Considering how you get likes for misrepresenting or misunderstanding my position, and Gauis gets likes for heckling, I would say that the like counter is, indeed, a completely useless metric, yes. Hundreds of people have posted in these threads and you get ~10 likes on things, with ~20 likes on outright heckle posts? Yeah, pretty sure that makes it a pretty terrible metric to use for anything meaningful. Maybe if the heckling posts weren't getting so highly rated, and maybe if the pro-heckle/jeer crowd wasn't overplaying their hands by liking rampant rule violation rude heckling posts, the metric would have more meaning.

But it doesn't because of that. Well, that and other reasons, besides.

.

Oh:

And bring back nAST.

I forgot to add that one above.

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Originally Posted by GaiusDrakon

There is a meaning, and it's that Ren Thras is a meme.

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Says the stalker.

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Originally Posted by GaiusDrakon

If you want to look me up the second post of this thread gives ample hints.

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Nope. You can post on your main or you can't. You haven't, and even refused to. All you've done is troll, heckle, stalk, and harass people, and been rewarded for it by people who I guess don't know better or who support internet bullying and stalking. And I'm not going to devote posts to you further. Troll harder. Or better yet, stop trolling.

Going to put my replies to you in hb going forward to spare sane people of having to be exposed to your trollish jeering and heckling anymore than necessary.

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

Also I know you don't like comparing post like counts, insisting they're not a valid way to measure sentiment, but they're all we have here. And I see a whole lot of 10+ arguing against you, and a whole lot of 1's and 2's for you. Probably just the 'echo chamber' at work again, right? Everyone's always against Ren what a cruel world

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No, no, it's just a bunch of trolls liking each other

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Originally Posted by Renathras

Yeah, pretty sure that makes it a pretty terrible metric to use for anything meaningful. Maybe if the heckling posts weren't getting so highly rated, the metric would have more meaning.

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There is a meaning, and it's that Ren Thras is a meme.

If you want to look me up the second post of this thread gives ample hints.

I'll take a Kenleebudouchu for 10 please Bob?

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Originally Posted by Renathras

Most of that doesn't sound fun at all. EXCEPT Durochole/Lustrate being shields. I've said since at least ShB that SCH should have a Divine Benison-like ability that's an AF spender . . .

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Woa I have never seen such an adept forum baiter. What exactly do you bring to the table instead? I believe that it's possible to get new changes, and try to relate my ideas to what the devs seem to be leaning toward.

Also, Scholar does not have any trouble in spending AF. What troubles scholar the most is using faerie gage. So how about a ## gage cost ability instead of just Aetherpact for faerie gage? Instead of this constant copy paste back and forth bickering? What is up with the extreme contentiousness? :confused: I close my doors.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

I'll take a Kenleebudouchu for 10 please Bob?

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lmao to this day i have no idea what that name means

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Originally Posted by AlereRaeder

Woa I have never seen...

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I just said I agree with someone on something, and you attack me for it?

God this place is weird...

The other user said Lustrate/Durochole, not me. I just agreed. Maybe attack them (or was it you that posted that?) I do agree Faerie Gauge is useless, though. My personal belief is that Energy Drain should draw from Faerie Gauge, OR Fey Blessing again, just without the CD (so you can choose to use Faerie Gauge on either a single target or an AOE heal, at your discretion). SCH having a pure barrier AF spender would be nice for a couple reasons as well. First, just in a lore sense - SCH is the OG Barrier Healer, as I pointed out, yet has the LEAST RESPONSIVE barriers of any Healer Job. WHM and AST have instant cast barriers (Benison and Intersection), and SCH has Haima, Panhaima, Holos, and the 1 sec instant cast on the move combination of Eukrasia and either Prognosis OR Diagnosis for single target OR AOE barrier options.

What does SCH have for barrier options? Adlo and Succor (2 sec casts, Succor also gets overwritten frequently by SGE because of the weird priority that Eukrasian shields have) and the summoning sickness Seraph shields. Why does the OG Barrier Healer have the least responsive shielding capability? That's just...conceptually odd.

