Will Relics create the same problems that they did in FFXI?

How is it a problem that one player puts in effort to get a relic (XI was way harder, but XIV is still effort.) and players that can't be bothered doing it have worse weapons? I don't get your logic, OP. Explain?

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Originally Posted by faris

How is it a problem that one player puts in effort to get a relic (XI was way harder, but XIV is still effort.) and players that can't be bothered doing it have worse weapons? I don't get your logic, OP. Explain?

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The issue I believe the OP is raising is that relics become a sort of cap; nothing can transcend them and therefore every weapon released post relic will be inferior. And because of that, progression can become a bit dull. And when you pump out relics before a game has really started, that becomes a pretty big issue

Now, will the game progress like that? No clue. I already made a point about situational equipment that excels in specific situations over relics

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Originally Posted by Dzian

you'd go through the ball ache of grinding limbus zones to get keys but it was near impossible to walk out of ultima omega with nothing.

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Actually probably one of the better points in this thread, regardless which side of the discussion you are on. AV and PW were 2 other great examples. Moderate grind (farming triggers) followed by a heavy element of skill.. AV and PW were no joke at 75 cap - to me that has a very heavy weight on skill (for the final fights themselves). I would much prefer a legendary weapon of some sort be based off this system (moderate grind followed by a skill benchmark) to the grind fest that the relic system was based on.

I am looking forward to fighting bigger and tougher bosses to upgrade the current relics I have.

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Originally Posted by Jocko

The issue I believe the OP is raising is that relics become a sort of cap; nothing can transcend them and therefore every weapon released post relic will be inferior. And because of that, progression can become a bit dull. And when you pump out relics before a game has really started, that becomes a pretty big issue

Now, will the game progress like that? No clue. I already made a point about about situational equipment that excels in specific situations over relics

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Ohhhh. Yeah, I agree. If I were to put money on it, I'd totally think SE'd come out with some situational stuff as good as/better than relic in certain situations. Or Mythic equivalent.

In a way FFXI relic was easier because it was all about farming gil. FFXIV relics are impossible to do without a set group. If everyone you knew quit FFXIV and you had a mostly empty LS getting relic in FFXIV was almost impossible.

The hardest part about getting a FFXIV relic was finding a consistent group to play FFXIV with.

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Originally Posted by faris

Ohhhh. Yeah, I agree. If I were to put money on it, I'd totally think SE'd come out with some situational stuff as good as/better than relic in certain situations. Or Mythic equivalent.

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The "situational" stuff I would prefer to see is 1 different series of legendary weapons that focuses on DAMAGE, another that focuses on UTILITY, and another that focuses on VERSATILITY. I like options.

*edit* better example.

MNK-
DMG - higher DPS, base dmg, etc
Utility - elemental fist enhancments (say increased affinity bonus with correct fist etc)
Versatility - Tanking/solo (Evasion, second wind enhancements)

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Originally Posted by Zumi

In a way FFXI relic was easier because it was all about farming gil. FFXIV relics are impossible to do without a set group. If everyone you knew quit FFXIV and you had a mostly empty LS getting relic in FFXIV was almost impossible.

The hardest part about getting a FFXIV relic was finding a consistent group to play FFXIV with.

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all the LS's that have dedicated to the game are all full up, and there are simply too may linkshells for the pathetic amount of players that are remaining, if there were less Klicks and Leaders with Massive Egos more people would be upto the grand old idea of merging Linkshells.

Between the E-peen, Ego Flaunter's and the sad Klick Groups, this games actual community lies in shambles.

this whole thread is moot, it's been already said that the relics would be upgradeable

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Originally Posted by Jocko

The issue I believe the OP is raising is that relics become a sort of cap; nothing can transcend them and therefore every weapon released post relic will be inferior. And because of that, progression can become a bit dull. And when you pump out relics before a game has really started, that becomes a pretty big issue

Now, will the game progress like that? No clue. I already made a point about situational equipment that excels in specific situations over relics

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I personally didn't feel like that was a problem... I mean really they were so much more powerful than normal weapons, it's like if you added something to XIV that gave 500 STR... even with better weapons being added gradually it'd take a long time for something to equal that.

