Openly admitting to ignoring the players

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Originally Posted by Axxion

just wondering does anyone know how the jp side feels about the changes?

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https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/forums/552

There you go

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

Throwing a temper tantrum isn't magically going to make your criticism heard.

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Nothing gets veteran healer criticism heard. It's been phrased nicely. It's been said nastily. It's been said condescendingly. It's been said constructively. There are hundreds of ideas for improvement on these very forums, with varying degrees of quality. It's been said in megathreads. It's been said in scattered one-offs. Every expansion, the answer is "lol nope, you're getting more simplified and you're gonna like it or leave".

I swapped to a DPS main this expansion as was suggested for showing my concerns, as did several other people I know. Our concerns were met with what feels like "oh thank god those vets are gone, WHM can stay a one button boring spam class just how we like it". It's an awful gameplay loop that the DPS role wouldn't dream of accepting on any of their jobs, but apparently most new healers just love mashing Glare over and over again, big thumbs up keep it comin' Square! If you don't like complexity, nobody was stopping you from mashing Stone or spamming Medica.

If status quo white knights are gonna clutch their pearls and claim meanie toxic veteran healer echo chamber when I call out horrible design for exactly what it is, all I have to say is,
"lol go play a different game if you don't like current healer design"
"You're not a real healer because you don't like to heal, you just use it for queue times!"
"Go play a DPS if you don't like healing so much"
"Well *I* like current healing design, so sorry for you, maybe you should go do something you actually enjoy then"

Pot, meet kettle.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

Nothing gets veteran healer criticism heard. It's been phrased nicely. It's been said nastily. It's been said condescendingly. It's been said constructively. There are hundreds of ideas for improvement on these very forums, with varying degrees of quality. It's been said in megathreads. It's been said in scattered one-offs. Every expansion, the answer is "lol nope, you're getting more simplified and you're gonna like it or leave".

I swapped to a DPS main this expansion as was suggested for showing my concerns, as did several other people I know. Our concerns were met with what feels like "oh thank god those vets are gone, WHM can stay a one button boring spam class just how we like it". It's an awful gameplay loop that the DPS role wouldn't dream of accepting on any of their jobs, but apparently most new healers just love mashing Glare over and over again, big thumbs up keep it comin' Square! If you don't like complexity, nobody was stopping you from mashing Stone or spamming Medica.

If status quo white knights are gonna clutch their pearls and claim meanie toxic veteran healer echo chamber when I call out horrible design for exactly what it is, all I have to say is,
"lol go play a different game if you don't like current healer design"
"You're not a real healer because you don't like to heal, you just use it for queue times!"
"Go play a DPS if you don't like healing so much"
"Well *I* like current healing design, so sorry for you, maybe you should go do something you actually enjoy then"

Pot, meet kettle.

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Actually they did hear your concerns and criticisms. At the beginning of the letter they flat out told you no. So at this point it’ up to you to move on or accept it. Which you did per your post. Whether or not their decision is a good idea is a moot point now. They gave their answer. However, there are a lot of folks like the current healer decision.

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Originally Posted by Saefinn

Up the healing requirement. Squash that 70% down to 10 or 20%, you'll find that I'll stop complaining except maybe in solo content.

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Lol what about Sage then. If everyone needs to heal 70% of the time but sage either:

1. Can both heal and DPS during that time, then it becomes the only choice of healers.

2. Needs to focus on spamming GCD healing abilities during 70% of the time. It invalidates half of Sage's kit but most importantly, destroys Sage's identity as a healer that heals by damaging enemies.

I don't see that as a good solution for a large group of players that want green DPS tbf.

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Originally Posted by Feidam

Actually they did hear your concerns and criticisms. At the beginning of the letter they flat out told you no. So at this point it’ up to you to move on or accept it. Which you did per your post. Whether or not their decision is a good idea is a moot point now. They gave their answer. However, there are a lot of folks like the current healer decision.

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The thing is NO, it is not a moot point anymore. This is a live service game. There is nothing wrong with continuing to give that criticism over and over again for a game you pay a subscription for, even if the answer was no by the developers. That's how live service games with the player base work. You tell the developers what you want. You don't STOP telling the developers what you want. You don't shut up about it ever.

