Are there any plans to fix the 'Haurchefant' localization?

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Originally Posted by Telkira

I don't think it detracts from people's ability to take him seriously. He already does so much for the player at that point, so in my view, as a character, he has earned his right to be comedic.
I personally don't see what's wrong with it, since it's perfectly appropriate for the 'T' 13+ rating and no worse than anything else that seeks to appeal to this demographic. Jiraiya from Naruto is 'worse' in this regard.

And yes, I genuinely do think JP Haurchefant would be better because changing him also required them to change other aspects about his character, including interactions which drastically changed the mood of these scenes. I'd rather have him as a bombastic and humorous pervert than a what he is now, because it's very clear that in the JP version that's not all he is.
I personally found it creepy how he was re-written, it didn't feel right, it felt like he was trying to establish an emotional connection when the pieces for that simply were not there.

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We'll just have to agree to disagree. I know a lot of people (including a few JPN players) who didnt much care for JPN Haurchefant and actually would've been turned off from the character if they were trying to force some sort of romantic relationship with the WoL, which it was clearly doing. I still think the localization team had nothing to apologize for. Nobody cares except die hards who actually go out of their way to look up japanese translations.

In many cases with localizations I would agree that most of the time, the english script ruins the original depth of a character; one notable example is Kairi from Kingdom Hearts whom actually has more of a character than what was localized. But like I keep defending, ENG Haurchefant is one of the rare Ws where the character actually is better than the original version. He just seriously comes off as too pushy, creepy or annoyingly eccentric, and with many moments in both ARR and HW's story where he's there to be taken seriously, I cannot imagine many people would've connected with him if he was blatant about his affection towards you. Heck G'raha is getting dangerously close at times with his dialogue but I rather like my characters having room for interpretation rather than "HEY THIS GUY REEALLY WANTS TO GET IN YOUR PANTS, THIS IS HIS CHARACTER TRAIT".

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

We'll just have to agree to disagree. I know a lot of people (including a few JPN players) who didnt much care for JPN Haurchefant and actually would've been turned off from the character if they were trying to force some sort of romantic relationship with the WoL, which it was clearly doing. I still think the localization team had nothing to apologize for. Nobody cares except die hards who actually go out of their way to look up japanese translations.

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I disagree.
Lots of players do play the game with JP cutscene audio, which, for the most part, lines up with what's being said in the textbox, which a lot of these players do prefer the original JP voice acting and not the EN. Something I genuinely can commend them for is keeping most of the script properly translated, if not taking liberties where they find appropriate (though I would personally prefer to have the closest thing to a direct translation, without the flavortext).

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

In many cases with localizations I would agree that most of the time, the english script ruins the original depth of a character; one notable example is Kairi from Kingdom Hearts whom actually has more of a character than what was localized. But like I keep defending, ENG Haurchefant is one of the rare Ws where the character actually is better than the original version. He just seriously comes off as too pushy, creepy or annoyingly eccentric, and with many moments in both ARR and HW's story where he's there to be taken seriously, I cannot imagine many people would've connected with him if he was blatant about his affection towards you. Heck G'raha is getting dangerously close at times with his dialogue but I rather like my characters having room for interpretation rather than "HEY THIS GUY REEALLY WANTS TO GET IN YOUR PANTS, THIS IS HIS CHARACTER TRAIT".

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Again.. I don't think that's what solely defines the character. He's still the same character whose dialog and presence is conducive to the serious tone of the overall story, just is more outspoken and comedic and than the other one. I seriously don't understand why it really matters, it doesn't make him any less like-able, considering it IS a Japanese property. I think those aspects can very easily be overlooked or ignored. It doesn't make sense to be discomforted over a character in a video game, hence why I said what I said about SE making a mistake in pandering to Westerners.
They might as well remove Lalafell from the NA release and all the sexualization of them if their concerns are appeasement over entertainment. JP media is, and will always be inherently problematic, since the cultures weren't warped by Western notions of purity.

The best thing they did was keep Christian missionaries out of Japan, and this type of emotional incongruence and disparity is proof of that.

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Originally Posted by Telkira

My brother in christ, can any of you actually come up with some sort of criticism or rebuttal that isn't "no u" or an outright insult??

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Because translations shouldn't be 1:1. Japanese jokes don't land in English locales because their version of jokes are a lot of wordplay, something they can do with the way their language is structured around A I U E O that we don't have here. As such, localizations work to have jokes that their locale will understand and laugh at, which would make no sense in any of the other locales that they're translating and localizing for. I wouldn't expect to get a joke in FR or DE that's been translated into English because that's not my first language, nor would I expect an EN joke to land right in FR/DE/JP because EN is not the target language or locale.

Seeing as how the localization team works hand in hand with the writers to make sure that their versions match the vision of what the writers want, there's no reason to have a 1:1 translation. Translation, as you were talking about here IS LOCALIZATION. That's the literal definition of localization from one language to another: keeping the tone, the ideal and understanding of the scene so it flows naturally in the language it is in. FFXIV and it's localization isn't something like ADV's Ghost Stories or even the old Samurai Pizza Cats; while the Haurchefant localization was a misstep that they apologized for, many in this thread have expressed their happiness with it, while you've constantly [URL="https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/480960-Are-there-any-plans-to-fix-the-Haurchefant-localization?p=6230957&viewfull=1#post6230957"]assumed[url] things about the posters who have expressed just that. You double down and, while your insults are not on par with people calling you a weeb (which... I guess, some people wear that badge with pride lmao), yours are instead calling people woke or telling them their discomfort is something they can "get over" or just "deal with", and "stop being so soft" and "toughen up" - up to and including telling people "good you SHOULD be uncomfortable with this" which is terrible. There have been plenty of people who have come in with reasonable debates, no namecalling, simply stating their stance, as you did in your OP and all rebuttals against what people have said, and only when you refuse to see why they feel differently and insult them, they only do so back. Perhaps some looking inward for reflection will help in this.

I've studied Japanese for many, many years, I generally play games in Japanese when given the chance, and I do in fact watch a lot of anime subbed (though dub quality is pretty dang great compared to the early 90s now) - but no, I don't want JP Haurchefant. I know what he was intended to be, it has nothing to do with "Western puritanical views", it has to do with "I've been ogled like this irl and it's incredibly uncomfortable." YOU may not understand it and chalk it up to "ha ha funny guy" but to many who have had that happen irl to them? Not as funny. I'm not being "soft" or "woke" about it either before you try to come at me with that, but digging in your heels and refusing outright to see why people might not be cool with this has nothing to do with either of those things either. It may be another country's culture to laugh at this, but it's a lot different in a totally different locale. I don't find the trope as funny either, but to me it's more childish than endearing, but maybe I'm just old now and can't be arsed to find it endearing. I may have when I was in my teenage years and possibly my early 20s, but those years are 15+ years behind me now.

Your insistence that it's people getting "upset" over things that don't matter is not helping your case either, because they may not matter TO YOU but they obviously matter to those that see a problem. You won't get people warming up to your stance if you constantly insult them either, despite crying that people are insulting you, for instance saying that they're all puritanical Westerners who don't understand the "finer nuances" of Japanese culture, and that the people who weren't exactly excited about how the JP version should "seek therapy" if they felt excessively creeped out by him:

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Originally Posted by Telkira

I've seen people genuinely react with vigor at the way he was written in the JP version, like with utmost disgust like they were being assaulted.
To those people I suggest therapy.

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Or, as I already mentioned about "toughening up", I'll just quote the whole thing so I'm not accused of cherry-picking:

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Originally Posted by Telkira

I really don't see what there is to be so uncomfortable over. Yeah he's a 'creep' but it's a character in a video game and his original inception actually serves a valid purpose. His interactions are genuinely funny and the fact that people would rather see that revised because it would be inconvenient to 'toughen up' in favor of compromising the artistic and literary integrity of the product, thereby contributing to a culture of accommodating insecurity disguised as socio-cultural apologetics.

I genuinely think that the majority of players wouldn't feel so bothered by it, or they would overlook it along with all the other 'problematic' aspects of a Japanese product, and for those who are made uncomfortable by it, what's the harm? I think challenging their insecurities in the context of fiction is a good thing. It's how I learned to treat art as art and not as something that has to reflect real-life values. Fantasy is harmless.

