Stop the Grind-to-the-Endgame madness!

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Originally Posted by Jynx

I really doubt anyone pulling from their experience from XI want this game to be XI-2. Then again if we don't quote something with WoW level subscribers it seems we are going to get pointed in another direction becasue what we thought was fun obviously didn't sell well enough.

Man CoD must be the best game evar.

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*laugh* It certainly is popular, not that I like it.

Anyways, no. There are a lot of good ideas from FFXI. But many people have very contrasting views about what was good from XI.

What about the mentions of Campaign, Beseiged, Conquest? Hamlet defense falls short of this so far.

We've got Arena PVP coming, but what about Balista? I know that had a cult following, and if it had rewards relevant to PvP I bet more people would jump on that.

We've already gone over HNMs on another thread and I reminisced on how Sandworm and Dark Ixion both had a special place with me.


What's getting opposed is broad spectrum ideas, things that seem to want to be transplanted without adjustment or acknowledgement of the things that cause it to snag in FFXI. When you talk huge concepts like the level progression, or necessity to party to do anything in FFXI, then you're starting to tread upon areas that caused many people to defect away from XI to begin with, and often at the cost of mechanics many players like here.

If I absolutely had to party to level at a decent rate in this game, I'd drop subscription. I like the thought of being able to train in private as well as with a group.

But there are a vast amount of concepts in FFXI that are interesting, that really aren't being touched on. It seems that the few people who are champion XI are championing the same small scope of mechanics over and over again.

Maybe it's because some of those mechanics no longer exist in XI and you're looking for an alternative vent, but it is defended so staunchly that there does not seem to be any room for negotiation for it to work with a broader audience.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

If I absolutely had to party to level at a decent rate in this game, I'd drop subscription. I like the thought of being able to train in private as well as with a group.

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For the most part even in XI you could solo for pretty decent exp, of course party play was "The best" because it had to be rewarding for people to gather together otherwise everyone would just solo.

Hell it's mostly why Black-mages ended up becoming ostracized by party players it wasn't the meele burns that did them in, for years before that Black-Mages were off soloing for better exp they could ever get in parties. Many parties would kill for a Black-Mage for Magic burst damage.

They even had entire jobs based around being able to solo (Beastmaster and *kind of* Puppetmaster) FFXI had a MASSIVE spectrum of support for a bunch of types of players. I think people forget how broad the leveling process could be outside of just grind parties.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

For the most part even in XI you could solo for pretty decent exp, of course party play was "The best" because it had to be rewarding for people to gather together otherwise everyone would just solo.

Hell it's mostly why Black-mages ended up becoming ostracized by party players it wasn't the meele burns that did them in, for years before that Black-Mages were off soloing for better exp they could ever get in parties. Many parties would kill for a Black-Mage for Magic burst damage.

They even had entire jobs based around being able to solo (Beastmaster and *kind of* Puppetmaster) FFXI had a MASSIVE spectrum of support for a bunch of types of players. I think people forget how broad the leveling process could be outside of just grind parties.

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On paper it might have seemed that way to you, but I was a soloist. Your 'decent' rate of solo was a bout a tenth of the rate of a party unless you were a BST or were camping BST pets. And that was only to level, virtually everything else required a party.

That eased, gradually, as time went by in FFXI, but if you were there soloing in the first few years of the game, you had a very rough time of it, and were generally looked down upon. Garliage Citadel bats on the basement floor is a perfect example of that conflict.

The solo support here vs the solo support there are years apart both figuratively and literally. To the point where I want to say the Party Support in this game could use a little boost, content wise. But I am glad they made sure that smaller groups and soloists were covered first, cause that will defiantly keep players occupied on their downtime between events and group quests. Nothing was worse than sitting idle with your flag up because solo content was limited to the point of exasperation or progress solo was just too slow to not be sitting there trying to get a party together.

That changed in FFXI, mind you, but those were not pleasant memories.

There was a massive incentive to solo even in the early stages of the game. Just because the exp wasn't the best it was one of the best ways to make cash while leveling a job.