Secondarily, it would give them an AF dump when Excogitation is on CD. Shielding almost never goes to waste on Tanks, and can often be useful on others if the shield buff is long enough (30 sec or so). While you CAN use Energy Drain for this right now, that's only if the boss is targetable. A shiled could be used anytime. And often, when the boss isn't targetable, it's because it's about to use some big attack, in which case being able to burn excess AFs on shields then as your Aetherflow comes off CD so you can use it without overcapping, would actually benefit the party.

So either way you slice it, it's not a bad idea to have.

But yeah, if you're going to attack someone for the idea, maybe you should attack...the person...who said this:

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Originally Posted by AlereRaeder

[*]Why are barrier healer's Druochole and Lustrate healing raw hp? They could give shield for the health they would've healed. Look now you can use Emergency Tactics/Pepsis in a different way.

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Oh, wait...that was you.

Why are you attacking your own idea now?

And why get 11 Likes for attacking...someone agreeing...with your own idea?
(Again proving Likes are the worst possible metric for judging ideas or support for anything other than cliques and vendettas - seriously, whoever is doing that, you're working against yourselves, lol)

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Originally Posted by Renathras

Again proving Likes are the worst possible metric for judging ideas or support for anything other than cliques and vendettas - seriously, whoever is doing that, you're working against yourselves, lol

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literally so mad

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Originally Posted by Renathras

Why are you attacking your own idea now?

And why get 11 Likes for attacking...someone agreeing...with your own idea?

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Hey Ren,
You can CTRL+F and search "Lustrate" and "Druochole" and find that I didn't even mention those spells in my reply. Also, it's disingenuous to assume that I said something I did not, and delusional to reply based on your own made up fiction.... stopitgetsomehelp.jpg

I liked your idea of scholar getting a AF ability like benison, so I gave my idea to instead have it use gage to see what you thought. That would be fun to have on scholar, and not this stale gameplay loop we have as healers. I also like your idea of a "Single target or AoE" ability. We kinda have that with our damaging AoEs like Afflatus Misery doing single target while also being AoE if targets are around with diminishing potency, but not for heals.

I don't post often on the forums, so if people are liking what I contributed then it is what it is. I knew there was some heat around but I wasn't expecting you to be so insatiable; targetting anyone and everyone's opinions lol. It's all pure speculation in the end. No need to play the victim when I didn't "attack" you.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

(Again proving Likes are the worst possible metric for judging ideas or support for anything other than cliques and vendettas - seriously, whoever is doing that, you're working against yourselves, lol)

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This is deliciously ironic coming from the person whose favorite fallback argument is "everyone agrees with me" when it's convenient to you.

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Originally Posted by AlereRaeder

Hey Ren,
You can CTRL+F and search "Lustrate" and "Druochole" and find that I didn't even mention those spells in my reply. Also, it's disingenuous to assume that I said something I did not, and delusional to reply based on your own made up fiction.... stopitgetsomehelp.jpg
.

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https://i.imgur.com/W3BND7r.png

Yeh unfortunately this is the 'stars aligned' moment where Ren is right for once, Druo/Lustrate were named specifically

Personally I had the idea of 'what if Indom applied a shield, and ET was changed to smash all active shields to pureheal in emergency' but they added Pepsis now so that idea's kinda goners (said idea was also thought back in late HW so it's kinda outdated anyway)

It is weird that the focus on the disagreement here was the Druo/Lustrate, rather than the fact Ren disagreed with the other 10 or whatever points (and Druo/Lustrate being shields was the only thing they found 'good'), why not work on coming to consensus on the other 10 things first instead of losing your marbles over the one point where there's even a slight amount of common ground (something that is vanishingly rare when it comes to Ren takes)

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Originally Posted by Aword3213

https://i.imgur.com/W3BND7r.png

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"I didn't mention those spells in my reply"

The reply in question:

https://i.gyazo.com/fe924e5ea091eeed...9b94e93222.png

As far as I can tell they're not attacking the druochole/lustrate as shield idea but the rest of the comment where they said that the rest of ideas weren't good

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Originally Posted by WaxSw

"I didn't mention those spells in my reply"

The reply in question:

https://i.gyazo.com/fe924e5ea091eeed...9b94e93222.png

As far as I can tell they're not attacking the druochole/lustrate as shield idea but the rest of the comment where they said that the rest of ideas weren't good

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Ok my bad.

Thank you

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Originally Posted by AlereRaeder

Hey Ren,
You can CTRL+F and search "Lustrate" and "Druochole" and find that I didn't even mention those spells in my reply.

