Wow, Wuk Lamat is really single-handedly ruining the DT story...

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

Frankly I think Gulool Jaja is a bad character, up there with Wuk Lamat or even worse.

He seems to be a bad father given how one dimension all 3 of his characters are. But ... is he even a good ruler.

The most baffling aspect about his rule is the story of the Mamook Ja ... you know ... his own people?

So the Mamook Ja was so desperated that they decided to dig a tunnel through the mountain and committed to a bloody war to a better life.

Gulool Jaja appeared, give them a meal and just tell them to go home. Yay, great ruler!!

But from what we see, he literally did NOTHING to address the concern or the root cause of the war during the 80 years of his rule

The Mamook Ja was still suffering, was still desperate. Probably even more so than before.

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I hate the story as much as any here but hard disagree.

Gulool JaJa was neither a bad character nor was he a bad father.

He is one of the few characters in the story that actually FEELS like a character and not just a walking trope or plot devise.

It's also clear he was a good father to his children. None of them hated that part about him, not even Zoraal Ja and he clearly only had the best for Tural in mind.

The Mamook Ja thing is kinda stupid yes but there are actually two things to consider.
Gulool JaJa was a leader and the probably had the first half of his reign his hand full of actually making a city that doesn't kill each other.
Let's also remember that those guys chose to stay behind and suffer.

The whole Mamool ja stuff was first and foremost attrocious writing with them not even bothering trying differnent crops or something else.
They could also have just raised animals and traded the rest if they wanted to.
It's pretty clear their suffering at least is half self induced.

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Originally Posted by Voidmage

Gulool JaJa was neither a bad character nor was he a bad father.

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He's bad in the same sense of most other DT's character is bad, the narrative barely tell us anything about them. We know he was a strong and wise character which demonstrated through his feast. But how was he as a ruler, we have a 80 years gap with literally nothing to fill.

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He is one of the few characters in the story that actually FEELS like a character and not just a walking trope or plot devise.

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First, I think that's because he's actually pretty empty. Second I also disagree about he's not a trope, he's actually one of the VERY typical one. The super-cool character who is also designed to die to either make room for or push the rest of the cast. Top of my heads let's see ... Duncan from Dragon Age Origin, Mother Queen from Suikoden 5, Jeralt from Fire Emblem Three Houses, General Ouki from Kingdom, and a lot more. Seriously, he's the type of character that after 2 interaction I was like "yep, this guy gonna die, soon".

Here is one of your (J)RPG 101: if the parents of an important character appear in the same story, there is a good chance the parents are there to die. And the cooler the parents, the higher the chance of that happening. It's very old formula.

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It's also clear he was a good father to his children. None of them hated that part about him, not even Zoraal Ja and he clearly only had the best for Tural in mind.

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I know quite a few "children" who love their parents very much, whether they're well adjusted individual though ... I don't think the metric you're using are accurate nor reliable.

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Gulool JaJa was a leader and the probably had the first half of his reign his hand full of actually making a city that doesn't kill each other.

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I'm not gonna say you're wrong but you don't know that it's true either. And this is the problem, we're trying to fill the gap with conjecture because the narrative doesn't tell us anything.

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The whole Mamool ja stuff was first and foremost attrocious writing with them not even bothering trying differnent crops or something else.
They could also have just raised animals and traded the rest if they wanted to.
It's pretty clear their suffering at least is half self induced.

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The worst part of this is how "laughable easy" we were able to solve this 80+ years issue when we arrived. Gulool Ja Ja reached out to the Krile's grand father while Konoa essentially went for a full scholarship, this show they're well connected and aware of the Sharyaland capability. His right hand man stayed in that forest for 80 years, and were a world renown seasonal adventure ... and you tell absolutely no one were able to come up with such a simple and obvious solution? The whole super baby thing is like jumping to the letter Z to solve the issue while ignoring all the ABC before that.

Also you can read Papayatar's reply right above for further explanation why this story is a really bad reflection on Gulool Ja Ja

She was fine for the first half but she should've been side lined after she became Dawnservant and the focus shifted to Erenville and Krile, but that did not happen. It just kept the attention on her and she quite literally forced herself into a moment that would've been a 11/10 for the game as a whole and completely ruined it. Obviously I'm talking about the final trial. I'm still praying they consider rewrites of post-patch MSQ if it features her heavily.

Annoying character & having a bad VA just creates a concoction that most people cannot tolerate.

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Originally Posted by Papayatar

The Mamook issue was like a hole in the wall though ...

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Can I call it ... a plot hole? :D

And yeah I'm pretty much agree with the rest of your post because that's how I see it too.

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Originally Posted by Papayatar

His whole thing was about unifying people but he ignored what was going on in his home town after he checked off stopping the war in that area and got them to have dinner together. Mission accomplished?

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And it's not like he's not aware of the issue. Being a blessed himself, he must at least have an irking about his people fascination. Also like you mentioned the fact he adopted WL means he must be aware there is still a cold war going on.

Some may say it could be the whole bless obssession only started after his people saw how great he is ... that still wouldn't excuse him from not noticing it for 80 years. Otherwise he's really not in a position to bid the 4 promises to "go out and learn more about your people" if he himself missed an issue the size of the titanic.

