"gogogo" might make me quit this game.

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Originally Posted by Roeshel

Go open the loot boxes once the duty is complete and everyone has left. You will get all the loot for yourself.

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If Square Enix intended for loot boxes to be opened at the end of a duty, why did they place them throughout the map? Is this something that Square should change?

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Originally Posted by Roeshel

while also underperforming greatly

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How do you know that a DPS is underperforming?

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Originally Posted by caffe_macchiato

If Square Enix intended for loot boxes to be opened at the end of a duty, why did they place them throughout the map? Is this something that Square should change?


How do you know that a DPS is underperforming?

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They don't, but at the same point the reason people are skipping those chests is because they don't need the gear. It has nothing to do with rushing, it is a straight up 'don't need it so going to ignore it'. As for how do you know, it is really easy to tell. Someone single target dpsing on an aoe pull, SAM not getting their buffs up, BRDs not using songs, or straight up things are dying way too slowly for the gear level that the DPS have.

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Originally Posted by MistakeNot

Boring is good when fighting.

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If we use this logic then that makes the Crystal Tower raids superior to the current NieR raids.

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Originally Posted by caffe_macchiato

How do you know that a DPS is underperforming?

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Their casting bar on the side of the party screen/their skill effects along with the fact there is a timer for the instance on the right side of the screen.

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Originally Posted by caffe_macchiato

How do you know that a DPS is underperforming?

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They read the skills and damage in the battle menu and do the math in real time, obviously.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MistakeNot

A boring fight is a fight where you have done everything right, and thus the enemy don't have a chance. An "exciting" fight means you made a mistake somewhere along the line and thus are living dangerously.
Boring is good when fighting.

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Except it's not. This whole game is based around fighting. If fighting was supposed to be boring, no one in their right mind would play this game. You don't play games to be bored. You play them to be entertained.

It's been a while since I was running Sastasha for the first time, or "healing" my first Praetorium where I got lost halfway with my friend and just felt relief every time I got yanked to the boss room. I got a reminder today when my partner picked up tanking, and soon after did CM and Prae on his main Bard job to cap the levelling ARR story.

He was extremely angsty and uneasy throughout, even though he's no newbie to gaming. He would constantly ask while checking out cutscenes: "people are waiting for me, right? Someone pulled a boss while I was watching once, I try not to watch any of these now". He felt terrible going through Prae - we both managed to get left behind at the magitek armour part because we'd both forgotten our keys; he hated not only the rush, but also the flow the constant unnecessary cutscenes kept breaking. When he tried tanking, he was extremely stressed because he knew people would want him to pull bigger, but since early dungeons are not straight hallways, he needed my help navigating and not "screwing up".

I get that "think of the newbies!" is a cringy sentiment. I also get that in these arguments there's either a professional wall-to-wall pulling in Bardam's Mettle, or a newbie slowed to a careful crawl in Tam-Tara. Nonetheless, it should be not forgotten that subconsciously, this rush will affect someone negatively one way or another. A lot of the people on the forums here tend to forget their first days. Now many of you are clearing Extremes, hard modes, Savages and the like. Surprised that a sprout is getting overwhelmed and can get confused on where to go in a level 15 instance? It happens to this day to people. If you want to root it into everybody that pull big or get vote kicked is the way, give them time. Let them get their kit, their practice with more dungeons, let them emerge from MSQ and stretch their legs.

This obviously isn't supposed to equate to "go slow like you're affected by Heavy 80%" each step of the way, but I can't wait for my post to get twisted to imply that anyway.

Sorry I'm wordy.

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Originally Posted by caffe_macchiato

How do you know that a DPS is underperforming?

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That party list everyone has also acts as a threat measuring tool. If I, as a whm, am at 2 or 3 while a dps is sitting 4th, then that dps is under performing. Everyone has this tool and you can bet as a healer my eyes are always moving towards it judging the 4th place dps causing the mobs to live forever

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Originally Posted by RobynDaBank

snip

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So were they tank or bard? We’re they feeling obligated to skip cutscene in praetorium where they are unskippable? Your little tale is all over the place

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Originally Posted by Kolaina

That party list everyone has also acts as a threat measuring tool. If I as a whm as at 2 or 3 while a dps is sitting 4th, then that dps is under performing. Everyone has this tool and you can get as a healer my eyes are always moving towards it judging the 4th place dps causing the mobs to live forever

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That's not 100% in that scenario, comparing healer threat to dps threat.

