New summoner is unacceptable

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

You're right that they are two different things. One is thrust upon you and another is optional and you can seek it out at your pleasure. What a concept.

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Someone had a gun to your head to make you install the game and choose what job to play?

Is it really that bare-bones now? It looked so cool in the trailer! Cooler than Scholar, that's for sure. And here I was hoping Miasma and Bane would be moved to Scholar. Nope. Apparently instead of curing healer-syndrome, SE is just letting it spread to other jobs.

There's always going to be outcries hating the change. I remember when people were upset when Bowmage were taken away.

There will be an adaptation period where players will shift away or back to Jobs that have changed. This always happens. Complexities of jobs get simplfied as mechanics and attacks get added in. This is all based on feedback that is visible and numbers that are not. Honestly nothing new here.

That said, OP, you're 83? Take a look at the tooltips. You'll be getting more off global to weave in 3 levels. I'll be testing alongside and will have my own impressions. So far, yes, I see the simplification (Execution on it is simple, but the job shows some variance in the 5 different 'modes' it provides. I feel as if it does lack a something in the 80-86 range that would fill in. This may be a case of some abilities being tuned too high in the level scaling again.)

I expect there are eyes on this job above others as it is a major rework. We may see some changes down the line to balance its use, though that will be minor. Typically we'll see some updates spattered through the patches to address truly glaring issues. So yes, for now I wouldn't expect another major rework while they give us time to properly assess.

That said, they're not really focused on how the job preforms as its climbing the ever-growing latter too much beyond "Is it playable" comments at level 90 will likely garner more attention. We'll have to wait a bit to see what the overall impression is like.

(Honestly, I'm beginning to feel like a FFXIV Historian at this rate.)

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Originally Posted by EverQuest

Or I dunno just play another game. The entire player base isn't chasing 100s.

Log in perform average collect your loot come back when you have more to do. Seems pretty straightforward and something even Yoshi said was perfectly fine.

There's a ton of straightforward jobs. The entire prang is basically ez pz. Rdm and Blm are pretty chill now. Reaper is pretty chill. Pretty much all the tanks are chillaxation.

Summoner was basically an outliers with it being overly complex. New summoner is about on par with all the other others now. You might argue a few complex jobs are still out but those appear to be getting tuned down over time.

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SMN wasn't "overly complex".
The game just obfuscated the intent of its mechanics up until level 80.
It was about timer alignment, keeping your dots up, making sure you didn't overcap or otherwise waste resources, and trying to ensure you managed those resources well enough to be able to go into bahamut phase with 4 stacks of ruin 4.
You could break it down into 3 distinct phases. Resource management, DWT+baha, and phoenix. Relaxed casting to make sure all your ducks are in a row, the payoff for planning well, and a mechanical twist that is simple, relaxing, and novel at the same time.


Any other nuances were from coding issues that STILL PLAGUE the job in 6.0, and are made even worse by the new and profound lack of control we have over our "summons"

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

There's always going to be outcries hating the change. I remember when people were upset when Bowmage were taken away.

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You forgot however that Bowmage was taken away because the people that mained BRD in 2.0 hated hated hated that change. Just like SMN hated Ruinmage and wanted Bahamut over Bahamut's Breath (3.0 DWT). It doesn't take a soothsayer to see what this job is going to be like @ 90 because it was built very simple.

But you're right, SE doesn't have a habit of making major changes in the middle of series cycle so everyone basically stuck with what we got.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

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You always seem to come running to the defense of these change and I"m curious, what level is your Summoner now?

I'm enjoying the aesthetic part of it, but the rotation seems pretty boring. There are already jobs that are very straight-forward and simple, I don't get why every job must follow this path and people can't have options. Everyone talks about "hey, play another job" but people have mained this class for years... why don't YOU play another job instead of pointing fingers at people that enjoyed this class for years and wanting every single class to appeal to YOUR play style?
The remake really gutted the job for those that enjoyed it and only wanted it to be better, not something else entirely, without even fixing the problems that the class used to have. It's understandable that these people wouldn't like it and acting like THEY should switch jobs now, given that those were probably their mains is borderline rude.

Also, the whole talk about something needing to be easier... You could clear the easy/mandatory content without even knowing how to utilize summoner's kit or any other complex kit already, I don't get why something has to be even more accessible than this? Some people having fun at mastering their classes, not only specific fights. This game, understandable, doesn't have enough brand-new fights for you to spend your time with, at some point optimizing the way you play turns into content as well.