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Uh...I literally quoted you:

You:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AlereRaeder

Also, Scholar does not have any trouble in spending AF. What troubles scholar the most is using faerie gage.

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Also You:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AlereRaeder

[*]Why are barrier healer's Druochole and Lustrate healing raw hp? They could give shield for the health they would've healed. Look now you can use Emergency Tactics/Pepsis in a different way.

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.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AlereRaeder

Also, it's disingenuous to assume that I said something I did not,

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I.
Literally.
Quoted.
You:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AlereRaeder

[*]Why are barrier healer's Druochole and Lustrate healing raw hp? They could give shield for the health they would've healed. Look now you can use Emergency Tactics/Pepsis in a different way.

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Did you or did you not post that?

.

I think the issue here might be a language barrier, though...

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

This is deliciously ironic coming from the person whose favorite fallback argument is "everyone agrees with me" when it's convenient to you.

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Note I never use Likes as a metric for that. Because Likes are a bad metric.

Also: Can you quote one time I've ever said/argued "everyone agrees with me"?

You can't, because I never have.
(14 Likes)

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Originally Posted by GaiusDrakon

literally so mad

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Peanut gallery heckling, ladies and gentlemen.
(14 Likes)

Note at this point I'm just pointing out likes to heckling or outright lying posts to show HOW BAD Likes as a metric is. So do keep liking those posts and proving it. I appreciate your service.

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Originally Posted by Aword3213

https://i.imgur.com/W3BND7r.png

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Thank you! <3

The thing is, I even quoted that IN THE POST that the person said they never mentioned it. The post where they mentioned AF abilities not being relevant to SCH's issues.

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

Yeh unfortunately this is the 'stars aligned' moment where Ren is right for once, Druo/Lustrate were named specifically

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Sarcasm aside...thank you?

Notice something interesting about this post, though:
0 Likes

Funny how someone telling the truth - if it's something positive about me - gets 0 Likes. VERY interesting that, isn't it? In fact, it's the only one of ForsakenRoe's posts that hasn't gotten any likes.

Way to prove my point, folks. I appreciate that, even if it wasn't intentional.

I'll give it one, though. :)

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

Personally I had the idea of 'what if Indom applied a shield, and ET was changed to smash all active shields to pureheal in emergency' but they added Pepsis now so that idea's kinda goners (said idea was also thought back in late HW so it's kinda outdated anyway)

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I guess I always thought Lustrate since it seems less potentially OP, and especially since we have Excog as a (better in basically every way as of ShB) alternative. But yeah, fair enough.

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

It is weird that the focus on the disagreement here was the Druo/Lustrate, rather than the fact Ren disagreed with the other 10 or whatever points (and Druo/Lustrate being shields was the only thing they found 'good'), why not work on coming to consensus on the other 10 things first instead of losing your marbles over the one point where there's even a slight amount of common ground (something that is vanishingly rare when it comes to Ren takes)

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Because people have this weird knee-jerk impulse to argue against posters than points. So much so, if there's a poster they've got past disagreements with, they'd rather disagree with that person on instinct than see common ground with them. I think I've had all of one time this was set aside, and that was my proposed SCH changes in the Healer forum (which was a soft "more DPS buttons" proposal...)

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Originally Posted by WaxSw

"I didn't mention those spells in my reply"

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Although the reply didn't explicitly mention them, the reply was a counter to the point. When I said I agreed with them on the Lustrate/Duro proposal, this was the reply:

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Originally Posted by AlereRaeder

Also, Scholar does not have any trouble in spending AF. What troubles scholar the most is using faerie gage.

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It's fairly rational to read that as "SCH doesn't have trouble with AF mechanics, so a Lustrate change like that is unnecessary", which would be arguing against their prior point. If it was not, what was that point/paragraph saying? Was it not saying "Lustrate change isn't needed/isn't necessary/etc"? What was it saying, then?

Again, this may be a language barrier (parts of that post aren't entirely understandable "Instead of this constant copy paste back and forthing" when no copy and pasting was going on and "I close my doors."

The person didn't address any of the other ideas, only (1) AF not being an issue (which SEEMS to be addressing the Lustrate proposal) and (2) Faerie Gauge being an issue (a point I agreed with, but which hadn't been discussed by either of us prior).