Healers with high threat could also indicate overhealing from the healer.

Assuming no deaths, threat is generally reliable in letting you know which dps is doing the highest dps overall in an encounter, the one with the highest threat among all the dps present in the party.

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Originally Posted by Rowde

That's not 100% in that scenario, comparing healer threat to dps threat.

Healers with high threat could also indicate overhealing from the healer.

Assuming no deaths, threat is generally reliable in letting you know which dps is doing the highest dps overall in an encounter, the one with the highest threat among all the dps present in the party.

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Unless I’m spamming cure 3, it is unlikely to pull that much threat vs a dps. I’m aware of my own healing. As others should become aware of their own performance. Whether you find it accurate or not, its a tool thats there to use. If a dps is sitting 4th on that list, it may be time for the dps to question their ability

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Originally Posted by Kolaina

If a dps is sitting 4th on that list, it may be time for the dps to question their ability

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4th out of 4 total players, meaning one DPS is better than the other? Do you see why I say that the attitude of our community has become concerning?

Our community is going through growing pains. It’s understandable that people are disappointed at the slow pace of dungeons. Square Enix did not design older content well for wall-to-wall efficiency, and because humans are naturally competitive, players blame each other rather than the game design. Square Enix needs to mitigate the inherent competitiveness among players which has no place in co-op content. Otherwise the players, who are often guided by subconscious impulses, will turn increasingly hostile and toxic until new players are put off from playing the game.

When it comes to dungeons there is not much to know, even in new ones. You basically just round up all the mobs and hold em as the dps do their thing. There are seldom any mechanics to worry about in a standard pull and idk why ppl think there is. They have dumbed the standard dungeon down so much that all you need to know is your basic rotation, you don't need to actually know mechanics til the boss.

This just makes me super confused. You are going to be hitting the same buttons, doing the same rotations, stepping out of the same aoe puddles with 3 mobs as you do with 6 or 9. It's been like this since the early 2k in mmos, where just rounding up mobs and burning them down was the best way to level.

I am just failing to see why this is so complicated that ppl get upset and refuse to do it or think its somehow ruining their experience. I get it if you are leaving behind ppl watching a cs, that is experience ruining for sure, but rounding up a slightly larger pack does nothing and is no more complicated than rounding up a small one. Knowing your job is leaps and bounds more important than knowing the dungeon at this point and if you just tell your party you are new and don't know or remember boss mechs they are usually going to be much more understanding if you mess up.

Honestly, if you do not have the confidence as a tank to pull 9 mobs instead of 3 and refuse to better yourself you are going to have a very bad time in virtually anything else in the game and should maybe reconsider tanking in general cause it doesn't sound like the right job for you. Is that harsh? Perhaps. But sometimes you need to face reality.

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Originally Posted by caffe_macchiato

4th out of 4 total players, meaning one DPS is better than the other? Do you see why I say that the attitude of our community has become concerning?

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That's not what they're referring to. There's always going to be one dps higher than the other. It's impossible to have them both be 2. The issue is when the healer is higher on that list than a dps, who's sole job is to do damage. That's how you can tell they are under performing.

So to clarify, the example given is comparing the threat of a dps to a healer, not a dps vs a dps.

By all means, enjoy your cutscenes but I am going to keep pulling. Simple as.

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Originally Posted by Xaruko_Nexume

To Fast Snip.

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Honestly this not only goes for you but to others like you, this is how the game goes. The average for a dungeon run is two packs, it's efficient because people have other things in the game or in the day that they don't want to be stuck running a dungeon for 45mins. We have been doing this since 2013.

As for looting, select need if you want or greed if you want because most of us really don't care. The best gear is purchase with tokens. Dungeon gear is either glamour, desynth, or traded at Doma.

Now if you want to look around you can stay there after or do the sightseeing run.

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Originally Posted by MaxCarnage

That's not what they're referring to. There's always going to be one dps higher than the other. It's impossible to have them both be 2. The issue is when the healer is higher on that list than a dps, who's sole job is to do damage. That's how you can tell they are under performing.

