The Healers should be reworked? New player perspective.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Ehh, I'm sorry, but... XIV "combos" are only 1 action apiece. There is no reason for even DPS to be saddled with that little nuance available per button, let alone a non-DPS.

No, anything approaching a combo system to be added to healers, should be more like Monk -- but with only some 6 or fewer actions we'll likely have to work with, it'll have to actually support higher nuance per button than Monk's GCDs do.

But the last thing we need is to add 3 buttons to support a single new action split across 3 GCDs... that virtually everyone will reduce to 1 button anyways if given the option (especially if it isn't interrupted by healing GCDs, which would remove real benefit to the tactile cues of separate buttons).



I'll toss in a WHM mock-up later. Oddly enough, I do agree with Ren that WHM should have fewer discrete DPS GCDs than, say, SCH and SGE; but, that's because a huge portion of WHM's complexity should come from its early-accessible core and that its GCDs should be more multi-purpose, such that it has as many GCDs that can be used for damage as SCH and SGE, just fewer that have to be (while it also has the greatest number of brief but impactful situational utility GCDs).

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Why does it matter as long as it's optional? You are not obligated to use that system. It's just an automated button that chooses the "best" attack for the moment. If that can be a form of leverage in order to allow each job to have more varied gameplay, then what's the harm?

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

Why does it matter as long as it's optional? You are not obligated to use that system. It's just an automated button that chooses the "best" attack for the moment. If that can be a form of leverage in order to allow each job to have more varied gameplay, then what's the harm?

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I'm not calling it harmful -- merely an utter waste.

Using XIV "combos" is to purposely make a single action take up multiple buttons of space. And that has accordant, if minor, issues:

Assuming a 3-step combo, we either...

• lose 2 actions (each 1 button) to support that 3-button single action just to keep that slightly less punishing an option,
  --or--
• we effectively make the already zero-advantage option of non-consolidation (especially, without a context in which those tactile cues of moving from 1 to 2 to 3 would be useful, as on ShB or EW SAM, HW NIN, etc.) also waste handier button-space that's becoming increasingly more valuable/limited.

XIV "combos" are pure bloat. If you want to use them to offer multiple different attack animations and some ppgcd cycling on a single action/button, by all means, go for it. But there's no point in constraining the rest of the kit around a pretense that those are separate actions.

At which point, you'll have just another Healer with n non-healing GCDs, but one of said GCDs has 3 animations. It's an incredibly small improvement, if any. And you could as easily have provided that animation variance instead through actual skill interactions (procs, status effect conditionals, branching sequence-based conditionals instead of merely a single rigid series of unlocks, etc.).

Any other way to use multiple actions together (or, better put, having each skill actually be its own action) would be better, be they actual combos (see other MMOs) or whatever other means of interaction. So while I wouldn't be opposed to a consolidated combo, we can most certainly do better.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Genuinely curious, do you honestly think that healers getting DPS buttons would cause all the subscriptions to collapse?

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Demand it and let see what happens…..

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Originally Posted by Osmond

One thing I’ve learned about politacos, ppl will double down on this crazy idea that this path will work for everyone and this 1 guy/gal warn them that it doesn’t work. It goes through anyway because it FEELS GOOD and it immediately falls apart, ruining a good system.

At some point you just throw your hands up and give them what they want. Here overhaul everything for healers. Have all the DPS buttons, go back to ARR days and see all the subscriptions just collapsed. The ppl who asked for this……….crickets. Won’t admit that what they ask for ruined that system.

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Yeah, you're 100% right.

Maybe they should do this for an expansion. The mass exodus of Healers that follows, the dungeon runs taking 2x as long because the casual Healers don't know what they're doing and Healer DPS tanks, everyone complaining about how regular Healers have stopped DPSing in dungeons, 24 mans, and so on. All the casual Healers quit the role and start doing something else like playing DPS or just quitting the game entirely. People who are "If I wanted a dps rotation, I'd play a DPS Job" going extra heels in the sand and just not hitting ANY DPS buttons at all. Ques taking ages because all the "high end players" tend to run dailies/roulettes with their friends and all the casual Healers quit quing - what the hardcores said would happen in ShB and EW would actually happen.

Then the Devs make a rare mid-expansion reversal of it all because of how there's no one Healing in casual content and even TANKS have 30+ minute ques now because there aren't enough elitist players to fill the gap and keep the ques running for normal content.

I doubt the people wanting it wouldd even admit then that they had been wrong. And then, not only would it all be reverted, but they wouldn't even get a SINGLE damage focused Healer Job, and they would never get one again, either, due to their own stubbornness.

There would be a certain poetic irony to that, but it'd suck to have to go through it.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

So give every healer more DPS actions and introduce the auto-combo system. This makes all 4 healers accessible to both camps. Pro-DPS healers get 4 healers, and Anti-DPS healers get 4 healers.

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Maybe. If the auto system was smart enough to always do the right thing so that using it would actually produce more DPS than not using it outside of someone not using it executing exactly perfect play - in which case they'd merely do "just as well". But I doubt that'd be what you want.

Especially since the actual easy fix would be...to leave one single Healer Job alone.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Genuinely curious, do you honestly think that healers getting DPS buttons would cause all the subscriptions to collapse?

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"all"? No.

What it would do is cause a shortage of Healers in casual content - roulettes - which is something the Devs DO care about. There aren't enough of you hardcore types to fill in roulettes for all the people who would quit healing. Not only are there just not enough of you, many hardcore raider types don't do casual roulettes. They do Experts or the like with their fellow Static members. We've seen similar problems in the past when there were Tank shortages. The high end Tank players who loved it weren't filling in the roulettes. They'd do enough to get BiS, then they wouldn't que for them anymore. I suspect the same would happen to healing.

You know there's one thing that will get the Devs to act faster than anything to "fix" the problem - if DPS have to wait more than 15 minutes for a 4 man dungeon que.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Nope. Read it again, if you must:

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Yes, let's "Read it again":

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

If I ask you if you want, for example, more money and you answer no, does this mean you would be upset if given more money?

If I ask you, among a small set of possible pathways to improve your quality of life at work, whether a dedicated parking space, fewer on-call hours, improvements to the break room, etc., would be a significant boon for you, are you therefore outright opposed to each pathway you didn't specifically say 'Yes' to?


So we have two ways to interpret the intersection between a bimodal question (More Offensive Actions? [Yes/No]) and its 5 actual sourcing opinions...

1. I want more actions,
2. I want an equal or greater number of actions,
3. I want the same number of actions (no more and no fewer),
4. I want an equal or lesser number of actions, and
5. I want fewer actions

And in the end we cannot quite know which is the most accurate. One perhaps overstates the majority by 21%. The other perhaps overstates the minority by 900%.



