Evidence that Macros Do NOT Cause GCD Delay or Lost Casts

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Originally Posted by SubmarineAlt

This post has also convinced me that you don't know what "queue" means in the context of GCDs.

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Or he's a really dedicated troll.

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Originally Posted by SubmarineAlt

For the record, I was using the first video in your post, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsZo2iWJDrs. Because I'm not going to go through you hard casting Bliz 1 40ish times

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Gotcha, so what you're saying is that you didn't watch the video that actually does the tests that the entire post was about, and instead watched a different video that doesn't do any tests.

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Originally Posted by SubmarineAlt

because apparently you doing your rotation properly for your "proofs" is impossible

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I did the same kind of test as the video I was debunking. And while I successfully debunked the video, I respect that the creator of that video knew how to properly construct an experiment. When performing experiments, the ideal is to make the experiment as simple as possible to mitigate the potential of the results being impacted by confounding variables.

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Originally Posted by SubmarineAlt

Instead of ignoring the bulk of my message and dancing around the issue, simply provide actual video evidence of your assertion.

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You've demonstrated that you haven't made the effort to entirely read or understand my post, nor have you even bothered to watch the experiment I ran that was the whole point of the post. Without even looking at the data, you've written multiple posts trying to undermine it.

The bulk of your message was ignored because the bulk of your message was you describing a video that you wanted me to make. Especially when I already made a video that you didn't watch, and the video you want me to make doesn't even follow any manner of scientific method.

If you don't want to look at the data that already exists, feel free not to. But if you want to call the data I've provided into question, I recommend that the first step you take be to actually look at the data so you have any idea what you're talking about.

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Originally Posted by SubmarineAlt

I gave you the benefit of the doubt once.

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Alt, you didn't even watch the video. Do not flatter yourself; you have given me nothing.

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Originally Posted by SubmarineAlt

This is interesting actually. This Macro will cause you to always lose 0-3 frames on Flare Star, 0-2 frames on Fire 4, and you have a 50/50 chance of losing 1 frame if the macro happens to land in the middle.

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You're actually engaging reasonably with this part, so I'll treat with you in good faith on this one. Your analysis is technically correct, but the way you present it risks being misleading. You lose 3 lead-in frames on a Flare Star when it is cast unchained, and you lose 2 lead-in frames on a Fire IV when it is cast unchained. But when you chain them, you lose 0 lead-in frames. Then as you correctly stated, in addition to all lead-in frames, you lose either 0 or 1 additional frames. Which means that if you're actually queuing your casts (which you should be if you want to maximize your APM) then you're going to only have a 50/50 chance to lose 1 frame.

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Originally Posted by SubmarineAlt

That's assuming the thing even fires.

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I'm so curious about you having said this multiple times. I've been using macros for the better part of a decade now, and I've never had one that doesn't fire. I suppose it's possible that there's some nuance to certain computer specs or something that results in macros not working sometimes, but I would guess it's more likely that you haven't yet grown accustomed to the feel for when to press certain macros you've used. There is certainly a learning curve, but once you learn it, it's consistent. At least, in my experience it has been, but I play on consoles where things tend to be more uniform and have less variation.

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Originally Posted by SubmarineAlt

DO NOT ENCOURAGE THIS. Some Spell Speed thresholds literally only have a few frames to complete before you drop fire. This Macro will, literally, cause people to lose Astral fire when they otherwise would have been fine.

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You act like I'm telling players to use this macro, rather than simply sharing it with someone who asked to see it. I've already said numerous times that macros are not one-size-fits-all and that they will generally need to be tailored to the system and the needs of the player, so it should be clear to anyone who has read this thread that I'm not saying, "Hey everyone, use this specific macro!" It simply demonstrates a technique that players can use if they want.

Because I've gone to the effort of informing them about how macros function and what their pros and cons are, I trust my fellow player to know whether a macro they're using is causing them issues. If a player finds that they are regularly missing their Astral Fire by a few frames, then yeah, one possible change would be to stop using a specific macro, or to find a way to adjust it so that it works better for them. Whatever that specific player chooses is fine.

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Originally Posted by SubmarineAlt

This one is actually worse than the above. If you press the Macro and it is able to fire on the last line, you straight up waste Manafont.

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Yeah, if you press it and your GCD doesn't cast but you don't want Manafont, you're right that you'll waste Manafont. The solution is to not press it at these times. For any player who thinks they'll have problems with this, I recommend not using this macro. I've never had an issue with an ability firing when I don't want to in a macro of this kind, because timing macro button presses isn't an issue for me. For people who feel similarly, this is an effective macro.

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Originally Posted by SubmarineAlt

You have to spam it.

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I genuinely don't know why you would say this; macros should never be spammed, unless the macro was specifically designed with that in mind. Which none of my macros are.

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Originally Posted by SubmarineAlt

Or, you WANT to hit Manafont, but you also need to save the F3 for future use. That's straight impossible with this now.

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This is true! If you find that you have situations where you want to cast Manafont from a stand-still, then you won't be able to. This hasn't been an issue for me, as my ideal times to cast Manafont overwhelmingly occur when my GCD is recovering after an instant-cast. That said, like all macros, anyone who finds that to be "not worth it" should definitely not use this specific macro.