My biggest gripe is that I actually don't feel that I have any decision-making so far into my rotation, the pet ai is horrible (this was actually what I was looking forward to getting fixed the most), and the sprites are nice, but also I hardly feel like a summoner either. I feel that a class that has a carby on steroids and that just keep pressing buttons without really thinking and that's it. The aetherflow/energy drain mechanic seems really out of place, and at level 80 the job is weird... like I'm missing something inside my rotation. It's hard to describe the feeling tbh, but it doesn't sit well. IMO, although fun at first, because it's flashy, it seems that it'll get repetitive quickly.

My condolences for smn mains.

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Originally Posted by Roda

SMN wasn't "overly complex".
The game just obfuscated the intent of its mechanics up until level 80.
It was about timer alignment, keeping your dots up, making sure you didn't overcap or otherwise waste resources, and trying to ensure you managed those resources well enough to be able to go into bahamut phase with 4 stacks of ruin 4.
You could break it down into 3 distinct phases. Resource management, DWT+baha, and phoenix. Relaxed casting to make sure all your ducks are in a row, the payoff for planning well, and a mechanical twist that is simple, relaxing, and novel at the same time.


Any other nuances were from coding issues that STILL PLAGUE the job in 6.0, and are made even worse by the new and profound lack of control we have over our "summons"

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You summed up my feelings exactly. They took a job that was fun to play around planning and resource management that was plagued by bugs due to the bad coding on the companion AI and replaced it with a mechanically inferior job that is zero fun to play and that is still plagued by the same companion AI issues to which they arguably added more.

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Originally Posted by EverQuest

Or I dunno just play another game. The entire player base isn't chasing 100s.

Log in perform average collect your loot come back when you have more to do. Seems pretty straightforward and something even Yoshi said was perfectly fine.

There's a ton of straightforward jobs. The entire prang is basically ez pz. Rdm and Blm are pretty chill now. Reaper is pretty chill. Pretty much all the tanks are chillaxation.

Summoner was basically an outliers with it being overly complex. New summoner is about on par with all the other others now. You might argue a few complex jobs are still out but those appear to be getting tuned down over time.

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Wow, every raider surely only logs in to the game just raid. Totally!

Grow up, please. Just because players do the Savage content and Ultimates, doesn't mean they don't do other content as well.
It's only a select portion of the raiders that do the raid logging thing.

It sure is lovely that the one magical class that appealed to me is now a hollow, unfinished mess that it is right now with false promises of being fixed.
"Go play something else", sure. Like what? Oh wait, I just said that this the only magical class that appealed to me! Aethestetically and gameplaywise. Ranged? No thanks. Healers? Nah, boring. Tanks? Only Dark Knight, but I miss being a magical damage dealer.
Melee? Nope, not for me either.

There was only one class I legitimately enjoyed the battle content from and now thanks to this "rework" which I do not even wish to call a rework because it simply isn't complete, there's nothing left.

Another thing, a level 80 class shouldn't be feeling like 60.

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Originally Posted by Roda

SMN wasn't "overly complex".
The game just obfuscated the intent of its mechanics up until level 80.

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Stop there.

Do you hear yourself. You're level 80. Pause a moment. Take a breath. Let's get to 90. I'm fairly certain you'll still have similar complaints - but lets see if your assessment of 'intent of mechanics'. Holds true for 90 as well.

Its sad that it went from most complex of the DPS casters to its easier than RDM now.

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Originally Posted by Wolwosh

Its sad that it went from most complex of the DPS casters to its easier than RDM now.

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Is it really easier than RDM? I can't tell if that's hyperbole? I never played RDM. I was satisfied with SMN the last two expacs.

I'm dusting off the BLM right now. It's been awhile but it has the funs parts I remember but with more mobility then I recall.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

Stop there.

Do you hear yourself. You're level 80. Pause a moment. Take a breath. Let's get to 90. I'm fairly certain you'll still have similar complaints - but lets see if your assessment of 'intent of mechanics'. Holds true for 90 as well.

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The only difference between 80 and 90 is the elemental Astral Flows and the summons changing from egis to the big ones. Slipstream/Mountain Buster/melee combo doesn't magically fix things.

Up to 84 now. Starting to get more strategic with the new quick Carby summons in things like the solo duties. Titan is the most annoying to use so far, because you have to pre place yourself in the mob pack to avoid wasting the big first attack.

