It's time to revaluate paper crown battlementors

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

There is absolutely nothing about clearing 50 current Savages that means someone possesses the empathy and patience required to assist others properly with their questions and issues in a helpful and non-judgmental way.

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If anything having savage experience might make you a worse mentor because at that level you:

1) Expect people to know their jobs inside and out
2) Expect people to be able to do research on their own.
3) Are very adverse to mistakes and have no problem kicking people for those mistakes.

Those things are very different than trying to teach people things.

ppl ahould always rely on themselves, do self learnings instead of seeking mentor's guidance.
and i really cant see how this mentor system is bad to sprouts.
so many post about it and i always feel that they are exaggerated .

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Originally Posted by Bookie

ppl ahould always rely on themselves, do self learnings instead of seeking mentor's guidance.

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Should, but a lot of people just want to play the game instead of googling everything. I've been told by sprouts that the answers on google are confusing, conflicting or outdated and it's simpler to have an experienced player tell them.

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

On my current server we have a mentor with PVE status who occasionally tells sprouts that AoE attacks are inefficient, and that pulling multiple packs is a bad thing. When other mentors try to intervene and shut him down, sprouts seem to struggle to figure out who they should actually trust. This person, and many others like him, would not have access to the PVE mentor status with a more exclusive requirement. Personally, I've always felt that requiring a single completion of the previous tier of Savage would be enough of a filter.

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That's unfortunate, but I do remember the quality of pve mentors going down a lot shortly before they increased the commendation requirement. Some extremely casual players who didn't know anything started to qualify based on how long the game has been around. The mentors with ! icons were the ones giving questionable advice, so it would probably help to increase the requirements more as well. I would not mind if they were quadrupled (6000 commendations, 4 tanks, 4 healers, 4 DPS, 4000 duties).

I can see how putting a requirement for some recent savage content might help prevent that situation, but I don't like the idea of saying a mentor specifically has to do savage regularly because they might not have time anymore. But having at least stepped foot into extreme or savage in the past helps them to explain how it's different.

That person seems like an outlier where most mentors, even if they don't pull multiple packs, wouldn't be quite so arrogant about telling all new players to single target. It's frustrating but they might just have to be corrected regularly. Needing to do savage would be likely to filter out these mindsets but it's not guaranteed because doing mostly single-target fights isn't going to teach them much about multi-target content like dungeons. They obviously know that other people think aoe and big pulls are better, they are just sticking to their guns.

Has someone tried putting the maths in front of them with 120 potency x3 against 3 single target GCDs?

I don't know if being a raider should auto-qualify a player for mentor status either. Maybe it could be used in exchange for the "brownie points" (commendations for those following). Possibly lower comms to 500 if you've cleared the latest tier X times.

Keep in mind that there are lots of mentor-quality players that are excluded from the Novice Network because they are too new (they haven't had time to accrue 1500 comms). And there are also mentor-quality players out there that simply don't want to join Novice Network anyway.

Honestly, I think the discussion is biased depending on the players' perception and experience of Novice Network. Those that find NN to be a waste of time would probably fall into the category of "just do away with it." Whereas those that either gleaned something from it as a New Adventurer or Returning Adventurer would probably like to see it continue. Speaking for my own server, I think the NN is a great addition to the game. I've known many players that essentially expired from NN because they advanced too far along in MSQ or hit the hour cap and leave the channel with sadness. I've been around long enough to see some of those players earn their way back as a mentor after a long period of time... and they've given back ten-fold to our NN community.

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Originally Posted by Bookie

ppl ahould always rely on themselves, do self learnings instead of seeking mentor's guidance.
and i really cant see how this mentor system is bad to sprouts.
so many post about it and i always feel that they are exaggerated .

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Exactly.
This game its probably the easiest one in the market right now since every aspect of it got hard nerfed to the point that doesn't even matter what job do you play.

You don't need to learn anything special besides basic knowledge management about how to click on things or navigate on the menus. Everything in this game its served in gold plate and the whole system from ARR to the end of EW will be the same.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

Should, but a lot of people just want to play the game instead of googling everything. I've been told by sprouts that the answers on google are confusing, conflicting or outdated and it's simpler to have an experienced player tell them.

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if your answer to every new player is "just google them"
You don't have a community.
You have an automated customer service bot.

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Originally Posted by Bookie

ppl ahould always rely on themselves, do self learnings instead of seeking mentor's guidance.
and i really cant see how this mentor system is bad to sprouts.
so many post about it and i always feel that they are exaggerated .