Yes most jobs outside of Beastmaster or Blackmage were terrible for solo but it was part of making each class unique that some were better at some tasks than others, not this white-wash everyone can do everything we had in the beginings of XIV. Soloing was included in one of those tasks you could be awesome at or not.

You had choices for Solo exp and because you thought Party exp was better you chose to not do them, especially in the mid-years of the game it was foolish to sit around town with your flag up. You either made your own party of seeked while completing other tasks such as crafting, gathering, gardening, NM hunting, Farming, you had a near limitless supply of things you could do while waiting for a party if you didn't want to make one yourself.

Again the rewards for being in a party had to far outweigh solo exploits otherwise people would just solo because they could. Look at XIV people avoid others like a plague unless they need to because they don't need to interact with others outside of instances.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

But we are talking about the field of recreation, a subjective art, at best. And the only true measurement of success really is the number of people who enjoy it. In which case this is a matter of 'majority rules' in spite of other examples you would compare with other factors to consider.

To draw an example parallel, this would be like comparing Coke to say Pepsi or some other off-brand rather than trying to compare it to water.

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I fundamentally and absolutely don't agree with any of the above. I firmly believe, with many philosophers and thinkers within the fields of psychology of pleasure, and aesthetics, that taste is part of the language of gratification which is essential to art, but it's not its subject. I believe emphasis in subjectivity is both just a market ploy, and a very popular political platform. Again, the full-fledged reasoning behind this, alas, is way too far outside the nature and tone of these forums. Just let it be enough to state that there is at least one person here that does not think that artistic quality is solely determined by subjective standards. That would render all art theory, and the efforts of anthological history of the arts, bogus. Which would make our discussion and these forums irrelevant. They might happen to be that, for reasons more related to the quality of our reasoning than to the subjectivity of our positions.

Subjectivity sways perception of the arts, and our opinion of them, but does not define them solely. There's plenty of objective territory, and room for argument.

BTW, I didn't intend to make Wow the Coke to FFXI's Pepsi. I didn't mean for the parallel to work that way. But you are correct in your criticism. Coke vs. water does not cut it. May I suggest then sugared soda drinks vs. bottled mineral carbonated water? Not as zippy, but perhaps more valid.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

The second major point that must be addressed immediately here is that your statement implies that the because the minority and the majority opinions conflict, that the solution must be exclusive to one or the other, as if neither camp could be satisfied while any amount of the other is.

This is simply not true.

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You do wrong to your own carefully expressed reasoning, Hyrst, when you state that implication is obvious in my statement. I never implied it, nor does my text express that idea. As a matter of fact, the whole point is that there's a majority, and then there must be an opposition to balance it. To state that the unfettered opposition should rule is, beyond ludicrous, a fallacious corollary, if ever there was one. The obvious corollary is one much closer to your own conclusion of compromise, which is what is exemplified in a correctly-functioning democratic government. To assert that I implied the contrary to the logical conclusion of my own argument is absurd.

I just wanted to dispel the notion that it is an absolute notion that FFXI and its qualities are completely excluded from all possible consideration in our argument because it was way outsold by WoW. Which is something you did seem to imply.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

While there is a fringe of players who enjoy a specific type of content and will be inflexible to the point of quitting over it, the ideal solution is to appeal to as broad as an audiance as possible - this includes more hardcore perspectives such as enjoying a longer grind.

But as a minority, it must be stated that the concept of compromise may come greater on that part than on the part of the majority, because the end goal is commercial success. It really is the only way you can truly measure this kind of success objectively.

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The implication I refer to above, however, does seem to dissipate when you speak of compromise. This I do agree with. What I don't agree with is the concept that commercial success is tantamount to beating WoW numbers, or even reaching them. That simplifies the situation far too much, and puts it in an unrealistically binary plane. I want a game that by definition will be more rarified, and therefore less populated than WoW was. Viable, and profitable, yes... self-sustainable, absolutely! But in my compromise I wouldn't sacrifice concepts that I consider important just to ensure the numbers match or exceed WoW's. It's obvious, however, that this point won't be subject to my call, since this is a private commercial venture, and I'm not a part of decision-making team. What I can do, however, is honestly and clearly try to express my position to see if it gains traction within the community; because as a collective within the player-base, we can make a difference in the outcome.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

There was a massive incentive to solo even in the early stages of the game. Just because the exp wasn't the best it was one of the best ways to make cash while leveling a job.