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And since my reply kind of goes over this as well, with bold emphasis mine:

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Originally Posted by Telkira

Within the western anime community, there exists people with colonial mentalities who genuinely believe that such tropes, plots, characters, etc. constitute some degree of harm and base this harm on the discomfort they feel when exposed to it, but lack the self-awareness and introspection skills to recognize whether that discomfort constitutes 'harm'.

I don't see how being made to feel uncomfortable by Haurchefant's 'advances' should be taken any more seriously than someone disturbed by anything else in this game.

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Fantasy may be harmless, yes; I certainly don't walk out my door expecting to become a Skyrim NPC and die in a dragon attack, but when the game deals with a lot of real-world parallels and politics, and a lot of real-world philosophy, it's harder to divorce fantasy from reality. Having someone being borderline sexually harassing is uncomfortable for people. If you're truly still struggling to understand why, especially some female players would not want this in a place that they do try to get away from some real world instances, this video is plenty. I can deal with politics, I can deal with war, and I can deal with nihilism and existentialism in my games because while yes, it makes for a more interesting world, but sometimes, there has to be a line where it stops and borderline sexual harassment is it.


For the record, I was here for Heavensturn 2014 and while I found the "will you be my steed?!" line funny, it was funny on it's own in a contained place with no other instances of it. If it had been more, I would not have liked the character as much as I do, as it was enough to tell me "yes, Haurchefant wants to be helpful to us... and maybe he might wanna bone us, but he doesn't let it bleed out... too much. Not enough to be annoying or uncomfortable." and that was good enough for me.

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Originally Posted by Telkira

That type of argument isn't even rationally based, it's a Japanese game. You're consuming a Japanese game. If you seriously expect to have anything but that, then you're better off going elsewhere.
You shouldn't watch anime and get mad when they're all dining on noodles and naruto rolls and not hamburgers and jelly doughnuts, you shouldn't even expect that.

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Just gonna say, 4kids hasn't been around for 7 years now, and no anime licensing company actually does this anymore. I would expect Japanese culture if the game were based in Japan itself, not a fantasy world that isn't anything like Japan itself. The closest we get is Doma and the surrounding areas, and even then it's a collision of Asian cultures, not just Japanese - the Azim Steppe with the Xaela is a pretty clear Mongolia vibe, Yanxia is Chinese, Doma and Kugane is Japan. I would expect the heaviest Japanese tropes to be around in these areas, but they still aren't. In a completely different fantasy world, where the creating studio is from is a moot point when the only thing that may come from some silly dialogue is "Pan? You didn't mean bread but a frying pan?" or some basic tropes in their media that don't exist elsewhere, and they are localized differently for their target audiences to understand and resonate with more.

The devs will not likely go back and change anything, the localization is done and dusted and has been for nearly a decade. The most you'll get is the apology from Mr. Crow and knowledge that any other changes they make to the localization are okay'd by the writers and Yoshida himself now, because despite it all, they're a business. They're here to make money from the largest amount of people, and that means making more people happy with how they run things. There will always be some grumblings about how some lines change a meaning somewhere in the MSQ (and some I do agree with because they aren't too obvious and make it a little more difficult to understand than it needs to be, especially in overly technical descriptions on how the world of Hydaelyn works, but I'm otherwise happy with the localization) but despite your claim that the outrage was massive, it really wasn't that massive. It isn't a silent majority, nor do you know how every single player out of the entirety of the NA playerbase feels about the localization - the forums aren't really a place to gauge it either. At most, it is a small subset of players.

You are entitled to your opinion and to believe it (:)) but telling others their opinion isn't right or worth it because you think they're too wrapped up in a Westerner's mindset to understand Japanese culture, and to dig your heels in and deny everything that people say isn't it either.

Regardless, I've spent enough time reliving my teenage anime days in this thread since when I was a teen I probably would have been mad, but I grew out of that. Perhaps it's time for you to do some growing as well, to understand that not everyone's response to this is out of some need to inject "western puritanical bullcrap" into a video game, but that people would be legitimately uncomfortable for many reasons to a change like this.

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Originally Posted by Telkira

The canon is the JP presentation, as explicitly stated in the apology post by the head of the LOC team at the time.

The problem with Western localization is that Westerners begin to feel entitled to revisionism of this type, so they begin to aggressively impose their views and values which are inadvertently (if not explicitly) at odds with the true vision, which is what we are entitled to.

I want Haurchefant to be corrected, I want the dialog text that plays during his cutscenes to be reflective of the Japanese being spoken, in addition to the rest of his dialog to be reflective of his actual speech and characterization.

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Potentially hot take, it doesn't matter what the "canon" is in this particular case.

It's a bit of lore is primarily regarding something that that is already highly headcanon'd, i.e. the Warrior of Light, their personality, and their relationship to the Scions.

Also the guy is dead, and while the story team are clearly happy to bring his deadness up repeatedly, the specifics of your relationship are not discussed. Only that you were close or very affected by their death. It's otherwise left up to the player.

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Originally Posted by rainichan

Seeing as how the localization team works hand in hand with the writers to make sure that their versions match the vision of what the writers want, there's no reason to have a 1:1 translation. Translation, as you were talking about here IS LOCALIZATION. That's the literal definition of localization from one language to another: keeping the tone, the ideal and understanding of the scene so it flows naturally in the language it is in.

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I'm sorry, but this is wrong. All localization implies is that the material was adapted in some way to make it marketable to a foreign market. What 4kids did was localization, textbook localization, both because many topics or concept seen as 'too mature' for children in the US were perfectly okay by Japanese standards, or because they felt that removals would make it feel more 'western', like replacing Japanese food items with non-JP food items, rewriting whole dialog exhanges to feel familiar, etc.
What Crunchyroll does when it rewrites whole plots and character dialog to appease easy-to-offend Twitter and Reddit users is 'Localization'. Swapping out snot bubbles for the letter 'Z' is localization. Changing or modifying the tone or manner in which a character speaks for the sake of cultural flavor is localization. Nowhere in the term 'localization' (used within this context) is any obligation to retain any form of artistic or literary integrity, quite exclusively the opposite, actually.

Translating to another language is not impossible like you're making things out to be, especially with media, and as stated before, this is compatible with the presence of phrases or words that do not translate well. The point is translating their words and ensuring that the contents of their expression is accurately conveyed. Some things literally will not translate well, even after they've been touched with localization due to inherent qualities of the product that can't be filtered out, things like the art style, the pacing at which the story is set, how characters react to things, etc. I'd rather see something as close to the original content and maybe actually learn something, that's perhaps the best defense you could offer direct translations of content. Learning about the content, its place in its respective culture, and how it relates to improving critical thought. It makes you question things about the medium and once you understand it and learn about how it fits in with them, you begin to realize that there's no reason why it wouldn't fit in that way with us, and that's okay.

I think Localization generally contributes to a growing sense of cultural illiteracy, whereby if something doesn't fit snuggly within what a society is presumptively willing to tolerate, it generally won't. I think we would be better off if these things weren't filtered out via localization, and were just translated.

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Originally Posted by rainichan

If you're truly still struggling to understand why, especially some female players would not want this in a place that they do try to get away from some real world instances, this video is plenty. I can deal with politics, I can deal with war, and I can deal with nihilism and existentialism in my games because while yes, it makes for a more interesting world, but sometimes, there has to be a line where it stops and borderline sexual harassment is it.

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I don't think equating a form of harassment to a character in a video game is at all an appropriate comparison... I can understand the discomfort people feel about this, but I guarantee you that it's nowhere close to this. I don't doubt that cases exist, but changing the story to accommodate for them is something that.
And even then, taking Haurchefant's interactions and calling it 'harassment' is something I can't understand...
I don't think such standards need to be applied to fictional characters in such a way, with the same reverence we would apply to them in real-life. I'm perfectly capable of taking the threat of being murdered or assaulted seriously even after all of the media which depicts, if not glorifies, such things, same with media which or glorifies sexual things. Japanese users don't seem to take issue with it either, even rebelling at the thought of it having an effect on behavior. Why can't Westerners see it the same way? I don't think it needs to be regarded the same way as it does in real-life, context matters and the same couldn't be said about this.

My overall take is, if it were genuinely better for it to not exist, then it should be that way for the game as a whole, not only in specific regions. A book shouldn't have chapters removed just so it can be published in a different country. A game shouldn't have content be cut or revised for the same reason either.