First make a super soldier is to be human. Alot the response are human responsible. Enemies who will eat together won't fight each other it may culture too. Second gulool is sterile so adopting children is something he would do third children that keep they problem inside won't let other know about what they struggle with. All are human responsible. Wok lamah be kept close to home is probably because of the attempt on her life. I don't think any characters is bad they just human

I switched to JP voice acting before starting the DT MSQ, and I think it helped my impressions.

I'm not here to defend the story, only say it feels *insansely* refreshing after Endwalker.

Endwalker was a fantastic story... That literally triggered my mental health issues to the point I uninstalled briefly during the last zone. Afterwards, it was like the game itself became something of a trigger, not ideal because I used FFXIV to help cope with said issues. It culminated in me taking a hiatus from FFXIV to wait until the next xpac release.

After DT finally released and I bought a story skip for the 6.x patches, I felt a great sense of relief. The story feels like glass of lemonade on a hot day. Its flawed, but after EW went a bit too hard for me, it was nice to have something not defined by intense dread.

Wak Lamut should have dropped out after the Rite was done, but I kinda went past her into 'You do you, I'm just gonna talk to every NPC before moving on' territory, taking screenshots, and loving the encounter design in the new dungeons. Oh, and catching up on stuff I missed out during my hiatus, like the Island Santuary, which periodically side-tracked me.

Its not that I stopped caring about the story, more that I focused on other characters, their interactions, and details. And getting distracted like a FATE chain in Shaaloni or my unlucky encounter with an A-rank at level 94. ...I'm so glad to be playing again.

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

He's bad in the same sense of most other DT's character is bad, the narrative barely tell us anything about them. We know he was a strong and wise character which demonstrated through his feast. But how was he as a ruler, we have a 80 years gap with literally nothing to fill.

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You are correct that we aren't told that outright but that is one of the few times that's actually not wrong in my opinion.
We can just look at all the people there. None are unhappy, the borders to other continents were opened and he installed a big Aether crystal network.
His rule seems to be full of building up a peacefull town, safe country and technology where it benefits the people.

If anything I would say we know more about his rule then about him being a father.

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First, I think that's because he's actually pretty empty. Second I also disagree about he's not a trope, he's actually one of the VERY typical one. The super-cool character who is also designed to die to either make room for or push the rest of the cast. Top of my heads let's see ... Duncan from Dragon Age Origin, Mother Queen from Suikoden 5, Jeralt from Fire Emblem Three Houses, General Ouki from Kingdom, and a lot more. Seriously, he's the type of character that after 2 interaction I was like "yep, this guy gonna die, soon".

Here is one of your (J)RPG 101: if the parents of an important character appear in the same story, there is a good chance the parents are there to die. And the cooler the parents, the higher the chance of that happening. It's very old formula.

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Nono, you missunderstand me. I'm not saying he as no tropes. I'm saying he deosn't feel like it.
Yes he is the cool old dude trope like you mentioned but he is actually more then that like in my first point.
He was a good ruler and a father who loved his children besides trying his best to make a new dawnservant.
He also was someone who was not afraid to use his strenght to unify people but also knew when to talk things out.
That's not just one single trope.

On your examples:
Duncan was actually far deeper then that and kinda dark with his "grey wardens first" approach and Queen Arshtat was a loving mother who was manipulated by the sun rune. Both are far more then their tropes because they use those to make the character liek Gulool JaJa.
I agree on Jeralt though (hate three houses anyway). A better example would have been Ikes father in my opinion.
Those characters were not defined by their death but by their way to it and what they left behind after it.

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I know quite a few "children" who love their parents very much, whether they're well adjusted individual though ... I don't think the metric you're using are accurate nor reliable.

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Sorry but this here I don't understand.
You are using psychological problems here. Gulool JaJa was absolutely not an abusing parent or something. He clearly had the best interest of his children in mind and was even as only the head of resolve the most level headed character in the entire story with a bit of "I like to fight strong oponents".

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I'm not gonna say you're wrong but you don't know that it's true either. And this is the problem, we're trying to fill the gap with conjecture because the narrative doesn't tell us anything.

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Of course not. It's all just a theory because the writing sucks in DT and doesn't tell us anything but so is the whole debate about Gulool JaJas character.

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The worst part of this is how "laughable easy" we were able to solve this 80+ years issue when we arrived. Gulool Ja Ja reached out to the Krile's grand father while Konoa essentially went for a full scholarship, this show they're well connected and aware of the Sharyaland capability. His right hand man stayed in that forest for 80 years, and were a world renown seasonal adventure ... and you tell absolutely no one were able to come up with such a simple and obvious solution? The whole super baby thing is like jumping to the letter Z to solve the issue while ignoring all the ABC before that.

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I completely agree with you here.

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Also you can read Papayatar's reply right above for further explanation why this story is a really bad reflection on Gulool Ja Ja

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I know I just don't reply to everything, I don't even disagree on him having made mistakes or wrong turns.
I just harshly disagree on the notion that he was a bad ruler and bad parent because both things are told to us by the characters ingame to not be true.

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Originally Posted by sylphlands

I just need to rant - I can't even be on twitter anymore because of this crap.