Yes most jobs outside of Beastmaster or Blackmage were terrible for solo but it was part of making each class unique that some were better at some tasks than others, not this white-wash everyone can do everything we had in the beginings of XIV. Soloing was included in one of those tasks you could be awesome at or not.

You had choices for Solo exp and because you thought Party exp was better you chose to not do them, especially in the mid-years of the game it was foolish to sit around town with your flag up. You either made your own party of seeked while completing other tasks such as crafting, gathering, gardening, NM hunting, Farming, you had a near limitless supply of things you could do while waiting for a party if you didn't want to make one yourself.

Again the rewards for being in a party had to far outweigh solo exploits otherwise people would just solo because they could. Look at XIV people avoid others like a plague unless they need to because they don't need to interact with others outside of instances.

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I agree with this. there should be a massive incentive to party. I have a group of friends I play with. and that is nice. but really we need more small-group content and i would not object into being forced to party after 15 or 20. the first 10s of levels should be sufficient to get someone comfortable with the interface and commands.

after that we should be looking at party play. fighting should be balanced at 4 people, so small groups can still XP and get things done effectively. larger groups should also receive incentive.

as long as there are levels there will always be a grid to end game. if you get rid of levels there will always be the grind to be the first or the best to do something. there's many people that play mmo's for the competition. that's why you have people asking for open world because they like the claiming wars. i'm one of them.

no matter what you do you will always have people that strive to be the first or best regardless of what it is.

[QUOTE=Rutelor;759853]

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Subjectivity sways perception of the arts, and our opinion of them, but does not define them solely. There's plenty of objective territory, and room for argument.

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Alas, now you push into the territory where the artist in me disagrees with the businessman in me.

Subjectivity is the essential aspect of art. It is how we subjectively view the world around us that becomes interpreted into form that makes art. In this case, the aesthetics as pertaining to the creator is most important, and the debate over it is part of what makes the art worthwile.

But the businessman reminds me that this isn't just art for arts sake, but rather a commercial art, in which case the goal is to sell the product. At that point there is a certain quantifiable set of variables to debate over, which we are now. It is subjective, but the subjective is focused to a target audience. The real question therin lies to Square Enix and Yoshida's crew - what is your target audiance, and how much of it can you capture and maintain? That is the ultimate goal here.

To the artists working under that goal, there is always the internal debate between your instincts of creating art for arts sake, and making the bottom line bigger. Where that line is drawn, as you said, is out of our hands, and I do not envy their position.

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BTW, I didn't intend to make Wow the Coke to FFXI's Pepsi. I didn't mean for the parallel to work that way. But you are correct in your criticism. Coke vs. water does not cut it. May I suggest then sugared soda drinks vs. bottled mineral carbonated water? Not as zippy, but perhaps more valid.

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You're talking quality of experience.

Speaking purely as a player, I understand what you mean, but again my personality comes into conflict with itself. If left with a choice between a healthy game and all the mechanics I wanted in it, I would sacrifice the mechanics.

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The obvious corollary is one much closer to your own conclusion of compromise, which is what is exemplified in a correctly-functioning democratic government. To assert that I implied the contrary to the logical conclusion of my own argument is absurd.

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Regardless, without clarification of such a term, others may have taken your words as such an absurd assumption, and I was moved as such to clarify to prevent such a reconstruction of you words. To be clear, we both agree that the answer is compromise.

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I just wanted to dispel the notion that it is an absolute notion that FFXI and its qualities are completely excluded from all possible consideration in our argument because it was way outsold by WoW. Which is something you did seem to imply.