So yes, they did indirectly mention Lustrate via countering a post agreeing with them on Lustrate with saying that SCH didn't have any trouble spending AF. What it seems to me is someone spoke too carelessly to contest me, and then tried to defend the careless speech, and then people who instinctually disagree with me chose to also try and defend that position.

To her credit, ForsakenRoe did not (even if grudgingly) go along with that, showing a capacity for honesty and fairmindedness that seems oddly rare from others here...

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Originally Posted by Aword3213

Ok my bad.

Thank you

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No, you had the right of it. It's a thin defense being used now to try and eek out a "win" for some reason. Your initial take was correct.

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

(said idea was also thought back in late HW so it's kinda outdated anyway)

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No, I like that idea aswell. Even moreso since you mentioned it was an idea you had in HW. It's a really outdated idea that STILL has value today is what I see.(mostly ET imo, SGE has the updated ET).

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Originally Posted by Renathras

language barrier

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who says this unironically. Again, being disingenuous outright. I don't want to write a book in the thread dude. I do want to close out any misunderstandings.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

Although the reply didn't explicitly mention them, the reply was a counter to the point.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Renathras

Most of that doesn't sound fun at all. EXCEPT Durochole/Lustrate being shields. I've said since at least ShB that SCH should have a Divine Benison-like ability that's an AF spender.

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Oh I was aware we agreed, but I think there was a misunderstanding. You agreed with the Lustrate/Druo idea, you also mentioned your idea of SCH having a Divine-Benison-like AF spender. Now, the misunderstanding is that I believed you were talking about a new ability altogether (since you didn't mention what it would be) in that clause and also change Lustrate(in agreement).

Hopefully you are able to see this too.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

Because people have this weird knee-jerk impulse to argue against posters than points.

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I agreed with most of your ideas, not much of the ones against me since they were silly. I conceded the ideas you didn't think were fun. I was surprised you were so insatiable, but I wanted to know what you thought were better changes.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

It's fairly rational to read that as ...

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In that sentence there were 2 clauses:
1. Scholar does not have any trouble in spending AF.
2. What troubles scholar the most is using faerie gage.

Again, the misunderstanding. The clauses are clear and objective. They are simple claims about scholar's AF/gage usage when playing the current game. I said this to guide you in my thinking as to why I thought this "Divine-Benison-like ability" would be suited to use fairy gage instead.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

... (which SEEMS to be addressing the Lustrate proposal) ...[/B]

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Even you are aware of the misunderstanding. We're both agreeing on the same thing, but you keep latching on, that's where we're at. A lot of replies from you saying the same thing

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Originally Posted by Renathras

So yes, they did indirectly mention Lustrate via countering ...

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A reply to the thread is not a reply to an individual. In my reply to you I didn't explicitly mention those terms but you thought I did; thus, giving you a faulty pretense. I was not talking about Lustrate/Druo. But yeah, misunderstanding.

Anyways, like i said before "Instead of this constant copy paste back and forthing"(The way you talk about your ideas is verbose) and "I close my doors."(idiom) I do not want to interact with you anymore.

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Originally Posted by AlereRaeder

...

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This is a VERY different tone than your prior post. Okay, cool.

1) "Oh I was aware we agreed, but I think there was a misunderstanding." That's what I meant by "language barrier". This is online, so sometimes people who aren't native speakers talk (I play lots of games with people for whom English isn't their native language), and one way that sometimes manifests is some statements that are unusual in English but are them trying a literal translation of a saying in their native language. "I close my doors", for example, isn't an idiom in English as far as I'm aware. Googling "'I close my doors' meaning" doesn't come up with anything. So it had me wonder if your seeming disagreement (and calling me an "adept forum baiter") could have been due to such a language barrier. This wasn't an insult. I play games with people whose native languages are German, Polish, etc all the time who either know English as a second language or use a translator program, so when I see any tell-tale signs of that, I try to determine if that might be the issue leading to a misunderstanding that may not actually exist absent that barrier.

2) It does seem to be a misunderstanding. By "Divine-Benison-like" I did just mean "Lustrate as a pure barrier instead of heal", as you suggested. So yes, I was just agreeing with you.