That's the great thing about macros: you customize them to your needs, and if even after that they don't fit your needs, you simply don't use them. Whichever path you take, as long as you make an informed decision, you'll end up with results that are suited to your needs.

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Originally Posted by PommesFrites

Apologies for pestering you more, @Lilimo, but after some experimentation I've managed to nearly consolidate everything for Lv 100 BLM to the one set of 16 XHB slots and it feels pretty good!

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Congratulations! I'm really glad you've got things feeling nice for yourself. ^^

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Originally Posted by PommesFrites

I'm struggling to figure out what to do with role actions (aside from Swiftcast) and potions, though. In the worst case scenario, I don't suppose I would need to map Sleep or Lucid Dreaming, but I would definitely like access to the rest of them at all times. How do you handle these in your setup?

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Honestly, both of these I use so infrequently that I put them in some of the more inconvenient parts of the controller for me. They're not even macros, just the normal actions.

If you want to show me what you're working with, I'd be happy to roll out some possible suggestions tailored to your setup that may or may not suit your tastes. Whether you type out your macros or just make a quick video scrolling through them, either is fine. But no pressure! Especially because from what I'm hearing, it sounds like you have things working better for your BLM than I do following the Dawntrail adjustments! ^^

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

/ac "Transpose"
/crosshotbar copy BLM 4 BLM 1
/ac "Transpose"
/ac "Transpose"
/ac "Transpose"
/ac "Transpose"
/ac "Transpose"
/ac "Transpose"
/ac "Transpose"
/ac "Transpose"
/ac "Transpose"
/ac "Transpose"
/ac "Transpose"
/ac "Transpose"
/macroicon "Transpose"

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I'm also using a similar macro. Mine only toggles XHBs (Astral Fire / Umbral Ice) and sets Transpose action on the slot of itself, so I need to press the same button twice to Transpose.

/macrolock
/crosshotbar copy BLM 2 BLM 3
/crosshotbar copy BLM 1 BLM 2
/crosshotbar copy BLM 3 BLM 1
/crosshotbar set Transpose 1 RAU
/macroicon Transpose action <wait.1>
/crosshotbar copy BLM 3 BLM 1

This is based on a macro I saw somewhere in Japan. I suppose that this type of macro should be allowed, even if using actions in macros remains controversial.

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Originally Posted by Sensui

I can barely use a pot after a weapon skill (no not in a macro. Just from the hotbar) without having to time it "just so" without the risk of the pot not going off and me just mashing the button angrily as the rest of the world around me keeps hitting the boss and my opener getting fubard.. my experience has never been great with macros. Timing issues aside, they just get hung up and don't work sometimes.

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That used to be an issue with pots due to them not only lacking the action queue but also having a seemingly much longer animation lock, it has however been pretty much fixed in Dawntrail to the point where you can double weave your pot and an oGCD in the same window without clipping.

Now only Sprint suffers from the issue of not queing, one of the reasons that a Sprint macro is actually just flat out better than the normal Sprint action...and I guess buff food.

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Originally Posted by Mikoko_Miko

I'm also using a similar macro. Mine only toggles XHBs (Astral Fire / Umbral Ice) and sets Transpose action on the slot of itself, so I need to press the same button twice to Transpose.

/macrolock
/crosshotbar copy BLM 2 BLM 3
/crosshotbar copy BLM 1 BLM 2
/crosshotbar copy BLM 3 BLM 1
/crosshotbar set Transpose 1 RAU
/macroicon Transpose action <wait.1>
/crosshotbar copy BLM 3 BLM 1

This is based on a macro I saw somewhere in Japan. I suppose that this type of macro should be allowed, even if using actions in macros remains controversial.

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I mean, you're allowed to use any kind of macro you want; if it works for you, then it works for you.

This is interesting; I've never seen a macro quite like it before!

It looks like it locks the macro so it can't be interrupted, then swaps XHB 1 and 2 using XHB 3 as temporary storage, then temporarily puts Transpose in an action slot for a single second before wiping it out again with a final paste. So if I understand correctly, your XHB 1 and 2 are for Astral Fire and Umbral Ice, and this button can be manually used to swaps those bars, which then gives you a 1 second window so you can activate Transpose when you want to.

Huh...that's clever! I haven't used /macrolock much, probably because part of me wonders if there might be situations where I want to use another macro during that window which then wouldn't function properly. But I haven't fully thought that through, and to really understand whether /macrolock would hinder me at any given point I'd need to think about the different contexts I'd use it in. Or I could just give it a spin and see if it gives me any trouble. That would probably be better than being superstitious about it, so I'll start thinking about whether there are any situations where this kind of macro could benefit my play.

Thanks for sharing this with me! ^^

I love how OP takes everyone's criticism and just goes

"You haven't read anything"

"Watch the video"

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

Can you clarify whether you are you literally talking about every cast in the video, or a subset of casts? I want to make sure I understand what you're saying so I can take a proper look.

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Read the whole post.

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Originally Posted by Collin_Sky

I could notice a delay after every single GCD when using macros.

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Originally Posted by SubmarineAlt

They do, because that's the only way to definitively prove things. You're also telling people "Want proof? Do this!" When your suggestion has absolutely nothing to do with the GCD. OP absolutely has an obligation to give REAL evidence.