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mm. Thats a good correction of my words. To be more clear, I believe that the leanings of compromise need to error leaning away from flaws of FFXI rather than towards its assets. This is because the track record of failed "WoW Clones." still net a higher subscription rate than FFXI at its peak. If we adapt FFXI concepts in there, it should be done with that fact in mind. We want to attract customers with Final Fantasy tropes, not push them away.

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The implication I refer to above, however, does seem to dissipate when you speak of compromise. This I do agree with. What I don't agree with is the concept that commercial success is tantamount to beating WoW numbers, or even reaching them. That simplifies the situation far too much, and puts it in an unrealistically binary plane. I want a game that by definition will be more rarified, and therefore less populated than WoW was. Viable, and profitable, yes... self-sustainable, absolutely! But in my compromise I wouldn't sacrifice concepts that I consider important just to ensure the numbers match or exceed WoW's. It's obvious, however, that this point won't be subject to my call, since this is a private commercial venture, and I'm not a part of decision-making team. What I can do, however, is honestly and clearly try to express my position to see if it gains traction within the community; because as a collective within the player-base, we can make a difference in the outcome.

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My standard is this: So long as the creators can capture the essence of what it means to be Final Fantasy within a game that keeps itself entertaining, and successful all else is open. But to do this with FFXI still in existence, FFXIV needs to seek it's own target audience. It can overlap, but it also has to appeal outside of FFXI's own scope to be successful.

I don't beleive FFXIV has the capasity to match WoW's audiance, nor do I beleive that should be the goal. Like you I beleive the audiance should be somewhat defined. But the definition for me is as simple as "Final Fantasy fans will enjoy this." Personally, if that is accomplished this game will be a success. However, given the diversity of those fans, that is still a tall order to fill.

That means various styles of gameplay, multiple references, a gripping story-line and a fun combat and progression system.

But beyond that, it also needs to be extensively replayable, as per the MMO mantra. That is a quality not really Final fantasy per se. The stories might get you to play again, but there have been no real mechanics that encourage replaying, like Chrono Trigger's Newgame+ (Ok, FFX-2 had it, and that was cool.)

Now there will always be differences in opinion, but I do beleive we still maintain the same goal. I ultimately agree with the general theme that Endgame should be reached as a natural conclusion, not as the goal you have at the start of the game. But to achieve that there needs to be a manner for endgame to reach down to the leveling base and vice versa. That latter part needs some work as far as lower levels reaching impact to help higher levels. I'm still thinking on how we can achieve that.


As far as leveling itself. Many of the Final Fantasy games were expertly paced based on their story, especially in some of the later games (Excluding 13). I think this is where they can tie in a proper leveling pacing. They've got good experience in this field and if they create an ever expanding story to fit with the level caps, we'll do fine.

I would like them to make this pacing better than it was in FFXI, however, which means faster than the old FFXI's pacing. Because, to be honest, you ran out of content before you ran into the next good series of quests, level wise in XI. If they can better fill that in, then the leveling pace is still going to seem fast, because you're drinking up rich story content.

Anyways, I'm out of time. I would like to talk more along the lines of what you and I would do as specifics for the compromises then. A way to keep leveling paces good for those who both want to get to endgame swiftly, and those who prefer to move casually along. I don't believe pacing should be enforced upon the player who wishes to progress quickly, but I do believe the slower one should be rewarded somehow for their patience. Is there some way we can achieve that? That would probably be a great framework to start from.

Ho dare ppl get to lvl cap so they can enjoy what they think the best part of mmorpg's are!!!

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Originally Posted by Firon

Ho dare ppl get to lvl cap so they can enjoy what they think the best part of mmorpg's are!!!

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I don't think you should generalize. Even though I understand it, because of the market trend.

However, the only good part, and the only fully enjoyable one, of an MMO does not have or need to be the endgame. That's the whole point of all this writing.

As things stand right now, with this trend, your statement, removing the sarcasm, does make perfect sense. Oh, ok... leave the sarcasm in, if you want. :-)

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Originally Posted by Rutelor

I don't think you should generalize. Even though I understand it, because of the market trend.