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Originally Posted by Telkira

I disagree.
Lots of players do play the game with JP cutscene audio, which, for the most part, lines up with what's being said in the textbox, which a lot of these players do prefer the original JP voice acting and not the EN. Something I genuinely can commend them for is keeping most of the script properly translated, if not taking liberties where they find appropriate (though I would personally prefer to have the closest thing to a direct translation, without the flavortext).



Again.. I don't think that's what solely defines the character. He's still the same character whose dialog and presence is conducive to the serious tone of the overall story, just is more outspoken and comedic and than the other one. I seriously don't understand why it really matters, it doesn't make him any less like-able, considering it IS a Japanese property. I think those aspects can very easily be overlooked or ignored. It doesn't make sense to be discomforted over a character in a video game, hence why I said what I said about SE making a mistake in pandering to Westerners.
They might as well remove Lalafell from the NA release and all the sexualization of them if their concerns are appeasement over entertainment. JP media is, and will always be inherently problematic, since the cultures weren't warped by Western notions of purity.

The best thing they did was keep Christian missionaries out of Japan, and this type of emotional incongruence and disparity is proof of that.

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Dont understand where you somehow get my arguments as being "christian" if that is your take away but what you're defending is bad writing, for the sake of keeping a script "pure". Bottom line is JPN Haurchefaunt was poorly written or at the very least a character that feels too exaggerated for what his character ultimately was supposed to be; someone who personally cherishes you for who you are. Not somebody who speaks and acts like they only care about having an intimate sexual relationship with you.

And if at the very least we should keep that angle, there's much better ways to write somebody who's attracted to your character without being an outdated stereotype.

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Originally Posted by rainichan

I'm not being "soft" or "woke" about it either before you try to come at me with that

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And for the record... no lol
Just no.

I don't need to insult people to prove my point, at least when it's not warranted (i.e. being insulted first).

I think your overall point about being sensitive over it feeling like harassment is probably the most valid response, but still falls short of the broader content being mere fiction, coupled with the intentions of the creators being made clear of being a joke, and I stand by my previous statements about people 'growing a spine'. I think going out of their way to accommodate that sensitivity and discomfort is the wrong approach to take if it's the 'true vision' of the product, because in later years or in other products, they're going to go with the characterization of the JP script because that's the true version. Even the LINE Messenger icons of Haurchefant are representative of his Japanese characterization.
https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/fi...20211001034239

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Originally Posted by rainichan

Just gonna say, 4kids hasn't been around for 7 years now, and no anime licensing company actually does this anymore. I would expect Japanese culture if the game were based in Japan itself, not a fantasy world that isn't anything like Japan itself.

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I named off 4Kids because they're a textbook case of localization that a lot of people seem to forget about, and yes, they have. We literally watched entire anime and manga be butchered by Crunchyroll. I remember Dragon Maid, I literally cancelled my CR sub because of all of their craziness.

As for the game 'being Japanese', it's about the title (if not franchise) as a whole being a product of Japanese writers and artists, shaped by the culture which they existed in, their liberal use of a variety of Western fantasy and mythological characters, tropes, etc. The game itself has made its Japanese character evident even beyond that, like the celebrating of Japanese holidays, and partnering with Japanese properties to do cross-over events with, etc.

With Western references and jokes, I..genuinely don't like it. I begrudgingly tolerate it because it's a joke in the JP version as well, and I assume that that's fine, though I'd prefer to just see the JP version. I personally just think the 'Channel Awesome' approach of constantly inserting jokes or references to things that exist in the broader culture is a lame approach, because you can't always guarantee that it'll amuse more than it annoys, but it also kills opportunity for something actually intriguing or conducive to immersed engagement, which it probably won't be because most references aren't written with that dual-purpose in mind for the sake of those who don't get it or pick up on that it's a reference.
That point stands even with respect to JP-centric jokes or references, but I'd still like to see those translated over.

Just fyi, if you write up a big post, copy most of it and then edit, you can bypass the 3k word limit. :)

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Originally Posted by Telkira

I'm sorry, but this is wrong. ...

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Japanese localization from EN to JP is the exact same process: take the source, make it marketable to the JP market. Cultural sensitivity exists in all markets, not just the EN market. Most localizations also employ transliterations, which is "make something we can't translate over well enough into something as close as possible to stay accurate." As I said, some of what they do in the EN version I would like them to not do, in overly technical explanations for something that is easier to understand in other languages because they feel the need to stay with ye olde English with some things or overuse of words ("aplomb" had my particular ire for all of 6.0, please use a different word, there are so many to get your point across) but if I'm getting the same experience overall, a slight misstep is not going to make me be miles off from where the end destination is.

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Originally Posted by Telkira

I don't think equating a form of harassment to a character in a video game is at all an appropriate comparison... I can understand the discomfort people feel about this, but I guarantee you that it's nowhere close to this. I don't doubt that cases exist, but changing the story to accommodate for them is something that.
And even then, taking Haurchefant's interactions and calling it 'harassment' is something I can't understand...
I don't think such standards need to be applied to fictional characters in such a way, with the same reverence we would apply to them in real-life. I'm perfectly capable of taking the threat of being murdered or assaulted seriously even after all of the media which depicts, if not glorifies, such things, same with media which or glorifies sexual things. Japanese users don't seem to take issue with it either, even rebelling at the thought of it having an effect on behavior. Why can't Westerners see it the same way? I don't think it needs to be regarded the same way as it does in real-life, context matters and the same couldn't be said about this.

My overall take is, if it were genuinely better for it to not exist, then it should be that way for the game as a whole, not only in specific regions. A book shouldn't have chapters removed just so it can be published in a different country. A game shouldn't have content be cut or revised for the same reason either.

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I'm just going to quote all of this because it's a lot, and you're still not quite grasping why people are finding it a problem, and are instead brushing it off.

Here is mention of chikan, or sexual harassment on trains from the beginning of this year, something even more recent from earlier this month about chikan, and another on how often it happens - can't find a publish date, which is frustrating, but if a news article from this month is mentioning a push to end it or make people feel comfortable on reporting it, it's still a valid resource at this point, which is incredibly sad. Japan's take of "if we don't see it, it's not happening' isn't really a great take to defend, either, just saying, especially when more and more of the younger generations are going "this isn't great". They even recently OK'd a bill to pass in which makes the listed even more illegal than before for things like upskirting or whatnot... things that were common tropes in anime for the "loveable pervert" trope, and for good measure, the sharp rise of it as reported earlier in the year. "That's a small number" but as the other articles say, a lot of people don't report it - sounds quite familiar, as it's the same in the US. Not being taken seriously, nothing being done about it, or the least amount of things done about it is what keeps people (both men and women) from reporting a rape or other sexual assault. For people who have had this happen to them, someone being that forward can bring back traumatic memories, whether you believe it or not, because it can be how it happened to them, or similar enough that it makes them uncomfortable.

Cultures are always going to be different, yes, and that's fine. I understand JP culture because I've been following it and immersed in it since before I was a teenager. I also see where we differ on things, and just because one side grew up going "hm, this is okay to do" (and now it's not being as okay, as evidenced as above) doesn't mean the other side will have to embrace it and like it, especially as times change and therefore change what is happening in the world. It's changing in Japan now too, 10 years ago is a wildly different time than now, and I wouldn't be surprised if they had done this now, the other languages would have been closer to the NA version instead.

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Originally Posted by Telkira

And for the record... no lol
Just no.

I don't need to insult people to prove my point, at least when it's not warranted (i.e. being insulted first).

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I pointed out multiple times where there was no provocation involved already where you did in my previous post, which in turn made people do the same back:

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Your insistence that it's people getting "upset" over things that don't matter is not helping your case either, because they may not matter TO YOU but they obviously matter to those that see a problem. You won't get people warming up to your stance if you constantly insult them either, despite crying that people are insulting you, for instance saying that they're all puritanical Westerners who don't understand the "finer nuances" of Japanese culture, and that the people who weren't exactly excited about how the JP version should "seek therapy" if they felt excessively creeped out by him:

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And for your own words:

[quote]I've seen people genuinely react with vigor at the way he was written in the JP version, like with utmost disgust like they were being assaulted.

To those people I suggest therapy.[quote]

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I really don't see what there is to be so uncomfortable over. Yeah he's a 'creep' but it's a character in a video game and his original inception actually serves a valid purpose. His interactions are genuinely funny and the fact that people would rather see that revised because it would be inconvenient to 'toughen up' in favor of compromising the artistic and literary integrity of the product, thereby contributing to a culture of accommodating insecurity disguised as socio-cultural apologetics.