I don't hate it. There's still a lot of thinking involved, just less punishment for stuff like lagging and missing the 8th wyrmwave or failing to keep the dots up because you had to dodge thus wasting a Fester. It won't be until I get into Extreme content before I can really see how the new controls work, but so far, I'm okay with what I've played with.

its a good base , but i need more tbh

we have elemental charges but would be cool to have 3-4 spells to choose from instead of 1 until 86 (2 but 1 is st the other AoE so there is no choice)

Well... lvl 80 summoner is really boring compare with the old one.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

Stop there.

Do you hear yourself. You're level 80. Pause a moment. Take a breath. Let's get to 90. I'm fairly certain you'll still have similar complaints - but lets see if your assessment of 'intent of mechanics'. Holds true for 90 as well.

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Ok, 1, can't stop, won't stop.
2, if you want to have a discussion with me, don't talk down to me. I am very aware of what I said. SMN wasn't this 200IQ job, its resource hierarchy just wasn't immediately intuitive, and was further obfuscated by a questionable skill acquisition order. (all critiques I've held since 5.0) But, that being said, it was very easy to, after some time, go full autopilot on the rotation. (Seriously, after the egi assault change, the rotation was hella comfy)
3, being level 90, won't change my experiences on shadowbringers summoner.
And 4, I'm level 86, the forums haven't updated my character yet. I'm saving a full analysis of my experience on new smn when I get to 90, but, like my similar criticisms on shb smn, I shouldn't have to wait until max level for my core mechanics to feel complete.

Let me restate myself simply, my troubles with this revision isn't about "complexity" or "difficulty" of execution or the lack of ogcds, or the lack of dots, or the pet changes (ok, it's a little about that, but not directly), or really even about the spammy nature of it, and it's definitely not just because it's new (as I realized we were due for an overhaul the moment I understood ShB smn's mechanics).
It's just that it feels like there's something fundamental missing. Some mechanic that screams "Summoner" (like dualcast for redmage, or umbral ice/astral fire for blackmage).

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Originally Posted by Rin_Kuroi

Is it really easier than RDM? I can't tell if that's hyperbole? I never played RDM. I was satisfied with SMN the last two expacs.

I'm dusting off the BLM right now. It's been awhile but it has the funs parts I remember but with more mobility then I recall.

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Definitely not hyperbole. I'm leveling both concurrently.

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Originally Posted by Rin_Kuroi

Is it really easier than RDM? I can't tell if that's hyperbole? I never played RDM. I was satisfied with SMN the last two expacs.

I'm dusting off the BLM right now. It's been awhile but it has the funs parts I remember but with more mobility then I recall.

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Yes. Summoner is now by far the easiest and most simple DPS job in the game.

So the OP could've shortened this down to "how dare Squeenix make SMN more useable by filthy casuals!!".

Let's face it, Summoner needed that overhaul. It was a convoluted mess of a rotation with an opener longer than most Broadway plays that required stellar ping and reflexes. The best part is that now that it's had this change, it now has the groundwork to become more complex over time while not needing a master's thesis to explain how to play it properly.

If you want something more complex, try a different job. Or a different game. Either way, I like how Summoner feels, and while it is possibly too simple right now, I'd rather have something too simple than too complicated any day. I think most players would too, and that shouldn't be seen as a bad thing since it's easier for players to make easy things more challenging than for devs to make challenging things easier.

There was no reason for Summoner to be as convoluted as it was. I played SMN as my main job during Shadowbringers and I really prefer how it plays so far in Endwalker.

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Originally Posted by Kazrah

So the OP could've shortened this down to "how dare Squeenix make SMN more useable by filthy casuals!!".

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Every class is useable for casuals though. You can clear every single casual content without ever thinking about your rotation. I have done expert roulette with smn without phoenix-bahamuth (not proud of this hah) and no one ever batted an eye.
And just because you play the game casually doesn't really mean that something having a bit more of room for optimization and actually make your brain think is bad. Personally, I hardly do savage/extreme and I despise this type of narrative.

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Originally Posted by seraf

There was no reason for Summoner to be as convoluted as it was. I played SMN as my main job during Shadowbringers and I really prefer how it plays so far in Endwalker.

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There was also no reason for them to see the convolution and decide to take an axe to the whole thing and make it probably the simplest job in the game.

Summoner was BAD before 6.0.

Now it's fun and enjoyable.

And emerald carbuncle still isn't green!