However, the only good part, and the only fully enjoyable one, of an MMO does not have or need to be the endgame. That's the whole point of all this writing.

As things stand right now, with this trend, your statement, removing the sarcasm, does make perfect sense. Oh, ok... leave the sarcasm in, if you want. :-)

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So ppl are not allowed to go what they think is the best part of the game? If you wanna take your time and lvl slow do so. If other ppl wanna rush to the cap let them do so. All i see is here ppl that wants everyone to lvl slow with them.

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Originally Posted by Firon

So ppl are not allowed to go what they think is the best part of the game. If you wanna take your time and lvl slow do so. If other ppl wanna rush to the cap let them do so. All i see is here ppl that wants everyone to lvl slow with them.

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even if it's not what they consider the best part of the game there will always be people who rush to cap. some people love to compete so they are going to be either the first person to do it or will strive to be the one that done something the best. i love to compete and want to put my very best up against someone else at their very best and see how we compare. in a mmo you at your best and me at my best are when we are capped.

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Originally Posted by Firon

So ppl are not allowed to go what they think is the best part of the game? If you wanna take your time and lvl slow do so. If other ppl wanna rush to the cap let them do so. All i see is here ppl that wants everyone to lvl slow with them.

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Then we really write very poorly, or you grossly misunderstood us, Firon. Pity!

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Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

even if it's not what they consider the best part of the game there will always be people who rush to cap. some people love to compete so they are going to be either the first person to do it or will strive to be the one that done something the best. i love to compete and want to put my very best up against someone else at their very best and see how we compare. in a mmo you at your best and me at my best are when we are capped.

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Of course, Darkstar, nobody is about to take the competitiveness out of the game. Neither is anybody saying you should not, as an individual, beat us all to the endgame, if you so please. Those of us who agree in this thread are against the design trend that wants to make the path from beginning to endgame, short, quick, and perfunctory. That's a different thing.

I'd like to bring up something i find interesting. If we look at the last players poll, a large amount of respondants replied that they we're atleast pleased with the current leveling speed which is slightly boosted.

Yoshi-P's comments on that we're quite interesting to me:

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50% of you thought the pace of leveling was just about right, while 20% felt it was too fast. And then there was the 10% who had more to say on the matter.
For most MMOs, you might expect around 60-70% of players to respond with “too slow”, but as the current leveling speed for FFXIV is intentionally set at a higher pace, I’m fairly satisfied with these results.

Question 4 was for those of you who wished to further express your opinion. (And yes, I did read all of them even if we can’t print them all here!)
The most common response was that the lower levels were too slow, while the higher levels went by too fast. We have no plans to adjust the leveling speed for the current game, but we’ll certainly take these comments into consideration when tweaking the pace for version 2.0.

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Of course any pool can have many unknowns that will effect an persons vote. Knowlage of PL (i thought it was a banable expoit when i started, because i had never seen any other game allow such a thing, and i ran like hell ^^) Party availability etc.

What i find interesting is Yoshi-P's expectation of "Usual" being much higher on too slow. And where the respondants actually placed. Now depending on SE's goals for leveling speed they may or may not lower the leveling speed. But i would caution any ority (majority or minority) on avoiding compromise.

I have no experience in FF11. But i've played other slow grind, enforced X time to skill up. Seperate skill % gains, quick to max style exp systems. But i think the most reasonable stance for myself is that we are atleast for the current player base around the sweetspot, plus or minus.

Myself i have no desire to see level cap become a gated community. And i appritate how SE designed Job quests to bring party play in for additions to your class instead of roadblocks.

I can understand the desire for a more enjoyable journey before "end game" but enjoyable does not need to = slow either.
Some games try to extend that "joy" by making for example 5 slots of gear and giving 1 piece per those five levels. Giving the slow leveling a sense of improvement by gradually increasing a characters power. But when you then hit the 6th level, you start replaceing what was, a set. And this continues sometimes causing some people to just want to get to the end so they can have their gear and keep it.