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Not everyone is capable of self-learning. That's why we have schools - so those trying to learn have someone to help them.

Just from my own experience, I know not all the posts are exaggerations but because people have a tendency to focus on negatives it may make it seem like only problems exist. Certainly there are good mentors out there but as the saying goes it only takes one bad apple to ruin the bunch. Because the system does not adequately remove the bad apples, players get to the point they tend to avoid all of them.

That why many want to see the system reworked to remove what draws the bad apples in - the rewards.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

Should, but a lot of people just want to play the game instead of googling everything. I've been told by sprouts that the answers on google are confusing, conflicting or outdated and it's simpler to have an experienced player tell them.

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If a player is in the type of content where they can't comprehend semi-complex or complex mechanics then they probably shouldn't be there.

Seeing vs reading is a difference and people do learn differently but being able to read or see it via google / youtube is an important baseline.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

If a player is in the type of content where they can't comprehend semi-complex or complex mechanics then they probably shouldn't be there.

Seeing vs reading is a difference and people do learn differently but being able to read or see it via google / youtube is an important baseline.

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This mostly isn't about watching guides for dungeons, but for understanding basic things like how to repair. There are a lot of questions that if they search google there either isn't an answer because of other topics coming up for the same keywords or it's conflicting or outdated. I have seen a lot of people say "sprouts should just use google instead of the novice network" but that just isn't how everyone is going to approach the game and those that do still benefit from talking to other players.

if their all bad remove them but if this is all hate speech keep it just the way it is and remove the bad apples and keep the good ones.

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Originally Posted by Themarvin

getting rid of the mount for mentor roulette would be a good start or let it require 5000 commendations as well, would be a good start especially to put in an actual effort.

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Commendations are literally just dependent on how long you've been playing the game. Play tank or healer and you'll get them in a decent enough rate. I've had people who proudly claimed that they've "Played since 2.X" or "Played since ARR Beta" or "Played since ARR Alpha" or "Played 1.X" or "Played this before it was actually an MMO" or somestuff and they were garbage players.

No checkboxes are going to be able to determine whether a person not only knows enough to answer questions but is someone who knows how to teach.

It took me years to become a battle mentor. I don’t do savage. And I help only after a wipe if ppl ask. I will never get the mount cause I don’t have the dungeons needed

5000 comms as a requirement would leave extremely few people as mentors. I'd qualify, and a handful of other mentors I know that have been playing since 2.0 would, but it would immediately cut out a lot of helpful and kind people as well.

I've always been in favor of changing the crown to a watering can. I hide my crown anyway (doesn't stop me from helping people) and it'd be in the spirit of what a mentor is supposed to do, anyway.

Maybe change the watering can to a crown automatically once you hit 5000 coms and all 90s and clearing at least the first savage in a tier. Mentor status and roulette being available at the current requirements, but with the watering can icon, and then reserving the crown icon for the "super mentors" that actually hammer at the content.

I don't think the mentor system will change anytime soon, you know why? Because it actually works in Japan servers. So that raises the question, is the system really bad? or the NA community general behavior requires a change?

Again, Japan is doing good with the system, so it seems is an attitude problem from our side

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Originally Posted by Chekopacheko

I don't think the mentor system will change anytime soon, you know why? Because it actually works in Japan servers. So that raises the question, is the system really bad? or the NA community general behavior requires a change?

Again, Japan is doing good with the system, so it seems is an attitude problem from our side

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Imho cultural differences isn't something they took account when designing the whole system.

Crazy thing is, it does work in some servers in the US. Not all the time. If things go too well for too long one of the trolls will wander in and cause trouble....

... lets say it works as well as these forums, but a bit faster.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

Imho cultural differences isn't something they took account when designing the whole system.

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They don't even take it into account with the "rules clarification", there's places in the EU where the suggested lines are downright fighting words level of insult. They take "passive aggressive" as the direct threat it is.

5000 commendations would be completely unreasonable haha I've been playing since Heavensward almost exclusively as a dps main and I have a bit over 3000. I think I personally only know 1 person with close to 5k and they've been playing since ARR.

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Originally Posted by AmiableApkallu

Actually, I just had a thought: You could make the current Hall of the Novice series required before Sastasha. Then, add a second series, as part of the Crystal Braves story. "Test this new training hall and make sure it's up to scratch for our new recruits," or something. Party-based combat is a lot less abstract at Lv.50 than it is at Lv.16, so that hopefully puts trainings and tutorials in a better context.