I can't say I'm surprised, though, that the latter interpretation is used to subject a job to being cut/kept to a barebone version, per your long-running project, Ren, on the basis of --at absolute most-- an opinion held by only 20% of respondents.

...All while ignoring, as usual, that a job having a decent ceiling does not prevent it from having an enjoyable floor and decent ease of use to the extent necessary to clear nearly all content and fulfill one's unique duties as healer. A job that runs a full gamut (A to Z, so to speak) of gameplay factors, instead of being cropped short at N, still has access to gameplay factors A to M.

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Huh. THAT'S odd, isn't it?

THIS:

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

We know that 80% clicked the button to ask for more damage buttons, and 20% did not. That is all.

There was not button for No. There was no button for indifferent. One simply clicked off any among the 5 options per "Which of the following [one] would like to see in the future for White Mage? (Check all that apply.)" Those options, by the way, were shared almost identically across all jobs regardless of role.

What you're concluding is an interpretation (more than likely biased) of the data's findings, but not the findings themselves. Ironic, given your complaints and your agreement otherwise that more response options would be required to reach more specific conclusions.

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Doesn't appear anywhere in THAT, now does it?

Maybe because you said it later, AFTER I had already said it first?

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Originally Posted by Renathras

What we DO know is that only 79.X% of the survey respondents asked for more attacking options, even though everyone had the option to ask for more if they wanted them. We also know that some people answering that option didn't want MORE attack abilities, they just wanted them at earlier levels (Misery was often cited as something people want WHM to get earlier than it does). And we know that ~20% do not want more attack actions, with 2-4% wanting less.

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Meaning either you changed your story after I said what was correct, or you didn't read my post before replying to it (a trend, it seems) and thought you were making a novel point when I had literally said the same thing above you. You can possibly argue that I need to add one word ("explicitly" after "20% do not" and before "want more" - "~20% do not explicitly want more attack actions"), but otherwise, I said the exact same thing, and before you did, while noting that was my specific issue with your reply above. Replying to me AFTER that saying the same thing I'm saying doesn't make you right and me wrong or some such.

Indeed, your implication with the money was that anyone not adamantly against it would probably not mind it - as irl most people don't mind more money. I was giving you a rebuttal saying we don't know that, because the poll didn't ask that. All we know is 80% said they want more damage actions - an explicit choice the survey offered - and 20% did not say they want more damage actions. You can't read into their minds to know if the WOULD mind or not, we only know that they did not say they want more damage actions. Meaning 20% did not say they want more damage actions. 1 in 5; which is an ample percentage to base a decision and a Job around.

FAR FEWER people play BLM, and we have a Job for them.

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As for Combos: I actually DO somewhat agree with you. The time where it makes sense to have the separate buttons is in a case like MNK where you can use any of the pairs of actions (based on stance), and you actually cycle between them in varied ways. But that wouldn't work for a non-DPS Job since that's a lot of focus on buttons and muscle memory that doesn't make sense to impose on other Roles. That is, where you're not always going to follow the exact same pattern no matter what. PLD, for example, will always use Riot Blade after Fast Blade, and always use Royal Authority after Riot Blade. There's never any variance, so the other buttons might as well be Glare-Glare-Glare. This is true of all the non-branching combos in the game, such as RDM's melee combo. At least SMN figured this out with its 1-2 being the same button, and GNB half-figured this out with Gnashing Fang, though it took an expansion.

Again, for a DPS Job, it makes some sense so they have other buttons to hit with their fingers and something to occupy some of their mental energy since it's all devoted to DPSing, but it doesn't make sense for other Roles and is arguably an inferior system even for DPS Jobs.

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To give you a sense of scale, btw: https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...nd_raid_mount/

Add up the total number of Healers. Note these are just people with high (at the time) ilevel weapons, meaning they were doing Savages or at least Extremes (Barb Ex weapon; I had it on WHM at the time) and before Relics were released to give everyone highish ilevel weapons.

There are a total of 86,365 Healers.
There are 14,883 BLMs.

If you divide the second by the first, you'd find that's only 17% as many BLMs as there are Healers. Which is approximately the portion of the Healer population that doesn't want new DPS actions.

If BLMs liking BLM is enough reason for BLM to exist as a Job, even though it bucks the general trend of DPS and the 2 min meta...

...then about that same percentage of Healers/number of players wanting a Healer with no new damage actions seems ample to be worth them having a Job for them.

So that part of the conversation is done, just as done as SCHs wanting more damage or ASTs wanting more buffs.
(And note BLM isn't the least played Job, either...)

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Originally Posted by Renathras

Maybe. If the auto system was smart enough to always do the right thing so that using it would actually produce more DPS than not using it outside of someone not using it executing exactly perfect play - in which case they'd merely do "just as well". But I doubt that'd be what you want.

Especially since the actual easy fix would be...to leave one single Healer Job alone.

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Why does that matter to you? It's not like you're a high-performing healer right now.

An auto-combo button would lack nuance to do things like hold afflatus misery if you need to wait for the next buff window, or it would still have you apply DoTs even to an enemy with 5% of their HP remaining. But you can also just keybind regular Glare outside of that to delay whatever the auto-button is telling you anyway. If anything, the system would improve your current performance. But a master healer wouldn't use it.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I'm not calling it harmful -- merely an utter waste.

Using XIV "combos" is to purposely make a single action take up multiple buttons of space. And that has accordant, if minor, issues:

Assuming a 3-step combo, we either...

• lose 2 actions (each 1 button) to support that 3-button single action just to keep that slightly less punishing an option,
  --or--
• we effectively make the already zero-advantage option of non-consolidation (especially, without a context in which those tactile cues of moving from 1 to 2 to 3 would be useful, as on ShB or EW SAM, HW NIN, etc.) also waste handier button-space that's becoming increasingly more valuable/limited.

XIV "combos" are pure bloat. If you want to use them to offer multiple different attack animations and some ppgcd cycling on a single action/button, by all means, go for it. But there's no point in constraining the rest of the kit around a pretense that those are separate actions.

At which point, you'll have just another Healer with n non-healing GCDs, but one of said GCDs has 3 animations. It's an incredibly small improvement, if any. And you could as easily have provided that animation variance instead through actual skill interactions (procs, status effect conditionals, branching sequence-based conditionals instead of merely a single rigid series of unlocks, etc.).

Any other way to use multiple actions together (or, better put, having each skill actually be its own action) would be better, be they actual combos (see other MMOs) or whatever other means of interaction. So while I wouldn't be opposed to a consolidated combo, we can most certainly do better.

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It wasn't a 3-step combo though. Did you take a look at the example I gave using a mix of old WHM gameplay? None of that is "combo" in the literal sense. It's just a button that chooses the generally most important tool for you when available.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

"all"? No.

