The problem with Tripling Down on Shadowbringers Job Design

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Originally Posted by HopeEstheim

I know this is a lot of questions, but I'm quite puzzled with the direction this game is going, combat-wise. I can't take another 2 years of this...

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I think I myself am going to give Dawntrail a shot and see just how “surprising” this new approach to encounter design actually is, but I’m also feeling like maybe beyond that I just skip the rest of DT. It would be nice if I didn’t have to wait 2.5 years to enjoy FFXIV (assuming this return to job identity actually turns out), but I’m just tired of wanting to play a game where the devs clearly don’t want me to play it.

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Originally Posted by Zadood

In Vtuber circles, we call these kind of players as "tourists".

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Yeah, and XIV has been a tourist attraction for people who play other Final Fantasy games.

You can see the references pretty well if you've played the different gaves, and XIV does love to give nods - some rather forced than others.

However, we must not forget that XIV is a live service compared to a single player game. As a live service, you want your net cast wide so you can profit while maintaining the game(which they've done particularly well with new players). One of the issues however is that they're focusing on new player addition than player retention - an issue that you can't ignore as a live service.

In the MMO Genre, you of course have your highs and lows in the development cycle due to patch lulls where you lose some of your playerbase, but a patch makes them come back for more because of the quality. That patch quality has been lackluster after 6.2 in regards to story and job design. One thing I've noticed among casuals is they are not always inclined to do new thing. More often than not, if new thing is too grindy to get? They won't do it unless they really want it. While it's a subsection of the playerbase, this spoonfed philosophy from ShB to EW is harming the game in the name of "accessibility", even if that was already achieved in Shadowbringers. They need to remind people what an MMO is in Dawntrail, or the game is going to slump into a state that will be hard to recover from due to all the issues it has. Because once that new coat of paint falls off? It's back to the drawing board.

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Originally Posted by Ayche

"Would you be 'happier' had I a 'good reason'? If my motives met with your approval, would you no longer resent the outcome?"

It is super fine to alieanate customers, video games are not hospitality service. We don't ask the performer to turn down the volume at the metal concert.
Overall this is how they see FFXIV at its best.

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The performer also doesn't ask for feedback about the volume for the concert.

I'm a customer, not a metal groupie.

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Originally Posted by Ayche

"Would you be 'happier' had I a 'good reason'? If my motives met with your approval, would you no longer resent the outcome?"

It is super fine to alieanate customers, video games are not hospitality service. We don't ask the performer to turn down the volume at the metal concert.
Overall this is how they see FFXIV at its best.

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I don't know in what universe alienating a portion of their customers to cater more towards another portion that's already satisfied is the best decision for a game, but ok.

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Originally Posted by Ayche

It is super fine to alieanate customers, video games are not hospitality service. We don't ask the performer to turn down the volume at the metal concert.
Overall this is how they see FFXIV at its best.

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This argument only hold true if FFXIV is a single player game, since single player games in general don't really "service" customer, so long the the said game is bug/glitch free on fundamental level.

Single player game make moneys by making players want to play to game, so they go and and buy the game.

However, whether the players continue play the games after bought the game, is only matter if they like the games enough to warrant a sequels of the said games.



Massive Multiplayer Online games a.k.a MMOs, however is different stories, as MMOs make moneys by making players playing MMOs as long as they can afford to. But, the revenue potential is significantly higher than a single players which is why there is a period of time where the "Single Player Games are dead" sentiment have been echo'ed by many AAA game studios, because they want that MMOs moneys.

But here's the thing, every players only have 24 hour per day, and every players can only play 2 MMOs at best due to MMOs time consiming game design. Now because of these, MMOs market in general is a zero-sums market, hence MMOs market get saturated quickly. Which is why MMOs game devs will try to design MMOs gameplay engaging enough to hook and retent players, therefore MMOs with best "service" or more accurately best "live service" will make the most moneys, especially look at Mihoyo games in general.

Alienating customer base is somewhat tolerated in single player game, but definitely not acceptable in MMOs unless the new customer base has wrought more revenue compared to old customer base.

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Originally Posted by fulminating

Are you talking about pre or post rework paladin?

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Post; there are more resources, buttons, and conditionals.