3) "I was surprised you were so insatiable"? I'm...can you define what you mean by "insatiable"? Using that word in this context is...unusual. If you mean why I reacted with hostility? Because you called me an "adept forum baiter". That's a pretty strong insult and got us off on the wrong foot. Imagine if I started a post by calling you names, something I did not do with my initial reply to you.

4) "Again, the misunderstanding." Indeed. Which is why I wondered if there might be a language barrier because it did seem that we were having misunderstandings. What you call "1." is what seemed like you were disagreeing with my statement, which seemed very odd to me since I was agreeing with your prior one.

5) "Even you are aware of the misunderstanding." That's the thing - I wasn't aware. It wasn't clear if you were misunderstanding me or arguing against me. When you called me an "adept forum baiter", that seems to mean you were disagreeing with me since it seems to mean you were calling my post "bait", which is an insult/disagreeable thing. If that was not your intent, what did you mean by "adept forum baiter"? I also only replied to that post, the reply you made, and to other people defending your position/attacking me over it. There was no "keep latching on".

6) "A repy to the thread is not a reply to an individual", you directly quoted me. When you quote someone in a thread, you are replying to them.

7) "But yeah, misunderstanding." Yes, agreed.

8) "I do not want to interact with you anymore." Also agreed. I do not want to interact with you anymore.

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Originally Posted by Boblawblah

Well, this alt isn't fun to listen to anymore. Bring on the next one please, going to have to block this one.

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https://media.tenor.com/I0rE_KD_v-cA...mastadonte.gif

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Originally Posted by Boblawblah

Well, this alt isn't fun to listen to anymore. Bring on the next one please, going to have to block this one.

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Mad Mad Mad

Somebody have a TL;DR for the last 200 pages?

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Originally Posted by BRVV

Somebody have a TL;DR for the last 200 pages?

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TL;DR is that in a game that boast its a trinity the highest level of content should not have outgoing damage so pitiful that it doesn't require two healers, period.

Meaning that WAR, RDM, DNC, and w/e the hells else on top of Second Wind even when properly optimised by the highest percentage of people should not be enough healing to prevent a wipe without the healing role as a whole.

I... honestly don't mind that a hyper-optimized team could forgo having healers. That's not really the issue to me.

I dislike that it would ever be OPTIMAL to run Ultimate without healers, largely because it just means they don't offer anything else worthy of note and that clearly that isn't then an allocation worthy of so much of those jobs' buttons. But I'd be just as happy with healers' roles being broadened to more varied means of supportive interaction (not even counting rDPS, as that's still just... dps, not utility) as to see healing requirements greatly increased as to outscale what tanks (especially WAR and PLD) can presently provide.

Similarly, I dislike that PLD and WAR have so much self-healing (and, to a lesser extent, total sustain [effective dmg nullification + restoration]) simply because the means of that self-healing is so dull, even just compared to the likes of ShB Nascent Flash healing (or, say, WAR's self-healing from ARR to Stormblood). It's routine, hardly optimizable, and scarcely deliberate. It's an especially boring means of sustain, just like filler-spam or DRK's 123-spam are each an especially dull means of offensive throughput.

That’s not quite it, it’s more been dissatisfaction that ultimates were unironically suggested by yoship as the content where healers would be interesting, only for them to mainly be mitigation checks & broilspam, and then to top it off the most recent ultimate was cleared without any healers. The role is not in a great place and people are disgruntled.

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Originally Posted by BRVV

Somebody have a TL;DR for the last 200 pages?

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Unironically, it's basically:

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Originally Posted by GaiusDrakon

Mad Mad Mad

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Originally Posted by Renathras

Unironically, it's basically:

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you're missing the part where the grievances are justified and reasoned, but good job doing what you do best: posting badly

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BRVV

Somebody have a TL;DR for the last 200 pages?

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Healers want more to do (i.e., greater and more varied capacities, more to track, greater diversity in buttons hit) that would be of value, and perhaps to feel like the role as a whole carries a bit more of (unique) value.

The threat of wipes due to less capable healers keeps us from just increasing healing requirements to make that happen, though. So a combination of other means, too, would probably be best.

Isn't obvious, SE is gonna remove healers duty finder requirements with the next expansion. That's why criterion dungeons exist, to beta test before going full time. TOPS is just another test.

https://i.ibb.co/1Rh2H7y/Gee-No-Kaiten.png

We'll take... the buffs I guess? Where's my " Kaiten" though... I didn't ask for damage buffs...