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Or maybe the WHM just threw down Medica II. That spell shoots me up to the top of the aggro list in no time. I don't know why you're looking down on other players for not pulling enough threat. If you get the three best DPS in the world in an instance, one of them is going to be at the bottom of the list at some point. The healer is also going to be above all of them in aggro at some time. Healing pulls much more aggro than damage.

We can argue back and forth about 'dungeon etiquette' all we want but, at the end of the day, some people like to go fast, others like to go slow. No one's going to convince the other side that their way is better, because it's all a manner of personal taste. I've yet to see this be a major issue in game as I haven't witnessed a single 'confrontation' between players wanting to either go faster or slower. This leads me to believe I'm either the luckiest player ever or the people making a mountain out of a molehill are the ones instigating problems in their respective groups.

If you want to go fast, then go fast and hopefully the rest of the group follows suit. Same for people wanting to go slow. If you can't handle the pace, drop group, take the penalty and go take a breather. Arguing won't make things go faster/slower, it'll only make the rest of the group quietly resent you for making things awkward.

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Originally Posted by Ronduwil

Or maybe the WHM just threw down Medica II. That spell shoots me up to the top of the aggro list in no time. I don't know why you're looking down on other players for not pulling enough threat. If you get the three best DPS in the world in an instance, one of them is going to be at the bottom of the list at some point. The healer is also going to be above all of them in aggro at some time. Healing pulls much more aggro than damage.

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You try too hard but not hard enough to comprehend what you are replying to. Especially considering the example given was based on my own anecdotal experience as a healer. I’ll tell you right now I refrain from using medica 2 as I have seen too many bad healers spamming it. So medica 2 on a personal level, leaves a sour taste in my mouth. I don’t over heal. In fact I barely have to heal. When I do, I do only enough to get people between 80 % and topped up. I don’t heal unless they drop below 75% ish.
Now, using my own personal experience as a non heal spamming glare mage; there are dps who pull far below myself on the threat list. These players are under performing.
Now again, as you didn’t seem to get it yet, despite it being explained in a response already, this is again, not comparing dps to dps. It’s dps who output far less threat than a glare mage.
Healing only pulls more threat than damage if there is over healing. Like, exponentially. There are people who aren’t up to par. There’s no denying that. I don’t understand what you are trying to dispute

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Originally Posted by Ronduwil

Or maybe the WHM just threw down Medica II. That spell shoots me up to the top of the aggro list in no time. I don't know why you're looking down on other players for not pulling enough threat. If you get the three best DPS in the world in an instance, one of them is going to be at the bottom of the list at some point. The healer is also going to be above all of them in aggro at some time. Healing pulls much more aggro than damage.

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I play as healer in Nier raids. Those raids require a good amount of healing. Lots of AoE heals, including medica II. And not once have I ever "shot up" the list passed 7 unless a DPS is very evidently not pulling their weight.

If medica II "shoots you up the list", your DPS aren't pushing their buttons or you're spamming medica II (not everyone needs a regen 24/7 and using medica II before your previous medica II wore off does NOT increase the regen potency).

A healer will never be above a good dps at the same level.

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Originally Posted by Ronduwil

I can buy the argument that this is expected in the Expert roulette, even though I've never run it. However, this go go go mentality is even pervasive in the leveling roulette. I run the leveling roulette for tomestones almost daily. I'm well-acquainted with the lower level instances. I'm not so well acquainted with the higher level ones. I've seen people complaining about having run through these instances so many times that they're bored, but in my case, this is the first expansion that I've level capped in. if the instance is 60+, I'm often running it for the first time at worst, and for the third time at best.

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Many of us are not though. We're running it for the 100th time and don't feel like taking it slow because one person isn't able to keep up when the remaining two also want a fast run. Now there are some exceptions to this. In low level dungeons or new players, I'm more forgiving. Case in point, I didn't do as big a pull as a could after wiping in Dusk Vigil last night with a baby healer. I still maintained medium pulls though. Which segues into make next point. You aren't a novice by the midway point of Heavensward, if not early. You've literally reached more than half way to max level. If you still don't understand how to dodge orange circles, use CDs and have a basic understanding of your job kit, regardless of rule, you have no business queuing for 60+ content. Go back to the earlier dungeons and/or read your tooltips. I'm not going to pull three mobs at a time in Holminster Switch cause you're too lazy to actually practice your chosen job.