Speaking from the DPS side, thats how we got what we wanted on more then one occasion. Dev team turns Bard into a mobile caster and when complaints come in stand their ground on it? The Bard players didn't just stop giving that feedback, they stuck with it and got their rework. A good portion of the Summoner player base have been PLEADING for pets and DoTs to be either removed outright or de-emphasized since literally ARR, and have stuck with that feedback through 4 different reworks on the job. And after 8 years that is finally happening.

That portion of the healer base that doesn't like that decision are still paying customers of this game. The developers have proven on numerous occasions they can and will reverse course on decisions they make if a player base gets vocal enough about it, even if there are those who like the current design. And that's how its supposed to work with a live service design.

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Originally Posted by Rika007

The thing is NO, it is not a moot point anymore. This is a live service game. There is nothing wrong with continuing to give that criticism over and over again for a game you pay a subscription for, even if the answer was no by the developers. That's how live service games with the player base work. You tell the developers what you want. You don't STOP telling the developers what you want. You don't shut up about it ever.

Speaking from the DPS side, thats how we got what we wanted on more then one occasion. Dev team turns Bard into a mobile caster and when complaints come in stand their ground on it? The Bard players didn't just stop giving that feedback, they stuck with it and got their rework. A good portion of the Summoner player base have been PLEADING for pets and DoTs to be either removed outright or de-emphasized since literally ARR, and have stuck with that feedback through 4 different reworks on the job. And after 8 years that is finally happening.

That portion of the healer base that doesn't like that decision are still paying customers of this game. The developers have proven on numerous occasions they can and will reverse course on decisions they make if a player base gets vocal enough about it, even if there are those who like the current design. And that's how its supposed to work with a live service design.

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Or in short healer player are 3 rate people in comparison to the dps player. Nin plays and feels bad for 1 raid tier and it gets a rework faster then anything I have ever seen in ff 14 . And whm is called Clipmage for years and there were no changes and even better the last decent buff the job got was mid last raid tier stormblood were we got assize cool down reduced by 15 seconds.

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Originally Posted by Feidam

Actually they did hear your concerns and criticisms. At the beginning of the letter they flat out told you no. So at this point it’ up to you to move on or accept it. Which you did per your post. Whether or not their decision is a good idea is a moot point now. They gave their answer. However, there are a lot of folks like the current healer decision.

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https://i.imgur.com/qS2rMAZ.jpeg

There's no way anyone can ask the majority individually, but their dismissal is very contradictory. A realistic statement would have been: "We are aware of this issue and will consider further action in the future".

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Originally Posted by Shin96

https://i.imgur.com/qS2rMAZ.jpeg

There's no way anyone can ask the majority individually, but their dismissal is very contradictory. A realistic statement would have been: "We are aware of this issue and will consider further action in the future".

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Its quite funny and disheartening how a lot of those rules aren't followed at all when it comes to healers, even the point of not delaying fixes to later patches is missing with things like reintroduction of energy drain in 5.05 or how some job quests had to be reworked since they were near impossible to clear because the new mechanics (I remember one that asked you to use lustrate out of combat when aetherflow coudnt be used out of combat)

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

Nothing gets veteran healer criticism heard. It's been phrased nicely. It's been said nastily. It's been said condescendingly. It's been said constructively. There are hundreds of ideas for improvement on these very forums, with varying degrees of quality. It's been said in megathreads. It's been said in scattered one-offs. Every expansion, the answer is "lol nope, you're getting more simplified and you're gonna like it or leave".

I swapped to a DPS main this expansion as was suggested for showing my concerns, as did several other people I know. Our concerns were met with what feels like "oh thank god those vets are gone, WHM can stay a one button boring spam class just how we like it". It's an awful gameplay loop that the DPS role wouldn't dream of accepting on any of their jobs, but apparently most new healers just love mashing Glare over and over again, big thumbs up keep it comin' Square! If you don't like complexity, nobody was stopping you from mashing Stone or spamming Medica.

If status quo white knights are gonna clutch their pearls and claim meanie toxic veteran healer echo chamber when I call out horrible design for exactly what it is, all I have to say is,
"lol go play a different game if you don't like current healer design"
"You're not a real healer because you don't like to heal, you just use it for queue times!"
"Go play a DPS if you don't like healing so much"
"Well *I* like current healing design, so sorry for you, maybe you should go do something you actually enjoy then"

Pot, meet kettle.