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The method in my post proves that even just macroerror adds a delay (as do all lines in a macro), and subsequently that there is an inherent delay inbetween each action (which is not insignificant), regardless of GCD or not.

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

I'm genuinely unsure what you think you're demonstrating here. By mashing two macros alternately, each macro has the potential to interrupt both itself and the other macro; that's part of why in my first post I clearly recommend that macros not be mashed. Don't do that and you'll be fine.

As an aside, I've heard from others that /echo has some interesting timing behavior that differs from other macro commands such as /ac, though I haven't looked into it myself since I don't use /echo macros. I can't tell if that's part of what you're seeing since the mashing is obviously going to get in the way.

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What is being demonstrated is that each line in a macro adds a delay.
By exacerbating the issue through adding duplicate lines the issue as well as my point is made more clear: macros add an inherent delay independent of GCD.
It doesn't take much reasoning past that to infer that they are (to an extent) going to cause a loss in GCD.

I found this: [en]Macrology(the Third Edition)

It seems outdated by now, but very comprehensive! The translation is rough in some areas since it appears to be translated from Chinese originally, but I was able to follow it well enough. It includes the method posted earlier of swapping hotbars to an identical one with a queue-able action which then resets on a timer. This seems to be the most clever "compromise", but has very little room for mechanical imprecision (not masher friendly!).

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Originally Posted by PommesFrites

I found this: [en]Macrology(the Third Edition)

It seems outdated by now, but very comprehensive! The translation is rough in some areas since it appears to be translated from Chinese originally. It includes the method posted earlier of swapping hotbars to an identical one with a queue-able action which then resets on a timer. This seems to be the most clever "compromise", but has very little room for mechanical imprecision (not masher friendly!).

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This stuff is even worse than what OP is suggesting. Please do not do this.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...51fa4dd101685&

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Originally Posted by Collin_Sky

This stuff is even worse than what OP is suggesting. Please do not do this.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...51fa4dd101685&

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Did you... did you read any of the rest of it? This is literally an example of the use of <wait>, it has no endorsement one way or the other in the text. Goodness you folks are aggressive!

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Originally Posted by Mikoko_Miko

I'm also using a similar macro. Mine only toggles XHBs (Astral Fire / Umbral Ice) and sets Transpose action on the slot of itself, so I need to press the same button twice to Transpose.

/macrolock
/crosshotbar copy BLM 2 BLM 3
/crosshotbar copy BLM 1 BLM 2
/crosshotbar copy BLM 3 BLM 1
/crosshotbar set Transpose 1 RAU
/macroicon Transpose action <wait.1>
/crosshotbar copy BLM 3 BLM 1

This is based on a macro I saw somewhere in Japan. I suppose that this type of macro should be allowed, even if using actions in macros remains controversial.

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Yeah, macros that modify the UI is fair-game since that is all client side, thus not a victim of the ability queue issue OP constantly ignores.

Also sneaky to make the hotbars replace each other than to swap *to* the them. Can ignore the overlap between shared hotbars then for controller or rotate the entire bar like a wheel.

And guess that wait is to prevent accidental duplicate presses? Since that's something I've been having issue with when trying bar swapping macros, least on the same button.

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

I mean, you're allowed to use any kind of macro you want; if it works for you, then it works for you.

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Thank you for your comment. I agree with you. I just wanted to nullify one of the reasons for not using macros.

My purpose of /macrolock is for ensuring overwrite by the last line. I use it because I don't have BLM macros other than Aetherial Manipulation and it seems easy to extend it to 4 XHBs ((Fire / Ice) * (Single / Multi)) without worry. Original Transpose macros I saw were two separate macros (fire to ice and ice to fire) and I united them. As a heavy user of macros, it is always necessary for me to save slots in macro editor. As the saying goes, necessity is the mother of invention. If I want to execute other macros within a window, I will simply delete macrolock and add "/chotbar copy" to those macros. If I feel pressing twice uncomfortable, I will assign the same macro to the left and right sides. If I want to use similar macros with other DPS jobs, I will apply it to make 1-2-3 combo to 1-1-1-1-1-1.

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Originally Posted by GrizzlyTank

And guess that wait is to prevent accidental duplicate presses? Since that's something I've been having issue with when trying bar swapping macros, least on the same button.

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It is macrolock rather than wait that prevents accidental duplicate presses. /macrolock prevents the execution of any additional macros until all steps have been executed. I guess macrolock may solve your problem.

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Originally Posted by GrizzlyTank

Yeah, macros that modify the UI is fair-game since that is all client side, thus not a victim of the ability queue issue OP constantly ignores.

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Probably there might be misunderstandings. Afaik OP didn't ignore the ability queue issue. There is an article which was originally posted in Japanese language and OP translated into English. "pseudo-pre-input" works like a queue.

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

...snip...
〇 If you make a weapon skill into a macro with a 15-line pseudo-pre-input macro, you can input it ahead of time

but the input time is short

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And here is a video by the author of this article. It compares GCD delay of normal actions and macros.