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Stay off Twitter/X, people there just complain about EVERYTHING, no matter how good it is. Pretty sure witch hunts go on there pretty darn often. It's just cult like mentality, if you aren't with them then you're against them. If you go on reddit, you'll see the FFXIV fans bash WoW to make FFXIV look good. Twitter-wise everyone has hero-syndrome. You get used to it, don't worry about the backlash and just say what you have to say. They can't do anything to you across the computer screen. People will disagree with you but just let it out. Same here, speak your mind, if people disagree then they disagree. If you need to let it out then let it out. The forums are here for criticism.

I'm not going to defend Sena though, she's an awful person from what her tweets tell about her and her performance is grating to the ears of many.

Story-wise, welcome to the horrible fanfic of Hiroi. It's awful and we are all depressed about it.

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Originally Posted by Voidmage

You are correct that we aren\\'t told that outright but that is one of the few times that\\'s actually not wrong in my opinion.
We can just look at all the people there. None are unhappy, the borders to other continents were opened and he installed a big Aether crystal network.
His rule seems to be full of building up a peacefull town, safe country and technology where it benefits the people.

If anything I would say we know more about his rule then about him being a father.




Nono, you missunderstand me. I\\'m not saying he as no tropes. I\\'m saying he deosn\\'t feel like it.
Yes he is the cool old dude trope like you mentioned but he is actually more then that like in my first point.
He was a good ruler and a father who loved his children besides trying his best to make a new dawnservant.
He also was someone who was not afraid to use his strenght to unify people but also knew when to talk things out.
That\\'s not just one single trope.

On your examples:
Duncan was actually far deeper then that and kinda dark with his "grey wardens first" approach and Queen Arshtat was a loving mother who was manipulated by the sun rune. Both are far more then their tropes because they use those to make the character liek Gulool JaJa.
I agree on Jeralt though (hate three houses anyway). A better example would have been Ikes father in my opinion.
Those characters were not defined by their death but by their way to it and what they left behind after it.


Sorry but this here I don\\'t understand.
You are using psychological problems here. Gulool JaJa was absolutely not an abusing parent or something. He clearly had the best interest of his children in mind and was even as only the head of resolve the most level headed character in the entire story with a bit of "I like to fight strong oponents".



Of course not. It\\'s all just a theory because the writing sucks in DT and doesn\\'t tell us anything but so is the whole debate about Gulool JaJas character.


I completely agree with you here.


I know I just don\\'t reply to everything, I don\\'t even disagree on him having made mistakes or wrong turns.

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He didn’t solve the glaring problem with his own home town for more then 80 years and effectively knew about it and didn’t do Jack having so many generations off innocent children die. Sounds like a good and wise ruler if you ask me.

He favours Wuk so much in comparison to his other children it’s downright stupid. Like his son tries his utmost to be like his father and what does he get ??? Nothing not even words or help from him. His kids also have almost no clue what the hell is happening culture wise in tural like not even a small amount. So the fact we have is he did help all the people and kept piece but somehow knew is own home was a monstrous place and did nothing for it in over 80 years ? Strong writing

This is usually true for rulers their home life is mess so they focus on what going outside their home life. I don't think the story is bad I think they had humanize a character the was more monster look so they did. Yet they had make each character different wok lamah like foods and good hunt. Her two brother are different. The issue with these characters they reduce the hero WoL to side character. Many people like be main character. No fault in that let hope that we won't have wok lamah much longer

OMG just saw Zepla's playthrough during Living Memory. Check it out!. After the devastating, beautiful scene when Erenville says goodbye to his mother and we see her return to the the Lifestream, Wuk Lamat interrupts the moment and practically says "OK we are done here". Zepla inmediately ravages her by saying BITCH this is NOT about you, shut up, for once, get out of my game!. #eraseWukLamat. https://www.youtube.com/clip/Ugkx-P2...6plIoUNYR91Bei. Zepla keep going! You are amazing!

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Originally Posted by Althalan

OMG just saw Zepla's playthrough during Living Memory. Check it out!. After the devastating, beautiful scene when Erenville says goodbye to his mother and we see her return to the the Lifestream, Wuk Lamat interrupts the moment and practically says "OK we are done here". Zepla inmediately ravages her by saying BITCH this is NOT about you, shut up, for once, get out of my game!. #eraseWukLamat. https://www.youtube.com/clip/Ugkx-P2...6plIoUNYR91Bei. Zepla keep going! You are amazing!

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Thanks for the heads up on this. I don't have the energy to watch the main FFXIV influencers play FFXIV for too long, or on a regular basis, so when people post clips here I do really appreciate it. Zepla I particularly enjoy lately because her level of tired and frustration with the MSQ and Wuk Lamat resonates with me more than anyone else I have seen.

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Originally Posted by Althalan

OMG just saw Zepla's playthrough during Living Memory. Check it out!. After the devastating, beautiful scene when Erenville says goodbye to his mother and we see her return to the the Lifestream, Wuk Lamat interrupts the moment and practically says "OK we are done here". Zepla inmediately ravages her by saying BITCH this is NOT about you, shut up, for once, get out of my game!. #eraseWukLamat. https://www.youtube.com/clip/Ugkx-P2...6plIoUNYR91Bei. Zepla keep going! You are amazing!

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What was her reaction to the godawful acting during Namikka and Wuk Lamat's goodbye?

Imagine you work hard in your company for years, you finally get a week off holiday, you plan everything, you are excited.