What it would do is cause a shortage of Healers in casual content - roulettes - which is something the Devs DO care about. There aren't enough of you hardcore types to fill in roulettes for all the people who would quit healing. Not only are there just not enough of you, many hardcore raider types don't do casual roulettes. They do Experts or the like with their fellow Static members. We've seen similar problems in the past when there were Tank shortages. The high end Tank players who loved it weren't filling in the roulettes. They'd do enough to get BiS, then they wouldn't que for them anymore. I suspect the same would happen to healing.

You know there's one thing that will get the Devs to act faster than anything to "fix" the problem - if DPS have to wait more than 15 minutes for a 4 man dungeon que.

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I don't think that's a valid assumption. ARR>HW's cleric stance was far more punishing and problematic than any sensible healer viable DPS rotation will ever be. It didn't stop healers from being plentiful in casual content, it just stopped a large portion of the healer player base from DPSing. Despite what the years of pointless threads would have one believe, at the end of the day it wasn't a real problem outside of very specific content that said casual players likely weren't touching anyway.

Honestly, hardcore players are just as likely/unlikely to roll with friends or solo queue as anyone else. It's a personal preference thing. There's just less need to get the daily Experto in than ever before now. Farm maps? You're probably capped. Hunts? Almost certainly capped. Still clearing Savage? That's a bunch of tomes towards the weekly balance right there.

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Originally Posted by Osmond

Demand it and let see what happens…..

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No, I'd much rather see healing become genuinely challenging much sooner into the endgame, but I'm also under no illusion that that would be far more damaging to the accessibility and popularity of this game at a casual level.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

The mass exodus of Healers that follows, the dungeon runs taking 2x as long because the casual Healers don't know what they're doing and Healer DPS tanks, everyone complaining about how regular Healers have stopped DPSing in dungeons, 24 mans, and so on.

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As a casual healer, I have to say: I'm deeply insulted by how little you think I'm capable of.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

It wasn't a 3-step combo though. Did you take a look at the example I gave using a mix of old WHM gameplay? None of that is "combo" in the literal sense. It's just a button that chooses the generally most important tool for you when available.

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Fair enough. I should not have quoted your post in critiquing the suggestions to add combos to healers since, by "combos" you did not mean anything like the combos in XIV or in any other MMO, and instead meant something more, from what I can glean from...

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

Afflatus Misery > Luminescence > Dia > Banish > Holy > Glare. It starts at Misery. If you don't have a blood lily, it goes to your DoTs, if your current target has each DoT, it looks to spend your charges of Banish and your Holy conditional. If none of those apply, it defaults to Glare. There would also be an AoE auto combo that would go: Afflatus Misery > Luminescence > Banish > Holy. The only thing you otherwise use manually is Assize.

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...like an Auto-battle feature but wherein one still hits the button each GCD a la FF15.

My apologies for the confusion. I should have quoted instead any of the several other times across recent healer threads that people have asked for actual combos to be added to healers.

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To be clear, I actually have relatively few qualms with giving players (or healers in particular, in this case) official consolidation options to the extent of basically Auto-rotating their attacks (with GCD-by-GCD confirmation/reactivation), if only because...

1. I think kits should be designed in such a way that that will never be optimal anyways, even if good enough for most players most of the time in raid/trial combat, and
2. It's already, for better or worse, available via plugins.

But, I also don't think it's remotely necessary, and would probably require new features (like checking for movement at time of button-press) to even be worthwhile, since that consolidation would remove the ability to, say, cast Dia freely for movement or to avoid casting Dia on an enemy about to die, etc.

Consolidation would be decent for supporting new actions of similar enough type to what we already have, such as adding further but consolidated combo steps would do, but even the skills we already have don't lend themselves well to consolidation; Dia isn't actually a 30s CD and serves more purposes than just increased ppgcd, just as Regen isn't just a more MP-efficient Cure II equivalent, etc., etc.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Fair enough. I should not have quoted your post in critiquing the suggestions to add combos to healers since, by "combos" you did not mean anything like the combos in XIV or in any other MMO, and instead meant something more, from what I can glean from...


...like an Auto-battle feature but wherein one still hits the button each GCD a la FF15.

My apologies for the confusion. I should have quoted instead any of the several other times across recent healer threads that people have asked for actual combos to be added to healers.

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To be clear, I actually have relatively few qualms with giving players (or healers in particular, in this case) official consolidation options to the extent of basically Auto-rotating their attacks (with GCD-by-GCD confirmation/reactivation), if only because...

1. I think kits should be designed in such a way that that will never be optimal anyways, even if good enough for most players most of the time in raid/trial combat, and
2. It's already, for better or worse, available via plugins.

But, I also don't think it's remotely necessary, and would probably require new features (like checking for movement at time of button-press) to even be worthwhile, since that consolidation would remove the ability to, say, cast Dia freely for movement or to avoid casting Dia on an enemy about to die, etc.

Consolidation would be decent for supporting new actions of similar enough type to what we already have, such as adding further but consolidated combo steps would do, but Dia isn't actually a 30s CD and serves more purposes than just increased ppgcd, just as Regen isn't just a more MP-efficient Cure II equivalent; even the skills we already have don't lend themselves well to consolidation.

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No big deal. Auto-Battle is a better term as well. And I agree with point 1. As I mentioned in response to Ren's desire for the opposite, there's nuance that you likely can't get around.

I also don't feel it's necessary per say, but rather, my argument is using that as a bargaining chip. If we *must* have a childproof way of allowing anyone to reach passable levels of DPS output, then having more elegant DPS tools and general gameplay that also features an auto-battle type tool that pushes you through most--if not all of your GCD DPS "rotation" so that those who cannot handle or do not like going through the job's manual gameplay, then that I think is a compromise where group A does not step on the toes of group B and vice versa.

On the topic of your Dia example, you can still set regular Dia to your hotbar and use it manually as a movement tool if you want to. Nothing stops you from setting any of those actions to your hotbar as manual actions.

Whether or not this can be done with plugin's though is irrelevant to me because that's not officially supported, nor can every player utilize this. Having a more optimized, official button to manage this can be the proxy needed to allow jobs to move away from this crusade in the name of simplicity.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

No big deal. Auto-Battle is a better term as well. And I agree with point 1. As I mentioned in response to Ren's desire for the opposite, there's nuance that you likely can't get around.

I also don't feel it's necessary per say, but rather, my argument is using that as a bargaining chip. If we *must* have a childproof way of allowing anyone to reach passable levels of DPS output, then having more elegant DPS tools and general gameplay that also features an auto-battle type tool that pushes you through most--if not all of your GCD DPS "rotation" so that those who cannot handle or do not like going through the job's manual gameplay, then that I think is a compromise where group A does not step on the toes of group B and vice versa.