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Originally Posted by Mikoko_Miko

Recently I found the following video.
https://youtu.be/sns_9GhUTqU

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But until now I didn't take ping or latency issues into consideration. I'm not aware of them since I live near JP servers. If their effects are significant, I need to investigate. I will try DC traveling to Oceania DC.

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Originally Posted by Collin_Sky

So I just watched your video, because honestly at this point I figured I'd humor you, and something felt really off, I could notice a delay after every single GCD when using macros. It's really, really noticeable when watching it, I physically felt something was wrong (I have autism so this genuinely triggers that sort of reaction in me when I can tell something is off). I even had to mute the video and watch it without sound to make sure I wasn't imagining it due to the UI sounds.
I even logged into the game and tested my GCD to make sure I wasn't wrong and ground myself to something I can control.

My dude, you are definitely clipping on every single GCD, if you say you're not, I'm convinced you don't actually know what clipping is, or just haven't learned to feel small instances of clipping (similar to how some people can't tell the difference between 30fps and 60fps). But you are 100% clipping in your video. The GCD isn't smooth when it rolls over onto the next.
The video I watched, since you called someone else out for using the wrong video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-LgAGXETgA

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I watched the video again, and I'm guessing what you're seeing is simply the difference in the timing of the button presses for macros and non-macros; when a button is pressed, it creates a flash over the button icons that temporarily obscures the GCD. For macros, this flash occurs much closer to the time the GCD rolls over than for non-macros, because macros have a shorter window in which they can be pressed to not clip the GCD. This results in an aesthetic difference, and I think this is what you are probably seeing.

However, I'm not satisfied with just thinking something; I wanted to get data that could either support or deny my hypothesis. So I started with some math.

That footage was taken on a PS5 running in performance mode at 60 fps. In that context, a single frame takes 1/60 of a second. There were 25 casts per test in that video. If there was a delay of even a single frame on each cast, then that would result in a roughly 0.4 second disparity between the macro test and the non-macro test. That's nearly half a second, which is a large enough disparity that we should easily be able to see it with the naked eye in the video.

As luck would have it, the macro test's 25th castbar completes right before the timer drops from 2:02 to 2:01. This is really convenient because it makes it super easy to compare this with the timing of the non-macro test. So to find out whether this delay exists, we just check the non-macro test as the timer goes from 2:02 to 2:01. If at that time the castbar has just completed, then we'll be able to tell that there isn't a 0.4 second disparity, and thus that there haven't been any frame delays. But if the 25th non-macro cast completes more than a quarter of a second earlier than the moment the clock rolls from 2:02 to 2:01, then that's evidence that every macro cast has clipped the GCD.

And sure enough, we can see that the castbar completion for the 25th non-macro cast doesn't occur 0.4 seconds early, which supports the hypothesis. So whatever you're seeing, the APM isn't dropping, and thus it can't be clipping. Conveniently, FF14's UI flashes whenever button is pressed, and thus in both tests you can very clearly see that I press a button only once for every cast, and that all of these presses occur before the GCD is available.

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Originally Posted by Rin_Sato

What is being demonstrated is that each line in a macro adds a delay.

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I explain this in my initial post: every single line of a macro runs in order, with one line running per frame. Depending on how we build our macro, this can either be a boon or a detriment, which is why it's important to understand how macros function so that you can lean into the strengths and avoid the pitfalls of the weaknesses.

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Originally Posted by Rin_Sato

By exacerbating the issue through adding duplicate lines the issue as well as my point is made more clear: macros add an inherent delay independent of GCD.

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It's odd that you claim that duplicate lines are "exacerbating the issue" and "adding a delay", when they're providing desired functionality. If I'm getting what I want, that's not an issue.

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Originally Posted by Rin_Sato

It doesn't take much reasoning past that to infer that they are (to an extent) going to cause a loss in GCD.

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I can see how you'd come to that conclusion, but this reasoning is flawed because it fails to take into account the primary means by which GCD loss actually occurs in game: clipping. In FF14 we cast our skills and spells in chains by taking advantage of queuing, thus minimizing the delay between the GCD becoming available and the triggering of our next skill. Because of this, we can actually leverage what you're framing as a downside into a powerful tool that will allow us to avoid clipping.

But rather than trust an armchair theory, why not simply engage with hard data? Check out the video evidence I provided in my first post, and let me know if you can see a meaningful difference between in the GCD.

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Originally Posted by PommesFrites

I found this: [en]Macrology(the Third Edition)

It seems outdated by now, but very comprehensive! The translation is rough in some areas since it appears to be translated from Chinese originally, but I was able to follow it well enough. It includes the method posted earlier of swapping hotbars to an identical one with a queue-able action which then resets on a timer. This seems to be the most clever "compromise", but has very little room for mechanical imprecision (not masher friendly!).

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Interesting, thanks for providing this! I'm looking forward to perusing this when I have the time! ^^

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Originally Posted by Mikoko_Miko

Thank you for your comment. I agree with you. I just wanted to nullify one of the reasons for not using macros.