This notion big pulls are some sort of boogeyman is silly. Mobs do not hurt you whatsoever. Even in Leveling dungeons. Two sets of mobs aren't going to overwhelm even newer players nor is a DPS pulling ahead all that big a deal.

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Originally Posted by Lexis

snip

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Well, I certainly agree with you. Although I'm more on the side of pulling things at a relatively fast and reasonable pace, seeing people argue over the same exact argument for the past month or two (since it had devolved to pulling slow or pulling fast multiple times) is annoying me. Chances are, no one is going to agree with each other since people are making it so extreme till there is no middle ground. At the end of the day, I say adjust accordingly to your group. If your group is undergeared or don't have a single clue in the world how to play or are unwilling to actually use their toolkit, either leave, or grit your teeth and slow down the pace. Typically, this never happens and only occurs once in a blue moon; since I still remember coming across a Cure 1 healer in Mt. Gulg of all places. On the other hand if your group knows what they're doing and shows after the first pull they can take double groups, then go as wild as you can to get the dungeon done. It's really not that hard, people do this automatically in game anyways without a single argument.

Also, I know this is off topic, but I love the glam on your cat boy, it looks nice! ^.^

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Originally Posted by raelgun

Not new players, its players like you.

Its players like you that are trying to influence people that veterans are to be held at gun point.

As you said, its a team focussed situation, so why the hell are you letting your team die, your ideology to punish people in game is not your right no matter the situation and more so because the vets want to play how they have been playing.

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I'm not letting anyone die. I'm not there yet. They ran in without me. I could have had any number of reasons for not being over the line yet. Sometimes I'm the one watching the cutscene. If people run in without their healer, then they apparently think they can do without one. Why is it anyone else's fault but their own when they turn out to be wrong in their assumption?

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

I'm not letting anyone die. I'm not there yet. They ran in without me. I could have had any number of reasons for not being over the line yet. Sometimes I'm the one watching the cutscene. If people run in without their healer, then they apparently think they can do without one. Why is it anyone else's fault but their own when they turn out to be wrong in their assumption?

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You said previously you’d sit with someone watching a cutscene. You are actively choosing to sit out. They ran in, you could have, but choose not to. If you’re watching the cs, that’s one thing. But previously you eluded yo the fact you are not the one in cs. You risk letting them die because you have a point to make. That’s 100% you

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Originally Posted by Kolaina

You said previously you’d sit with someone watching a cutscene. You are actively choosing to sit out. They ran in, you could have, but choose not to. If you’re watching the cs, that’s one thing. But previously you eluded yo the fact you are not the one in cs. You risk letting them die because you have a point to make. That’s 100% you

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And they are actively choosing to run in without the full party for whatever reason everyone isn't there. They could have chosen to make sure everyone was ready but instead they set the party up for a wipe with people missing. That is entirely on them.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

And they are actively choosing to run in without the full party for whatever reason everyone isn't there. They could have chosen to make sure everyone was ready but instead they set the party up for a wipe with people missing. That is entirely on them.

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If you are the healer, and you're not in cutscene, you should be ready, even if a dps is not. They ran in thinking that you were good to go, but you decide to be power hungry and try to play "god".

Not having a dps when you pull is not setting the party up to wipe. The healer refusing to participate because of their moral grandstanding is.

No matter how much you try and justify it, there is no justifying punishing people.

By the way, you choosing to not be ready at the boss is just that; a choice.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

And they are actively choosing to run in without the full party for whatever reason everyone isn't there. They could have chosen to make sure everyone was ready but instead they set the party up for a wipe with people missing. That is entirely on them.

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YOU set them up for a wipe because you want to be someone’s hero. Someone who may not even necessarily want you to do as you are. YOU being capable of helping but choosing not to is what causes the wipe. All because you need to flex your moral superiority

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Originally Posted by Xaruko_Nexume

I just don't understand how "picking up the pace" is so automatically equated with "good?" Got somewhere you gotta be always or something?