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Sounds good to me, yeah. Again, sorry for having blended topics earlier.

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On the topic of your Dia example, you can still set regular Dia to your hotbar and use it manually as a movement tool if you want to. Nothing stops you from setting any of those actions to your hotbar as manual actions.

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True, that's a very good point. For whatever reason I still I had my head stuck in/on the existing models, official and third-party, but if we were making something new and better then there are obviously no such constraints.

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Whether or not this can be done with plugin's though is irrelevant to me because that's not officially supported, nor can every player utilize this. Having a more optimized, official button to manage this can be the proxy needed to allow jobs to move away from this crusade in the name of simplicity.

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Make sense.

One other piece of food for thought, though: If we just lifted the knee-capping order on macros and allowed them instead at least the functionality of WoW's only half-restricted ones... that's an official means of consolidation already.

Now, replace all the random codes and syntax one would need to memorize with a more intuitive and accessible GUI for making those macros --or maybe now call them, idk, Gamuts or whatever it was in XII-- and... there you have it. And the game could provide/recommend premade damn good Gamuts that cover whatever skills one's acquired and maybe even allow for the importing of Gamuts and even... Layouts, etc.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

Why does that matter to you?

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It matters enough to you that you would oppose it...so that means it's important to me, too.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

I don't think that's a valid assumption.

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I suspect it's more valid than you think. You mention ARR/HW Cleric, but as we've talked about before, Cleric wasn't used by large portions of the community, and as people here are fond of saying, "We were all bad back then" and the game's nuances hadn't been fully probed and mathed out.

...and about when those things changed into what the modern playerbase is, Cleric was removed. Specifically for that reason - that it was dividing the community and that there was a big disparity between Healer damage outcomes which gave the Devs headaches to try to balance around. It didn't stop Healers from being plentiful UNTIL people got good enough/the game got solved enough that people started cussing out others in casual content for not using it. And what happened? ENOUGH Healers were quitting healing that the Devs took note and removed Cleric (as a toggle). In other words, this very thing happened before with the more modern playerbase.

And the game's only become EVEN MORE casual since then.

Disagree with the last bit. While everything IS personal preference, history has shown us that the hardcore players were not in the casual pool, and certainly not enough to make up for an exodus of casuals. We saw this with Tanks in mid-to-late SB.

Again: Do you really doubt the Devs will react if they start to see DPS que times creep up? We both know that's something they actually DO care about. And history has two examples to us of this happening, meaning it's not at all unreasonable to assume it would again. You can argue the magnitude, but not that it won't happen.

For one, I'd quit healing. Absolutely. I might outright quit the game, but I'd definitely quit healing. I've said before, if I want a DPS rotation, I'll play a DPS Job. If I don't outright quit the game, I'd just swap to maining SMN and being part of the DPS que - which, incidentally, would make the ques worse.

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Originally Posted by AmiableApkallu

As a casual healer, I have to say: I'm deeply insulted by how little you think I'm capable of.

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Where did I state what you or anyone is "capable of"?

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Originally Posted by Renathras

It matters enough to you that you would oppose it...so that means it's important to me, too.

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How petty of you.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

Maybe they should do this for an expansion. The mass exodus of Healers that follows, the dungeon runs taking 2x as long because the casual Healers don't know what they're doing and Healer DPS tanks, everyone complaining about how regular Healers have stopped DPSing in dungeons, 24 mans, and so on. All the casual Healers quit the role and start doing something else like playing DPS or just quitting the game entirely. People who are "If I wanted a dps rotation, I'd play a DPS Job" going extra heels in the sand and just not hitting ANY DPS buttons at all. Ques taking ages because all the "high end players" tend to run dailies/roulettes with their friends and all the casual Healers quit quing - what the hardcores said would happen in ShB and EW would actually happen.

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What a load of fearmongering nonsense. We already have healers who refuse to press either damage or healing buttons. No one can convince me that the opinion of cure 1 mages is even worth considering in any expansions content.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

How petty of you.

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Aw, another insult. /yawn

It's not petty - you're saying it's important enough that you need to fight me over it, while also insisting that it's not/shouldn't be important to me.

This isn't new with you, but I've started calling out people telling me to just accept something they want because it shouldn't be important to me, noting that if it wasn't important, they wouldn't be fighting me over it. You can't insist something isn't important or shouldn't be important to people when it IS important enough to you to fight over it. It being important to you would be sufficient for me to determine it's something I should find important to me as well. If it wasn't something worthy of importance, then you wouldn't be fighting me over it.

Also:

How am I the petty one for finding it important and not you being the petty one for proposing a solution that lets people be decent only but not match you? This is yet another insult you level at me that more accurately describes you.

Why are you so petty, Ty?

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Originally Posted by fulminating

What a load of...

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Someone proposed a scorched earth idea that would give people demanding it their just deserts, I merely went along with it.

As I said to Sebezy, we know this would happen, because we have historic examples of it.

And I have yet to find anyone who can prove "Cure 1 mages" exist. Maybe it's out there, but I've never seen any video evidence that this actually exists.

You know very well if Healers were changed, the average DPS would go down - it's what you're counting on as otherwise, the change would be meaningless.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

Aw, another insult. /yawn

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It wasn't an insult. It was an observation of your behavior.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

It wasn't an insult. It was an observation of your behavior.

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No, it wasn't, because you were the one being petty, not me.

When you insult people, at least have the courage of your convictions not to cower from it when called out.

I didn't say "because you care, I care" (which wouldn't be petty, per se - "because you care about charity for children with cancer, I care" wouldn't be petty in most any context). I'm saying if it's important enough that you feel it's important, then it seems to me reasonable to believe it's important as well.

Which means if finding it important is petty: You are petty.

Call it "an observation of your behavior", if you like.

.

EDIT: Or, you know, just stop insulting or "observing" people in insulting ways. You never "observe" any positive things about me, so let's be real, it was an insult, and we both know it. You aren't stupid, Ty, and neither am I. Your deflections and defenses these last few days have been pretty lacking...so actually, I feel I should ask:

Is everything going okay with you/in your life? You doing okay irl, buddy? (That, btw, is genuine.)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Renathras

No, it wasn't, because you were the one being petty, not me.

When you insult people, at least have the courage of your convictions not to cower from it when called out.

I didn't say "because you care, I care" (which wouldn't be petty, per se - "because you care about charity for children with cancer, I care" wouldn't be petty in most any context). I'm saying if it's important enough that you feel it's important, then it seems to me reasonable to believe it's important as well.

Which means if finding it important is petty: You are petty.

Call it "an observation of your behavior", if you like.