My purpose of /macrolock is for ensuring overwrite by the last line. I use it because I don't have BLM macros other than Aetherial Manipulation and it seems easy to extend it to 4 XHBs ((Fire / Ice) * (Single / Multi)) without worry. Original Transpose macros I saw were two separate macros (fire to ice and ice to fire) and I united them. As a heavy user of macros, it is always necessary for me to save slots in macro editor. As the saying goes, necessity is the mother of invention. If I want to execute other macros within a window, I will simply delete macrolock and add "/chotbar copy" to those macros. If I feel pressing twice uncomfortable, I will assign the same macro to the left and right sides. If I want to use similar macros with other DPS jobs, I will apply it to make 1-2-3 combo to 1-1-1-1-1-1.

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That makes perfect sense! I go hardcore on my BLM macros so I'm willing to give them as much space as they need...I think right now I have 23 BLM-specific macros? But I very much feel the limitations of only 200 macro slots, as right now I'm capped at 200 and thus have to delete a macro if I ever want to add a new one...

"Necessity is the mother of invention" indeed; that's why I started researching macros in the first place! And it's nice to know that if push ever comes to shove and I really need to clear out some space, there are other options that I can use to condense some of these macros! ^^

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

I watched the video again, and I'm guessing what you're seeing is simply the difference in the timing of the button presses for macros and non-macros.

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No. There is literally a delay in the GCD. I can tell the difference between a button press and the GCD not rolling correctly. I've been playing consistently since 1.0, I know the difference. Don't patronise me.

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

we should easily be able to see it with the naked eye in the video.

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Stop trying to eyeball things, lmao. This is not how you prove your theory correctly.

You're really grasping at straws to defend yourself. As others have suggested (but you've ignored when it's mentioned) uploading to the website people use to get empirical data on things such as this would solve literally all debate and give you the ultimate proof of whether you're right or wrong. Instead, you not only avoid doing this but have also hidden your character from appearing.

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Originally Posted by PommesFrites

I found this: [en]Macrology(the Third Edition).

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This is awesome. I learned about macros with scattered information here and there, but this is summed up and systematic. It also deals with my current matter of interest. Thank you for sharing.

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Local Processing

Macro and text command instead player's operation. All these will change to a same form in system. All player's operation is local, so macro and text command are also local. They will be executed at once no matter how poor your network connection is.

You may feel disagree with this, for when network connection is poor, macro works not well. This is actually because macro is running as before, but connection with server is not as before. When you use a crafting macro, some actions missing if network connection is poor, this not because macro are influenced by network connection, but macro execute its commands as usual while character cannot receive commands due to poor network connection.

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

Everything below here is the article, the original text can be found at: https://jp.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes.../blog/4722988/.

Other than that, the 14-line consecutive tapping pseudo-pre-input macro has the advantage that you can pre-input from outside the attack range. Since you can't pre-input from outside the range of a normal skill, it's difficult to "attack the moment you come within range" manually. However, the 14-line consecutive tapping macro makes this possible, so for example, you can "run up and hit Onslaught the moment you come within Onslaught's range"

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After rereading this article, a Gedankenexperiment occurred to me.

Scenario
Some battles have a gimmick that a target disappear and reappear after an interval. You cannot attack before retarget. A macro user replaces only the first action of a GCD chain with the following macro and continues with normal actions.

/targetenemy
/action [GCD action name]
/targetenemy
/action [GCD action name]
/targetenemy
/action [GCD action name]
/targetenemy
/action [GCD action name]
/targetenemy
/action [GCD action name]
/targetenemy
/action [GCD action name]
/targetenemy
/action [GCD action name]
/macroicon [GCD action name] action

As in the article this macro is expected to be pseudo-queued even before reappearance and fire action immediately after retarget. It has a roughly fifty-fifty chance of 1 frame clipping. Because normal actions cannot be queued before retarget, it is very likely that the clipping of normal actions exceeds 1 frame. Therefore macros don't innately cause GCD delay.

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Originally Posted by Mikoko_Miko

After rereading this article, a Gedankenexperiment occurred to me.

Scenario
Some battles have a gimmick that a target disappear and reappear after an interval. You cannot attack before retarget. A macro user replaces only the first action of a GCD chain with the following macro and continues with normal actions.

/targetenemy
/action [GCD action name]
/targetenemy
/action [GCD action name]
/targetenemy
/action [GCD action name]
/targetenemy
/action [GCD action name]
/targetenemy
/action [GCD action name]
/targetenemy
/action [GCD action name]
/targetenemy
/action [GCD action name]
/macroicon [GCD action name] action

As in the article this macro is expected to be pseudo-queued even before reappearance and fire action immediately after retarget. It has a roughly fifty-fifty chance of 1 frame clipping. Because normal actions cannot be queued before retarget, it is very likely that the clipping of normal actions exceeds 1 frame. Therefore macros don't innately cause GCD delay.

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Or just use the function built into the game instead of harming your gameplay with macros
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...135cfe38f0340&

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Originally Posted by Collin_Sky

Or just use the function built into the game instead of harming your gameplay with macros

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It is new to me since it is disabled by default and my main role is a healer. I found it very convenient. Many thanks for useful information.

The point of my thought experiment is whether it is (pseudo-)queued if you execute before reappearance or not, so I update my macro.

/action [GCD action name] × 14 lines
/macroicon [GCD action name] action

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Originally Posted by Collin_Sky

No. There is literally a delay in the GCD. I can tell the difference between a button press and the GCD not rolling correctly.