I apparently get to do Extra Damage cause I login into the game as Samurai and exist... At least make me obtain the damage through some Kaiten resource management... make it feel rewarding cause I work and practiced for it, not cause I... turned on my PC... Quality-Award-Winning-Game levels of gameplay. Is that what it is? We complain so just make us choke on the 4th / 5th? Samurai buff that we didn't ask for... I thought we were like top dps anyways wtf...

I guess... I mean... I guess... who needs ... w-w-who needs... Gameplay omg I want " Kaiten " its that so much to ask!?

https://i.ibb.co/FhvyGV1/Q-Q.gif

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Originally Posted by CelestiCer

https://i.ibb.co/1Rh2H7y/Gee-No-Kaiten.png

We'll take... the buffs I guess? Where's my " Kaiten" though... I didn't ask for damage buffs...

I apparently get to do Extra Damage cause I login into the game as Samurai and exist... At least make me obtain the damage through some Kaiten resource management... make it feel rewarding cause I work and practiced for it, not cause I... turned on my PC... Quality-Award-Winning-Game levels of gameplay. Is that what it is? We complain so just make us choke on the 4th / 5th? Samurai buff that we didn't ask for... I thought we were like top dps anyways wtf...

I guess... I mean... I guess... who needs ... w-w-who needs... Gameplay omg I want " Kaiten " its that so much to ask!?

https://i.ibb.co/FhvyGV1/Q-Q.gif

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Most sane samurai main. Stay strong brother/sister/potato

Ever notice that the people complaining about said things probably rarely play Savage / Ultimate / EX they say they do but they don't O. o maybe they don't craft either pretend they do but don't seems like the meeting of minds except without the minds.
t

https://i.ibb.co/x2nzRwD/image-2023-05-22-232845989.png

lol

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Originally Posted by Renathras

Unironically, it's basically Mad Mad Mad

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lmao nice self awareness

you totally dont mald at everyone from the healer forums 24/7 kek

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Originally Posted by CelestiCer

[…]I guess... I mean... I guess... who needs ... w-w-who needs... Gameplay omg I want " Kaiten " its that so much to ask!?

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How dare thee to suggest people to actually press more button for more damage. /s

'More button for more damage' is fine, it's when 'more button, but you have to use braincell to decide when is good to use = more damage' that's when it becomes an issue

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

'More button for more damage' is fine, it's when 'more button, but you have to use braincell to decide when is good to use = more damage' that's when it becomes an issue

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Yay I saw the DPS section post and " Deo14 " is right... just give us the Ranged Tax already with Tenka Goken's changes. Darting in and out was just more engaging and rewarding as you needed to aim your AoE with an extra braincell... but we should remove this and just... idk just give Samurai " Braincell Tax " at this point....

Then again it's all about making it dumber-dumber and dumber. If its Engaging for a Job? Delete it and accept the phrase " Just go play Ultimate " cause Content that is Engaging or not is somehow more important then Jobs we play 24/7 to do the said content.

Ren bad

Bottom text

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zakuyia

Ever notice that the people complaining about said things probably rarely play Savage / Ultimate / EX they say they do but they don't O. o maybe they don't craft either pretend they do but don't seems like the meeting of minds except without the minds.
t

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Honestly, I believe there is value there.

I believe that healers should be engaged even when the party is playing way above the skill level required.

My turning point was back in 5.2 when I joined a Titania EX farm that I had to drop after a few runs, not because the players were bad, but rather because they were way too good and i was bored and falling asleep.

If I can only be engaged when players are bad, something is wrong.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zakuyia

Ever notice that the people complaining about said things probably rarely play Savage / Ultimate / EX they say they do but they don't O. o maybe they don't craft either pretend they do but don't seems like the meeting of minds except without the minds.

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A quick look at "the site that shall not be named" shows that a lot of the complaints are coming from people who do savage, but even if they weren't it still wouldn't invalidate said complaints.

Players who don't do any of the harder content probably have even more reason to complain about the current state because their entire gameplay experience consists of being bored. The content they do shows the atrocious design in it's bare state, what the job gameplay actually looks like once all the boss mechanic density and coordinated dancing from savage and ultimate have been stripped away.