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No, it really IS petty when you say it like that. If you say "because you care about charity for children with cancer, I care" then I only expect that you only care because he cares about this issue and you wouldn't give a second thought if he didn't care about cancer....
You're basically saying you're only paying attention because someone else is paying attention. The logic you are using is pretty much incongruous and shows you wouldn't give a damn about something like this had it not been for someone else.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

...and about when those things changed into what the modern playerbase is, Cleric was removed. Specifically for that reason - that it was dividing the community and that there was a big disparity between Healer damage outcomes which gave the Devs headaches to try to balance around. It didn't stop Healers from being plentiful UNTIL people got good enough/the game got solved enough that people started cussing out others in casual content for not using it. And what happened? ENOUGH Healers were quitting healing that the Devs took note and removed Cleric (as a toggle). In other words, this very thing happened before with the more modern playerbase.

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By the end of HW I clearly remember wildly overblown threads loudly proclaiming 'HEALERS MUST DPS' or 'HEALERS MUSTN'T DPS' all over here and reddit.

I also clearly remember WHM somewhat frequently getting excluded in PF for Extreme and Savage content. This peaked around the skip soar or disband Zurvan meme days around 3.5?.

I don't remember seeing an exodus of healers though and I highly doubt that cleric was removed specifically for that reason. By all means cite your sources that confirms otherwise but IMHO that's a Stretch Armstrong tier reach.

I don't think you're far off though, just cut out everything after the bit where people were cussing each other out over the thing. My suspicion is that it got removed because it was so divisive and it was directly at odds with the casual centric direction Yoshida wanted to head in.

Regardless, done with this one. If you're going to tell me how I played both now and years ago then there's little point continuing this conversation.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

By the end of HW I clearly remember wildly overblown threads loudly proclaiming 'HEALERS MUST DPS' or 'HEALERS MUSTN'T DPS' all over here and reddit.

I also clearly remember WHM somewhat frequently getting excluded in PF for Extreme and Savage content. This peaked around the skip soar or disband Zurvan meme days around 3.5?.

I don't remember seeing an exodus of healers though and I highly doubt that cleric was removed specifically for that reason. By all means cite your sources that confirms otherwise but IMHO that's a Stretch Armstrong tier reach.

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The consensus back then was pretty consistent: Cleric Stance was an easy but stupidly annoying mechanic, in no small part because it badly punished Spell Speed (since it'd effectively increases the cooldown past 2 GCDs' time) and the un-stance didn't queue properly. It added virtually nothing despite a high cost to QoL.

Was it causing healers to quit healing, though? No. After all, that was what they were used to from level 2 onward.

just remove them, put warrior and paladin as the new healers, then we good.

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Originally Posted by AnotherPerson

No, it really IS petty when you say it like that. If you say "because you care about charity for children with cancer, I care" then I only expect that you only care because he cares about this issue and you wouldn't give a second thought if he didn't care about cancer....
You're basically saying you're only paying attention because someone else is paying attention. The logic you are using is pretty much incongruous and shows you wouldn't give a damn about something like this had it not been for someone else.

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"I only care about it to be a contrarian." is a dangerously shitpost/trollish thing to admit.

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Originally Posted by AmiableApkallu

As a casual healer, I have to say: I'm deeply insulted by how little you think I'm capable of.

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......it's best not to make responses like that or ppl are going to clown you harder. Try to control that, it'll get worse. Best to grow a pair and eat it.

In my mind, this sounds like a troll, but idk in this enviroment. Everyone is emotional and pretty much forced to look at people in a cautious manor cause you don't know lol...

Hmm, when I do look at ForsakenRoe's idea, Renathras, that one might still fit the bill of still keeping WHM almost as simple as it started here. It pretty much just has 4 new buttons to press with 2 lily spells and the Blessing to button morph to Druid-like element spells. The 2 lily spells I believe are similar to your proposed idea on giving a damage reduction or Regen lily. In this case, it was used to bring back Stoneskin for a small shield. It is slightly lower than the heal amount of Solace, but it will likely feel like a better choice with our over geared situation now. Well, without the wasted feeling of just randomly using Rapture after an encounter is done. The buttons morphs change Dia, Glare and the returning cooldown Fluid Aura / Banish. So it kind of borrows from what the SMN spells do. A different spell, but the same key pressing for similar functions.

The Fluid Aura probably could be forgotten in a rotation occasionally and it would still be okay since it is just a DPS boost for content that has no enrage for most of it. The new lily spells more pertain to over gearing scenarios and the new players could still continue to use Solace and Rapture as better options when everyone is freshly geared. Forgetting the new Blessing spell would slightly sink the performance of how well the person can heal and hold mana. Not sure by how much since it would be a new spell to adjust.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

You can lay off the dude crush.

Again, you're attacking me for what your crush did.

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What are you even on about? Are you just throwing darts at the wall of 'responses to discredit opponent on online forum' now?

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Originally Posted by Renathras

Honestly, at this point, I don't even give a damn anymore. Yoshi P, if you ever read this: Don't change Healers a bit. These people don't want to compromise, just say no. I argued in favor of changing several of the Healer Jobs, I've argued in favor of making healing more complex and interesting on the healing side of things. I've argued in favor of various changes to get more mileage out of the damage kits we have.

I just don't care anymore.

If you change them, be ready for people to quit. I would at this point.

Listen to reason, or listen to the uncompromising zealots, I care not.
[Maybe this is why Devs don't read these forums...there's no reason or compromise to be had here.]

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Imagine a set of workers goes on strike, say, the postal service, fire service, police and ambulance drivers. They want to get a 10% pay rise because of inflation. After all of this back and forth, you have said 'Parent company, if you see this, don't give them a dime. They don't want to compromise.' The workers (in this case, me and others like me on this forum) have been asking 'ok maybe we can't get 10% all at once, how about 5% now, and 5% again next year?' or 'ok what about 2.5% increase per year for 4 years' or even 'ok we can't get the full 10% ever, what about if we get 7% and we tighten our belts to make up the other 3% to keep up with inflation?'

And your solution is 'no keep their pay exactly the same, they don't want to compromise' because your idea of 'compromise' is 'keep everything the same'. At least, for one healer. Which I guess would be like if the postal service, fire service, police and idk ambulance drivers all went on strike, and the last 3 got settlements they could agree to, but the posties got told to pound sand.