My main point is everyone is going to have a differing opinion on the speed to get to cap. And everyone is going to have a different opinion on what is fun on the journey there.

And also whatever speed you personally belive is the correct one, look at our current style of content, not the dificulty per say, but the changing class/job requierments from one to another and multiply your desired speed times 7. That is what you will be asking new players coming in to ultimately obtain. And thats just concidering the combat classes (ignoring the current needs for Hamlet.)

Tl;DR; Everyone wants a fun journey, but if the destination sucks, thats no fun either. Theres plenty of room for both without making the journey long and slow.

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Originally Posted by Rutelor

Of course, Darkstar, nobody is about to take the competitiveness out of the game. Neither is anybody saying you should not, as an individual, beat us all to the endgame, if you so please. Those of us who agree in this thread are against the design trend that wants to make the path from beginning to endgame, short, quick, and perfunctory. That's a different thing.

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now that i completely agree with. i think leveling is much too fast and will hurt the game in the long run. i believe leveling from 1-cap should have an enjoyable journey there.

i took it as more of a slap against people that played the game hard to be the first to do something in your op. i apologize for mistaking the intention because i agree with the speed being too fast part.

@viritess i took his statement as saying he had it too fast on purpose, but didn't realize he has set it so fast that the majority of the people went away from feeling like the normal mmo players felt. i don't think he intended to get such a high percentage to believe it's just right because the norm for a mmo is the opposite. i don't even know if he realizes just how fast leveling in this game is atm because he added too many ways to increase sp and it's already been seen how well his Q&A team does at finding issues and bringing it to their attention..

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Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

@viritess i took his statement as saying he had it too fast on purpose, but didn't realize he has set it so fast that the majority of the people went away from feeling like the normal mmo players felt. i don't think he intended to get such a high percentage to believe it's just right because the norm for a mmo is the opposite. i don't even know if he realizes just how fast leveling in this game is atm because he added too many ways to increase sp and it's already been seen how well his Q&A team does at finding issues and bringing it to their attention..

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I suppose its open do debate exactly what hes thinking when he responded in that Dev Letter. But i think you may be readying too deeply into it. His wording, barring changes in translation, shows no real surprise to me. Just a comparison between most MMOs and this one, which he has set at a particular pace.

As far as SE knowing exactly how fast leveling takes I would wager they have more relevant numbers at their disposal about the entirety of the playerbase then we do in our particular circles.

QA questionable or not, past experience tells me the playerbase through sheer numbers will often find issues well before the developers themselves. So i would fail to see how the correlates to leveling speed, since the speed itself is "intentionally" set.

Though as i said in my reply, I shy away from delaring majority/minority besides the little evidence we've been provided. In all the most solid evidence we have been given is the players poll. I can't claim myself that a majority of players don't feel this is like an MMO, as you claim. I know it feels like an MMO to me, allbeit top heavy in levels in my smallish circle.

In Yoshi-p's Dev letter he said he was satisfied with the results. That does not mean he is satisfied with the current leveling speed being too fast, too slow or where it is now. I read that as being satisfied with the ruselts compared to where he has set the current leveling speed.

It will now be up to him/his group/and SE in general to decide at what speed they wish 2.0 to flow to cap. The real question i think we should focus on is not too fast or too slow. Its will there be content to take a class from 1-50 and be fun, and as un repetitive as possible? Will that content be able to survive a single person 7+ times from 1-50? is it Fun/interesting? Will it be the 4th 5th time doing it?

If a person who has all current combat classes maxed, no matter how you got there, sees an 8th class/job in 2.0. The once through new content is bount to be something interesting due to how new it is. But as current players, we may only have to roll through that content once. And not again until another class is released.

Its the new players. The people we're looking forward to joining us, and helping keep the game we injoy healthy, Vibrant, funded and ever growing we should be most concerned about as far as level speed goes. We know the tricks already. We're bound to be faster even if doing the same thing new players are.

And lastly i suppose i just don't always see level cap as the end of the journey. That greatly depends on SE and how they decide to proceed with story and "progression" at cap. Infact i belive the most challengeing journey may be the one you can't out level.