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I've mentioned this before, but one thing I really did think was neat about The Secret World (back in its original, pre-reboot incarnation) was that in order to get access to Nightmare content (TSW's equivalent of Savage) you needed to pass a test given by an NPC literally called the Gatekeeper. There was a test specific to tanks, a test specific to DPS, and a test specific to healers.

(As I recall, the healer test was basically the Gatekeeper creating a party of NPCs who were more or less the worst possible party. These idiots would constantly stand in the bad to greed, fail to do mechanics and take avoidable damage, etc., and you had to keep these suicidal lemmings alive while still doing a bit of damage because they weren't enough on their own to meet the DPS check of the test.)

While I don't think we need literal gatekeeping on access to content, I do think having a more advanced set of trials a'la the Gatekeeper's tests -- or even akin to the Masked Carnivale for BLU -- where you need to achieve certain things to clear... well, it would be a nice tool for folks to have, to let them work on things without the pressure of being in a party with actual PCs.

And you could definitely use it to cover a few things the game largely fails to mention, both mechanically (explaining why overhealing is a waste, showing that Arm's Length can be a mitigation CD in trash pulls, explaining where Addle/Feint/Reprisal are useful, etc.) and in terms of actual execution (like the fact that debuffs with a white bar at the top can be cleansed via Esuna).

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Originally Posted by Packetdancer

you needed to pass a test given by an NPC literally called the Gatekeeper. There was a test specific to tanks, a test specific to DPS, and a test specific to healers.

(As I recall, the healer test was basically the Gatekeeper creating a party of NPCs who were more or less the worst possible party. These idiots would constantly stand in the bad to greed, fail to do mechanics and take avoidable damage, etc., and you had to keep these suicidal lemmings alive while still doing a bit of damage because they weren't enough on their own to meet the DPS check of the test.)
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See, if I could replace every single "completion required" in the party finder with a "gatekeeper required" I'd be happy (or have both, both is good).

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Originally Posted by Packetdancer

I've mentioned this before, but one thing I really did think was neat about The Secret World (back in its original, pre-reboot incarnation) was that in order to get access to Nightmare content (TSW's equivalent of Savage) you needed to pass a test given by an NPC literally called the Gatekeeper. There was a test specific to tanks, a test specific to DPS, and a test specific to healers.

(As I recall, the healer test was basically the Gatekeeper creating a party of NPCs who were more or less the worst possible party. These idiots would constantly stand in the bad to greed, fail to do mechanics and take avoidable damage, etc., and you had to keep these suicidal lemmings alive while still doing a bit of damage because they weren't enough on their own to meet the DPS check of the test.)

While I don't think we need literal gatekeeping on access to content, I do think having a more advanced set of trials a'la the Gatekeeper's tests -- or even akin to the Masked Carnivale for BLU -- where you need to achieve certain things to clear... well, it would be a nice tool for folks to have, to let them work on things without the pressure of being in a party with actual PCs.

And you could definitely use it to cover a few things the game largely fails to mention, both mechanically (explaining why overhealing is a waste, showing that Arm's Length can be a mitigation CD in trash pulls, explaining where Addle/Feint/Reprisal are useful, etc.) and in terms of actual execution (like the fact that debuffs with a white bar at the top can be cleansed via Esuna).

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At a basic level require a SSS dummy clear to be required for EX content. If you can't even pass the most minimum DPS check on a simulated EX boss you have no business being there.

It's not a perfect solution, but it's better than the nothing we currently have and it's also currently in game so might as well use it.

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Originally Posted by Packetdancer

I've mentioned this before, but one thing I really did think was neat about The Secret World (back in its original, pre-reboot incarnation) was that in order to get access to Nightmare content (TSW's equivalent of Savage) you needed to pass a test given by an NPC literally called the Gatekeeper. There was a test specific to tanks, a test specific to DPS, and a test specific to healers.

(As I recall, the healer test was basically the Gatekeeper creating a party of NPCs who were more or less the worst possible party. These idiots would constantly stand in the bad to greed, fail to do mechanics and take avoidable damage, etc., and you had to keep these suicidal lemmings alive while still doing a bit of damage because they weren't enough on their own to meet the DPS check of the test.)

While I don't think we need literal gatekeeping on access to content, I do think having a more advanced set of trials a'la the Gatekeeper's tests -- or even akin to the Masked Carnivale for BLU -- where you need to achieve certain things to clear... well, it would be a nice tool for folks to have, to let them work on things without the pressure of being in a party with actual PCs.