I genuinely think that the majority of players wouldn't feel so bothered by it, or they would overlook it along with all the other 'problematic' aspects of a Japanese product, and for those who are made uncomfortable by it, what's the harm? I think challenging their insecurities in the context of fiction is a good thing. It's how I learned to treat art as art and not as something that has to reflect real-life values. Fantasy is harmless.

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Within the western anime community, there exists people with colonial mentalities who genuinely believe that such tropes, plots, characters, etc. constitute some degree of harm and base this harm on the discomfort they feel when exposed to it, but lack the self-awareness and introspection skills to recognize whether that discomfort constitutes 'harm'.

I don't see how being made to feel uncomfortable by Haurchefant's 'advances' should be taken any more seriously than someone disturbed by anything else in this game.

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It might not be on par with "haha weeb" or namecalling, but that's still fairly insulting to those who did come back with well thought out responses to you but disagreed. I said what I said because with others that have said similarly, they've been called "soft" or "woke" when they're likely talking from experience.

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I think your overall point about being sensitive over it feeling like harassment is probably the most valid response, but still falls short of the broader content being mere fiction, coupled with the intentions of the creators being made clear of being a joke, and I stand by my previous statements about people 'growing a spine'. I think going out of their way to accommodate that sensitivity and discomfort is the wrong approach to take if it's the 'true vision' of the product, because in later years or in other products, they're going to go with the characterization of the JP script because that's the true version. Even the LINE Messenger icons of Haurchefant are representative of his Japanese characterization.
https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/fi...20211001034239

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Just because it is fiction does not mean people can or will divorce it from real life easily, especially when they've had something similar or identical happen to them. I'm not sure how else I can really say that without going full 2004 sparkletext. Some things are easy, some things are not. When recent statistics are saying 1 in 6 women have experienced attempted or a completed sexual assault... that's a lot of women. Imagine if all of them who have experienced some degree of it came forward, that number would likely be a lot smaller. 1 in 6 is still incredibly small of a number. That would also apply to the users of this forum, who should not have to come right out and say "yeah I was raped and JP Haurchefant reminds me of that and that's why I'm uncomfortable," just saying "no it would make me uncomfortable" should be more than enough.

We also don't get those LINE stickers here, because who in the US uses LINE? It's mainly Asia who uses it. Yes, we get the rips from people who use it in the US or by people who use it to connect to their family members in Asia, but they're a drop in the bucket compared to Asia as a whole who use it as their main messaging app.

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I named off 4Kids because they're a textbook case of localization that a lot of people seem to forget about, and yes, they have. We literally watched entire anime and manga be butchered by Crunchyroll. I remember Dragon Maid, I literally cancelled my CR sub because of all of their craziness.

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The only censorship and changes I'm finding in any search is for the Chinese version of Miss Kobayashi's Dragon Maid. I'm not seeing any instance of what you're talking about happening in the Crunchyroll version of the anime, and seeing that we have an uncensored sub on Crunchy. It's wholly possible I missed something in going back some to see what may have been changed, but if you have sources beyond "just trust me bro" that'd be great.

As for a lot of 4kids-ification of anime in general, I'm old enough to remember when anime was seen as demonic or adult-only. ...then again I remember when it was "it's for kids lol" so the debate has always been there. Having people see it as some horrible demonic thing in the 90s was certainly something, same with the satanic scare of Dungeons and Dragons. It's less so now, and so anime dubs even for kids have changed to be closer to their counterparts, but yes, I was there, Gandalf, I was there 3000 years ago when Haruka and Michiru were cousins in the Sailor Moon S dub. Times have changed and they're very obviously not in the newer dub from Viz, but before it would not have been viable for them to air it without heavy censorship. It sucks, but that's how it goes.

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As for the game 'being Japanese', it's about the title (if not franchise) as a whole being a product of Japanese writers and artists, shaped by the culture which they existed in, their liberal use of a variety of Western fantasy and mythological characters, tropes, etc. The game itself has made its Japanese character evident even beyond that, like the celebrating of Japanese holidays, and partnering with Japanese properties to do cross-over events with, etc.

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Banri Oda, the main world and lore builder for the series, looks outside his Japanese roots to create correct environments for every area in FFXIV, he's stated repeatedly on record that he loves learning about other cultures and reading different kinds of books that give him inspiration for everything he's created for FFXIV. The only true Japanese holiday that's celebrated in XIV is the way New Year is celebrated as more of a Lunar New Year, and Little Ladies Day which is just Children's Day. Halloween, Christmas, Valentines are pretty obvious Western holidays that are popular in Japan. Summer is debatable as there are many holidays in a lot of cultures that happen during what we'd see as the Summer months. The only collabs that XIV has done are within their own franchises - FFXI, Dragon Quest, FFXIII, and FFXV. All of them take place in fantasy worlds that are not confined to Japan, and the only real argument that you can get to in that is "FFXI's Summer event is distinctly Japan", but the rest really aren't, and XIV is pretty similar to their holiday quests.

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With Western references and jokes, I..genuinely don't like it. I begrudgingly tolerate it because it's a joke in the JP version as well, and I assume that that's fine, though I'd prefer to just see the JP version. I personally just think the 'Channel Awesome' approach of constantly inserting jokes or references to things that exist in the broader culture is a lame approach, because you can't always guarantee that it'll amuse more than it annoys, but it also kills opportunity for something actually intriguing or conducive to immersed engagement, which it probably won't be because most references aren't written with that dual-purpose in mind for the sake of those who don't get it or pick up on that it's a reference.
That point stands even with respect to JP-centric jokes or references, but I'd still like to see those translated over.

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And that's fine! You have a preference, and I won't say you're wrong for having it. I play a lot of games in Japanese because I like their voices most of the time more than the dub version, but dubs have come a long way so I don't mind them as much anymore; it's the same with anime. Having silly pop culture references don't really bother me, and to me just feels like the localization team are appealing to my crappost tendencies, which I personally enjoy, but I know it's not for everyone - really, it just feels like a bunch of Pop Team Epic to me anyway. However having a lot of things not be enjoyable for a broader audience by having jokes we don't get doesn't really make people want to learn or understand, it just makes them not want to play a game that does that and doesn't think that there are other cultures outside of their own. Eventually the pop culture references will fall out of favour, as a lot of things do, and they'll change their approach since that's an important part of localization and transliteration is understanding the base of people you're trying to cater to. We do still get a huge amount of visual puns, because that's something that is enjoyed pretty globally, but unfortunately the word pun approach would not work, and likely turn more people off to things than draw in.

The balance line of "appealing to a larger audience" or "appealing to a smaller audience" will always go into the "larger" for more money made.

I feel that as a suggestion, it's dead on arrival.

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Originally Posted by rainichan

Japanese localization from EN to JP is the exact same process: take the source, make it marketable to the JP market. Cultural sensitivity exists in all markets, not just the EN market.

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It's...actually not always that, either.
A lot of productions are just direct translations with the necessary liberties taken to ensure that anything may be lost in translation remains conveyed. I'm less likely to find an American content with portions of its story edited because they might offend a JP audience (not counting overt censorship).

I've personally seen the process in my line of work, having run Localization QA stuff in games, and it varies.

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Originally Posted by rainichan

Most localizations also employ transliterations, which is "make something we can't translate over well enough into something as close as possible to stay accurate." As I said, some of what they do in the EN version I would like them to not do, in overly technical explanations for something that is easier to understand in other languages because they feel the need to stay with ye olde English with some things or overuse of words ("aplomb" had my particular ire for all of 6.0, please use a different word, there are so many to get your point across) but if I'm getting the same experience overall, a slight misstep is not going to make me be miles off from where the end destination is.

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I think you're overestimating this, and it's still not necessarily localization.
Such things are done seldomly and on an as-needed basis, but most translations never need to resort to this.

I'd prefer to have the game presented in such a way that was more 'direct' in its translation from Japanese, like a second language option so that way all the dialog was directly in-line with cutscenes, text and characterization was more 'direct', etc. I see no reason why it wouldn't be feasible, since it wouldn't be much to just go in. It wouldn't even be much to test, either.

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Originally Posted by rainichan

I'm just going to quote all of this because it's a lot, and you're still not quite grasping why people are finding it a problem, and are instead brushing it off.