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Originally Posted by Tanis_Ebonhart

Summoner was BAD before 6.0.

Now it's fun and enjoyable.

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Where are people getting this idea? SMN was the best caster in shadowbringer. I'm saying this as a filthy casual that hasn't stepped foot in savage/ultimate in two expacs.

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Originally Posted by Rin_Kuroi

Where are people getting this idea? SMN was the best caster in shadowbringer. I'm saying this as a filthy casual that hasn't stepped foot in savage/ultimate in two expacs.

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You know what after stewing on this for a day and half and not even bothering to log in today I've come to a conclusion. There is no point in complaining because a) it's been stated they don't even look at the US forums so why bother, b) they aren't going to make any mechanical changes mid-expansion, c) at best we will see numbers tuning sometime within the next year. At this point it's a gangrenous limb that needs to be cut off because all it's doing is festering and poisoning everything else about the game. I'm done with it, I'm deleting the gearset and I'll just have to find another DPS job that is worth playing. If I can work up the motivation to log in some time in the next week.

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Originally Posted by Rin_Kuroi

Where are people getting this idea? SMN was the best caster in shadowbringer. I'm saying this as a filthy casual that hasn't stepped foot in savage/ultimate in two expacs.

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They were not fun to play.

Now they are.

This is all subjective. Just know that summoner clearly was not fine, because they changed it. Not enough people played it and all that. So they listen to feedback and now more people enjoy it.


Does it step on the toes of some of the people who enjoyed that dot play style and liked the old summoner? Sure, but that is the price the company willing to pay to get more people to play the class.

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Originally Posted by Tanis_Ebonhart

They were not fun to play.

Now they are.

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It's way too basic and simple to be any fun now.

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Originally Posted by Issaella

There is no point in complaining because a) it's been stated they don't even look at the US forums so why bother, b) they aren't going to make any mechanical changes mid-expansion, c) at best we will see numbers tuning sometime within the next year.

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I did not know this. What a waste. Good luck to ya.

Been thinking some more, as I do think the current foundation is decent but can see how people who were used to more now feeling like "this is a puddle, especially pre 90" (though may also note some people may want that, just that I respect the potential frustration when a job that you did like which had a famously stacks on stacks on stacks system moving to something so clear). The current system, especially once you consider 90 skills, probably wouldn't drive me crazy even in high-farm settings (on a dummy, and speaking over all of the theme changes I like this one more), but I also don't relish that some people feel lost now and I think we might be able to use the current setup without going back to old problems. And not losing too much of what some people like about it now.

Particularly, again wanting to note that the level 80-90 Summoner skills come with more depth (like new astral flow skills). I think a really nice change for gameplay feeling then would be bringing astral flow skills for the ex-egi much earlier, as that would help add a lot more 'to do' and less press one button which was one complaint. I'm not saying it would suddenly be perfect for all the complaints I see, but I do imagine that is going to help a lot for a lot of players. If you read 80 to 90 skill tooltips (level 86 particularly), or watch if you have difficulty imagining, I think that is something that should be introduced not only at 80 but probably even earlier than that (obviously the level 86 talent can still exist to "take it to the next level" in terms of the visual flare). It looks like a really important component of making the job feel more complete and probably shouldn't be so late, as players will still sync down on occasion.

Just making the astral flow skills come in sooner for egi phases I think would help by "that" much. Especially since each egi phase astral flow behaves differently, which means not only more things to do but each step being more interestingly different- this is a two for one moment.

Something like Bard or Dancer's proc mechanics may also potentially help break up some of the elements people are describing, while adding another nice level of 'primal'. For example you might proc titan, changes fester into Gaol (an interrupt/stun, bosses ignore of course, with fester damage) using this Gaol doesn't trigger Fester's cooldown (so you might have energy drain up but then you proc'd, so you could Gaol, Fester, gemshine gemshine, Gaol, etc). This could be done to painflare too, so you get two choices based on the situation, but like bard you can't use both bloodletter and rain of death on the same proc. Another example Ifrit fester could be the nail (increasing the damage for the remaining ifrit skills, can stack as more nails appear if you're lucky), painflare then is eruption (which does like the fight does and trigger multiple times). Though it's important to make these procs not annoying (so they shouldn't be in the 'way' of using fester/painflare, but a pleasant bonus- which is why in the gaol example it does fester damage, the nail probably should also do that, it's not a strict requirement but keeping them pleasant bonuses is important).