And as the kids say, 'aight bet', change them and watch as this prediction of the apocalypse turns out to be... just like every other prediction of the apocalypse we've seen come and go so far in human history. You once again underestimate the resilience the casual players have to 'complexity', or at least how easily they are able to ignore the extra complexity until their skill grows to the point where they can handle it. You might quit because of this change, the casuals will not notice. All this 'we must protect the causals' is projection.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tigore

Hmm, when I do look at ForsakenRoe's idea, Renathras, that one might still fit the bill of still keeping WHM almost as simple as it started here. It pretty much just has 4 new buttons to press with 2 lily spells and the Blessing to button morph to Druid-like element spells. The 2 lily spells I believe are similar to your proposed idea on giving a damage reduction or Regen lily. In this case, it was used to bring back Stoneskin for a small shield. It is slightly lower than the heal amount of Solace, but it will likely feel like a better choice with our over geared situation now. Well, without the wasted feeling of just randomly using Rapture after an encounter is done. The buttons morphs change Dia, Glare and the returning cooldown Fluid Aura / Banish. So it kind of borrows from what the SMN spells do. A different spell, but the same key pressing for similar functions.

The Fluid Aura probably could be forgotten in a rotation occasionally and it would still be okay since it is just a DPS boost for content that has no enrage for most of it. The new lily spells more pertain to over gearing scenarios and the new players could still continue to use Solace and Rapture as better options when everyone is freshly geared. Forgetting the new Blessing spell would slightly sink the performance of how well the person can heal and hold mana. Not sure by how much since it would be a new spell to adjust.

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None of that detail matters to Ren because I suggested that Dia have a 12s CD, and Ren hates DOTs

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Originally Posted by AmiableApkallu

As a casual healer, I have to say: I'm deeply insulted by how little you think I'm capable of.

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Oh precious baby we must protect you from the potential of accidentally pressing the wrong damage button and causing a wipe in Lapis Manalis, content infamous for having absolutely no enrage timer at all! The mere possibility that you might make a suboptimal decision from GCD to GCD must keep you awake with night terrors

Sarcasm, of course, unlike some in this forum I trust casual healers to have the potential to learn, grow, and improve. Once upon a time, a friend of mine got into healing because in the FC group that we had at the time, I was the only one who was healing, and we constantly had to get a pug to fill the healer slot (Creator). They eventually got enough confidence, presumably from me, to coheal with me. Recently they cleared TEA with her static, putting her Ult clear count at the same as mine (I'm lazy, not tried DSR or TOP yet, OSRS addiction atm) and I can confidently say they're a better healer than I am. When I think back to what they were like first stepping into Savage, as a scared BRD terrified of dropping the scrap pile in the wrong place etc, and how far they have grown as a player in that time, obviously I feel happy about being part of that, but I also think now: If they can do it, and I could do it before them, why is there this idea that other people can't do it? Is it because me and my friend started healing in HW, that we are somehow built different? That EW players just aren't 'built right' to survive the concept of 'complexity in job design'?

In a game who's main story focus is about 'surpassing your limits', a certain someone sure is keen to insist that 'no, the casuals will not be able to surpass THEIR limits, it will be too much for them', without even knowing what the casual's limits even are. I think it speaks volumes about that person's own limits, and they want to project their failings onto others because they don't want to be the only one who's held back by their own lack of self-confidence, or their fear of failure that prevents them from trying, failing and learning as the rest of us do

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Originally Posted by AnotherPerson

No, it really IS...

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No, it isn't.

God DAMN but you guys try REALLY hard to insult people you don't like.

.

The point is simple:

It's important to me and it's important to you/Ty.

Want to know what's petty? Oh, that's easy - Why is it important to you? Oh RIGHT: So that people who don't do it will forever be INFERIOR TO YOU.

THAT is what is petty.

.

The reason it's important to me is so everyone can participate at the same level, something you all are desperate to avoid. I noted a few months ago what you guys don't want to admit. The reason for these changes isn't so you "won't be bored", it's so others won't output the same level of damage as you. That's it. That's ALWAYS been it. If it was merely about boredom, you wouldn't demand every Healer Job be changed, nor would you insist that any non-change variation be gimped to do less damage.

The goal has ever been so you can flex on people not doing what you're doing, something you feel you can't do - or can't do enough - now. THAT is what is petty. THAT is what is trolly. THAT is what is toxic.

.

I refuse to accept this idea that a thing can only be important to the people wanting change and that it either (a) can't be important to the people opposing it OR (b) if it is important to the people opposing it, it's only because they're being contrarian.

That's a stupid way to try and curtail opposing opinions, and I got tired of standing for it WELL before now. I'm not about to relent on that stance. If something is important enough to you to fight over, CLEARLY it is important, and important to me, too. NOT just because it is to you, but because it is to me for my own reasons. Note that none of you are asking yourselves "Why is this important to us?"; only _I_ get asked that question.

And we all know the answer: Because you need to be able to flex on other people as part of how you define your self-worth, and you must be able to do it on every Job in the game.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

I also clearly remember WHM somewhat frequently getting excluded in PF for Extreme and Savage content.

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Due to the same reason as SB: SCH and AST had more party utility. As much as people say utility doesn't matter, party buffs are clearly the deciding factor in otherwise level playing fields, and always will be.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

I don't remember seeing an exodus of healers though and I highly doubt that cleric was removed specifically for that reason.

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I do. By late HW, Healer ques were faster than Tank ques for casual content.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

I don't think you're far off though, just cut out everything after the bit where people were cussing each other out over the thing. My suspicion is that it got removed because it was so divisive and it was directly at odds with the casual centric direction Yoshida wanted to head in.

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It was both. But yes, Yoshi P wants a more casual direction, which we can clearly see is still true now; even more true, actually.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GrimGale

"I only care about it to be a contrarian." is a dangerously shitpost/trollish thing to admit.

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Good thing that's not what I said, then.

Though I must admire your collective devotion to "Insult Ren no matter what".

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Originally Posted by Osmond

Everyone is emotional and pretty much forced to look at people in a cautious manor cause you don't know lol...

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It's sad that it's gotten to that point, isn't it? Where people are so intolerant to ideas they disagree with that it makes them intolerant to the people who hold those ideas by proxy.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tigore

...

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It honestly depends on how you look at it, but note that 4 new attack buttons is almost 100% more (doubling) what we have now. Moreover, the buttons also (and existing ones) are changed to have far shorter durations, meaning you're hitting them far more often. Dia is slashed to just over 1/3rd. Fluid Aura is just over 1/3rd as often as Assize. You have an entirely new gauge mechanic and burst cycle optimization.

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

Are you just throwing darts at the wall of 'responses to discredit opponent on online forum' now?

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No, that's half the people on your side targeted at me. In case it had escaped your notice.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

I do. By late HW, Healer ques were faster than Tank ques for casual content.

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https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post6223174

Didn't we already debunk this? Here's my sources, please cite yours thanks. Talking about citing sources.....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Renathras

It was both. But yes, Yoshi P wants a more casual direction, which we can clearly see is still true now; even more true, actually.

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'It was both?' Well thank you for clarifying Yoshida's direction for me. I'm glad I chose to leave this thread in your all seeing and all capable hands. Ps can you remind me what I had for dinner yesterday? I'm at a loss what to cook today but I don't want to dupeday it. Cheers.