And you could definitely use it to cover a few things the game largely fails to mention, both mechanically (explaining why overhealing is a waste, showing that Arm's Length can be a mitigation CD in trash pulls, explaining where Addle/Feint/Reprisal are useful, etc.) and in terms of actual execution (like the fact that debuffs with a white bar at the top can be cleansed via Esuna).

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Oh yeah, the Gatekeeper (gold ass) test was very challenging and very cool, although you only had to do it for one role and the difficulties weren't the same (healer being the easiest and dps the hardest).
It would be nice to have something similar, although I don't know how it could work here.
Also I wouldn't say Nightmare dungeons are the equivalent of our savage, they were much easier than that, extreme level at best. You could complete them first try without too much preparation except knowing the main mechs.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

Imho cultural differences isn't something they took account when designing the whole system.

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so trolling is an NA cuture eh xD

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Originally Posted by hagare

so trolling is an NA cuture eh xD

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Maybe (not)? I never implied so specifically & I do not know the correct answer.

What I can notice from these mentor-related anecdotes is that JP folks tend to be more wary how their actions are taken or seen by their surrounding vs NA folks who tend to be more individualistic. Not saying either side is better than the other. It however makes me wonder if they're building this whole system under assumption that everybody (their model, aka JP folks) would (in general) behave accordingly. In a group of players who cares more how they're perceived, this system would've work just fine. But throw in folks who are individualistic (non-JP folks that does not fit their initial model) in nature: differing opinions can spark conflict more often compared to the former.

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Originally Posted by hagare

so trolling is an NA cuture eh xD

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The culture in NA players isnt trolling, it's to take every possible shortcut to get to the reward they want. Greeding DPS, skipping mechanics, etc. For mentors this means trying to maximize the number of guildhests they get so they can get their mount and never run the roulette again. A lot of mentors will straight up leave any duty that takes longer than normal, and wait out the penalty to try for a guildhest since it's easier. You'd see it all the time in the old castrum and praetorium.

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

The culture in NA players isnt trolling, it's to take every possible shortcut to get to the reward they want. Greeding DPS, skipping mechanics, etc. For mentors this means trying to maximize the number of guildhests they get so they can get their mount and never run the roulette again. A lot of mentors will straight up leave any duty that takes longer than normal, and wait out the penalty to try for a guildhest since it's easier. You'd see it all the time in the old castrum and praetorium.

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ah me me me culture

Let's face it Mentor roulette exists just to fill back log queues to help the queue system. If you can't understand that by this point then there is no helping you. Skill or knowledge literally does not come into it. I'll never understand why so many people get upset with the Mentor crown. If there is someone in your party with a crown then congratulations, you just got a faster queue.

I wouldn't even say remove mentor crown / roulette as it's fine as it is. It helps the queue and sometimes you actually get lucky and get people that know how to press buttons or dodge aoes.

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Originally Posted by Asako

Let's face it Mentor roulette exists just to fill back log queues to help the queue system. If you can't understand that by this point then there is no helping you. Skill or knowledge literally does not come into it. I'll never understand why so many people get upset with the Mentor crown. If there is someone in your party with a crown then congratulations, you just got a faster queue.

I wouldn't even say remove mentor crown / roulette as it's fine as it is. It helps the queue and sometimes you actually get lucky and get people that know how to press buttons or dodge aoes.

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In which case Mentor Roulette can be safely removed from the game since Adventurer in Need is already there to fill queues faster. It's pretty rare that I end up with a mentor in one of my parties unless they were queueing with a sprout for the XP bonus.

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Originally Posted by Asako

I'll never understand why so many people get upset with the Mentor crown.
sometimes you actually get lucky and get people that know how to press buttons or dodge aoes

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You overestimate mentors.

I hate to admit it, but I always dread getting paired up with mentors in duty roulette, since most of the ones I've met have been asocial and/or passive aggressive (not even sparing a "hello" when you greet them). They usually want to get the duty finished asap, not staying behind to answer questions or leave commendations.
Of course, all mentors aren't like this. I'm only speaking from personal experience as a sprout.

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Originally Posted by hagare

ah me me me culture

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On the worst end maybe, but NA also doesn't have a general culture of 3 wipes and we just silently disband. On the better end, we'll stay together to get people through until the bitter end no matter how many wipes it takes. Like Reiner said, not necessarily better or worse. Just different and they may have only designed the system with one mentality in mind.