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Clearly you can't, otherwise the in-game timers would support your claim. The actual timer in the game is more reliable than your eyeballs. Speaking of which...

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Originally Posted by Collin_Sky

Stop trying to eyeball things, lmao.

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Are you sure you didn't intend to send this message to yourself? Because it's your own advice, and yet you don't seem interested in taking it, even when your human eyeballs think they see something that is contradicted by the software timer.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Collin_Sky

You're really grasping at straws to defend yourself.

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Collin, again you are projecting. I performed a test where the in-game timer shows that the timing difference you're worried about doesn't exist, and I've made the video showing the experiments and its results publicly available. If you would prefer to ignore that data, that's your call. Regardless, the data is here for anyone who is interested in the scientific method and is genuinely interested in learning the unbiased truth.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Collin_Sky

uploading to the website people use to get empirical data on things such as this

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Can you be more specific about which website you'd like me to use, and how I would go about uploading data to it?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Collin_Sky

This stuff is even worse than what OP is suggesting. Please do not do this.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...51fa4dd101685&

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That's an interesting way you chose to crop this image so that it cuts off the description.

And it's interesting how you've isolated this specific example from its context in a way that implies that the author is suggesting something they very much aren't.

For those who are interested in understanding what Collin has — either through carelessness or malice — misrepresented, I encourage you to skim the actual source material they cherry-picked that image from and read about what the author actually has to say about using the /ac command in macros: https://github.com/FFXIVMacrology/Ma...%20Edition).md

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PommesFrites

I found this: [en]Macrology(the Third Edition)

It seems outdated by now, but very comprehensive! The translation is rough in some areas since it appears to be translated from Chinese originally, but I was able to follow it well enough. It includes the method posted earlier of swapping hotbars to an identical one with a queue-able action which then resets on a timer. This seems to be the most clever "compromise", but has very little room for mechanical imprecision (not masher friendly!).

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Gosh, this is such an interesting read! I'm taking my time with this so I'm not finished yet, just savoring a bit here and there in moments where I have some time and want to put a smile on my face. I really love the way the author explains many of the concepts, some of which I've used myself but would probably have struggled to succinctly describe!

But mainly, thanks for this source of education and joy! ^^

I'm starting to think this thread is just OP and his alt coping about macros.

One things for sure.
Macro VPR will still outdamage BiS MCH

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

Clearly you can't, otherwise the in-game timers would support your claim. The actual timer in the game is more reliable than your eyeballs. Speaking of which...


Are you sure you didn't intend to send this message to yourself? Because it's your own advice, and yet you don't seem interested in taking it, even when your human eyeballs think they see something that is contradicted by the software timer.

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There is a massive difference between noticing a lack of smoothness/brief pause in the GCD rolling correctly than trying to time a 0.4 second difference by eye. There's a reason I brought up the example of how some people can and can't tell the difference between 30FPS and 60FPS. You can notice the difference, but you can't time exactly how many frames are actually displayed per second by eye.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

Can you be more specific about which website you'd like me to use, and how I would go about uploading data to it?

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You know exactly what website I'm talking about.
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...848b4d0e48f13&

Again though, you deflect from criticism to any point you can dismiss. There is a 100% certain way to prove it and you ignore it. I figured you'd want the ability to finally prove to everyone you're right in terms we can't deny?

It's really tiring, honestly, to debate this issue with you for you to fall back on "LOOK, I MADE A VIDEO IT PROVES I'M RIGHT" when we have ways that can identify, to the exact millisecond, when every single ability fires as determined by the game.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Collin_Sky

There is a massive difference between noticing a lack of smoothness/brief pause in the GCD rolling correctly than trying to time a 0.4 second difference by eye.

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You're right, there is a massive difference: the 0.4 second difference is 24 times larger than the 1-frame clipping you claim to be able to see. To pretend that you wouldn't be able to see any difference in 24 frames when you claim to be able to see a difference in only 1 frame is disingenuous.

I don't doubt that the UI might look different than your local UI, but that can be explained by many factors that are unrelated to macros clipping, one of which I've already suggested. If the aesthetic difference was due to macro clipping, then there would be at least a 0.4 second difference in the results of the macro and non-macro tests. Thus, basic logic states that if that difference isn't there, then there's no clipping, and the explanation for whatever you think you're seeing is something else.

The video evidence provided and the math contradict your claim. If you can point out a genuine, measurable flaw in my rebuttal, I welcome that. But "my naked eyes see clipping in a way that's mathematically impossible" isn't going to cut it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Collin_Sky

You know exactly what website I'm talking about.

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I'm pretty sure I must not. Because if I did know what you were talking about, that would mean that you were encouraging me to use a 3rd party tool that violates the ToS and thus puts my account at risk.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Collin_Sky

I figured you'd want the ability to finally prove to everyone you're right in terms we can't deny?

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See, that's the funny thing. You can have all the evidence in the world, and there will always be people who won't be convinced. People still believe the Earth is flat. People still believe that vaccines cause autism. People believe all of that and so much more, even though there's a bountiful body of evidence that demonstrates otherwise.