May then consider a skill with charges that 100% procs this effect which may make openers more exciting, but also give you some more control in situations that need it, with a cooldown long enough to not line up with always using the skill on the same primal step. To prevent "always use this on X, the other ones are a waste", long enough doens't mean 'long cooldown' ideally it isn't that long, it just means don't make it always perfectly line up with the same phase such that players use it only that way, too short might mean it has to be weak which is where you want to find the balance of short vs long vs being stuck using it only one way. This idea I think could also branch into the support skills in a really nice way to add big value to the physick skill slot, but that's detailed next (below).

Some more complicated / hazard ideas (not as easy to balance / may be large changes, particularly the last one):

This is more of a personal suggestion but I think I can make it more inline with people wanting some decisions. Which is to make Physick another skill that changes based on situation (seems like such a dead skill, I'd love for it to get some love and I think this is a good way), and in this case is a support slot skill. Give it charges (or use the above proc system). If not using the proc system may consider making it consume attunements (the buffs that allow you to cast certain damage abilities), or some other not frustrating but logically "you're doing this as a choice and not because it's free" (not entirely akin to clemency on Paladin but going towards that). The reason for proc or attunement cost being is it allows the support to be more valuable without messing up balance (there is a cost), which isn't to say all the skills that exist within the slot have to be zero damage.. just that BECAUSE it costs it therefore can be far more interesting than a weak oGCD cure or something. These skills also noting don't always have to be worse than a damage skill as I think that could a lot of depth, especially if you do it in situations where it is okay. Example of support could be Earthen Shield for Titan, granting a shield that can explode dealing damage (in the situation of a trash pack perhaps the end result is more damage and support at the same time, but in a boss fight you'd just mostly be gaining the opportunity to help your tank survive a crazy blow while one of your healers is dead), etc. (Can think of more if that is considered an important thought experiment).

Alternatively if you use the above idea of a proc system (with that extra skill that can manually trigger the proc, with cooldown) that then you can have it such that when you proc your step your physick changes too (and so you lose damage if you pick it but it'll be an oGCD of merit, meaning you have that extra diversity and choice to the job without it having to hugely impact your potential maximal damage). Particularly I think this combo of support skill mutation + the above proc system (and manual trigger skill), would work well in the current scheme and add quite a bit more opportunity to press different keys and make different choices. Especially if some of them have something a bit extra that makes them stand out besides "single target, aoe, support". Using titan as an example you might be in a aoe setting but you have want to use gaol (single target fester morph) anyway because it's a 5 second stun and there is on particular monster who is a huge pain when it uses that one skill you know is coming up (or is already coming up), and the titan painflare proc doesn't have CC but does something else interesting depending on setting.

May also consider moving phoenix rekindle to this then and give the astral flow something else, love the idea of that spell just not sure of it being on Astral Flow. Special note that not each support skill needs to heal. An aside- This is probably borked for balance but perhaps either on rekindle (keeping it as astral flow) or as the new astral flow- casting it on an enemy causing good damage and a middling aoe cure or casting it on an ally giving them auto-raise (on a short timer), dealing minor aoe damage, and healing them, if they don't die during the auto-raise timer they heal again and deal minor aoe damage again.

Another, is group of spells on a slot that bridge beyond themselves- transcending the phase they exist upon (and this could potentially add a lot of depth to the job, or not if they're similar enough, but could at least add more things to do then). Say for example you use Emerald (or ruby) dream (Carby) which causes them to tag everyone nearby with Carbuncle Reflect, granting a small shield that went touched causes attackers to receive minor damage back (more for magic, it's reflect). Each cast made by the summoner during the dream will cause carby to appear and randomly boop a player with the buff refreshing their shield (higher chance to lower hp players). So in this case I say transcend because it goes into the next egi phase (duration lasts long enough that it lasts for two steps, the current and next). You can only have one active, though you could overwrite it (wasting some duration as a consequence). Now each egi (including carby, I guess lol) would have a unique stratagem. Basically adding an affix to all of your actions, this could have absolutely profound impact on your choices especially if you might think it transcends into the demi phase. So you might combine garuda stratagem with phoenix, ifrit with titan, etc. Keeping them more similar might make balance easier but certainly more different would allow for a huge depth of play, though at a higher variety (like ifrit phoenix is quite different than titan phoenix) then how the skill is activated becomes far more important (a simple use and cooldown would make poor mistakes or sudden changes in the playfield far more punishing and certainly make the job not easy to master lol). As an example if you had that carby heal effect on the high ogcd titan phase you'd get different value than if you had it on ifrit phase.