And really it's good to have a cap in place, you don't want drastic changes in stats every few months. Think about how rare darklight is, when it takes you 6 months to get it all you don't want something that makes it as worthless as AF to be released the next week? If something comes out that's slightly better then you can live with it.

As far as relics it's better to have a super powered weapon only 10 people per server can obtain yearly and is the best for the rest of the game's life than something takes 6 months (or two days), that everybody can get and then is worthless in a year.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

In a way FFXI relic was easier because it was all about farming gil. FFXIV relics are impossible to do without a set group. If everyone you knew quit FFXIV and you had a mostly empty LS getting relic in FFXIV was almost impossible.

The hardest part about getting a FFXIV relic was finding a consistent group to play FFXIV with.

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You had to have a consistent group for FFXI as well. Yea you could /sh for a pug dynamis run, but you weren't going to do very well and typically end up losing money. A lot of money. So it wasn't really practical. Dynamis took a lot of coordination to get the pulls/sleeps/kill order down.

Not to mention getting items like:
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/At...on_of_Celerity
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Ornate_Fragment.
Which DEFINATELY could not be accomplished with a bunch of pugged knuckleheads.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

In its prime for I would say 1 dynamis run would yield 12m worth of currency. The run only cost 1m, you can promise people AF2 and they can be happy with that but a lot of the AF2 wasn't that great so in essence if someone sponsored a run they made out like a bandit, in terms of gil made, you may or may not of got your AF2.

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But if the end result is you completing a relic who cares what the currency was worth? That wasn't your intention. The only way you benefited from something like that is if you were on a Byne Bill stage and farmed Sandy for Silverpieces. Then sold the Silverpieces to purchase Bynes.

I'm really starting to wondering how in-depth YOUR dynamis experiences were....

I do hope they make relics much more desirable for casters in FFXIV than they were FFXI. Caster relics in XI were a waste of gil/linkshell members time.

I think yoshi said these would be the best, but im still kinda hoping that these are like artifact weapons from ffxi and we get like actual relics like in ffxi some other way. i want relics to come with some unique weapon skill or ability D: qq

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Originally Posted by Zumi

In its prime for I would say 1 dynamis run would yield 12m worth of currency. The run only cost 1m, you can promise people AF2 and they can be happy with that but a lot of the AF2 wasn't that great so in essence if someone sponsored a run they made out like a bandit, in terms of gil made, you may or may not of got your AF2.

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Depends on the server really, anyways we did it smart and once we hit a threshold for cash (Generally 2-3 mill worth of currency) any currency would free drop netting most members 10-50k if they got lucky and again the chance at your AF2 (Wich in many cases at least one peice was a good incentive).

People seem so intent on making Dynamis and Relics in XI seem like it was a grueling cruel process...when it was far from it. You only got "Used" if you let yourself be, if your doing something for nothing then your doing it wrong.

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Originally Posted by Destain

Really? Where is yours?

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How many times are people going to say this?

Relics in this game are not hard to obtain, they are simply time consuming. I don't have one because I didn't attempt to get one; I don't want any of the current relics, I only have interest in Summoner.

There is no way for these "relics" to create the same "problems" that were inherent to FFXI's.

Let's go down the list, here...

FFXI

+Entire event created with the intent of promoting Relic Weaponry, "Relic Armor" as an incentive for better participation
+Created a strong economical flow, often paying out proportionately to the group's skill and giving others a chance of investment
+Outstandingly above other weapons, were vibrantly different to look at, and contained their own WS
+Continued to be THE weapon for each class (well, okay, not lolClaustrum) for the entirety of the game's relevant life

-Were reserved for the LS' inner clique (Some LS sponsored people in exchange for gil, comparatively rarer occurrence)
-Required a very large mass of people over a 6 month period for the sake of 1 person
-Final Destination for most endgame players, ennui generated at a rapid pace once you got one (Unless you're Kirschy)
-Drama. Oh, the drama.

FFXIV

+Unique animations, wholly unique models, several have particle effects
+Procurement pulls from several different sources of content
+Future-proof in a productive way
+Content designed with a tight-knit group of 6 players in mind

-Requires RNG favor or being excessively rich
-Are significantly underwhelming stat-wise (particularly for the effort involved as opposed to the Garuda weapons)
-Do nothing special for their Jobs (slight cooldown reductions and song durations is minor and unremarkable)
-Introduced no actual content outside of a cloned boss fight


They don't follow the same path at all. There is no way that these can ever be the same sort of affair. Why? It took great efforts by a collective force before relics manifested in FFXI, and they were a huge deal to everyone once one was made.