There is no amount of data I could provide to convince someone who is truly invested in the narrative that "macros are bad" to change their tune. In fact, contrary to what you'd think, research shows that this would be more likely to cause folks to double-down on their previously held beliefs than to adopt new ones. Human brains can be weird like that.

Because of that, my focus will never be on trying to convince people who aren't open to being convinced; that will always be a losing battle. Instead, my aim is to reach the people who are capable of taking an unbiased and critical look at the data, and then following that to its logical conclusion.

Thankfully, that's a fairly straightforward task, because all those people have to do is read this thread. They can read my comments, read your comments, read everyone else's comments, and then they can employ their own critical thinking to determine who has the most convincing arguments and where the data leads.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PommesFrites

I found this: [en]Macrology(the Third Edition)

It seems outdated by now, but very comprehensive! The translation is rough in some areas since it appears to be translated from Chinese originally, but I was able to follow it well enough. It includes the method posted earlier of swapping hotbars to an identical one with a queue-able action which then resets on a timer. This seems to be the most clever "compromise", but has very little room for mechanical imprecision (not masher friendly!).

---

I finally got finished reading this, and I'm really glad I did! The author and I don't see eye-to-eye on a few things, but thanks to that they've invented an entirely different method of queuing actions from macros. It's incredibly interesting!

In particular, I really like the way they use macros like this...

/ac Shifu
/hotbar change 6
/micon Shifu

...to allow them to change hotbars and press the actual default Shifu button (on hotbar 6) with a simple double-tap, thus allowing the user to cleverly take advantage of macros while also pressing normal buttons to get that half-second queue duration when desired.

Personally, I'm not sure if I'd ever want to double-tap my buttons, but it's absolutely brilliant for those who do. And if I ever run into a situation where my macro queuing technique doesn't seem to be cutting it (like maybe if I age to the extent where I can't time my inputs so precisely) then it's nice to have alternatives.

But most of all, I'm just excited to see the creativity of my other macro users as they find interesting ways to make the most of macros and navigate around their limitations.

Finally, I had to share my favorite quote from the article:

There is no absolutely perfect macro, but you can find your own perfect.

It's such an elegant summary of how I think about macros. Thanks again for sharing it!

I'm glad it was useful to you! I remember being very interested when I first found it, too...I wish it weren't left unfinished, I would really love to know what was supposed to go in the advanced sections. I think macros would not be in the game if they weren't meant to be used in whatever ways people want to use them, and no fights outside of maybe Ultimate difficulty are designed with such tight DPS checks that any imprecisions can't be forgiven. It does not matter and has not ever mattered to me to inflict this potential handicap on myself to make other, much more important and severe handicaps manageable in whatever way I am able to. It is a shame that there is such a stigma against them in the English-speaking web, otherwise I expect there would be a lot more development than this several year-old markdown document translated from Chinese to describe clever methods of working with them.

I searched Chinese websites using "最终幻想14 宏学" (Final Fantasy 14 Macrology) as keywords. I could not find updated public documents. Instead, I found some videos on bilibili.com (YouTube-like website in China). Hotbar changing macros seem to be widely used in Chinese community. They also use macros very creatively. I've not imagined to make board games nor adventure games using in-game macros.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mikoko_Miko

I searched Chinese websites using "最终幻想14 宏学" (Final Fantasy 14 Macrology) as keywords. I could not find updated public documents. Instead, I found some videos on bilibili.com (YouTube-like website in China). Hotbar changing macros seem to be widely used in Chinese community. They also use macros very creatively. I've not imagined to make board games nor adventure games using in-game macros.

---

Interesting, I can see how you would make an adventure game. Much as described in the Macrology text I read, you could use each hotbar as a "state", with different macros representing different actions to change that state, and presumably output text to the dialogue box to explain the new state as well as the new branching choices you have in the new state. That's neat! Kind of like making a game in Twine, but it's being made in FF14; I'm sure Yoshi-P never intended that kind of thing, and that's what makes it so creative and cool. ^^

I'm a bit confused about how to make a board game work, though. Maybe with Waymarkers (A, B, C, Triangle, Square, etc)? Or maybe lining up all the hotbars so they form a grid? Though that all seems like it would take more than 200 macro slots, unless they're using some very interesting techniques that I haven't even begun to consider yet. Does the way they do it make sense to you when you see it?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PommesFrites

I'm glad it was useful to you! I remember being very interested when I first found it, too...I wish it weren't left unfinished, I would really love to know what was supposed to go in the advanced sections. I think macros would not be in the game if they weren't meant to be used in whatever ways people want to use them, and no fights outside of maybe Ultimate difficulty are designed with such tight DPS checks that any imprecisions can't be forgiven. It does not matter and has not ever mattered to me to inflict this potential handicap on myself to make other, much more important and severe handicaps manageable in whatever way I am able to. It is a shame that there is such a stigma against them in the English-speaking web, otherwise I expect there would be a lot more development than this several year-old markdown document translated from Chinese to describe clever methods of working with them.

---

From what I've gathered, that stigma didn't always exist. I've seen videos from many years ago when prominent FF14 content creators made videos on macros. A quick skim of those macros shows that they weren't well-made and would probably result in significant frame loss, the kind that modern macro developers would easily be able to avoid. And yet, despite the flaws in those macros, these videos show that there was a time when such macros were more widely used and accepted by players.