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Listen, I get your frustration. It breaks my heart seeing how Scholar has been hollowed out and left to rot seeing as it was my main during ARR, and I loved how it played back then. All I was trying to get at is there's no reason to yell louder when it's not going to be heard anyway. And I totally agree with expressing frustration, I just don't agree with taking it beyond the design itself and blatantly trash talking Yoshi-P and the rest of the FFXIV development team because of frustration, especially because despite the healer problems, all of us still enjoy the game enough to stay subbed and continue playing.

Criticism is not what I'm saying is the monster here. Yes, it's very clear that they just don't understand how healer play. They don't understand it because they likely just aren't interested in it, and the backlash is ultimately too insignificant for them to really care and do something like hire a healer designer who understands the role inside and out. The best thing any of us can do is stop playing Healer, or stop playing the healers that are poorly designed. The only real way to get voices heard is to have player values tank, but there just aren't enough players willing to do that, whether it's due to a "I'm going to play healer anyway" mentality or just that they aren't bothered. The fact that the game only continues to get more popular also makes it hard to make not using the healers count, because fresh blood are always coming in and don't have experience with the previous healers to see the difference.

I for one want to play a lot of Sage both because I think it's a genuine improvement from what we've seen in Shadowbringers in most ways and also because I want my subscription to show that that's the direction I want the healers to go in.

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Originally Posted by Shin96

https://i.imgur.com/qS2rMAZ.jpeg

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The likely scenario right now is simply that they abandoned those principles because they became inconvenient, now that XIV is doing very well and doesn't have to desperately win people's trust back like it was the case in 2.0

Just look at point 3: "If citizens are complaining, it means they still care."

Sure, we still care... the devs just don't, they flat out told us in the live letter. They heard the healer's complaints and basically told them to move to Cananda.

Maple syrup Sage.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

The likely scenario right now is simply that they abandoned those principles because they became inconvenient, now that XIV is doing very well and doesn't have to desperately win people's trust back like it was the case in 2.0

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I think what's even more likely than that is their corporate overlords told them: "Reach this number by the time of the next expansion." So the developers are doing exactly that.

You don't dismiss players by telling them flat out there is no compromise. The willingness to listen in response means critically laying out why something doesn't work.

What's happening here is essentially they just used their loyal fanbase to spread word far enough so they can market this game the way they're doing it now. They never cared. As you say, it started becoming inconvenient.

Perhaps they did at some point, but now their priorities lie elsewhere.

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Originally Posted by Shin96

https://i.imgur.com/qS2rMAZ.jpeg

There's no way anyone can ask the majority individually, but their dismissal is very contradictory. A realistic statement would have been: "We are aware of this issue and will consider further action in the future".

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the sad thing is, people wont move to canada. not enough people anways. as much as i think current healer design is orders of magnitude worse than before, even if i stopped playing healer i probably wouldnt stop playing the game, because the game is more than the healers. and even if i DID stop playing the game, new players are coming in droves.

I could stop playing healers myself, but im always seeing new players (mostly friends who just got into xiv) start by playing healer, and sticking with the role because its newbie friendly and the queue times are comfy. I have one sprout friend in particular that thinks current whm is lame, read the hw/sb actions and thought they were so much cooler, but theyre still playing whm simply because thats the job theyve leveled the most and they dont want to start from scratch just to continue playing something else that might be better. now multiply that by however thousands of new players there are. i dont exactly know what metrics the devs use but until healers are literally unplayable theyre likely to not notice anything.


that said ill gladly keep playing the healers which i think have some semblance of good direction, mainly ast and sage, instead of the ones which i think are awfully designed. hopefully seeing higher numbers on more involved healer design will nudge them to that direction.

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Originally Posted by QooEr

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I had to think about how to approach this post, or rather how to explain the developers choice of deliberately changing their design philosophy.

Currently, healers and tanks alike, even DPS's to an extend, are designed from a point of 1-10. That means our developers are creating jobs and mechanics associated around them with people of lower skill in mind. This will scale up with content in difficulty, as more mechanics and movement is involved. Say, your satisfaction with a job in easy content is surprisingly low. That is 1. because you enjoy content through the scope of your job, and 2. there simply isn't enough mechanics involved in dungeons and other content to make up for the lack of job actions to occupy you. As a healer, being forced to press 1-2 ad nauseam, while being heavily underwhelmed by the lack of engaging mechanics inside content, will wear you down.