Only for your most annoying friend to come together with you uninvited, but it didnt just stop there, he forced you to go where he want to, he the one do the talking for you, he came to your room every night, he is the one who play the attraction not you, he the one who meet new people not you, he dont has personal space at all, and everytime he did something he give this "i did good right? Iam a good friend right?" look to you and you being a natural decent person cant help but say yes to him

This is how i felt throughtout msq, i though this is suppose to be my holiday? Why it become her holiday instead yoshi? Wtf?

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Originally Posted by Voidmage

Nono, you missunderstand me. I'm not saying he as no tropes. I'm saying he deosn't feel like it.

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The point is he IS one, and he certainly felt like one to me. Because these characters only have limited amount of time and because they must 'cause some soft impact that the players can feel or related to, they're often given very strong first impression. What you are describing isn't the trope, just different examples of how the trope is used. The existence of these characters, they are the trope themselves. Gulool Ja Ja pretty much followed this formula to a T.

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Sorry but this here I don't understand.
You are using psychological problems here. Gulool JaJa was absolutely not an abusing parent or something.

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That's not what I'm saying. Say if you have a parents that spoiled their kids rotten, it's very likely the kids will see the parents as the world to them ... but if that's all to it ... that's not good parenting isn't? The point is, good parenting isn't just about making sure the kids love and respect you, but also making sure they grow up well adjusted and well prepared for the challenge that will await them. And I'm sorry, there is no way Gulool Ja Ja would earn a passing mark for the second part.

- If he had planned for the children to success him, shouldn't he started prepare them for that like ... years ago?

- The rite of succession should be like the graduation exam for the children ability to rule, not their FIRST lesson to kingship.

- Wuk and Koana were completely oblivious to most of the land culture and history, while Zoraal Ja suffered a depression so deep it turned into a delusion. (I don't believe Zoraal Ja ever care about his people, his belief in war is basically a way for him to cope with his depression).


And the worst part ... just like the Maamo Ja's story, Gulool Ja ja know about this. The scene after our duel where he admit that none of his children are ready, then declare "well if they're not ready after this I'll just kick their arse and continue to rule muahahaha" triggered me. Now I'm pretty sure the writers thought this scene make him look cool and badarse - which is what they're trying to do with character of this trope. But I was like ... you know they are your children right? If none of them are ready to rule ... whose fault you think that is? So why do you act like it's not your problem!?!?b I'm sorry, the callousness of this scene ensure there is no way anyone can convince me Gulool Ja ja is a good parents.

You know we actually have a pretty close comparison to Gulool Ja Ja. I presented to you ... G'raha. You actually can draw a lot parallel between Gulool Ja Ja's rule and G'raha in the first:

- They are both savior and united their people.

- They both usher the population into a period of stability and prosperity.

- We enter their story at the tail end of their rule.

- G'raha also had an adoptive (grand)daughter, Lyna.

We also didn't see much of direct rulership from G'raha but unlike Gulool, we actually got enough exposition to get a good idea about it. G'raha made sure to set up the structure and organizations of the Crystarium in a way that they are ready for his eventual departure. Comparing that to Gulool's last minute search for a successor and ... well?

I don't think I need to describe how beautifully and masterfully crafted the dynamic between Lyna and G'raha? The fact that Gulool Ja Ja have THREE children yet the story manage to give us almost zero exposition on this kind of dynamic is ... kinda amazing really.

It really just show the gap between the writing of DT and previous expansion. And as a I had expressed before (in another thread), I'm someone who always tie the characters to their writing. So bad writing = bad characters, as simple as that.

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Originally Posted by Althalan

OMG just saw Zepla's playthrough during Living Memory. Check it out!. After the devastating, beautiful scene when Erenville says goodbye to his mother and we see her return to the the Lifestream, Wuk Lamat interrupts the moment and practically says "OK we are done here". Zepla inmediately ravages her by saying BITCH this is NOT about you, shut up, for once, get out of my game!. #eraseWukLamat. https://www.youtube.com/clip/Ugkx-P2...6plIoUNYR91Bei. Zepla keep going! You are amazing!

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Going further ahead in that to the end of the trial and she has a little bit of a meltdown over that garbage too.

I thought I'd add in my own contribution to this thread, since Highlander Clone seems to be collecting them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjTSlnGDMl4

For those who may not want to go all the way through, although I'm not enamored with Wuk Lamat, I don't think the basic idea of her character is wrong...it's just that there's a combination of too much passive gameplay, mediocre writing and an overabundance of Wuk Lamat at the expense of other characters.

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Originally Posted by Althalan

OMG just saw Zepla's playthrough during Living Memory. Check it out!. After the devastating, beautiful scene when Erenville says goodbye to his mother and we see her return to the the Lifestream, Wuk Lamat interrupts the moment and practically says "OK we are done here". Zepla inmediately ravages her by saying BITCH this is NOT about you, shut up, for once, get out of my game!. #eraseWukLamat. https://www.youtube.com/clip/Ugkx-P2...6plIoUNYR91Bei. Zepla keep going! You are amazing!