Here is mention of chikan, or sexual harassment on trains from the beginning of this year, something even more recent from earlier this month about chikan, and another on how often it happens - can't find a publish date, which is frustrating, but if a news article from this month is mentioning a push to end it or make people feel comfortable on reporting it, it's still a valid resource at this point, which is incredibly sad. Japan's take of "if we don't see it, it's not happening' isn't really a great take to defend, either, just saying, especially when more and more of the younger generations are going "this isn't great". They even recently OK'd a bill to pass in which makes the listed even more illegal than before for things like upskirting or whatnot... things that were common tropes in anime for the "loveable pervert" trope, and for good measure, the sharp rise of it as reported earlier in the year. "That's a small number" but as the other articles say, a lot of people don't report it - sounds quite familiar, as it's the same in the US. Not being taken seriously, nothing being done about it, or the least amount of things done about it is what keeps people (both men and women) from reporting a rape or other sexual assault. For people who have had this happen to them, someone being that forward can bring back traumatic memories, whether you believe it or not, because it can be how it happened to them, or similar enough that it makes them uncomfortable.

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What does any of that have to do with depictions of fiction for the sake of comedy? Murder, assault, etc. are also just as illegal yet are shown in media all the same. You're seriously trying to draw parallels between real-life and fantasy/fictional depictions in fallacious and unworkable ways, a common talking point employed by proponents of censorship/suppression of 'problematic' elements in fiction. If that type of critique comes off as critiquing 'woke' approaches, it's not. I've never even commentated on 'wokeness' in JP-EN translations of things, but it's a genuine problem when anyone tries to inject politics into the adaptation of foreign media. Such things are NOT faithful to the original product and such revisions should be and are rightfully scorned at.

In any cas iet feels to me like you're responding to an argument that I never made by invoking media effects on Japanese culture and humor. These types of tropes and depictions in media are not to blame for incidents of assault or violations of privacy - people know the difference between right and wrong and how to appropriately contexualize these things from one another. It also feels like you're painting Japanese culture as largely insensitive, when in reality these types of social issues you're bringing are symptomatic of a larger set of problems far beyond the scope of this discussion.

As for cultural differences and media effects, I think there's a very clear difference between a fictional comedy trope seen in media vs. a real-life example of a sexual predator or incidents of real-world sexual assault. I don't think most people in Japan would take issue with this, and more and more people have begun to speak out and make corrections where they matter. One is a harmless joke in a video game and is received that way by their larger public, while the other is a real-life crime. That's the crux of my "me not getting why people are upset" statements, because once you learn to differentiate between the two, things genuinely are much better.

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Originally Posted by rainichan

Just because it is fiction does not mean people can or will divorce it from real life easily, especially when they've had something similar or identical happen to them. I'm not sure how else I can really say that without going full 2004 sparkletext. Some things are easy, some things are not. When recent statistics are saying 1 in 6 women have experienced attempted or a completed sexual assault... that's a lot of women. Imagine if all of them who have experienced some degree of it came forward, that number would likely be a lot smaller. 1 in 6 is still incredibly small of a number. That would also apply to the users of this forum, who should not have to come right out and say "yeah I was raped and JP Haurchefant reminds me of that and that's why I'm uncomfortable," just saying "no it would make me uncomfortable" should be more than enough.

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That doesn't necessarily mean that the divorce from reality and fiction is less pervasive, as you think it does. I know people who were also victimized by this and they're neutral to it, as are the broader Japanese public as previously stated, otherwise these tropes wouldn't be as entertaining. I've seen what Japanese reviewers say about things, and many of them still seem to be as critical as, if not equally, as the West are when voicing their opinions on things they don't like, and companies tend to respond to feedback all the same.

As stated before, people can and do engage with such material irrespective of what happened to them in real-life. You keep overstating the discomfort associated with Haurchefant's JP characterization, when it's very clear to anyone who'd seen it that it's really minimal, or a non-issue to veteran consumers of Japanese content. I genuinely don't see why it should matter anyway since it's a joke. People shouldn't have their insecurities pandered to and sated because that only tells them that they're right for being offended, when such things shouldn't matter at all.

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Originally Posted by rainichan

We also don't get those LINE stickers here, because who in the US uses LINE? It's mainly Asia who uses it. Yes, we get the rips from people who use it in the US or by people who use it to connect to their family members in Asia, but they're a drop in the bucket compared to Asia as a whole who use it as their main messaging app.

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I use LINE sometimes... and it was to illustrate how the character is depicted in external media. If they were to license depictions of the character for external use (such as merchandising or spin-off media) it's highly unlikely that they'd localize even that just to keep it consistent with the inconsistent characterization situation (further illustrating why it was a mistake).

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Originally Posted by rainichan

The only censorship and changes I'm finding in any search is for the Chinese version of Miss Kobayashi's Dragon Maid. I'm not seeing any instance of what you're talking about happening in the Crunchyroll version of the anime, and seeing that we have an uncensored sub on Crunchy. It's wholly possible I missed something in going back some to see what may have been changed, but if you have sources beyond "just trust me bro" that'd be great.

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I wasn't talking about that.
It was the debacle with Funimation (who is now merged with Crunchyroll), my mistake. They changed whole parts of a character's dialog to make certain depictions seem political when, in the original script, they weren't. The Dragon Maid fiasco was a mini-culture war, in a way.

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Originally Posted by rainichan

Banri Oda, the main world and lore builder for the series, looks outside his Japanese roots to create correct environments for every area in FFXIV, he's stated repeatedly on record that he loves learning about other cultures and reading different kinds of books that give him inspiration for everything he's created for FFXIV. The only true Japanese holiday that's celebrated in XIV is the way New Year is celebrated as more of a Lunar New Year, and Little Ladies Day which is just Children's Day. Halloween, Christmas, Valentines are pretty obvious Western holidays that are popular in Japan. Summer is debatable as there are many holidays in a lot of cultures that happen during what we'd see as the Summer months. The only collabs that XIV has done are within their own franchises - FFXI, Dragon Quest, FFXIII, and FFXV. All of them take place in fantasy worlds that are not confined to Japan, and the only real argument that you can get to in that is "FFXI's Summer event is distinctly Japan", but the rest really aren't, and XIV is pretty similar to their holiday quests.

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I mean.. that's fine, lots of artists do that, but it's still ultimately a Japanese product. The environment artists behind Fallout New Vegas also traveled around the real-life Mojave desert on a motorbike, taking pictures and recording ambient audio, in addition to researching old Las Vegas history and lore, but it doesn't change the fact that it's still a modern-American's take on Americana.
Lunar New Year isn't the only one, in fact I'd hardly consider it Japanese, it's far too generalized. But SE also celebrates Tanabata in FFXIV, also known as the 'Star Festival', which is a summertime holiday that originates from a festivity in Chinese mythology where the convergence of two gods is represented by stars and is commemorated with wishes.

They've also done collabs with NiER Automata (literally, who hasn't) and Yo-Kai Watch. There are probably a few others, but they're JP properties nonetheless.

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Originally Posted by rainichan

It might not be on par with "haha weeb" or namecalling, but that's still fairly insulting to those who did come back with well thought out responses to you but disagreed. I said what I said because with others that have said similarly, they've been called "soft" or "woke" when they're likely talking from experience.

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Well, literally the only points that aren't baseless insults and assumptions about my character is "it's offensive to us!" and "we prefer the changes!" which aren't really valid responses. It's fine to have preferences, but you should have the intellectual discipline to concede that the changes should have never happened. It requires a respect for, and understanding of artistic and literary integrity, which the localization approach towards the adaptation of foreign media is egregiously and disgustingly prone to. We shouldn't want any media, let alone foreign media, to only exist to regurgitate and not discomfort. These are not tranquilizers, they're video games and forms of art.

SE's approach is 100% a business one, one that I take serious issue with, despite understanding.

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Originally Posted by Telkira

Well, literally the only points that aren't baseless insults and assumptions about my character is "it's offensive to us!" and "we prefer the changes!" which aren't really valid responses. It's fine to have preferences, but you should have the intellectual discipline to concede that the changes should have never happened. It requires a respect for, and understanding of artistic and literary integrity, which the localization approach towards the adaptation of foreign media is egregiously and disgustingly prone to. We shouldn't want any media, let alone foreign media, to only exist to regurgitate and not discomfort. These are not tranquilizers, they're video games and forms of art.