The only thing that stopped hundreds of individual players from having all FFXIV relics in the first month was the artificial extension of the quest via the patches. You could count on one hand the amount of people in pre-abyssea FFXI who had every relic after years of nonstop commitment.

I still suspect that "AF Weapons" were rushed into being "relic weapons" as a means of resource allocation and sort of an "eyecatcher" to keep the hardcore playing during the doldrums that was XIV post-1.21. For too long they referred to them as "AF weapons", and we already get to see them equipped on all of the "AF quest" NPCs. They don't feel unique or special, they don't have stories behind them, they're just pretty and have solid (if dry, mechanical) stats. Sounds like an AF weapon to me.

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Originally Posted by Valmonte

all the LS's that have dedicated to the game are all full up, and there are simply too may linkshells for the pathetic amount of players that are remaining, if there were less Klicks and Leaders with Massive Egos more people would be upto the grand old idea of merging Linkshells.

Between the E-peen, Ego Flaunter's and the sad Klick Groups, this games actual community lies in shambles.

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That happen in every mmo if you don't find your own klicks your pretty much fucked for most of your game life. But in FFXIV is the worth from day one of ffxiv it happen everyone just make shit load of leaders. Maybe if you did not need 8 people to do everything more people would have ls lol like ffxi where you had over 36+players in one linkshell doing events.

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Originally Posted by Tsubarta

There is no way for these "relics" to create the same "problems" that were inherent to FFXI's.

Let's go down the list, here...

FFXI

+Entire event created with the intent of promoting Relic Weaponry, "Relic Armor" as an incentive for better participation
+Created a strong economical flow, often paying out proportionately to the group's skill and giving others a chance of investment
+Outstandingly above other weapons, were vibrantly different to look at, and contained their own WS
+Continued to be THE weapon for each class (well, okay, not lolClaustrum) for the entirety of the game's relevant life

-Were reserved for the LS' inner clique (Some LS sponsored people in exchange for gil, comparatively rarer occurrence)
-Required a very large mass of people over a 6 month period for the sake of 1 person
-Final Destination for most endgame players, ennui generated at a rapid pace once you got one (Unless you're Kirschy)
-Drama. Oh, the drama.

FFXIV

+Unique animations, wholly unique models, several have particle effects
+Procurement pulls from several different sources of content
+Future-proof in a productive way
+Content designed with a tight-knit group of 6 players in mind

-Requires RNG favor or being excessively rich
-Are significantly underwhelming stat-wise (particularly for the effort involved as opposed to the Garuda weapons)
-Do nothing special for their Jobs (slight cooldown reductions and song durations is minor and unremarkable)
-Introduced no actual content outside of a cloned boss fight


They don't follow the same path at all. There is no way that these can ever be the same sort of affair. Why? It took great efforts by a collective force before relics manifested in FFXI, and they were a huge deal to everyone once one was made.

The only thing that stopped hundreds of individual players from having all FFXIV relics in the first month was the artificial extension of the quest via the patches. You could count on one hand the amount of people in pre-abyssea FFXI who had every relic after years of nonstop commitment.

I still suspect that "AF Weapons" were rushed into being "relic weapons" as a means of resource allocation and sort of an "eyecatcher" to keep the hardcore playing during the doldrums that was XIV post-1.21. For too long they referred to them as "AF weapons", and we already get to see them equipped on all of the "AF quest" NPCs. They don't feel unique or special, they don't have stories behind them, they're just pretty and have solid (if dry, mechanical) stats. Sounds like an AF weapon to me.

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/endthread

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6 players

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My FFXI age is showing. :x

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Originally Posted by Tsubarta

-Introduced no actual content outside of a cloned boss fight

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cloned

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EX is the relic quest. Everything before that point is baby spit.