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Something to note: No one got to have their special moment in this expac. No one except Wuk Lamat of course. When it comes to Koanna's growth, Wuk Lamat has to be crammed in there to say her piece. When Erenville's MOTHER DIED and he had JUST WATCHED HIS MOTHER DIE, Wuk Lamat starts yapping and then we just move on? Just like that? There was a whole scene with Urianger meeting Moenbryda's parents where they were given some space to handle their grief. Even Krile, who has insane lore developments doesn't get to have her special moment. The earring that started this whole journey and led us here - the one from Krile's dad Galuf? The one that turned out to be the key to the golden city after Krile's real name was revealed? Krile didn't get to use it. She had to share her special moment with some kid that didn't have a place in the story at all. She had to give it to some random minor side-character and then that character got to open the door for her. And that was it. That was Krile's moment.

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Originally Posted by All_Nonsense

Something to note: No one got to have their special moment in this expac. No one except Wuk Lamat of course. When it comes to Koanna's growth, Wuk Lamat has to be crammed in there to say her piece. When Erenville's MOTHER DIED and he had JUST WATCHED HIS MOTHER DIE, Wuk Lamat starts yapping and then we just move on? Just like that? There was a whole scene with Urianger meeting Moenbryda's parents where they were given some space to handle their grief. Even Krile, who has insane lore developments doesn't get to have her special moment. The earring that started this whole journey and led us here - the one from Krile's dad Galuf? The one that turned out to be the key to the golden city after Krile's real name was revealed? Krile didn't get to use it. She had to share her special moment with some kid that didn't have a place in the story at all. She had to give it to some random minor side-character and then that character got to open the door for her. And that was it. That was Krile's moment.

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It's even more frustrating when you consider that her only meaningful contribution was introducing Pictomancer...in a duty where Wuk Lamat takes up 90% of the screen time. And that happens before Dawntrail proper.

It'd have been fun if we did a Thancred-like instance like what we did in Shadowbringers or Endwalker. Or if Krile did anything beyond just stand and go 'I agree with Wuk Lamat.'

I don't even really care about Krile. Like, she's not my favorite character or anything, but it's disappointing that no characters really get an opportunity to shine in this expansion. Except one.

Yoshi better say something for next livestream, at least confirming that they put too much wuk lamat in it and promose to make her less appear on next story or something

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Originally Posted by lolnotacat

You bring up a good point. They were trying to be "respectful" of cultures, but then they sanitize something that was a part of early American culture? Yes, duels didn't historically happen all the time like in the movies, but they did happen. Hell one of our founding fathers was killed in a duel with the vice president. And one of our presidents, Andrew Jackson was a notorious duelist.

If they didn't want to have the duel end in death, there are ways around it. Historically, many duels were about honor. Both participants would just shoot into the ground because they had no intention to harm each other. Also before the invention of rifling, a lot of duels just ended with both participants missing each other, shrugging their shoulders because honor was satisfied, and goin home.

Whatever "cultural sensitivities" CBU3 was adhering to seems to be directed towards a group of people who wouldn't care that they got American culture wrong.

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What's more likely is the consultants they hired to help them with "cultural sensitivities" view that aspect of American culture and history as a problem that needs to be fixed, and their writing is their way of trying to "clean it up." Honestly, if they were going to go Old West and think guns are icky, they could have at least done a poker match or something to that effect rather than the lame airsoft LARPing session they wrote instead. Or better yet, not done a really weak rendition of an Old West zone. I'd say they could go for a more pre-Columbian route, but with how disrespectful they were in Tural, they'd probably handle a pre-Columbian US about as well as Peter Pan or 1940s Looney Tunes did.

Did they say the bullets are rubber in Japanese as well, or is it just an English localization?

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Originally Posted by All_Nonsense

When Erenville's MOTHER DIED and he had JUST WATCHED HIS MOTHER DIE, Wuk Lamat starts yapping and then we just move on? Just like that?

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Not just that, but Wuk Lamat, God-Queen of Empathy and Friendship, who had just lost her father very shortly before, takes her supposed best friend watching his mother die with a "damn that sucks moving on." All of the Scions are convinced she's a wonderful person, by the way, even the one that shares the Echo and occasionally gets a peek behind the fourth wall along with you. Nothing about her character makes sense unless she was written by someone that thinks self-serving posturing and patronizing are the keys to being a good and decent person rather than actually going out of your way for others that are in need and knowing how to put yourself in someone else's shoes.

It is not her fault, it is just the whole universe (expansion) revolves around her.

She said I want peace and people came to her to exchange high value goods for low value ones so she can pass the trial; she wanted to relive her childhood festival experience and all of a sudden it fixed the crops issue; she wanted to befriend some would-be slavers who tried to enslave her and it turned out fine; she wanted to bring lizard people peace and her brother just abruptly forfeited his right of claimant, and provided a solution to the crops issue no one would care to solve for hundreds of years and thus suspended the lizard people's desire to expand...Of course she just preaches she loves peace again and again as it is all she needed to become the dawnservant.

The power of friendship is all she needs to solve all the obstacles: Bakool Ja Ja used to single handedly stopped her attack which she admitted that she “gave it all", but after a few days she beats the crap of Bakool Ja Ja and his dozens of lackeys while WOL stands watching. A few days in heritage foundry and her nation just developed enough tech to repeal floating carriers and laser shooting robots. Her power grew so much with "friendship" that she butted in the final battle, holding off the giant death robot's attack all on her own...Of cause she preaches power of friendship for the thousandth time as it just works.

To be fair, her character arc is so genuine because why on the green earth she wants to grow or develop anything when she succeed in becoming dawnservant and saving the world with her bravado and everyone loves the smell of her fart.