SE's approach is 100% a business one, one that I take serious issue with, despite understanding.

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So like...you know how in the original JPN script of this game they retain the traditional -ara, -aga, and -aja spells compared to how we went back to the boring numerical Fire I, Fire II, Fire III and so on and so forth?

Yet the only thing you bring up about your script purism is...horny Haurchefaunt. Just goes to show what you really care about

I'm not afraid to admit I have no idea what anyone is talking about here. It's been a while since I did that part of the story and all I remember is that Haurchefant took myself and Alphinaud in while we were on the run, gave us a place to stay, and died protecting me. The rest is fuzzy and I'm honestly not sure what the issue is. Can someone please, calmly, and efficiently explain why there is an issue, and what that issue is?

Edit: I've read through the posts and I'm more confused than I was. I don't remember any creepiness or sexual stuff at all and I'm super lost now.

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Originally Posted by Ghutts

I'm not afraid to admit I have no idea what anyone is talking about here. It's been a while since I did that part of the story and all I remember is that Haurchefant took myself and Alphinaud in while we were on the run, gave us a place to stay, and died protecting me. The rest is fuzzy and I'm honestly not sure what the issue is. Can someone please, calmly, and efficiently explain why there is an issue, and what that issue is?

Edit: I've read through the posts and I'm more confused than I was. I don't remember any creepiness or sexual stuff at all and I'm super lost now.

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TL; DR in the Japanese version of the game Hauchefaunt is much more overtly sexually interested in you. In the English translation, they changed his dialogue to essentially cut out the sexual tones cause they didn't think it would be received as well for Western audiences.

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Originally Posted by Ghutts

I'm not afraid to admit I have no idea what anyone is talking about here. It's been a while since I did that part of the story and all I remember is that Haurchefant took myself and Alphinaud in while we were on the run, gave us a place to stay, and died protecting me. The rest is fuzzy and I'm honestly not sure what the issue is. Can someone please, calmly, and efficiently explain why there is an issue, and what that issue is?

Edit: I've read through the posts and I'm more confused than I was. I don't remember any creepiness or sexual stuff at all and I'm super lost now.

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Okay so, it works like this, in the original Japanese script, Haurchenfant's writing has him extremely sexually forward towards the WoL, this is meant as a joke, but it was something the English localizers figured would rub the wrong way for Western audiences, and toned him down substantially, so this was never present in the English version, OP is clamoring for them to go back and change Haurch's dialogue to match the Japanese script, and is being met with resistance from people who, rightfully in my eyes, believe the Japanese script was too much and that the change was good, in turn, OP is trying to argue they wouldn't have minded the original script, ignoring their claims that they would've very much minded it.

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Originally Posted by Iyrnthota

TL; DR in the Japanese version of the game Hauchefaunt is much more overtly sexually interested in you. In the English translation, they changed his dialogue to essentially cut out the sexual tones cause they didn't think it would be received as well for Western audiences.

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Originally Posted by VeyaAkemi

Okay so, it works like this, in the original Japanese script, Haurchenfant's writing has him extremely sexually forward towards the WoL, this is meant as a joke, but it was something the English localizers figured would rub the wrong way for Western audiences, and toned him down substantially, so this was never present in the English version, OP is clamoring for them to go back and change Haurch's dialogue to match the Japanese script, and is being met with resistance from people who, rightfully in my eyes, believe the Japanese script was too much and that the change was good, in turn, OP is trying to argue they wouldn't have minded the original script, ignoring their claims that they would've very much minded it.

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Ahhhhh, ok. I appreciate the responses. Thanks Y'all. I don't really have an opinion on this I guess. But I was curious and now I know. o7

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Originally Posted by Ghutts

I'm not afraid to admit I have no idea what anyone is talking about here. It's been a while since I did that part of the story and all I remember is that Haurchefant took myself and Alphinaud in while we were on the run, gave us a place to stay, and died protecting me. The rest is fuzzy and I'm honestly not sure what the issue is. Can someone please, calmly, and efficiently explain why there is an issue, and what that issue is?

Edit: I've read through the posts and I'm more confused than I was. I don't remember any creepiness or sexual stuff at all and I'm super lost now.

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It seems the characterization of the japanese Haurchefant is more that of the friend that tries to flirt with the WoL at any chance, contrary to the Western characterization that is that of the big brother that helps and cares for the WoL.
For the best or for the worst the localization team did this change to appeal more to western audiences, and just thinking on change it back by now is just silliness.

I've said it before on this forum, but I've always wondered how impactful Haurchefant's death would've been on Western audiences if he remained overtly sexual.

I wish I could ask someone who experienced the story with his original characterization.

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Originally Posted by ronibosch

I've sad it before on this forum, but I've always wondered how impactful Haurchefant's death would've been on Western audiences if he remained overtly sexual.

I wish I could ask someone who experienced the story with his original characterization.

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If he had been a tropy anime character that made sex jokes constantly? None for me, it would be a complete 180. I love him now, but it would go to a 'oh, that creepy guy is dead. oh well'.

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Originally Posted by Boblawblah

If he had been a tropy anime character that made sex jokes constantly? None for me, it would be a complete 180. I love him now, but it would go to a 'oh, that creepy guy is dead. oh well'.

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See, that's how I would react, too.

Like, did Haurchefant the perv have enough redeeming qualities to make his death heartbreaking to the JP audience? I'm super curious.

(Also, just realized after you replied that I put "sad" instead of "said". Jiminy Christmas, my phone hates me.)

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Originally Posted by ronibosch

I've said it before on this forum, but I've always wondered how impactful Haurchefant's death would've been on Western audiences if he remained overtly sexual.

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Just ask any French or German player. Did everyone here forget that the Western world isn't just the US?
(Despite what many claim about a version of a character they never experienced themselves, he's still well-liked in those communities. EDIT: It's just anecdotal evidence on my part, sure, but I'd say it's more valuable than complete hypothesis out of nothing like many are doing in this thread.)

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Originally Posted by Kazhar

Just ask any French or German player.
(Despite what many claim about a version of a character they never experienced themselves, he's still well-liked in those communities.)

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Oh, so he's a likeable character still, for the most part? I'll need to find more clips of him outside of the scenes posted of him being pervy.

The running joke of him being overtly sexual doesn't offend me, but I've never found that humor funny. Just "meh".

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Originally Posted by Kazhar

EDIT: It's just anecdotal evidence on my part, sure, but I'd say it's more valuable than complete hypothesis out of nothing like many are doing in this thread.)

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That's fine by me. I want anecdotal evidence! :) Please, send me your stories, French, German, and Japanese players.

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Originally Posted by ronibosch

Oh, so he's a likeable character still, for the most part? I'll need to find more clips of him outside of the scenes posted of him being pervy.

The running joke of him being overtly sexual doesn't offend me, but I've never found that humor funny. Just "meh".

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People only post what's different between the two version of the character, which gives the impression that being a creepy weirdo is his entire personality in non-NA localization. It's not, he's still one of the few characters who supports the WoL when they're at their lowest and treated as a friend. He's also not making advances each time he speaks.

For friends (of all gender I may add) who were following the story, Haurchefant's sudden death was still a shock and not treated at all like it was a good riddance. The fact that he was more of a comic relief than NA added to the gravity, I think.

From my perspective, who only learned about NA Haurchefant long after the fact, he just seems boring and generic. I understand why people dislike his original gimmick, but it made him stand above the rest of the characters in an era of the story that was quite dull.

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Originally Posted by Kazhar

People only post what's different between the two version of the character, which gives the impression that being a creepy weirdo is his entire personality in non-NA localization. It's not, he's still one of the few characters who supports the WoL when they're at their lowest and treated as a friend. He's also not making advances each time he speaks.

For friends (of all gender I may add) who were following the story, Haurchefant's sudden death was still a shock and not treated at all like it was a good riddance. The fact that he was more of a comic relief than NA added to the gravity, I think.

From my perspective, who only learned about NA Haurchefant long after the fact, he just seems boring and generic. I understand why people dislike his original gimmick, but it made him stand above the rest of the characters in an era of the story that was quite dull.

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Now I wish I understood Japanese better so I could experience the original Haurchefant in full, just to make a fair comparison. Too bad the English subtitles don't reflect the chosen language if you set the audio to Japanese (or another, non-English option).