Dealing with what this thread has devolved into instead of the OP:

Basically the problem is Elitists have to grasp at straws to feel entitled to content in this game because there really isn't that much in-game that is so time consuming it doesn't boost their ego or make them feel better than everyone else for obtaining it. It's the problems the Elitists are going to have to deal with, SE has ALWAYS stated that FFXIV is more designed for casual gamers. TA is gone, Relics are 'too easy'; maybe these Elitists need to learn how to play a GAME without having to feel they are entitled to content they need to help their self-esteem or egos IRL by looking down on other players who haven't met the same in-game obligations, but still pay the same subscriptions...

its like ppl saying they wish things were back to where u had to walk uphill both ways while snowing in 100 degree weather with no shoes to get to the letter carrier to send a letter someone would receive a month later... instead of sending a text

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Almalexia

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I fail to see your point. It's still an incredibly lazy rehash that artificially increases the difficulty instead of doing something creative with the fight...on top of virtually being the oldest primal battle in the game dug up from the grave. For the finale of the quest to create a relic weapon, it's pathetic no matter how many nails and eruptions spawn. The faction quests are more interesting than that.

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Originally Posted by Yolteotl

Dealing with what this thread has devolved into instead of the OP:

Basically the problem is Elitists have to grasp at straws to feel entitled to content in this game because there really isn't that much in-game that is so time consuming it doesn't boost their ego or make them feel better than everyone else for obtaining it. It's the problems the Elitists are going to have to deal with, SE has ALWAYS stated that FFXIV is more designed for casual gamers. TA is gone, Relics are 'too easy'; maybe these Elitists need to learn how to play a GAME without having to feel they are entitled to content they need to help their self-esteem or egos IRL by looking down on other players who haven't met the same in-game obligations, but still pay the same subscriptions...

its like ppl saying they wish things were back to where u had to walk uphill both ways while snowing in 100 degree weather with no shoes to get to the letter carrier to send a letter someone would receive a month later... instead of sending a text

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Make a game too easy and even the "I'm entitled to everything because I pay for it" crowd will lose interest and leave. The past ten years of MMO history has proven this over and over (looking past the fact most were unfinished, just like this game was).

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Originally Posted by Yolteotl

Basically the problem is Elitists have to grasp at straws to feel entitled to content in this game because there really isn't that much in-game that is so time consuming it doesn't boost their ego or make them feel better than everyone else for obtaining it. It's the problems the Elitists are going to have to deal with, SE has ALWAYS stated that FFXIV is more designed for casual gamers.

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you're projecting. really, really hard. so hard i'm afraid you may burst a vessel.

and do quote where SE has said what you claim they said. if they've always said it, this should be an easy task.

can i predict the future really quickly? you won't. but moving on-

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Originally Posted by Yolteotl

TA is gone

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wrong. TA as a required condition for loot is gone. TA remains alive and well in the form of leaderboards which will show the best clear times per server (perhaps also across all servers).

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Originally Posted by Yolteotl

Relics are 'too easy'; maybe these Elitists need to learn how to play a GAME

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if we find relic too easy to obtain, it would appear we've learned how to play the game quite well. :)

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Originally Posted by Yolteotl

...without having to feel they are entitled to content

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you're projecting again. you should really relax with that. crying your eyes out about how content should be easier so it will cater to YOU, as a more casual player, when yoshi and devs have commented several times about relic being designed more with the hardcore base in mind- smacks of entitlement. trying to pass it off to the hardcores while flipping the script just makes you look desperately delusional.

hardcores have no disillusions about who they are, what they are, what is theirs and what isn't. do we cry about av/cc difficulty? no. do we cry about skirmish difficulty? no. do we cry about quest difficulty? no. do we cry about storyline difficulty? no. do we cry about leve/faction leve difficulty? no. do we cry about primal difficulty? no.

because none of that is designed with us primarily in mind, and we understand that.

but then yoshi and the devs threw us a bone. we got relic quest, ifrit extreme and rivenroad hard. they were sufficiently challenging in the short term, and while we were generally pleased with what the team was able to deliver with such a broken engine- in the end we lamented that the difficulty was either gimmicky (latency) or simply passing (rivenroad), and that maybe relic quest was a touch short.

twist it however you like, but that's reality.

but how about the casuals? well, i give you general forum. take your pick of entitled bitching and moaning threads about wanting every last thing in the game to cater more to their gaming preferences without leaving anything at all to their hardcore counterparts. ifrit extreme? impossible. rivenroad hard? nearly impossible. relic quest? way too long, way too expensive, way too dependent on RNG, and speed runs are a sin against god himself. hamlet seals? impossible. hell, even garuda... which is 100% casual-friendly leaning on the side of difficulty to give them access to a challenge- next to impossible.