At this point it’s honestly debatable if post rework PLD is harder than WAR given PLD’s rotation has absolutely no nuance to it anymore. It neatly fits into a 60 second bow without you even trying and your 4 relevant oGCD’s all are designed to be double weaved together. I can’t even think of a point of optimisation for new PLD. Not that WAR is any better but neither have anything going for them in the optimisation department

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Originally Posted by Aravell

The problem with this statement is that who can definitively prove that HW and SB design were harmful to the casuals? They were still clearing content back then and as far as I remember, they weren't complaining about X or Y job being too hard.

Also, as for where the money is, sure, some casuals buy store stuff, but by nature of being a casual, they're very likely not logged in to the game very much. It's usually the hardcore players that make the game feel alive, the ones who sub for months on end to clear raids, the big fishers, the achievement hunters. They're the ones doing content and keeping the game alive, not the people who do the MSQ and then quit until next patch.

I don't think catering completely to casuals can keep your game healthy, a balance does need to be reached.

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I just think that is a very naive way of framing the issue. It is never about whether gaming or games are or were ever "harmful" to casuals.

It is just the reality that gaming expanded from a niche technical interest into mass consumption entertainment media. Yes, you could side with the casuals that they are somehow "harmed" by challenge, or even take the opposite approach and villify them for being lazy and unskilled.

But the relationship between accessibility/popularity and lack of challenge will always exist in all forms of media. Consumers (in this case gamers) don't like to admit it, but entertainment is still a leisure activity. What that ultimately means is that:

1. Most people in reality do not have the time or interest to spend their free time being mentally taxed. Life is taxing enough. So profitability of ANY media will always trend toward being unchallenging and placative. A game (or film, or music, or whatever) can either be deeply designed, or it can be massively commercially popular, but it really cannot aspire to be both. Exceptions occur (and usually in spite of complexity, not because of it), but they are extremely rare and FFXIV is not one of them.

2. This romanticized notion that "gaming" consumption-as-identity requires gaming to be "challenging" is a bit of a delusional sham. It is maintaining at best a compartmentalized notion that challenge and accessibility even can reasonably be co-prioritized. And at worst maintaining a nostalgic fantasy of gamers = niche nerds = hard games that simply doesn't describe the industry and communities anymore. "Gaming" is not the unique thing it used to be that I think people act like it still is; it is massively popular/populist and now caters to a lower common denominator.

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Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

I just think that is a very naive way of framing the issue. It is never about whether gaming or games are or were ever "harmful" to casuals.

It is just the reality that gaming expanded from a niche technical interest into mass consumption entertainment media. Yes, you could side with the casuals that they are somehow "harmed" by challenge, or even take the opposite approach and villify them for being lazy and unskilled.

But the relationship between accessibility/popularity and lack of challenge will always exist in all forms of media. Consumers (in this case gamers) don't like to admit it, but entertainment is still a leisure activity. What that ultimately means is that:

1. Most people in reality do not have the time or interest to spend their free time being mentally taxed. Life is taxing enough. So profitability of ANY media will always trend toward being unchallenging and placative. A game (or film, or music, or whatever) can either be deeply designed, or it can be massively commercially popular, but it really cannot aspire to be both. Exceptions occur (and usually in spite of complexity, not because of it), but they are extremely rare and FFXIV is not one of them.

2. This romanticized notion that "gaming" consumption-as-identity requires gaming to be "challenging" is a bit of a delusional sham. It is maintaining at best a compartmentalized notion that challenge and accessibility even can reasonably be co-prioritized. And at worst maintaining a nostalgic fantasy of gamers = niche nerds = hard games that simply doesn't describe the industry and communities anymore. "Gaming" is not the unique thing it used to be that I think people act like it still is; it is massively popular/populist and now caters to a lower common denominator.

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In another words, beating or complete a video game back in the "old days" is something players can brag for in front of their friend, and if players failed to go do, they will rage and rant about game being hard for them, but there were very few of them genuinely question the fairness as well as accessibilty of game design in general.

Nowadays? If players can't beat a game, they would just assume game developers hate players by making game hard for players, some of the player go as far as sending death threat to game developers as well.