Since i'm a bit tired i may be rambling at this point. so i'll stop here and look forward to the discussion ^^

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Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

now that i completely agree with. i think leveling is much too fast and will hurt the game in the long run. i believe leveling from 1-cap should have an enjoyable journey there.

i took it as more of a slap against people that played the game hard to be the first to do something in your op. i apologize for mistaking the intention because i agree with the speed being too fast part.

@viritess i took his statement as saying he had it too fast on purpose, but didn't realize he has set it so fast that the majority of the people went away from feeling like the normal mmo players felt. i don't think he intended to get such a high percentage to believe it's just right because the norm for a mmo is the opposite. i don't even know if he realizes just how fast leveling in this game is atm because he added too many ways to increase sp and it's already been seen how well his Q&A team does at finding issues and bringing it to their attention..

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Yes, on retrospect, I should've done better with the title... it confused many, not just you.

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Originally Posted by Viritess

In Yoshi-p's Dev letter he said he was satisfied with the results. That does not mean he is satisfied with the current leveling speed being too fast, too slow or where it is now. I read that as being satisfied with the ruselts compared to where he has set the current leveling speed.

It will now be up to him/his group/and SE in general to decide at what speed they wish 2.0 to flow to cap. The real question i think we should focus on is not too fast or too slow. Its will there be content to take a class from 1-50 and be fun, and as un repetitive as possible? Will that content be able to survive a single person 7+ times from 1-50? is it Fun/interesting? Will it be the 4th 5th time doing it?

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don't get me wrong i am not trying to flame. i just looked at it as he was satisfied that so many people were so far outside of the norm 50-60% normally think it's too slow and here 50% think it is about right because he has it set intentionally high in this version to keep people within the same range with each other. the fact that he states himself that he has the speed intentionally high right now leads me to believe that it is only a temporary measure.

Yes please do slow the pace of leveling, i need more time to stare at the emptiness of the world as i grind on the 16478646467 gazillion dodo.....

I know... I play games to play the game...not just to play after the game ends...

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Originally Posted by XxOstiaxX

Yes please do slow the pace of leveling, i need more time to stare at the emptiness of the world as i grind on the 16478646467 gazillion dodo.....

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It's not going to be empty in 2.0, and IF they actually provide mid game content outside of one dungeon and repetitive levequests, it could be an entertaining experience to build your up character instead of a rush to get to the "good part". The whole experience should be the "good part".

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Originally Posted by Gramul

The whole experience should be the "good part".

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This is madness...

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Originally Posted by Punainen

I know... I play games to play the game...not just to play after the game ends...

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Hee hee.

R

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Originally Posted by Gramul

It's not going to be empty in 2.0, and if they actually provide mid game content outside of one dungeon and repetitive levequests, it could be an entertaining experience to build your up character instead of a rush to get to the "good part". The whole experience should be the "good part".

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Have you played 2.0 ? Are you a beta tester ? What ? Your answer is no ? Then do not tell me what will or will not be 2.0 since you, or anybody here has 0 idea.... Going by the model they have provided so far... well i think we both know what the outcome will be

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Originally Posted by XxOstiaxX

Have you played 2.0? Are you a beta tester? What? Your answer is no? Then do not tell me what will or will not be 2.0 since you, or anybody here has 0 idea.... Going by the model they have provided so far...well, I think we both know what the outcome will be.

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Woo. Snippy.

This is only a suggestion thread dude. No definitive answers here.