Finally a minor gripe (minor, especially in context to other people's feelings expressed in the thread):

This is just more of an aside of me thinking "poor carby" because it looks like he just kind of lives to be unsummed lol, so it might be a thought to have carby always be out but help you in summoning and do some other things. Like if you summon ifrit the gem on his head goes red, and ifrit appears and does his one off like we see. Maybe sic gives you a slight boost to your DPS as they do their own thing (sort of pre-calculated output of damage, so there is no ghosting issues, the animations of attack actions just being for player sanity lol) and if you put them on guard they'd do things like occasionally heal you or recover some of your mp. Or maybe just making it so they look like they're morphing into your other summons rather than constantly dying (/being unsummoned). It's not important really but it just makes me feel bad for him lol. At a certain point I feel like maybe he can be out if I want him out as being quirk of being a summoner (your choice to have an extra controllable minion essentially), but otherwise he'd not be out and therefore never gets desummoned at each step and will only show up when I use carby spells like in a classic FF setting (using radiant / shield skills would cause carby to appear cast the effect and vanish, if carby is already out per the quirk of being a summoner then it of course uses that instead). Unimportant, just me pitying carby (but that doesn't mean I dislike the new visual system, especially once you hit level 90 as you can see the job hits a whole level of "woah").

I'm leveling Paladin first because it's my OG bae, but I will be, and am looking forward to, leveling Summoner up and I hope we will all get to enjoy the class together.

Just a recap / TL:DR for transparency, I like this new version and I like the cut down on skills via morphs, I think level 86 is going to provide a lot of gameplay value some people are wanting so much so SE might have value bringing a weaker / lite variant earlier, carby seems a bit lost, physick I wish got the morph treatment, suggested a few ideas for those wanting more stuff (but I think astral flow at 86 might be enough, if not I'm a bit partial to the proc idea as it is a mechanic I already like on bard / red mage). Suggestions are not made out of dissatisfaction (minus perhaps physick lol), I am looking forward to getting more into the job.

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Originally Posted by Tanis_Ebonhart

They were not fun to play.

Now they are.

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Originally Posted by Rolder50

There was also no reason for them to see the convolution and decide to take an axe to the whole thing and make it probably the simplest job in the game.

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This is why Summoner will always be a hot mess and debated because literally everyone that plays it wants it to be something different. It's either never Summoner enough or it's too hard to play or it's too easy to play or it was the best in 2.0 and then ruined or whatever else.

I agree , disappointed with new summoner. I remeber another mmo that started simplifying jobs, its not around anymore.

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Originally Posted by Skiros

Like more than half of the opener, the busiest part of your rotation, is just pressing 1 (ruin). The job practically plays itself, with virtually zero room for optimization. There is virtually no fail state either. It's also basically a one-hotbar job.

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People have been complaining about healers being this way for years. I routinely get to press 1 200+ times in a single fight.

Maybe now people will realise how unacceptable this kind of gameplay is in a modern theme park MMO.

If you're only pressing 1 button you aren't even playing the Job properly. Not sure why people are even making this complaint.

You guys are crazy. Summoner is way better now. Anyone who keeps saying "its only 1 button" is spouting pure hyperbole. It's a fraction of a fraction of its old level of complexity...which is the point. The old summoner was simply too complex for most players (and doubly so if you tried to play it on console/with a controller).

As having tried out the changes to SMN, the OP is welcome to their opinion, but its not bad, actually I like it, and if you're only using Ruin III you're playing it wrong, Most of your DPS is now coming from your summons, not Ruin 3.

As with any change people will complain, they won't take the time to read spell description, heck, most people won't read a sign on a door, why would they read something in a game? They won't re-organize their action bars, instead they will come here and complain to see how we respond

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Originally Posted by NyteKitsune

As having tried out the changes to SMN, the OP is welcome to their opinion, but its not bad, actually I like it, and if you're only using Ruin III you're playing it wrong, Most of your DPS is now coming from your summons, not Ruin 3.

As with any change people will complain, they won't take the time to read spell description, heck, most people won't read a sign on a door, why would they read something in a game? They won't re-organize their action bars, instead they will come here and complain to see how we respond

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Has anyone said you're only using Ruin III? You're primarily pressing the Ruin **button** in the opener and the Gemshine **button** thereafter.