and apparently all this is supposed to change based on what they want. that's apparently not entitlement, but if the hardcores ask for even ONE SINGLE THING regarding content yoshi and devs already said is for them- apparently it's they who are entitled. apparently.

except not.

speaking for myself- i don't look down on you because you haven't had the same progress as me in game. what you do with your time is your own business and progress is progress. an accomplishment is an accomplishment. beat garuda recently? good for you. just beat rivenroad hard days before final save? awesome, congrats.

no, you conjure a wonderful straw man but it simply isn't the case. i look down on you because *you* are an entitled crying wanker and *you* have the audacity to then project this onto others. it's truly pathetic.

get over yourself. we do pay the same subscription but the only person i see here asking for handouts, asking for just as much and all of the same without equal effort, asking for things to *only be* the way *they* want it to be and *not* to cater to *anyone else* is YOU. only YOU. THAT is entitlement. THAT is ego.

so it would appear in the end it's *you* thinking you're better than others, *you* trying to assuage your own fragile self-esteem... and your method of doing this is to take everything wrong with yourself and blame it on anyone else.

i get that we're playing a game built on fantasy, but it seems like you've constructed a fantastic new reality of your very own.

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Originally Posted by fusional

;>

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http://i.imgur.com/z5PjM.gif

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Originally Posted by fusional

an entitled crying wanker. it's truly pathetic.

get over yourself.

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/slowclap...

That elitist-attacking post pretty much came out of nowhere lol. Thanks for fixing the problem fusional!

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Originally Posted by Tsubarta

I fail to see your point. It's still an incredibly lazy rehash that artificially increases the difficulty instead of doing something creative with the fight...on top of virtually being the oldest primal battle in the game dug up from the grave. For the finale of the quest to create a relic weapon, it's pathetic no matter how many nails and eruptions spawn. The faction quests are more interesting than that.

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I thought it was legitimately challenging, exhilarating and a worthy component of the relic quest.

But then I actually did the content a great many times. Where did your opinion come from?

Personally I'm fairly middle ground. Not a hard core player. Most definitely not the type to rota events. Monday 7pm event 1, Tuesday 7pm event 2 and so forth. On an adlib basis it's fine, Who's around Monday if there's enough let's do event 1. But I personally draw the line where it becomes every week like clockwork. Anyway all of that isn't to relevent but you can use it to judge if I'm a casual or hardcore somewhere in the middle type player.

I do think though that all content should be designed in a way that makes it accessible to everyone. Whether you play 1 hour a day or 10. This doesn't mean make it easy (easy is boring.) By all means make stuff hard. But being hard doesn't mean innaccessible.

I suppose by way of example I could say Crystal Tower or whatever it is. Give that place 100 floors or something huge like that but design it in such a way that it may take your more casual group of gamers 2-3 days to clear a floor playing for a hour or 2 a day. If they make it to the next floor progress is saved so next time they go in they can begin on that floor. In that end you can slowly climb to the top even being the most casual of players it may take you a year but it's doable and accessible.

For the more hardcore though they could find themselves going up 5-6 even more floors a week and could find themselves at the top floor mega boss in a couple of months. Admittedly I've just remembered Nyzul Isle but I'm thinking something a lot harder than trying to clear 5 floors in 30 minutes.

Point really is that making every piece of content available to every player doesn't in any way mean it has to be easy. Like above if I pull my party together and go in to Crystal Tower. Even if we only manage to get up one floor that night it's saved and next time we go in we can start on that floor. It may be difficult but it's also accessible.

I think thats the key. Having a piece of content that takes 5 or 6 hours of your day makes it inaccessible to most not in any part due to difficulty but simply due to time constraints. I'm all for hard content and long as the difficulty is in actually clearing it and not how many hours are in my day.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

i think thats the key. having a piece of content that takes 5 or 6 hours of your day makes it inaccessible to most not in any part due to difficulty but simply due to time constraints.

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What kind of Content requires 5-6 Hours in FFXIV a day? To make it even easier, which Content even requires 2 hours a day in FFXVI? No Content/Instance in FFXIV is forcing you to stay even 2 hours in the Game.