The reason why pressing 1-1-1-1 or 1-2 works in other games like FPS games is essentially because you are occupied by a multitude of different processes. Your attention is being drawn away from the complexity of your class, because the brain cannot deal with 5-10 things happening at a time. The player input has to be drastically lowered as a result.

There will be a point when the amount of new players and influx will hit a plateu. The reason I showed this particular image associated with a panel held by Square Enix is simple. Right now, the common perception of this game is that they care deeply. As I like to analyze trends and see patterns emerging across, eventually once, there will be a dent in growth. Companies rely heavily on public perception to pitch their products and maximize their profits.

As long-time fans will become even more vocal over time, the perception that our developers care so much will start to crumble. The silent ones leave. Since they cannot manage the same numbers as they did previously, they will be hard-pressed to make a decision. The growth has ultimately stopped, and what's left are different factions; all asking for changes. It is impossible to satisfy them all. Increasingly, the company will put them under pressure for the lack of income growth. It's easy to see where all of this will lead.

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Originally Posted by Shin96

I had to think about how to approach this post, or rather how to explain the developers choice of deliberately changing their design philosophy.

Currently, healers and tanks alike, even DPS's to an extend, are designed from a point of 1-10. That means our developers are creating jobs and mechanics associated around them with people of lower skill in mind. This will scale up with content in difficulty, as more mechanics and movement is involved. Say, your satisfaction with a job in easy content is surprisingly low. That is 1. because you enjoy content through the scope of your job, and 2. there simply isn't enough mechanics involved in dungeons and other content to make up for the lack of job actions to occupy you. As a healer, being forced to press 1-2 ad nauseam, while being heavily underwhelmed by the lack of engaging mechanics inside content, will wear you down.

The reason why pressing 1-1-1-1 or 1-2 works in other games like FPS games is essentially because you are occupied by a multitude of different processes. Your attention is being drawn away from the complexity of your class, because the brain cannot deal with 5-10 things happening at a time. The player input has to be drastically lowered as a result.

There will be a point when the amount of new players and influx will hit a plateu. The reason I showed this particular image associated with a panel held by Square Enix is simple. Right now, the common perception of this game is that they care deeply. As I like to analyze trends and see patterns emerging across, eventually once, there will be a dent in growth. Companies rely heavily on public perception to pitch their products and maximize their profits.

As long-time fans will become even more vocal over time, the perception that our developers care so much will start to crumble. The silent ones leave. Since they cannot manage the same numbers as they did previously, they will be hard-pressed to make a decision. The growth has ultimately stopped, and what's left are different factions; all asking for changes. It is impossible to satisfy them all. Increasingly, the company will put them under pressure for the lack of income growth. It's easy to see where all of this will lead.

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As much as I agree healers need improvements I think the amount of healer players is still very very far from being able to make an impact. Also gotta count the ones who like the current design, have no complaint whatsoever, or simply don't care. Online forums are echo chambers and neither you or I know exactly how many of the actual healer players would go on protest for some changes that will happen only once an expansion.

You have to understand the people who come on official forums and participate in these discussions like you and me probably make up a negligible portion of the playerbase. Most players don't take part in optimizations, hardcore content, parsing etc. They are okay as long as the story is good, music is beautiful and contents are accessible (aka low skill floor). And SE seems to be able to do just that for the past few years.

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Originally Posted by BooPoo

Lol what about Sage then. If everyone needs to heal 70% of the time but sage either:

1. Can both heal and DPS during that time, then it becomes the only choice of healers.

2. Needs to focus on spamming GCD healing abilities during 70% of the time. It invalidates half of Sage's kit but most importantly, destroys Sage's identity as a healer that heals by damaging enemies.

I don't see that as a good solution for a large group of players that want green DPS tbf.

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Well yes, they stripped SCH a chunk of its identity, made WHM's identity redundant and watered down AST's, so what's one more, eh? I mean, heck healers don't use much of their kit most of the time anyway, so welcome to the healer experience?

Putting he facetiousness aside, in actuality, no, you wouldn't need to change how SGE heals. Because SGE's DPS kits heals people, so in a way this is where SGE ends up just adding a layer to this, if you're DPSing an enemy to heal somebody that I would say that doesn't count as downtime and counts as healing uptime. It's when you're DPSing to DPS that it is downtime. With SGE this becomes harder to measure.