*edit*

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Renathras

It's sad that it's gotten to that point, isn't it? Where people are so intolerant to ideas they disagree with that it makes them intolerant to the people who hold those ideas by proxy.

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Also lol

Are you actually losing control as you type? Go sit in the garden for 10 minutes then come back and realise how ironic this is coming from you as of late. You literally turned tail on your very own Thundercloud suggestion after I whole heartedly agreed with it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Renathras

The reason it's important to me is so everyone can participate at the same level, something you all are desperate to avoid. I noted a few months ago what you guys don't want to admit. The reason for these changes isn't so you "won't be bored", it's so others won't output the same level of damage as you. That's it. That's ALWAYS been it. If it was merely about boredom, you wouldn't demand every Healer Job be changed, nor would you insist that any non-change variation be gimped to do less damage.

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Seriously, get a grip sir

*edit2*

Also, feelsrelevantman

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Originally Posted by Renathras

Very strange, considering I have no dislike of raiders to show.

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;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Renathras

No, it isn't.

God DAMN but you guys try REALLY hard to insult people you don't like.

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That's you my guy. You are the one constantly insulting everyone else, and then pops a blood vessel anytime someone tries to call you out on it. Would you like to speak with the manager?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

That's you my guy. You are the one constantly insulting everyone else, and then pops a blood vessel anytime someone tries to call you out on it. Would you like to speak with the manager?

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When one of the most patient people on the forums has come to the brink of calling you out as a Karen, perhaps it's time to go out and touch some grass.

On a more serious note, what relevant utility did SCH bring to a Skip Soar Zurvan PF that WHM couldn't?

Shields? Didn't need them. DPS? You didn't even need DPS jobs to skip soar.. MP? Zurvan had long enough intermissions that it wasn't really a problematic fight for WHM back then.

No, the reason why some Zurvan PFs blocked WHM was because they saw the problems the job was specifically having with MP in A12S and how outspoken the raid community was about it and came to the conclusion that WHM must be DOA for Extremes as well.

Lmao, really? Last few pages has been a rollercoaster of comedy.

But anyway...

Just wanna add an anecdote that I've been, and still experiencing at the moment of writing this. I've been accompanying a group 5 irl friends through their Free Trial experience since around 2 months ago. A couple of them have at least 350 hours of gameplay at this point and together with the rest are testing out other roles outside their first chosen main job. From the start, none of them picked healer as they were under an assumption I'm always being one and they did not need one so long I'm around. But eventually two of them decides to finally give the green role a dip just in case I wasn't around.

On my own part: I've been only accompanying them since their starting days. I have not spoiled any dungeon mechanic, I have not given them any pointer at all. I wanted them to enjoy their first timer experience to its fullest and wanted them to form their own opinion. I'm only answering when they specifically ask for something & job gameplay has almost never been amongst their question so far except the newbie dungeon tanking question (thus, unrelated to healing).

They went from "healing is challenging. It's stressful but fun in its own way." to "healing is too relaxing, just spam 1" in just 6 days. Sure, they've only been in some of the easier dungeons and trials. But nearing to the end of heavensward and still having a similar opinion makes me wonder if any of them will ever relish in maining one, at all.

There's another thing I was thinking about for your idea, ForsakenRoe. I think your idea will allow a lot of WHMs to run around and jump because there will be more instant casts.

It goes back to WoW Druids doing that for the same reason. Some spells they use the most are Life bloom, Rejuvenation, Moonfire and Sunfire. For WHM, it would be Regen, the shorter Dia / Aero, Afflatus Bastion / Solace and Afflatus Misery. Renathras said Dia is still worth it on 4 targets currently and cutting the duration to a third may mean the DoT can be 5 - 25% times stronger. This means a 12 - 15s DoT would almost remove Glare in favor of Dia spam with 3 - 4 enemies present.

Edit: changed the buff level for Dia. Since Glare is being cast less, it may need a slight counter buff for a 12 - 15s DoT timer.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

Lmao, really? Last few pages has been a rollercoaster of comedy.

But anyway...

Just wanna add an anecdote that I've been, and still experiencing at the moment of writing this. I've been accompanying a group 5 irl friends through their Free Trial experience since around 2 months ago. A couple of them have at least 350 hours of gameplay at this point and together with the rest are testing out other roles outside their first chosen main job. From the start, none of them picked healer as they were under an assumption I'm always being one and they did not need one so long I'm around. But eventually two of them decides to finally give the green role a dip just in case I wasn't around.

On my own part: I've been only accompanying them since their starting days. I have not spoiled any dungeon mechanic, I have not given them any pointer at all. I wanted them to enjoy their first timer experience to its fullest and wanted them to form their own opinion. I'm only answering when they specifically ask for something & job gameplay has almost never been amongst their question so far except the newbie dungeon tanking question (thus, unrelated to healing).

They went from "healing is challenging. It's stressful but fun in its own way." to "healing is too relaxing, just spam 1" in just 6 days. Sure, they've only been in some of the easier dungeons and trials. But nearing to the end of heavensward and still having a similar opinion makes me wonder if any of them will ever relish in maining one, at all.

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I just tell people not to even bother with healers if they're new. I bring up the role quests and to just level arcanist up on the side if they're interested in those stories, and that kills 2 birds with 1 stone, but other than that, there's no reason to play as a healer.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

I just tell people not to even bother with healers if they're new. I bring up the role quests and to just level arcanist up on the side if they're interested in those stories, and that kills 2 birds with 1 stone, but other than that, there's no reason to play as a healer.

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Honestly? It was tempting to do just that, for I'm just another jaded healer.

But I realized that at some point, I was in their shoes too (everything was 'new' and a lot of wow-first timer factors distracting me) however long that was & I have not the right to tell them what to do or like. I don't want to ruin that for them, henceforth sticking to not commenting anything unless questioned for my opinion seems only right.

If they end up loving it to the point of maining it, then good for them. If not, then I can't say I'll be surprised.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

Honestly? It was tempting to do just that, for I'm just another jaded healer.

But I realized that at some point, I was in their shoes too (everything was 'new' and a lot of wow-first timer factors distracting me) however long that was & I have not the right to tell them what to do or like. I don't want to ruin that for them, henceforth sticking to not commenting anything unless questioned for my opinion seems only right.

If they end up loving it to the point of maining it, then good for them. If not, then I can't say I'll be surprised.

---

To be more clear, I don't hammer it on people. Basically, I just say things along the lines of "The healers have been in a rough spot for a long time now and get pretty stale after a while. I recommend checking out Red Mage at level 50. A lot of people feel like it's one of the most fun jobs right now." It also helps that Red Mage just looks a lot cooler than the healers for most people I talk to.