Nowadays video game become so much accessible which make beating or complete a video game became something expected from any "functional" players, therefore the joy of finish a game kind of diminishes over time.

"Back in the old days" players are just simply being nostalgic about the halcyon days of completing a video game is something they can brag about.

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Originally Posted by Zadood

Back in the old days" players are just simply being nostalgic about the halcyon days of completing a video game is something they can brag about.

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Claiming that the only reason someone would want to beat a video game would be to shove it in their friends’ faces sounds like a really cynical—almost misanthropic way to look people.

There’s more to undertaking challenges than doing it for the purpose of being better than others. I would argue that most people like winning games because they like challenging themselves and finding satisfaction in the journey that got you there.

Rebooting this for a hot minute since we're essentially 26 days from Early Access, and a Month from Full Release.

Since we have the site up now, I'm more hyped for the story along with just The Arcadion. Given that we don't have a huge world threat to deal with in the Arcadion, I'm more curious than ever how they're going to spice up the raiding formula, especially since they had ran into the WAR problem since the beginning of time(2:30 or 3:00 on Holmgang). So, here's hoping they shake it up to where we're not all doing jump ropes because BOY HOWDY we did a lot of that this set of raids in Endwalker.

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

Rebooting this for a hot minute since we're essentially 26 days from Early Access, and a Month from Full Release.

Since we have the site up now, I'm more hyped for the story along with just The Arcadion. Given that we don't have a huge world threat to deal with in the Arcadion, I'm more curious than ever how they're going to spice up the raiding formula, especially since they had ran into the WAR problem since the beginning of time(2:30 or 3:00 on Holmgang). So, here's hoping they shake it up to where we're not all doing jump ropes because BOY HOWDY we did a lot of that this set of raids in Endwalker.

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Nerfing WAR would be a start

Given it’s broken in nearly every facet of its gameplay to a hilarious degree

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Nerfing WAR would be a start

Given it’s broken in nearly every facet of its gameplay to a hilarious degree

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Pretty sure I went into detail about that and sparked a big discussion with WAR Here for a good minute before that train stopped.

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

Pretty sure I went into detail about that and sparked a big discussion with WAR Here for a good minute before that train stopped.

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Oh I know, just pledging my continued support of nerfing the blight on balance design that is WAR

It’s so funny to me how when Heavensward or Stormblood are brought up by someone missing how jobs felt more fun to play back then, that someone inevitably starts complaining about the job balance back then (which is, you know not the point) because Endwalker balance is so perfect and flawless of course, with WAR being the perfect trifecta of most brain dead, strongest damage, and strongest sustain for some reason. Not to mention RDM’s damage is painfully low, DNC was very undertuned in tier 1, MCH was very undertuned for tier 1 and 2, PLD’s emergency warriorification was so important, it couldn’t wait for 7.0 apparently… Jobs are as homogenized, simplified, and neutered as ever and yet balance is still a problem.

So what’s the point of job lobotomization if it still fails to achieve perfect balance?

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

It’s so funny to me how when Heavensward or Stormblood are brought up by someone missing how jobs felt more fun to play back then, that someone inevitably starts complaining about the job balance back then (which is, you know not the point) because Endwalker balance is so perfect and flawless of course, with WAR being the perfect trifecta of most brain dead, strongest damage, and strongest sustain for some reason. Not to mention RDM’s damage is painfully low, DNC was very undertuned in tier 1, MCH was very undertuned for tier 1 and 2, PLD’s emergency warriorification was so important, it couldn’t wait for 7.0 apparently… Jobs are as homogenized, simplified, and neutered as ever and yet balance is still a problem.

So what’s the point of job lobotomization if it still fails to achieve perfect balance?

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How many buffs did SGE get to compete with SCH who got nerfed despite the fact that even now in a raid setting SCH’s kit is still so infinitely better it’s almost hilarious

Who allowed a universally useful utility, the most mitigation of any one class and shields big enough to delete mechanics the class can generate entirely off its own toolkit to all exist on a single class

SE's insistence on WAR supremacy just means that sacrificing so many gameplay elements for the sake of balance is a foolish endeavour. if there's gonna be stupid wackiness like WAR solo-ing anything under Extreme/Savage anyway, then why are we bothering with such uptight balance?