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Originally Posted by gumas

Yoshi better say something for next livestream, at least confirming that they put too much wuk lamat in it and promose to make her less appear on next story or something

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I doubt it'll get mentioned at all, and I think that his comment on 'throwing many things at a wall to determine what comes next' isn't going to apply to the patch MSQ until 7.3 when DT likely ends and we move on to setup of 8.0. Development takes time and 7.1 is likely already operating without any story feedback.

I do think, however, that the team are currently all hands on deck trying to figure out what went wrong. Yoshi-P has stated in interviews that they may experiment and end up doing things that don't work, but they absolutely try to avoid doing ANYTHING that will upset or disappoint large portions of the player base. This is why they respond to fan feedback by giving Erenville his own expansion, or bringing Emet back in EW. It's probably why Estinien ended up a Scion too.

This is to say that the writers full-throatedly believed that fans would universally adore Wuk Lamat and would want her around at all times. Not only that, but they believed that we would love Wuk Lamat so much that we'd be okay with the Scions doing absolutely nothing in favour of giving her more screen time. It was a gamble: an ill-considered, poorly researched, high risk/low reward gamble from a Dev team that should have learned these lessons already, but Yoshi-P can't come out and admit there's an issue because his role is ultimately to protect his writers as the guy who has final say on everything.

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Originally Posted by Crocops

It is not her fault, it is just the whole universe (expansion) revolves around her.

She said I want peace and people came to her to exchange high value goods for low value ones so she can pass the trial; she wanted to relive her childhood festival experience and all of a sudden it fixed the crops issue; she wanted to befriend some would-be slavers who tried to enslave her and it turned out fine; she wanted to bring lizard people peace and her brother just abruptly forfeited his right of claimant, and provided a solution to the crops issue no one would care to solve for hundreds of years and thus suspended the lizard people's desire to expand...Of course she just preaches she loves peace again and again as it is all she needed to become the dawnservant.

The power of friendship is all she needs to solve all the obstacles: Bakool Ja Ja used to single handedly stopped her attack which she admitted that she “gave it all", but after a few days she beats the crap of Bakool Ja Ja and his dozens of lackeys while WOL stands watching. A few days in heritage foundry and her nation just developed enough tech to repeal floating carriers and laser shooting robots. Her power grew so much with "friendship" that she butted in the final battle, holding off the giant death robot's attack all on her own...Of cause she preaches power of friendship for the thousandth time as it just works.

To be fair, her character arc is so genuine because why on the green earth she wants to grow or develop anything when she succeed in becoming dawnservant and saving the world with her bravado and everyone loves the smell of her fart.

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Yeah this is one of my biggest complaints about Wuk Lamat. She doesn't really grow within the story so much as the story conforms to Wuk Lumat to give the impression that she's growing. To me that's the big difference between Wuk Lamat's story and what went wrong, and what went right with Zero's story (although I know some people here aren't the biggest fan of her either).

The other problem just being that Wuk Lamat is just so oppressive and butts in on every scene. That quoted clip on Zep's vid really nailed that--so did the classic "SPHEEEENEEE" meme.

I don't even necessarily think Wuk Lamat is a horrible character as a concept, but if you oversalt a dish you're going to spoil the dish, and if you use salt where you should have used sugar, you're going to spoil the dish too. DT does both with Wuk Lamat.

I just cant help having this feeling that this expansion is handled by B team or something like that

There is lot of thing that feel so wrong about the expansion, story felt boring for me, pacing is all over the place, the “violance” was dial down to almost disney level (rubber bullet), class problem like generic dash, why dragoon gap closer jump is remove and change to generic dash? its dragoon for out loud, monk balls system felt forced, skill after using self buff ability with 120s cooldown to all classrs, machinist double check and checkmate being literally the same, and so on)

I hope next patch/livestream they will talk about it, they have to, there is just so many things felt off about this whole expansion

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Originally Posted by Mortex

Strong writing

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Did I defend the writing anywhere? No.
I know it's crap and that scene is the best example of it because it goes completely against his established character.

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

The point is he IS one, and he certainly felt like one to me. Because these characters only have limited amount of time and because they must 'cause some soft impact that the players can feel or related to, they're often given very strong first impression. What you are describing isn't the trope, just different examples of how the trope is used. The existence of these characters, they are the trope themselves. Gulool Ja Ja pretty much followed this formula to a T.

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Again, I don't disagree that he is a trope or that the other characters are that but that it is used in a correct way.
Every single character in this game is one trope and a little bit of others next to it nothing more.
He isn't more of a walking trope then the scions are.

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That's not what I'm saying. Say if you have a parents that spoiled their kids rotten, it's very likely the kids will see the parents as the world to them ... but if that's all to it ... that's not good parenting isn't? The point is, good parenting isn't just about making sure the kids love and respect you, but also making sure they grow up well adjusted and well prepared for the challenge that will await them. And I'm sorry, there is no way Gulool Ja Ja would earn a passing mark for the second part.

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No, parenting is a complex thing in itself. You can be a perfect parent and still have kids that do things in a way that is not good.
But that's not my point.
You all go around saying he was a bad father with your theories when even the game makes it clear that he was anything like that.
Two of his children clearly loved him and the third wanted to prove himself to get out of his status as miracle. That was his own complex. His father probably could have told him that he is great and all and Zarool Ja would still have his complex because that's his personality.
I agree that there was obious favourism regarding Wuk Lamat from her father but that's a problem with the writing because all ingame text from other people suggests otherwise.