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We could spend time doing more useful content instead of doing something that is done once a day (or several considering leveling dungeons). We could be at a higher level or have completed tomes either one and a half times or twice as fast. Maybe we want to actually do content where all of the challenge you said you wanted is there instead of stomping content that the devs refuse to buff whatsoever. Maybe we like doing more than pressing one or two buttons per mob and taking 20 minutes instead of 30 to clear dungeons, or in the worst case scenario of 11 minutes instead of 30. It has little to do with good, it has to do with efficiency.

As an older gamer, why do you want to waste time instead of do things efficiently? Do you want to hold people back from doing other things on purpose? Do you want to spend more of your limited time doing content that can be done quickly by moving forward with the group that goes quickly, where you could use your gap closers instead of sprint on cooldown? (at least as Thaumaturge, your mileage may vary here)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nebby00

Well, I certainly agree with you. Although I'm more on the side of pulling things at a relatively fast and reasonable pace, seeing people argue over the same exact argument for the past month or two (since it had devolved to pulling slow or pulling fast multiple times) is annoying me. Chances are, no one is going to agree with each other since people are making it so extreme till there is no middle ground. At the end of the day, I say adjust accordingly to your group. If your group is undergeared or don't have a single clue in the world how to play or are unwilling to actually use their toolkit, either leave, or grit your teeth and slow down the pace. Typically, this never happens and only occurs once in a blue moon; since I still remember coming across a Cure 1 healer in Mt. Gulg of all places. On the other hand if your group knows what they're doing and shows after the first pull they can take double groups, then go as wild as you can to get the dungeon done. It's really not that hard, people do this automatically in game anyways without a single argument.

Also, I know this is off topic, but I love the glam on your cat boy, it looks nice! ^.^

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I'm a fairly new player so I don't know all the dungeons by heart yet but I also prefer a faster pace. Sometimes I'll run the wrong way like a dork but, for the most part, I'm right up there running alongside the tank, spreading the Peloton love in-between pulls and AoEing my heart out for maximum Pew Pew value. But if the group is taking it slow, then we'll take it slow, I dun' care, still having fun over here. The good dungeon experiences far outweight the bad ones so far, and this is coming from someone who just grinded Bardam's Mettle for XP.

And thank you! :D Now how do I view other forum poster's Glamour? Been dying to spy on everyone's outfits.

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Originally Posted by Lexis

I'm a fairly new player so I don't know all the dungeons by heart yet but I also prefer a faster pace. Sometimes I'll run the wrong way like a dork but, for the most part, I'm right up there running alongside the tank, spreading the Peloton love in-between pulls and AoEing my heart out for maximum Pew Pew value. But if the group is taking it slow, then we'll take it slow, I dun' care, still having fun over here. The good dungeon experiences far outweight the bad ones so far, and this is coming from someone who just grinded Bardam's Mettle for XP.

And thank you! :D Now how do I view other forum poster's Glamour? Been dying to spy on everyone's outfits.

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https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodestone/character/

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lexis

Now how do I view other forum poster's Glamour? Been dying to spy on everyone's outfits.

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This is the site i use. you can sort it by class, gender, race, or gear set. you can even type in an item and see how people paired it.
https://ffxiv.eorzeacollection.com/

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Originally Posted by Kolaina

YOU set them up for a wipe because you want to be someone’s hero. Someone who may not even necessarily want you to do as you are. YOU being capable of helping but choosing not to is what causes the wipe. All because you need to flex your moral superiority

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It has nothing to do with wanting to look a certain way. If I perceive certain behaviour as impatient, selfish and/or rude, I’ll definitely not participate in it, let alone encourage it. I’m guessing it’s simply the same way for Talera. Instead of arguing about that, take a minute to consider why someone might find that rude, and try understand their pov. You don’t have to agree but at least you can maybe see there are different perspectives, and therefore different choices. No more, no less.

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Originally Posted by Nishira

It has nothing to do with wanting to look a certain way. If I perceive certain behaviour as impatient, selfish and/or rude, I’ll definitely not participate in it, let alone encourage it. I’m guessing it’s simply the same way for Talera. Instead of arguing about that, take a minute to consider why someone might find that rude, and try understand their pov. You don’t have to agree but at least you can maybe see there are different perspectives, and therefore different choices. No more, no less.

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1 wipes a party to make a point. Doesn’t matter the POV. It’s a punishment. A choice. Can’t convince me at all it’s justified.