I better see Bloodwhetting omega nerfed by the time media tour tooltips get released.

Not gonna happen. Some youtuber will make an uproar

Bloodwhetting is removed, but becomes a trait that’s always active.

Enhanced Tomahawk :
Gets a free Bloodwhetting per use
(Not a reducted cooldown, this way there is less homogenization among classes, you players are going to be really happy with this right?.....)

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

So what’s the point of job lobotomization if it still fails to achieve perfect balance?

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If I took a test and failed with a score of 20%, then studied for my next one and scored 80%, should I conclude that there was no point to studying because it didn't get me a perfect 100%? Of course not. A change doesn't have to make something "perfect" to be worthwhile - simply being "immensely better" can fit the bill.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

It’s so funny to me how when Heavensward or Stormblood are brought up by someone missing how jobs felt more fun to play back then, that someone inevitably starts complaining about the job balance back then (which is, you know not the point) because Endwalker balance is so perfect and flawless of course, with WAR being the perfect trifecta of most brain dead, strongest damage, and strongest sustain for some reason. Not to mention RDM’s damage is painfully low, DNC was very undertuned in tier 1, MCH was very undertuned for tier 1 and 2, PLD’s emergency warriorification was so important, it couldn’t wait for 7.0 apparently… Jobs are as homogenized, simplified, and neutered as ever and yet balance is still a problem.

So what’s the point of job lobotomization if it still fails to achieve perfect balance?

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MCH is still a third class of its own, below the second dps group (ranged jobs), if you go about cDPS metrics. It's way behind everything else, it's just sad. That's the whole MCH's story since its rework in ShB, always bottom DPS job.

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Originally Posted by Striker44

If I took a test and failed with a score of 20%, then studied for my next one and scored 80%, should I conclude that there was no point to studying because it didn't get me a perfect 100%? Of course not. A change doesn't have to make something "perfect" to be worthwhile - simply being "immensely better" can fit the bill.

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I think “immensely better” is highly questionable. The current balance is in some ways more jank than it used to be.

Both now and in the past, all jobs are viable. But because of how homogenized the jobs are, the jobs that are worse are hard to justify because there’s virtually nothing else they bring to the table that other jobs can’t do. You can still bring them because again, everything is viable like it was in the past as well, but RDM for example has almost no merit compared to SMN who also has a raise, deals more damage, has more mobility, and has been reduced to almost healer level gameplay but without the healing.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

I think “immensely better” is highly questionable. The current balance is in some ways more jank than it used to be.

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For the record, I wasn't commenting on whether this particular situation is immensely better, just pointing out what I saw as a significant flaw in the logic being used.

Also for the record, all jobs were not viable in the past the way they are now. This thread itself is filled with examples of jobs at various points in the earlier years (ARR/HW/SB) that were "must-have" and others that were effectively blacklisted. Even if all jobs aren't perfectly balanced now, they are all viable in a way that wasn't the case in earlier iterations of job design.

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Originally Posted by Striker44

For the record, I wasn't commenting on whether this particular situation is immensely better, just pointing out what I saw as a significant flaw in the logic being used.

Also for the record, all jobs were not viable in the past the way they are now. This thread itself is filled with examples of jobs at various points in the earlier years (ARR/HW/SB) that were "must-have" and others that were effectively blacklisted. Even if all jobs aren't perfectly balanced now, they are all viable in a way that wasn't the case in earlier iterations of job design.

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I get what you mean, and that is definitely true of the language I used. I did mean it more with the specific state of FFXIV balance in mind where Endwalker's balance is specifically not particularly better than the balance of Heavensward or Stormblood. It's more balanced in some spots, but less in others, so in using your example, it's less like getting a score of 20% vs getting a score of 80%, and more like you swapped which questions on the test you got correct from one set of 20 questions to a different set of 20 questions, but you still only got a 20%.

But your example also brings up an important question: What is greater balance worth? Is it worth massively homogenizing all jobs to ensure they are as close to perfectly balanced as possible? Because I don't think so. Balance is important, but fun is more important than balance. I have no interest in playing a game that is dull and lifeless regardless of how balanced its classes are, but I will gladly play a fun, yet unbalanced game where not all classes are treated equal, but all of them are at least viable and offer some unique advantage that only they can provide in their given role. And that has almost exclusively been true of both Heavensward and Stormblood. We have a few exceptions like Scholar at the launch of 4.0, but that was corrected almost immediately. And that's okay in my book.