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Originally Posted by Nero

What kind of Content requires 5-6 Hours in FFXIV a day? To make it even easier, which Content even requires 2 hours a day in FFXVI? No Content/Instance in FFXIV is forcing you to stay even 2 hours in the Game.

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True enough, yet to make any form of progress in content you often have (technically "had" now) to spam it several times. Thus you do (did) infact end up spending several hours in one piece of content. Wasn't to often you'd see a shout for anything, be it primal hamlet or dungeon where a group was formed to only go once. Hamlet especially. I don't think anyone would take time to provision and only do one hamlet that day...

My point was regarding regarding difficulty more than time. It seems "hard core" players want content designed for them to be difficult. That's really cool. However that difficulty should be in clearing the content and not the amount of hours you have to play. If structured right that difficult content can be accessible to everyone not just the hard core. I'm not particulalry "hard core" but i love difficulty. Easy is dull and boring.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

You don't see a problem with I got this weapon it might of taken me 2 months to get and some work but now I am set for the rest of this MMOs lifespan?

To me in FFXI it was very boring how they never came out with better weapons to get after relics until abyssea.

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Ya, but in ffxi it took at least a good year to get if not more, not a month worth of grinding.

You were also looked up to. You saw a person with relic or anything rare of the sorts. You were like "Wow, this guy is sooo cool! My hero!" this game it's like, oh cool... I don't get the same reaction as I would seeing a normal relic in FFXI. Because very few people had em.

This game is soo casual, makes me puke. I want stuff in game that I will never get, just like relics in FFXI. I want stuff that only one or two people will have with a years worth of time.

That is lasting content. That's why FFXI today is still better than all these other failing mmos, FFXI is STILL holding a good subscription base even with abyssea.

Relics should always be the best weapon for their level range, and if the level cap is raised there should be quests to increase the power of the relics. Although with this, to prevent everyone from eventually having the same weapon, I think there should be graphical changes to them or even replacing the relic with stronger relics of a new name. Like Curtana going +1 and +2 and +3 and the at level 70 turning into Excalibur or something. Just an example.

Maybe add some particle effects to the relics after they are upgraded to 55 or 60 and weaponskills. I hated in FF11 seeing the same graphic for 7 years.

actually im not saying that I'm entitled to anything in particular. But if they haven't implemented anything to the level people are stating they want, there is a direct reason the company has chosen not to, and no I'm not gonna waste my time citing all the times SE has stated that the game is focused on casual play, because it has been stated repeatedly since before the 1st alpha had even been released over 2 1/2 years ago. whether Tanaka era or Yoshi-P, that's like having to cite examples of how the world isn't flat just because you haven't paid attention.

The point was, it's a game. And if you feel the dev's are completely ignoring a sector of the player base who want things even more 'challenging' by taking up severe amounts of time, you're probably right but doesn't mean they are going to stop ignoring it anytime soon as they still desire to build a strong casual base for ARR than to put in old-school oriented content that the casuals would never touch, and more resembles work than play.

TA as a leaderboard/achievement is irrelevant, just as the kill timers in FFXI were after an instance compared to the utility of TAs in the old format.

Your personal assumptions about myself are way misguided as well. I play the game consistently more than SE designed it for as well, but i don't complain about it. Instead i realize that people that over-play are an exception to the design concept (but maybe not an exception to the server community) and "just roll with it", still managing to enjoy the game by helping others instead of complaining, niche-forming, or needing something that makes me stand out that requires too much time from too many assets just to see any results for one person.

As long as content is updated consistently (as planned) and with relevance, the game can still offer plenty of material to keep players of any style occupied without putting in content that promotes Elitist egos by feeling superior to the have-nots. It's irrelevant to put in severe time-sinks if the delevopment team instead focuses on releasing relevant content. Severe time-sinks are put in to hope the players ignore the low pace at which new content is being put out.

And actually tying this in to the OP, alot of the reason why Relics stayed the top-tier weapon for 7 years in FFXI and other weapons were inferior for so long was BECAUSE of the fact that if someone DID obtain a Relic in FFXI it usually required around 2 years of a large number of assets to acquire at the time, so they didn't want to cheapen what took soo much 'time' but not necessarily challenging.