However, we know for a fact 2.0 will have more variety in its terrain and with its mobs. And interviews also suggest Yoshi wants quests to matter as a form of progression, so it's not outrageous to suggest it. The model they provided us so far is being changed. That's the whole point of 2.0.

it is my feeling that in 2.0. the game will have multiple story-lines we can play through that will each be the quality of previous Final Fantasy games, hence why they are giving us multiple characters to play with on a server. it has been stated that areas will be quest hubs for the level of that area. That probably means there will be main story quests and either repeatable or non-repeatable side quests in each area. in addition to the levequests.
I think the design they are going for with this game will also make it appeal more to players who have not stepped foot into the Final Fantasy MMO concept. if there are 1-4+ main story-lines that are in essence each equivalent to a single player Final Fantasy game as you level and play through it; it will bring in those players even if they don't stick around for end game. In 1.0, in my opinion, the biggest flaw of the game was that there truthfully was not enough story and what story there was, was spread thin. Ultimately you have two primary types of players, people who play for the story and people who play for ego.
There is only a skeleton crew left working on 1.0 content at this point. the game and story will be totally new in 2.0. Someone mentioned this thread was a little late but in truth. I think the thread is a little early. We'll know at alpha if it has been worth the wait to support this game. IMO, it is.
I hope that I am right about SE making multiple stories to play in this game. Even if there is a main story that is picked up at some point, I think that each nation should continue to have their own main story as well

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Originally Posted by XxOstiaxX

Yes please do slow the pace of leveling, i need more time to stare at the emptiness of the world as i grind on the 16478646467 gazillion dodo.....

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Is this your first final fantasy game? There will be some type of grind if they stay true to the genre. All the way back to the first NES game through 14 grinding has been a large part of the process.

I am mildly curious but.
Why do you people apparently equate 'level cap' with 'endgame'?

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Originally Posted by Skies

I am mildly curious but.
Why do you people apparently equate 'level cap' with 'endgame'?

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Because MMO's generally don't have one overarching storyline as the central focus of the game like single player RPGs do. There is no traditional endgame from defeating a "final boss", so the next best thing is judging progress by your characters development. Especially sense you play with other players.

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Originally Posted by Skies

I am mildly curious but.
Why do you people apparently equate 'level cap' with 'endgame'?

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You're quite right. We shouldn't.

However, the content that exists right now for capped players has been shorthanded to "endgame" by the community, despite the fact that it isn't. Or at least that it plainly does not feel like it. People called it like that, I imagine, because it was what the found at the end of their class progression. And the name stuck.

R

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Originally Posted by Gramul

The whole experience should be the "good part".

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+2

/10char

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Originally Posted by Babydoll

I don't mind quest leveling that much...but it takes a bit away from the social aspect of the game. In XI and L2 when grinding on XP mobs I actually had to function in a group as a whole...not just alone. >< It taught me a lot about the game and how my job worked :) Even in Aion that has quest grinding, you can also make a PT and go into the "strongholds" and do regular exp pt.

But yea this is Final Fantasy...and FF is known for new, innovative ideas and game breaking/changing ideas. That is the standard that Sakeguchi gave that company when he ran it. That is why all the old FF's got very high reviews (And dont forget Chrono Trigger :D ) because they were so innovative that they changed the way gaming worked.

They would set new high standards for RPG's. That is what I still except from my favorite game company. Now...having the wow/aion quest grinding is far form innovative and game breaking. I except much more from Yoshi and SE. I have high hopes that 2.0 will be like what FF7 did for video games (Not just RPG's) which is why I am hoping it is not just copy/paste system of Aion and wow :o

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There is no reason why quest leveling and party leveling couldn't coexist. I've often spoken, like Yoshida seems to have done too, of 2 different avenues of progression within one single game: One through which you acquire experience in solo conditions, and another one, perhaps more rewarding in exp, in which you do it within group. Party leveling could be achieved both through collective questing, or through collective grinding (camps). There could be two branches in the quest tree, corresponding to these two avenues. Players could alternate play styles and choose which path to follow in any given day.

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Originally Posted by Rutelor

There is no reason why quest leveling and party leveling couldn't coexist. I've often spoken, like Yoshida seems to have done too, of 2 different avenues of progression within one single game: One through which you acquire experience in solo conditions, and another one, perhaps more rewarding in exp, in which you do it within group. Party leveling could be achieved both through collective questing, or through collective grinding (camps). There could be two branches in the quest tree, corresponding to these two avenues. Players could alternate play styles and choose which path to follow in any given day.

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It's the purpose of the Armory System with classes and jobs.