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Originally Posted by Striker44

Also for the record, all jobs were not viable in the past the way they are now. This thread itself is filled with examples of jobs at various points in the earlier years (ARR/HW/SB) that were "must-have" and others that were effectively blacklisted. Even if all jobs aren't perfectly balanced now, they are all viable in a way that wasn't the case in earlier iterations of job design.

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I think you and a lot of other people are conflating "effectively blacklisted" with "unviable". Every job was viable in HW/SB, just because people chose to lock certain jobs out of PF does not diminish the viability of that job.

The balance back then may not have been perfect (neither is it perfect as it is now), but it was fine because every job could clear content. If players choose to lock out a job, that's not the problem of the developer, that's the problem of the playerbase.

To be honest every job outside of summoner was at its peak in stormblood, every change after as been worse and worse to all the older jobs. Summoner in EW FINALLY became what it should have been in 2.0 a real summoner not a wow afflication warlock like it was.

I'm sorry but original ast in stormblood was about the coolest and funnest job to play, and if you were smart and knew when and how to use your cards you could basicly turn your team to gods. For example when arrow gave haste it was amazing on blms

Why was HW design bad because PLD got locked out but EW design is somehow good despite there being periods when WHM/MCH/SGE all got locked out for various reasons

People seem to have totally blocked out the fact that WHM was an absolute trash fire on 6.0 launch and that it was hard to get a savage spot for it and good luck even trying to use the two selfish healers in DSR

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Why was HW design bad because PLD got locked out but EW design is somehow good despite there being periods when WHM/MCH/SGE all got locked out for various reasons

People seem to have totally blocked out the fact that WHM was an absolute trash fire on 6.0 launch and that it was hard to get a savage spot for it and good luck even trying to use the two selfish healers in DSR

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The funny part is that "HW bad because PLD got locked out of 2 tiers because of heavy magic damage that they can't blocked" but "EW good even though PLD got locked out for 2 tiers because their damage sucked".

End result is the same, but EW is better for some reason. :)

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Originally Posted by Aravell

The funny part is that "HW bad because PLD got locked out of 2 tiers because of heavy magic damage that they can't blocked" but "EW good even though PLD got locked out for 2 tiers because their damage sucked".

End result is the same, but EW is better for some reason. :)

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PLD locked out of HW because magic couldn't be blocked. Thank god they fixed that. There definitely wasn't a four month period this expansion where PLD was not wanted because it could not block incoming damage.

Yeah it was just unwanted because it couldn't deal enough damage, which in a way, is even more sloppy and less complicated to address..

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Originally Posted by Emitans

PLD locked out of HW because magic couldn't be blocked. Thank god they fixed that. There definitely wasn't a four month period this expansion where PLD was not wanted because it could not block incoming damage.

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The issue at hand was damage and raid design being designed around Warrior’s Holmgang(Bleeds in Abyssos every raidwide + TB) which is dominant in cheesing mechanics and Tankbusters especially when paired with Bloodwhetting.

Also, the reason people didn’t pick PLD for P4S/P8S revolves around its damage, I believe - trying to fit everything in 2m windows and during on/off phases where melee are forced to disengage for mechanics.

I’ll say it again, Abyssos broke the camel’s back due to the design of P8S in general since before rework it was considered really bad because it couldn’t do what all 3 other tanks did: Huge big d*ck burst damage on demand. PLD had sustained damage for that tier via DoTs and their general rotation between Goring/RA back then. Now? It’s bastardized Holy Warrior with a side of GNB Blasting Zone on top.

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Originally Posted by Graveyardprincess

To be honest every job outside of summoner was at its peak in stormblood, every change after as been worse and worse to all the older jobs. Summoner in EW FINALLY became what it should have been in 2.0 a real summoner not a wow afflication warlock like it was.