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Maybe add some particle effects to the relics after they are upgraded to 55 or 60 and weaponskills. I hated in FF11 seeing the same graphic for 7 years.

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Lol there is afterglow now in FFXI... fairly irrelevant in utility, but a major time-sink as some people are supposedly desiring out of FFXIV

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Originally Posted by Rokien

I want stuff in game that I will never get,

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I have no objection to items I'll never own from difficult contents, but in XI things I never had included a dalmatica now over time my shell had on occassion got lucky and found kings unclaimed and killed them. So it fair to say my shell had the skill t take down niddhig and aspidodah.

The reason we never really owned these items was simply time. 21-24 hour windows 2-3 days on kings often at times where people are working etc. Thus difficulty was not the obstacle time was. and imo thats wrong.

If I'd never owned a dalmatica cos I simply wasn't skilled enough to kill Nidhogg I'd be fine with that. Gives me a reason to better myself. But to not own something simply cos I have to be at work during pop times is kinda bs. so yeah no objection to stuff being out of reach in terms of difficulty. it gives me a reason to improve myself. but to be out of reach simply from time. NO

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Originally Posted by Yolteotl

actually im not saying that I'm entitled to anything in particular. But if they haven't implemented anything to the level people are stating they want, there is a direct reason the company has chosen not to, and no I'm not gonna waste my time citing all the times SE has stated that the game is focused on casual play, because it has been stated repeatedly since before the 1st alpha had even been released over 2 1/2 years ago. whether Tanaka era or Yoshi-P, that's like having to cite examples of how the world isn't flat just because you haven't paid attention.

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Excuse me, but FFXIV post Yoshi-P is not held accountable by anything before that said by Tanaka. They even made a public announcement that the game was going to go by different standards and not be so casual oriented - this took place around the time they started making changes such as removing surplus/fatigue, adding gear options that are significantly tougher to get than at the time, and announcing such changes as not being able to start the game or progress in the story as a DoH/L and requiring a battle class to play the game.

If you pay any attention to the patterns in the progress of the game, and Yoshi-Ps design choices, he isn't focused on casual play. That is by no means a selling point for A Realm Reborn either. The idea he has in mind is casual accessibility - which is quite different than focus on casual play.

So, your arguments failed before they started.

PS: Casual friendly/accessibility does not mean making it so everyone can get everything. It goes without saying a casual player should not expect to achieve everything in an MMO. Not in a good one anyway.

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Originally Posted by Yolteotl

I'm not gonna waste my time citing all the times SE has stated that the game is focused on casual play, because it has been stated repeatedly since before the 1st alpha had even been released over 2 1/2 years ago.

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Oh, you're talking about Tanaka, then. Well, you know, back then the game was also advertised as being designed around play casual enough that players could complete the entire storyline as a DoH/L. Obviously, things have changed, and there's a new producer in charge.

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Matching Casual and Heavy Players

Online games have a hierarchy to them, or at least that’s what I like to call it. It’s often described using a pyramid, the width of the pyramid being representative of the number of players. At the peak are the hard-cores—the minority of players who completely immerse themselves in the game, playing day and night and often forgetting their biological imperatives. As you work your way down the pyramid, players become increasingly casual. It bears mentioning that this model illustrates the quantity of players only, not quality.

In the first generation of MMORPGs, the pyramids were skinny and tall. In the current generation, while I think the peak should still stay way up there, the slopes projecting down from it should be less extreme. What I want to make is a theme park where both casuals and hard-cores can exist and play together. That’s the minimum requirement I think a modern MMORPG should fulfill.

I hope you heavy gamers out there will hurry to clear the game’s latest contents. I hope you beat Ifrit before anyone else and get those new weapons. I hope other players will see you and want to do the same. I hope you try and clear the beastman strongholds with less than the maximum number of players. And I hope you post on the forums about all your accomplishments.

I hope you more casual players will enjoy traveling around Eorzea by chocobo and airship with your in-game and real-life friends while working your way up to end-game content like the Ifrit fight. By then, the battle strats will be worked out, and you’ll be able to fight at your own pace. There’s no need to rush. Both play styles have their place. Should the need arise, we’ll look into adjusting the level of difficulty, or introducing a system that lets you set it yourself.