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Originally Posted by Roeshel

Go open the loot boxes once the duty is complete and everyone has left. You will get all the loot for yourself.

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Only if nobody opened the chests along the way. Once they're open they're on the five-minute timer.

The thing people seem to miss is that you don't have to stand at the treasure chest. There's a button on your screen for the loot roll menu, and all that interacting with the open treasure chest does is open the same menu.

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Originally Posted by Kolaina

1 wipes a party to make a point. Doesn’t matter the POV. It’s a punishment. A choice. Can’t convince me at all it’s justified.

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The funny thing is, nothing justifies to me acting in a rude manner to someone who doesn’t deserve it. And that’s exactly how I perceive someone pulling while a new player is watching a cutscene. So your choice is as unjustified to me, as mine would be to you :) If you want to say it’s about principle, then accept exactly the same thing applies to the other.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nishira

The funny thing is, nothing justifies to me acting in a rude manner to someone who doesn’t deserve it. And that’s exactly how I perceive someone pulling while a new player is watching a cutscene. So your choice is as unjustified to me, as mine would be to you :) If you want to say it’s about principle, then accept exactly the same thing applies to the other.

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So many people choose to ‘stand up’ for the person in cut scene. Does that person even want you to? Wiping a party, or doing any action knowingly leading to the wipe of a party is bad no matter how you justify it. Idc how many smiley emotes you type, you are the toxic griefer in doing so, choosing to punish people is always on the side of negativity.

Interesting topic many valid points and a lot of pointless defending. In conclusion, dungeon content is NOT suited currently to be paced like that, leveling instances and early dungeons may require to work apace, 80 dungeons do not and should not as it’s just pointless. Even if your a new tank/healer you have probably cleared harder content and if your new in 80s, then recommend leveling roulette.

Dungeons are rapid because they don’t offer anything else in terms of engagement, and if your against it your hindering your party for literally no reason. If you can clear ARR 50s dungeons you can sure as hell clear all 80s.

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Originally Posted by raelgun

maybe you should read the person I quoted, read the thread which fits the 'You may not in any way disrupt or interfere with the Game experience of other players', willingly not healing for the person I was quoting fits this, doesn't matter whom it was for.

Also are you really trying to represent the history of the game with that statement, you don't represent that position.

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This was what you were replying to:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

If we've got a newbie watching a cutscene, I stick with them outside the arena. If those who ran in can survive without heals until we get there, great. We'll join them when the cutscene is done or the game pulls us in. If not, then they can enjoy the walk of shame back and hopefully have learned something about manners.

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You are really going to argue that there is a difference between a newbie watching a cutscene and a player patiently waiting for said newbie? Really?

And you are going to argue that the person waiting patiently is being disruptive because impatient players couldn’t wait 5-10 seconds and charged ahead? You are going to seriously argue on the side of impatience in a JAPANESE game? A country famous for patience and waiting in lines?

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Originally Posted by MaxCarnage

If you are the healer, and you're not in cutscene, you should be ready, even if a dps is not. They ran in thinking that you were good to go, but you decide to be power hungry and try to play "god".

Not having a dps when you pull is not setting the party up to wipe. The healer refusing to participate because of their moral grandstanding is.

No matter how much you try and justify it, there is no justifying punishing people.

By the way, you choosing to not be ready at the boss is just that; a choice.

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I am going to play god. DPS should learn their place. I don't need them to clear any dungeon or normal raid/trial for that matter. They are disposable and they should be well aware of that.

With that said, I will heal a DPS pulling if the tank is garbage.

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No matter how much you try and justify it, there is no justifying punishing people.

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Say that to SE that puts 30min penalty on anyone who leaves a DF.

Blame the devs for making all dungeons simple and easy with the same basic formula.

No one has a reason to go slow.

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I don't need them to clear any dungeon or normal raid/trial for that matter. They are disposable and they should be well aware of that.

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Horrid mindset. A good dps is far more valuable (and more rare) than a tank or healer.

If they're bad though, kick away.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by raelgun

Buts its ok to force veteran players to go slow???

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I'm sorry but did you read my entire post or was I unclear in any way?
I clearly stated that I gladly do a wall-to-wall run in dungeons and raids with an experienced group so if you or anyone wish to do a speed run of the old content then plz sign me up.
So the short answer to your question is "No it is not ok"