I'm sorry but original ast in stormblood was about the coolest and funnest job to play, and if you were smart and knew when and how to use your cards you could basicly turn your team to gods. For example when arrow gave haste it was amazing on blms

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Scholar peaked in heavensward and summoner they were getting really close to nailing between sb and shb. Smn is significantly less fun in ew and presumably dawntrail than it was prior to being remade in black mage’s image.

Blue mage still captures the traditional summoner fantasy more fully than (n)ewsmn as it has a flexible and broad suite of spells with varying impact and effects while not being built on the skeleton of a pet job. Prior to endwalker I did not know there was this unhappy union of pet job and black mage, and yet here we are.

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

The issue at hand was damage and raid design being designed around Warrior’s Holmgang(Bleeds in Abyssos every raidwide + TB) which is dominant in cheesing mechanics and Tankbusters especially when paired with Bloodwhetting.

Also, the reason people didn’t pick PLD for P4S/P8S revolves around its damage, I believe - trying to fit everything in 2m windows and during on/off phases where melee are forced to disengage for mechanics.

I’ll say it again, Abyssos broke the camel’s back due to the design of P8S in general since before rework it was considered really bad because it couldn’t do what all 3 other tanks did: Huge big d*ck burst damage on demand. PLD had sustained damage for that tier via DoTs and their general rotation between Goring/RA back then. Now? It’s bastardized Holy Warrior with a side of GNB Blasting Zone on top.

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Sad to think that old PLD died because the devs mistuned a single fight. The one that they later nerfed and was completely fine for PLD on the later weeks. I really would rather have PLD unviable for week 1 than whatever we have right now.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

The funny part is that "HW bad because PLD got locked out of 2 tiers because of heavy magic damage that they can't blocked" but "EW good even though PLD got locked out for 2 tiers because their damage sucked".

End result is the same, but EW is better for some reason. :)

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It's doubly entertaining knowing it will definitely happen again next expansion, especially as jobs continue to have their gameplay simplified. Since everyone can now (and will be expected to) play their job at 100% potential, DPS checks will likely need to be tightened further to account for this, and even the slightest imbalance will become glaringly noticeable under these conditions. At the beginning of Asphodelos I knew of some statics asking their Ranged DPS to switch to BRD to help with their P3S clear, which brought forth the classic never-ending argument of "but I don't need to; we already have the DPS" vs, "but it would make our lives so much easier". Can't wait to see this happen again next tier. Essentially we lost a large chunk of job identity and gameplay to stop jobs from getting locked out, and that was successful... in making the jobs feel like ass to play. Oh, and people still got locked out. Awesome.

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Even if CBU3 managed to achieve a world where everything is perfectly balanced and no one is excluded from content, it's not worth it if the jobs are boring and soulless to play. I'd prefer fun jobs any day, even with all the imbalances and negative experiences with PF that might bring. I've lived through some awful MMORPGs where I had the misfortune of choosing the worst class in the game, and at this point I'm considering going back to those games instead of playing Dawntrail just so I can feel something.

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Originally Posted by fulminating

Scholar peaked in heavensward and summoner they were getting really close to nailing between sb and shb. Smn is significantly less fun in ew and presumably dawntrail than it was prior to being remade in black mage’s image.

Blue mage still captures the traditional summoner fantasy more fully than (n)ewsmn as it has a flexible and broad suite of spells with varying impact and effects while not being built on the skeleton of a pet job. Prior to endwalker I did not know there was this unhappy union of pet job and black mage, and yet here we are.

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Ew is horrible in alot of ways but honestly it did Summoner a great service into turning it what it should have been all along, SUMMONER IN FF as always been a prime pet user not a wow fanboys warlock lol and honestly the summoner abilitys should be removed from blue mages and given to summoner. Summoner shouldn't even have ruin it should only have things related to summoning period

and the only reason im not playing it in dt, is the stupid devs just gave it another stupid bahamut and not levi,shiva,ramuh etc and if they wanted a 3rd set for them there was always alexander,anima,ark etc


and if im being honest the only reason we arent getting more pet reletaed stuff is yoshi p probely got owned in wow pvp by hunters and unholy dks, ice mages, demo warlocks and cried alot over it lol

in fact in 2.0 smn should have never been a part of acn job, it should have been a part of black mage/thaum if anything