We can't use every shortcoming of the three children and say "yeah that's the fault of their father". They are their own people, they are adults.

On the whole G'raha Tia thing.
Again, you just list things I agree with. The writing is bad, not the character himself.
If the roles where switched we wouldn't even be talking about Gulool JaJa.


Anyway the likes on the comments show that I'm more or less alone with my standpoint so whatever. You all do you. I said what I wanted to say.
If you want to see Gulool JaJa as a horrible parent and ruler I don't mind. That's your opinion and I won't change mine.

All I'm saying at the end is:
DT story writing was bad and I hate it, but even there a few good things can be found.

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Originally Posted by gumas

I just cant help having this feeling that this expansion is handled by B team or something like that

There is lot of thing that feel so wrong about the expansion, story felt boring for me, pacing is all over the place, the “violance” was dial down to almost disney level (rubber bullet), class problem like generic dash, why dragoon gap closer jump is remove and change to generic dash? its dragoon for out loud, monk balls system felt forced, skill after using self buff ability with 120s cooldown to all classrs, machinist double check and checkmate being literally the same, and so on)

I hope next patch/livestream they will talk about it, they have to, there is just so many things felt off about this whole expansion

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Compared to Ishikawa I think anyone might be B Team, but it still mystifies me that DT has had so many fundamental issues with its storytelling. You say B team, but this B team was the same group that did a fairly good job of fixing Lahabrea. That's the part that mystifies me.

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Originally Posted by Althalan

OMG just saw Zepla's playthrough during Living Memory. Check it out!. After the devastating, beautiful scene when Erenville says goodbye to his mother and we see her return to the the Lifestream, Wuk Lamat interrupts the moment and practically says "OK we are done here". Zepla inmediately ravages her by saying BITCH this is NOT about you, shut up, for once, get out of my game!. #eraseWukLamat. https://www.youtube.com/clip/Ugkx-P2...6plIoUNYR91Bei. Zepla keep going! You are amazing!

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That was good to see. It truly was a certified Wuk Lamat moment. Not even an "Oh no! Anyway..." moment, our Lamaty'i couldn't even bother with the "oh no" part. Such love, such empathy! I see Zepla had some amazing reactions to other parts as well. I could definitely sympathise with her when the credits ended and Wuk Lamat barged in once more, as if to make up for having some other people in the end credits screenshots too. And then when that cutscene ended with Erenville and WoL talking to each other instead of Wuk Lamat, they just had to make sure she had the absolute lastest of the last word on that bit by making you speak with her one more time. I'm astonished the very last scene didn't end with her breaking through the screen for one final "That's all, folks!"

To me the end scenes were also a final reminder of why I never felt properly relaxed in the inn, by the way. She knows where we sleep and we'll never know peace. They had so many quests and cutscenes near the reception, some of which actively prevented you from entering the inn to see to your retainers or glams or do anything at all to get a break from the never-ending Wuk Lamat cutscene show. It's a lovely cabin, but I still half-expect her to come knocking on the door again.

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Originally Posted by Sairaag

To me the end scenes were also a final reminder of why I never felt properly relaxed in the inn, by the way. She knows where we sleep and we'll never know peace.

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Seems apt to repost this:

https://i.imgur.com/ztIteI9.png

(Not mine btw)

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Originally Posted by Midare

Seems apt to repost this:

https://i.imgur.com/ztIteI9.png

(Not mine btw)

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https://media1.tenor.com/m/pSn6OXLW1...or-disgust.gif

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Originally Posted by Basteala

You say B team, but this B team was the same group that did a fairly good job of fixing Lahabrea. That's the part that mystifies me.

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Lots of authors go off the rails without a ruthless editor standing over their shoulder, they start writing encyclopedias or disappearing down narrative rabbit holes. This whole affairs stinks to me of "no oversight" the producers and editors went on holidays after handing everything to the juniors and didn't check back until it was too late and we're about to publish. This would also account for the awful pacing issues because no senior played through early and thought "WTH is this visual novel nonsense".

Honestly, bar wuk lamat, my biggest issue with the story is that it all felt incredibly childish like babies first final fantasy. Everything is solved by the power of friendship, there's absolutely no real conflict between cultures that were at war not too long ago, and even when it gets a bit darker like Erenvilles mum it's just brushed aside. They said it'd be on the level of arr but even that was more interesting and far darker. Arr had murder, conflict, kidnapping, Edda, the garlan empire, Nanamo being poisoned, Rabahn going ape shit and killing lalas. What did Dawntrail have other than Wuk Lamat, tacos, and the power of friendship?

edit: sorry if this isn't the right thread for this but I just needed to vent really.

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Originally Posted by Zaniel

This would also account for the awful pacing issues because no senior played through early and thought "WTH is this visual novel nonsense".

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I hate how since ever Steam popularize and make VN more mainstream, I keep seeing more and more comparison like this as if it's a hip things to do.

DT WISHED it were a proper visual novel. But a $15 nukige probably have better writing and pacing than this.

Most of the so called "VN" these days are writen by wannabe novelist. They're not VN, they are often self-insert fan fic with pictures ... which is very similar to DT, seeing how it's basically a self-insert fan fic with a budget.