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Originally Posted by ronibosch

I've said it before on this forum, but I've always wondered how impactful Haurchefant's death would've been on Western audiences if he remained overtly sexual.

I wish I could ask someone who experienced the story with his original characterization.

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I would echo others in this topic and say that I would have felt nothing / little for his death if the JP script was in EN.

I already dislike Alisae's & G'raha's more subtle...enthusiasm about our character, JP Haurchefant would leave me despising his character with all my being. I play games to have fun, not having my proxy insert for myself get hit on or commented with any sort of sexual tone - such things should be left entirely to the player to activate & pursue on their end, not forced on them. His localization was 100% the correct move in my own view. They only apologized after the fact because you had a small minority complaining too loud, and a simple apology is effortless to give to placate them, instead of the alternative route of introducing an utter creep of a caricature and pray that the NA fanbase likes him.

Characters that even remotely act like JP haurchefant in media get labeled as creeps & perverts in EN media, for good reason.

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Originally Posted by SenseiMaria

I would echo others in this topic and say that I would have felt nothing / little for his death if the JP script was in EN.

I already dislike Alisae's & G'raha's more subtle...enthusiasm about our character, JP Haurchefant would leave me despising his character with all my being. I play games to have fun, not having my proxy insert for myself get hit on or commented with any sort of sexual tone - such things should be left entirely to the player to activate & pursue on their end, not forced on them. His localization was 100% the correct move in my own view. They only apologized after the fact because you had a small minority complaining too loud, and a simple apology is effortless to give to placate them, instead of the alternative route of introducing an utter creep of a caricature and pray that the NA fanbase likes him.

Characters that even remotely act like JP haurchefant in media get labeled as creeps & perverts in EN media, for good reason.

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I disagree with it being 'forced' on you, and I also don't get this "proxy" analogy you're making. Your character isn't supposed to be an avatar of yourself or a virtualized projection of yourself in a digital world. It can be, but ultimately it's not, especially within these narrative contexts.
The fact that your character reacts with discomfort to it all makes it very apparent that it's a comedic trope, and not to be taken seriously.
I'm genuinely beginning to suspect that people recoil like terrified vipers at this because they believe it's fashionable to feel this way, and not just take it for what it is.

In any case, I see so many posts in this thread claiming that the JP characterization was bad or worse than the localization, or that it would have killed the character for them when he inevitably dies. I'm sorry, but if this is genuinely how you feel, then that says more about you than it does about the character that SE created. It says you're uncomfortable. It says you're distraught. Fine. But your discomfort isn't worth sacrificing the integrity of the product, or if it is, then that respect should be shared across all versions of the game, including the Japanese translation.

Also, they apologized because they agreed that it was genuinely the wrong move for them to take, going so far as to acknowledge that they deprived the audience of a memorable character. It was a departure from their own processes, in addition to a change they would not have made, had they had the foresight to see how this would go down.

I also don't know where you get this delusion that it's a 'vocal minority' of players who voiced their concerns over this, because they're not a vocal minority. It was an uproar, with many fans posting about it in the forums from EN, GER, and FR languages because their experience was deliberately censored. They wouldn't have apologized for this if a mistake hadn't been made, and no amount of assumptions will change that fact. It was viewed as an abuse of discretion by the translators, and rightfully so.

I'm a strong proponent of translation over localization when it comes to the adaptation of foreign media, since the very concept of localization opens the door to censorship and revisionism. At that point, it's no longer the vision of the creators, but that of someone else who decided on your behalf what was appropriate for you and others like you to experience, rather than letting you see a translation of it and decide this for yourself.

Localization, in my view, is a fool's errand unless you plan on an all-out reconstruction of the content in question, not unlike the American pilot for Sailor Moon, which served as a proof-of-concept of how localization and adaptation of foreign media could be done. Why? Because ultimately, no matter how much you try to adapt it, it's still going to be foreign to Western audiences by virtue of its inception. It's distinctly Japanese and carries with it all the nuances and artistic/literary intricacies which surround it, which goes hand-in-hand as to why it's largely unnecessary. You and others like you would have overlooked the Haurchefant issues, or wouldn't have been phased or bothered by it had it released translated, and not censored. You would have consumed it and shrugged it off. It's not like he was a dealbreaker between you being able to enjoy the game and its story.

Localization of the type this forum post was about isn't something that should be celebrated or cheered on. This type of approach went beyond mere adaptation of media to appeal to a foreign market, it was a deliberate act of censorship and represented an egregious and nauseating departure from the initial vision. As consumers of and appreciators of art, we shouldn't want that. We shouldn't want to support this.
We should accept that Japanese media may be 'problematic' in these ways and enjoy it for what it is just like they do, because to them, it's not problematic. It's comedy. It's entertainment. I've said it before, but localization of this type really does erode a real chance at cultural understanding. The fact that people are even debating this with me shows that they're more concerned about their own preferences rather than retaining artistic and literary integrity, which matters far more than they'd care to ever realize.

"censorship good if it's something I dislike"

>art
It’s a video game, and an mmo at that. The localisation is done in house so it’s not even as if they’re sending it out to a third party.
Also why is discomfort not the reaction you’d expect from it not being a comedic device? It’s not enough to warrant death is it?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fulminating

>art
It’s a video game, and an mmo at that. The localisation is done in house so it’s not even as if they’re sending it out to a third party.
Also why is discomfort not the reaction you’d expect from it not being a comedic device? It’s not enough to warrant death is it?

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>implying video games are not art
>implying that the narrative, aesthetic, and other expressive elements are magically precluded from being art
I shiggy diggy

And what does it matter if the localization is done in-house? It's still something that they can be criticized for, especially if it's so egregious. Changing/altering the content to satisfy perceived offense is literally censorship. They shouldn't have to, and are not obligated to satisfy or staid the irrationalities and insecurities of a foreign audience. Failure to appreciate is not a reason to suppress.

In spite of all of the things I adamantly dislike about the FFXIV localization, with all the unnecessary flavortext and word choice that changes the mood/tone of certain things (in addition to turning reading dialog in-game into a chore because there's too much text), adapting jokes/references to Western ones, etc it's still a better job since they DO in fact work with the writers in order to keep it ultimately the same experience. There's a good-faith effort to ensure that the initial vision of the creators and writers are kept, as opposed to simply removing or changing things that would offend others or be perceived as politically incorrect.

But even though it's serviceable, I would still prefer to have a direct translated option.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alltair

"censorship good if it's something I dislike"

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Pretty much. I'd rather see something for what it is, than be exposed to a watered down version of it. Nothing pisses me off more than being told what I can and can't see, hear, read, write, say, or draw because it would be inconvenient to someone else.

Had I known that this type of censorship was present in the game, I can't say that I would have purchased the game. Censorship is a genuine deal-breaker, I never want to feel insecure or not confident that what I'm experiencing is not sincere or true.

I love art. I love expression. I love being able to resonate with whatever it is I'm reading, watching, or playing, being exposed to someone else's vision. Deviations or alterations from that can be felt, and ruin the experience.

If Mr. Crow hadn't made that post formally apologizing for it all and acknowledging the mistakes they had made, I probably wouldn't have opted to renew my sub, and would have taken my money elsewhere.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Telkira

>implying video games are not art
>implying that the narrative, aesthetic, and other expressive elements are magically precluded from being art
I shiggy diggy

And what does it matter if the localization is done in-house? It's still something that they can be criticized for, especially if it's so egregious. Changing/altering the content to satisfy perceived offense is literally censorship. They shouldn't have to, and are not obligated to satisfy or staid the irrationalities and insecurities of a foreign audience. Failure to appreciate is not a reason to suppress.

In spite of all of the things I adamantly dislike about the FFXIV localization, with all the unnecessary flavortext and word choice that changes the mood/tone of certain things (in addition to turning reading dialog in-game into a chore because there's too much text), adapting jokes/references to Western ones, etc it's still a better job since they DO in fact work with the writers in order to keep it ultimately the same experience. There's a good-faith effort to ensure that the initial vision of the creators and writers are kept, as opposed to simply removing or changing things that would offend others or be perceived as politically incorrect.

But even though it's serviceable, I would still prefer to have a direct translated option.