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Originally Posted by hagare

ah me me me culture

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More like the sink or swim culture.

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Originally Posted by ronibosch

I hate to admit it, but I always dread getting paired up with mentors in duty roulette, since most of the ones I've met have been asocial and/or passive aggressive (not even sparing a "hello" when you greet them). They usually want to get the duty finished asap, not staying behind to answer questions or leave commendations.

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That isn't a mentor thing, it's a veteran player thing. They have seen these duties lots of times and just want to get their roulette or duty done. To them it's easy because they have done it many times and they are just bored. Oh, sprout falling for the usual thing, here's a rescue. Ok duty done, bye.

The reason it seems like mentors do it is because veteran players are often mentors and the crown tells you that they are veteran players, but you will eventually meet veteran players who hide their crown or never picked it up and behave exactly the same way.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

That isn't a mentor thing, it's a veteran player thing. They have seen these duties lots of times and just want to get their roulette or duty done. To them it's easy because they have done it many times and they are just bored. Oh, sprout falling for the usual thing, here's a rescue. Ok duty done, bye.

The reason it seems like mentors do it is because veteran players are often mentors and the crown tells you that they are veteran players, but you will eventually meet veteran players who hide their crown or never picked it up and behave exactly the same way.

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That makes sense. I guess that's what novice network is for, then.

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Originally Posted by Raoabolic

More like the sink or swim culture.

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right, if you don't swim like I say, I'm sinking the ship xD

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

On the worst end maybe, but NA also doesn't have a general culture of 3 wipes and we just silently disband.

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yeah they start pointing fingers and kick people THEN disband instead :p

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Originally Posted by ronibosch

I hate to admit it, but I always dread getting paired up with mentors in duty roulette, since most of the ones I've met have been asocial and/or passive aggressive (not even sparing a "hello" when you greet them). They usually want to get the duty finished asap, not staying behind to answer questions or leave commendations.
Of course, all mentors aren't like this. I'm only speaking from personal experience as a sprout.

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Keep in mind there's likely many mentors that are on console, so not saying hello or being asocial isn't always them being rude. When I used to be on PS4 my bluetooth keyboard would take a moment to turn on when I start typing so I didn't usually have time to say much if anything before the tank sprinted off. Obviously this isn't always the case, but not all console players will have a keyboard/quick access to one in a dungeon.

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Originally Posted by angienessyo

Keep in mind there's likely many mentors that are on console, so not saying hello or being asocial isn't always them being rude. When I used to be on PS4 my bluetooth keyboard would take a moment to turn on when I start typing so I didn't usually have time to say much if anything before the tank sprinted off. Obviously this isn't always the case, but not all console players will have a keyboard/quick access to one in a dungeon.

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True, true. I guess I've been spoiled by my computer's keyboard, as a console player myself. I try to give people the benefit of the doubt. I guess I put a lot of expectations on mentors because of what the title alludes to.
Of course, I'm certain many mentors don't like to offer advice unprompted because they get a lot of backlash as well.
Edit: Sorry if my sentences sound fragmented. I'm typing this out while sleep deprived.

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Originally Posted by ronibosch

I'm certain many mentors don't like to offer advice unprompted because they get a lot of backlash as well.

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Yes, unprompted advice usually comes across rude and, ironically, contributes to the negative perception of mentors. But I've had the same from non-mentors when I was new.

My mindset is to let new players have their fun. To live. To die. To learn. If they want advice they will ask for it. For all I know, they might want a blind run. They might play to be good, but they might just play to have fun or do the story and not care about being optimal.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

Yes, unprompted advice usually comes across rude and, ironically, contributes to the negative perception of mentors. But I've had the same from non-mentors when I was new.

My mindset is to let new players have their fun. To live. To die. To learn. If they want advice they will ask for it. For all I know, they might want a blind run. They might play to be good, but they might just play to have fun or do the story and not care about being optimal.

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That's a wise way to go about things. :)

Unfortunately no matter what a mentor do is gonna be perceived as bad most of the times. I have been called rude and/or yelled at for giving "unsolicited advice", even though we had already wipe twice to the same boss mechanic, so now i rather remain silent unless someone actually ask for help/advice, not ideal but unfortunately that's the way it is :/

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

In which case Mentor Roulette can be safely removed from the game since Adventurer in Need is already there to fill queues faster. It's pretty rare that I end up with a mentor in one of my parties unless they were queueing with a sprout for the XP bonus.

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Wtf that's NOT how adventurer in need works.

Stop spreading out misinformation.