For any given content, the difference in the amount of time players need to figure it out and get the loot will unavoidably vary.

Hard-core gamers are hard-core gamers because they are always leading the charge. Following close behind their trailblazing are the “mid-cores.” And then there’s the casual gamers making progress at their own pace.

To realize the ideal we have in place, we need a powerful matching system capable of connecting all of these players, whatever their rates of progression might be. We plan to study what other MMORPGs have achieved here, and make it one of our main tasks as we move forward, together with add-ons and the UI.

Speaking of the UI, we are well aware that there are still difficulties with the mouse/keyboard interface. I’m a mouse/keyboard man myself, so believe me when I say I plan to continue making both little and big improvements with global standards in mind.

The ideal we’ve put in place may be a bit up there, but we have every intention of achieving it, and will do everything in our power to do so.

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Originally Posted by Yolteotl

The point was, it's a game. And if you feel the dev's are completely ignoring a sector of the player base who want things even more challenging, you're probably right but doesn't mean they are going to stop ignoring it anytime soon as they still desire to build a strong casual base for ARR than to put in old-school oriented content that the casuals would never touch.

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But they aren't ignoring the hardcore players. The slow, upward slope of difficulty from Ifrit (Hard) to Rivenroad (Hard) is evidence that they care and they're listening. As broken as 1.0's engine is, the battle designer still tried to challenge himself to release content that was ever harder (and even posted to his defeat when it was cleared sooner than he thought).

My point is, they have to cater to both sides. They can't just release content too hard for 80% of the playerbase to complete or there simply won't be enough subscriptions to stay afloat; yet they also can't just make the game faceroll easy, lest the game become devoid of any real sense of accomplishment.

I see people who consider themselves hardcore players posting on the forums asking for equal parts of difficulty; we ask for content that's really fucking hard, that forces us to pull longer nights, and tests our strategy-forming abilities, but we also acknowledge that the game needs to have low level dungeons/drops/nms for casual players, and that's fine. I only ever see casual players posting threads whining and begging for primal weapons/DL/relic/White Ravens/etc to be handed to them, and demanding that the game cater to their needs and only their needs, whilst they mock hardcore players as sadists with no lives who overestimate their accomplishments.

Relics in 14 are not the same as relics in 11. Just because they have the same name doesn't mean they are the same thing.

They are hardly as good as 11's, take substantially less investment, and in rotation shouldn't always be the best. Giving them a unique WS would make them beyond overpowered due to how the games combo system works.

I assume something like this will happen:

L50 Relics are best ->
Level Cap Raised ->
New endgame content has weapons better than relic ->
new relic quest add on -> Relics are best again ->
new content comes out with weapons stronger than relics ->
level cap ->
new weapons from content better than the previous strongest ->
-> new relic quest add on -> Relics are best again

etc etc etc etc unless Legend's are planned and are similar investment to XI Relics but preferably not a 100% gil investment.

theres nothing wrong with there being a top weapon that takes years to get. there is tons of other slots to gear up after you get that piece. hopefully they still find ways to make multiple pieces useful for every slot like in ffxi as well. the bad thing will be is if we get corny full sets that are gather-able in a few months and then your literally done with the game till new expansions come out like other cheesy piece of crap mmo's that keep coming out.

personally they should add gear like this for every slot, multiple pieces like this for every slot. make them for events that you don't have to do and are only good for those types of events so people don't feel like they have to do it. just like they seperate pvp and pve gear these days, add gear that is only good for say large scale events or crazy hardcore stuff.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

If you pay any attention to the patterns in the progress of the game, and Yoshi-Ps design choices, he isn't focused on casual play. That is by no means a selling point for A Realm Reborn either. The idea he has in mind is casual accessibility - which is quite different than focus on casual play.

So, your arguments failed before they started.

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Inorite? Like the removal of TA loot mandates, the implementation of quest based leveling, the fact that you all are still searching for something that will make u feel Elite, etc...

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Originally Posted by Yolteotl

Inorite? Like the removal of TA loot mandates, the implementation of quest based leveling, the fact that you all are still searching for something that will make u feel Elite, etc...

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/sigh... and this is where I conclude that you are not worth my time.

Yes. Feel free to take that as some elitist cliche response as I'm sure you will.