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But the point of a game like FFXIV is exactly to be serviceable, this is not a classic book that you can't change anything on the translation otherwise it loses its initial flavour, this is a multiplayer videogame, and a worlwide one at it that exist to appeal most audiences.
Since the initial writers didnt have any problem with the change due to localization being made in-house, I really dont see why a small part of the community outrages about it other than japanese obsession. Like they say.. live and let live.

In case someone want an example of japanese Haurchefant this is a translation of a quest. Up to you if you like or dislike it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DayHealer

But the point of a game like FFXIV is exactly to be serviceable, this is not a classic book that you can't change anything on the translation otherwise it loses its initial flavour, this is a multiplayer videogame, and a worlwide one at it that exist to appeal most audiences.
Since the initial writers didnt have any problem with the change due to localization being made in-house, I really dont see why a small part of the community outrages about it other than japanese obsession. Like they say.. live and let live.

In case someone want an example of japanese Haurchefant this is a translation of a quest. Up to you if you like or dislike it.

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It's still a Japanese product, and attempting to water that down or 'enhance' it literally ruins the experience. I've plugged various dialog and text items into DeepL just to see how different things are, and it's astonishing how much is lost by all the excess flavortext.

Look at this right here.
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...3935/image.png
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...1312/image.png
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...7189/image.png

This is an NPC that stands outside of Gridania.
His sole purpose is to give a little bit of exposition and add flavor to the world. I genuinely don't understand why his dialog in the ENG version is so wordy, literally the DeepL translation of his JP text gives you everything you need to know about this, but without threatening overtone that is not echoed throughout the rest of the city, which is very friendly towards you and other adventurers. Why the death threat?? Is that really necessary??

I cannot tell you how much I hate this. I've had people who speak Japanese look at this very thing just to make sure DeepL was accurate and they agree with me that it's unnecessary to deviate from this.

Oh, and this isn't the only one either. There are countless other instances where the central point is the same, but this added flavor drastically changes the tone of the dialog and makes it feel out-of-place. It felt like the localizers were just looking at the script and trying to invent ways to alter the text, whereas the Japanese text is very direct and the atmosphere of the game lets you fill in the rest.

And again - it's not a small part of the community. It's a rather large part, but colonialism and braindead Western sentiments tend to present the illusion that they're a minority. My point is that it genuinely ruins the vision, and the fact that people respond with sheer hostility at this shows that there's something obscenely disingenuous about their position. Do they not like being exposed to the truth? That Koji Fox's jokes and reference replacements really aren't that good? That the Japanese version actually is better and they want to sequester themselves to a delusion that everything is fine, so they just conform to it until artistic integrity becomes an afterthought?

And finally - THANK YOU for posting the Haurchefant script! THIS IS SO MUCH BETTER! It is objectively more well-written and just feels natural.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Telkira

>implying video games are not art
>implying that the narrative, aesthetic, and other expressive elements are magically precluded from being art
I shiggy diggy

And what does it matter if the localization is done in-house? It's still something that they can be criticized for, especially if it's so egregious. Changing/altering the content to satisfy perceived offense is literally censorship. They shouldn't have to, and are not obligated to satisfy or staid the irrationalities and insecurities of a foreign audience. Failure to appreciate is not a reason to suppress.

In spite of all of the things I adamantly dislike about the FFXIV localization, with all the unnecessary flavortext and word choice that changes the mood/tone of certain things (in addition to turning reading dialog in-game into a chore because there's too much text), adapting jokes/references to Western ones, etc it's still a better job since they DO in fact work with the writers in order to keep it ultimately the same experience. There's a good-faith effort to ensure that the initial vision of the creators and writers are kept, as opposed to simply removing or changing things that would offend others or be perceived as politically incorrect.

But even though it's serviceable, I would still prefer to have a direct translated option.

---

What makes them art? It's pretty clearly a vehicle to generate revenue for the producing company to the point that the first iteration of ff14 was withdrawn and is unavailable entirely because of the negative impact.

As a parallel, what's the name of 617 squadron's dog. You cannot tell me that localising that for a film with an american audience is not a sensible monetary decision. Why is haurchefant being unpalatable to the target audience of people who may pay monthly any different? The easy solution for you is to just play in japanese if it's so essential to have an unadulterated experience.

Amazing how OP still thinks their taste the universal truth. I understand you would like JP haurchefant more. I wouldnt. Other people in this thread told you they wouldnt.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fulminating

What makes them art? It's pretty clearly a vehicle to generate revenue for the producing company to the point that the first iteration of ff14 was withdrawn and is unavailable entirely because of the negative impact.

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Being a product for profit does not disqualify something from being regarded as 'art'.
What makes something art is a ponderous question for many, but objectively, for something to be regarded as 'art' it must have artistic value, which is defined as any deliberate form of human expression that appeals to, or resonates, emotional feelings and sentiments or aesthetics. It can be shallow, it can be vague, it can even be offensive or vulgar, but the fact that it is expressive and/or invokes a reaction makes it art. Even sexually explicit media, designed to titillate sexual feelings, is considered a valid artistic purpose.

People who say something is not art tend to be proven wrong.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fulminating

As a parallel, what's the name of 617 squadron's dog. You cannot tell me that localising that for a film with an american audience is not a sensible monetary decision. Why is haurchefant being unpalatable to the target audience of people who may pay monthly any different? The easy solution for you is to just play in japanese if it's so essential to have an unadulterated experience.

---

You know, some people would disregard this question on the basis that one is raunchy/silly humor in a cartoony fantasy game made in Japan and one is a historical account involving the name of a black dog.
And generally, I stood with those who wanted historical accuracy over revisionism/censorship of the name, with the only thing necessary to save face with the public being a disclaimer at the beginning.

I would much rather see them take the same approach that Time Warner took by placing a disclaimer at the beginning of Looney Tunes, whereby they stand with their commitment to preservation, notwithstanding the dismay of those who would object for socio-political clout.
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...gsU4AA-bx6.jpg

That's all very well, but SE is a multidollar for-profit company and artistic integrity is not going to carry as much weight as more money, particularly after the utter disaster that was the first attempt at the game. 2.0 had to appeal to people and generate revenue or SE was going to go under.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Saraide

Amazing how OP still thinks their taste the universal truth. I understand you would like JP haurchefant more. I wouldnt. Other people in this thread told you they wouldnt.

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Matters of preference are not truth. My opinion just happens to have more weight than those who would disagree. I've pointed out all of the issues with it, yet all people seem to care about is this watered-down non-canonical parody that wasn't even supposed to exist in the first place.

I wouldn't be so bothered if the decision to change Haurchefant were one that was actually handled by the team in a proper manner, and not zealous localizers who think it's their job to protect culture from problematic media. There's a reason why they get so much flakk on Twitter and elsewhere when changes to media are made, it's rightly deserved criticism and Japanese companies would do right to consider the cultural divide that's being cultivated by these problematic and censorious decisions and simply not work with colonialists.

As noted earlier, there's a very clear cultural divide between myself and others like me and the Westernized fans. The 'subs vs. dubs' camp, the pro-vs-anti varieties, etc. The only thing you have going for you is this delusion that localizing vs. translating would be a better business decision, when that's not the case at all. You people would still consume it because that's what you do. Your positions and your reasons for having them are indicative of a level of socio-conformitive passivity that you refuse to challenge, which leaves me unable to see any degree of merit in your positions above simply having a different opinion.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Telkira

Matters of preference are not truth. My opinion just happens to have more weight than those who would disagree. I've pointed out all of the issues with it, yet all people seem to care about is this watered-down non-canonical parody that wasn't even supposed to exist in the first place.

I wouldn't be so bothered if the decision to change Haurchefant were one that was actually handled by the team in a proper manner, and not zealous localizers who think it's their job to protect culture from problematic media. There's a reason why they get so much flakk on Twitter and elsewhere when changes to media are made, it's rightly deserved criticism and Japanese companies would do right to consider the cultural divide that's being cultivated by these problematic and censorious decisions and simply not work with colonialists.

As noted earlier, there's a very clear cultural divide between myself and others like me and the Westernized fans. The 'subs vs. dubs' camp, the pro-vs-anti varieties, etc. The only thing you have going for you is this delusion that localizing vs. translating would be a better business decision, when that's not the case at all. You people would still consume it because that's what you do. Your positions and your reasons for having them are indicative of a level of socio-conformitive passivity that you refuse to challenge, which leaves me unable to see any degree of merit in your positions above simply having a different opinion.

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I've never seen someone so openly proud about being arrogant on this forum.