I’m still of the opinion that healers are at their best when the game is still fresh to the player, the people around you are likely undergeared and you haven’t worked out just how little healing is actually needed to get people through most stuff. For all the issues with healing in this game, bumbling through levelling dungeons blind is still a highlight imo.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Renathras

The reason it's important to me is so everyone can participate at the same level, something you all are desperate to avoid. I noted a few months ago what you guys don't want to admit. The reason for these changes isn't so you "won't be bored", it's so others won't output the same level of damage as you. That's it. That's ALWAYS been it. If it was merely about boredom, you wouldn't demand every Healer Job be changed, nor would you insist that any non-change variation be gimped to do less damage.

The goal has ever been so you can flex on people not doing what you're doing, something you feel you can't do - or can't do enough - now. THAT is what is petty. THAT is what is trolly. THAT is what is toxic.
.
.
.
And we all know the answer: Because you need to be able to flex on other people as part of how you define your self-worth, and you must be able to do it on every Job in the game.

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Remember when I said that Ren's entire goal here wasn't to keep a low skill floor, but explicitly to ensure that one job doesn't have a ceiling? Because Sylphies are always about both utterly refusing to improve at their jobs (which is fine by itself), while also demanding that their level of performance be declared mastery?

And then the next argument is "bro it's just a video game why are you so obsessed with gaining skill at a video game I play to *relax* which is the only well-adjusted way to play. Anyway pancake the skill ceiling down, I'm not jealous of people who play more skillfully than I do or anything".

It's always the same.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Renathras

The reason it's important to me is so everyone can participate at the same level, something you all are desperate to avoid. I noted a few months ago what you guys don't want to admit. The reason for these changes isn't so you "won't be bored", it's so others won't output the same level of damage as you. That's it. That's ALWAYS been it. If it was merely about boredom, you wouldn't demand every Healer Job be changed, nor would you insist that any non-change variation be gimped to do less damage.

The goal has ever been so you can flex on people not doing what you're doing, something you feel you can't do - or can't do enough - now. THAT is what is petty. THAT is what is trolly. THAT is what is toxic.

---

If I wanted to do that I'd play AST and SCH because they provide more RDPS. You wanna know why I don't play AST so much anymore? Because it makes my hands hurt, to do that bastard opener over and over in prog, wiping because the game's current over-reliance on 'the burst window' means that the RDPS variance is absolutely insane, and then having to do the damn opener again. I played it for P4S prog for a while and my hands hurt for literal days afterwards. I ended up clearing on WHM because, even in it's 'trash' state (aka, it works if it has a bit of piety which, surprise, the crafted set has tons of), at least it wasn't causing me physical pain.

As for SCH, I'm just more a fan of SGE's aesthetics. That and the fairy clunk/response time has always bothered me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Renathras

It honestly depends on how you look at it, but note that 4 new attack buttons is almost 100% more (doubling) what we have now. Moreover, the buttons also (and existing ones) are changed to have far shorter durations, meaning you're hitting them far more often. Dia is slashed to just over 1/3rd. Fluid Aura is just over 1/3rd as often as Assize. You have an entirely new gauge mechanic and burst cycle optimization.

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I know how I worded it in the pitch but guys... It's not 'Fluid Aura' it's Water, and later Banish, come on =(

Also just because I added 'new buttons' does not mean it's somehow strenuous just based on that, as I have made sure to make those 'new buttons' be 'old buttons that contextually transform'. You don't have an issue with Inner Chaos, surely? Would it be an issue if I had made a 15 button cycling rotation, but every button automatically swaps to the next one in the sequence, and are all bound to one button as with MNK in PVP? I think there's a massive difference in gameplay feel between 'increasing the number of actions' and 'increasing the number of keybinds'.

And the potency difference between 'putting the empowered skills in burst' and 'not' is purposely kept low, for the sake of trying to avoid that problem, the problem Misery caused. If you want to dump Quake, Tornado, Flood inside of raidbuffs, doing so would take you 3 GCDs to get 'all of the bonus' in, and it'd equal one Glare of bonus. Contrast that to Misery, which is one GCD that is worth 4 Glares.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

No, the reason why some Zurvan PFs blocked WHM was because they saw the problems the job was specifically having with MP in A12S and how outspoken the raid community was about it and came to the conclusion that WHM must be DOA for Extremes as well.

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People be dumb sometimes. I got a guy in week 1 prog of P8S saying SGE is dead, complete trash, shit job for shit players etc because 'it does trash damage'. I looked up the difference in damage on the forbidden site to compare and contrast. At 99th, the difference was 60 dps. Sixty. The 'metaslaving' brainrot has destroyed any rational thought in some people, and all they can do is parrot the same tired old rubbish about X class is trash because someone else said it was bad.

People cleared week 1 on MCH. If that job can clear week 1, in A: the 'trash damage' state it was in, and B: pre-nerf', there's no excuse for these 'we need meta or we can't clear' players. People cleared week 1 of P4S as WHM when it's MP economy was dog. Back in the old days, the classic 'DRK is bad' in SB, leading into world first in both ultimates. 'WHM is bad' leading to it being world first in both ultimates. Saw it in WOW too, people saying that they 'need' a DK for Dathea to gather the adds. No, you don't 'need' a DK, you can gather them by just using silences correctly, but that requires a modicum of skill, so of course they'd rather do the easymode way.

The meta is meta for a reason, but most people don't play at a level where the meta actually makes the difference, and I wish they'd realize that. I'm never going to be at the point where it affects me, because I don't logrun or speedrun. What DOES affect me though, is when some plonker hears on reddit that 'WHM is trash omegalul' and just takes it as fact

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

Remember when I said that Ren's entire goal here wasn't to keep a low skill floor, but explicitly to ensure that one job doesn't have a ceiling? Because Sylphies are always about both utterly refusing to improve at their jobs (which is fine by itself), while also demanding that their level of performance be declared mastery?

And then the next argument is "bro it's just a video game why are you so obsessed with gaining skill at a video game I play to *relax* which is the only well-adjusted way to play. Anyway pancake the skill ceiling down, I'm not jealous of people who play more skillfully than I do or anything".

It's always the same.

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Ah, the old "I've been exposed! Quick, attack someone!!!"

My entire goal?

What IS my goal, Semi?

You tell me what it is, then I'll tell you what it actually is.

And who's the Sylphie? I'm not by definition since I cast damage spells. Maybe stuff your petty insults - for once.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

Ah, the old "I've been exposed! Quick, attack someone!!!"

My entire goal?

What IS my goal, Semi?

You tell me what it is, then I'll tell you what it actually is.

And who's the Sylphie? I'm not by definition since I cast damage spells. Maybe stuff your petty insults - for once.

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I agree, "Sylphie" is not an accurate term. "Vauthry" is the better character example.