Of course, at some point that changed, presumably because players started doing experiments and learning about the flaws of these simple macros. SaltedXIV's side-by-side comparison video (the one I debunked in my original post) came out in 2020, but I don't know whether their video coincides with the initial discovery of these issues, or whether it was uploaded afterwards and was just particularly effective at communicating their data. But I'd guess it was around that time at the very latest that more players started to entirely give up on macros. They saw the data, and it convinced them to change their behavior.

Part of what gives me hope for the future is that even though they didn't know the whole story, they made the best decisions they could with the data they had at the time. We've got even more data now, and the main challenge is finding a way to deliver it to more players in a way they understand.

But old habits die hard, and fear is a powerful motivator.

Regardless, the game has 10 more years left in it, and that's a lot of time for the status quo to shift. It'll be interesting to see what happens.

Here are the videos of in-game macro minigames I mentioned.

最终幻想XIV 宏学五子棋 (Final Fantasy 14 Macrology 5-in-a-line)
https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1vt411Q7jN/

【最终幻想XIV】宏学劲舞团 (Final Fantasy 14 Macrology Audition)
https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1vz411e7Hh/

【最终幻想XIV】宏学贪吃蛇 (Final Fantasy 14 Macrology Snake Game)
https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1UB4y1P79k/

【最终幻想XIV】宏学密室 (Final Fantasy 14 Macrology Locked Room)
https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1ii4y1o7bi/

In the first video they play 5-in-a-line (a Tic-Tac-Toe like game) using hotbars as a game board. They say that mechanism is published on a BBS. Unfortunately the link is only for registered members, so some reverse engineering are required.

It is supposed to be implemented with the following macro for each row, each column, and shared / current job. In addition three macros are required for initialization by /hotbar copy. 9 × 9 × 2 + 3 = 165 macros are required.

/hotbar set item [item name] [row] [column]
/hotbar share 1 [on/off]
/hotbar share 2 [on/off]
/hotbar share 3 [on/off]
/hotbar share 4 [on/off]
/hotbar share 5 [on/off]
/hotbar share 6 [on/off]
/hotbar share 7 [on/off]
/hotbar share 8 [on/off]
/hotbar share 9 [on/off]
/hotbar share 10 [on/off]
/hotbar set item [item name] [row] [column]

Snake Game uses more tricky mechanism. It is supposed to be implemented with hotbar copy and hotbar set item. But I don't know how to make it within 200 macros and 15 lines limitation. I need further examination.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

Edit:

/macroicon "Glare"
/macroerror off
/ac "Glare"

---

A few suggestions I would make to this macro, if you really want to use it,

a) make the first line be '/mlock', which is shorthand for /macrolock. This will block restarting the macro, no matter how fast you mash, until the current instance of the macro has finished executing.

b) make as many lines of this macro be the action you want to be used as possible.

c) move everything but the /mlock and /macroerror off commands to the end, after the /ac commands.

I would still advise against macroing your gcds, as they do not get queued like pressing the gcd itself, same with your ogcds. However, there are niche use-cases where this can be useful. For instance, a macro of mine that I use a lot while playing DNC:

/mlock
/macroerror off
/ac "Closed Position" <6>
/ac "Closed Position" <6>
/ac "Closed Position" <6>
/ac "Closed Position" <6>
/ac "Closed Position" <6>
/ac "Closed Position" <6>
/ac "Closed Position" <6>
/ac "Closed Position" <6>
/ac "Closed Position" <6>
/ac "Closed Position" <6>
/ac "Closed Position" <6>
/ac "Closed Position" <6>
/ac "Closed Position" <6>

I have 2 more of these for <7> and <8>, respectively, and they allow me to swap my dance partner in a single gcd (albeit with a microclip due to macros not queueing up), most notably WITHOUT needing to untarget the boss at any point.

Another niche use case for macros, a macro to make a certain variation of the fire/ice towers mechanic in Dragonsong's Reprise (Ultimate) more consistent:

/mlock
/merror off
/automove on <wait.1>
/automove off
/echo
/echo
/echo
/echo
/echo
/echo
/echo
/echo
/echo
/echo
/echo

This macro allows you to move at just the right pace to bait the meteor drops so they don't detonate, for when you dont have enough room to walk without stopping.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

From what I've gathered, that stigma didn't always exist. I've seen videos from many years ago when prominent FF14 content creators made videos on macros. A quick skim of those macros shows that they weren't well-made and would probably result in significant frame loss, the kind that modern macro developers would easily be able to avoid. And yet, despite the flaws in those macros, these videos show that there was a time when such macros were more widely used and accepted by players.

---

A long time ago, circa 2015 or 2016, there were several threads on macros here. I've completely forgotten them, but according to my post history I've posted pseudo-queueing macros and hotbar changing macros. They were not my own invention, so such tips were already widely known in JP community. At that time there were more macro users and less aversion in English forum than today.

User Macros: New Options + Sharing Macros with others in game
Is it a DPS loss to use macros?
Useful Healing Macros
WHM Macros
[SCH] Macro and Targeting Issues
Bug in AST Rez skill?