And yes, I know of the writer in charge wrote a obscured otome VN, if he was in charge of wring WL that would explain the whole harem set up around her.

But by gosh I wish DT were a decent VN, I wouldn't mind. Sure there maybe less gameplay but at least the writing and pacing would be 3 times better than what we're having.

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Originally Posted by Basteala

I don't even necessarily think Wuk Lamat is a horrible character as a concept, but if you oversalt a dish you're going to spoil the dish, and if you use salt where you should have used sugar, you're going to spoil the dish too. DT does both with Wuk Lamat.

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That's the thing. There are the makings of a fun character there and there is room for a meathead with a heart of gold character with the Scions, especially now that Yda/Lyse changed and is off doing her own thing. The execution from English VA casting to writing is just so awful that now anything positive has been irreparably damaged and people will just roll their eyes when they bump into her in later expacs. I'm expecting the next expac to play it very safe after two poorly received character introductions in a row now, and that's too bad. A major part of the DT MSQ's problems is they didn't take enough risks, and the ones they did take were catastrophically blundered. I hope they don't learn the wrong lesson from all of this.

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Originally Posted by Cerbolt

Honestly, bar wuk lamat, my biggest issue with the story is that it all felt incredibly childish like babies first final fantasy. Everything is solved by the power of friendship, there's absolutely no real conflict between cultures that were at war not too long ago, and even when it gets a bit darker like Erenvilles mum it's just brushed aside. They said it'd be on the level of arr but even that was more interesting and far darker. Arr had murder, conflict, kidnapping, Edda, the garlan empire, Nanamo being poisoned, Rabahn going ape shit and killing lalas. What did Dawntrail have other than Wuk Lamat, tacos, and the power of friendship?

edit: sorry if this isn't the right thread for this but I just needed to vent really.

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I think a lot of people forget about things like the massacre at the Waking Sands when they think back to 2.0.

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Originally Posted by Daralii

I think a lot of people forget about things like the massacre at the Waking Sands when they think back to 2.0.

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That and people always forget that ARR showed us how deadly adventuring can be with the adventurers dying in the first dungeons.
There is also the whole thing with the elementals in Gridania or the poor people right infront of Ul'dah.

There was so much grity stuff in ARR, DT should be ashamed of itself because it's a completely unrealistic world.

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Originally Posted by Drimn

That's the thing. There are the makings of a fun character there and there is room for a meathead with a heart of gold character with the Scions, especially now that Yda/Lyse changed and is off doing her own thing. The execution from English VA casting to writing is just so awful that now anything positive has been irreparably damaged and people will just roll their eyes when they bump into her in later expacs. I'm expecting the next expac to play it very safe after two poorly received character introductions in a row now, and that's too bad. A major part of the DT MSQ's problems is they didn't take enough risks, and the ones they did take were catastrophically blundered. I hope they don't learn the wrong lesson from all of this.

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There was this short scene in the Endwalker patch where Wuk slaps G'raha on the back and he gives her this surprised, uncomfortable look as he nearly falls over. I really liked that scene, because it made her look a bit more Tomboyish, almost dude-bro levels of extrovertedness that could have at times caused issues with her misreading the room or maybe relationships and she'd have to learn to be a bit more understanding of others (and her people wink wink).

But no, the Wuk we got in Dawntrail is ... relatively feminine, all things considered? Almost stereotypically-so actually, where her strength actually comes more from the inside and then she's given cute flaws like being a klutz and playfully emotional to make her endearing. If we swapped her out of Warrior without changing anything else there wouldn't be anything egregious that pops out. The Scions all have a job that suits them. Thancred's a bodyguard, Alisaie is the more aggressive of what is ultimately very supportive twins, Urianger is mysterious, etc, etc. Wuk has a heart of gold, and so she's a warrior, and that's fiiiine but ... I feel like that's not enough.

I ... actually kind of want to blame the VA here as well. I wonder how I'd feel going through DT with JP voices. Unfortunately I'm not enough of a masochist to actually go through DT more than once.

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Originally Posted by LisseyCrowe

I wonder how I'd feel going through DT with JP voices. Unfortunately I'm not enough of a masochist to actually go through DT more than once.

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This is the saddest part for me, that there's a FFXIV DLC I'm NOT excited to play nor wanna replay ever again. It's been my ritual to replay the entire MSQ whenever a new expac is coming as a review of sorts and I think this is the 1st time I'm skipping an expac and just stopping right at 6.55 and then go straight to 8.0 when I replay it. IF I'm still playing by the time 8.0 comes round that is.

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Originally Posted by Drimn

I'd say they could go for a more pre-Columbian route, but with how disrespectful they were in Tural, they'd probably handle a pre-Columbian US about as well as Peter Pan or 1940s Looney Tunes did.

Did they say the bullets are rubber in Japanese as well, or is it just an English localization?
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Point of order, Neverland isn't America - it's a place where things "never were" are, hence the name, Neverland. Everything there is a caricature - complete make-believe.

But to your question, I'll go check. I'll need to change the client language to Japanese, take a screenshot of the relevant dialog, and run it through a text parser.

in german they dont say specifically rubber, but it has the same meaning.

have they always a special not deadly gun around? or do they have to change ammo first when they get attacked by monsters?