However, I already acknowledged this method doesn't respect the game's design. But I state it is 'a' solution (and in the context of the "healers heal" argument, this would better fit those desires), but I do not think that it is the right solution but it is a better solution than twiddling thumbs and may result in interesting healing play. But if you want to make healers engaging with their current design, that's how you're gonna do it. And I think if people are enjoying playing their healer job, they're more amenable to that change and compromise and less likely to complain. But there are problems that I listed with this approach (and is not an exhaustive list).

Breaking up the downtime with a variety of DPS-related moves is really the most sensible way to go. Because the only thing that will change is how many abilities are available to us in our downtime and how our rDPS is balanced.

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Originally Posted by BooPoo

As much as I agree healers need improvements I think the amount of healer players is still very very far from being able to make an impact. Also gotta count the ones who like the current design, have no complaint whatsoever, or simply don't care.

You have to understand the people who come on official forums and participate in these discussions like you and me probably make up a negligible portion of the playerbase. Most players don't take part in optimizations, hardcore content, parsing etc. They are okay as long as the story is good, music is beautiful and contents are accessible (aka low skill floor). And SE seems to be able to do just that for the past few years.

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It's correct that they manage to satisfy people that come for the story and music, or FF themes. But they like to deliberately excuse job and role design decisions around those players in mind. Holding back players because others cannot manage to accomplish the same results is a terrible idea. One man's frustration can make up for a thousand, and the silent majority do not set trends. As I have said, all of these choices are made by the developers themselves.

They should introduce optional difficulties. If most players are unable to play at an efficent pace, it makes sense to accommodate them this way. If they are bothered by pressing more than 1-2 buttons, I don't see what's hard by giving them the option to do that. I just don't want to be treated the same way honestly.

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Originally Posted by Saefinn

Putting he facetiousness aside, in actuality, no, you wouldn't need to change how SGE heals. Because SGE's DPS kits heals people, so in a way this is where SGE ends up just adding a layer to this, if you're DPSing an enemy to heal somebody that I would say that doesn't count as downtime and counts as healing uptime. It's when you're DPSing to DPS that it is downtime. With SGE this becomes harder to measure.

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Not meaning to disapprove of your final solution, I very much want it, but just want to add another reason against upping healer uptime to 90%:

Assuming no changes to healer kits, if healers have 90% uptime but sage is the only one that's able to consistently output damage during it (aside from Assize, Star etc. since those are like 400 pot per minute) then it becomes way too OP. Sorry but I can't fathom how SGE can exist in a world where everyone needs to be a curebot with balance in mind.

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Originally Posted by Shin96

It's correct that they manage to satisfy people that come for the story and music, or FF themes. But they like to deliberately excuse job and role design decisions around those players in mind. Holding back players because others cannot manage to accomplish the same results is a terrible idea. One man's frustration can make up for a thousand, and the silent majority do not set trends. As I have said, all of these choices are made by the developers themselves.

They should introduce optional difficulties. If most players are unable to play at an efficent pace, it makes sense to accommodate them this way. If they are bothered by pressing more than 1-2 buttons, I don't see what's hard by giving them the option to do that. I just don't want to be treated the same way honestly.

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I agree they should add ultimates beyond every savage content as long as it only drops better glamour to avoid FOMO for 99% of the playerbase.

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Originally Posted by BooPoo

I agree they should add ultimates beyond every savage content as long as it only drops better glamour to avoid FOMO for 99% of the playerbase.

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Isn't that also going to be the most relevant reward for that same 99% of the playerbase.

Not getting something only useful to Ultimate is hardly going to be missed by those not doing Ultimate. But glowing more? That unites people.

For the record I love 1 button healer dps. I’m leveling whm now after quitting it in 2.0 and I have to say I’m so glad cleric stance is gone. That was the worst shit ever having to manage a dps transformation etc. I quit whm at 12 back then and already am 25 now.

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Originally Posted by BooPoo

Not meaning to disapprove of your final solution, I very much want it, but just want to add another reason against upping healer uptime to 90%:

Assuming no changes to healer kits, if healers have 90% uptime but sage is the only one that's able to consistently output damage during it (aside from Assize, Star etc. since those are like 400 pot per minute) then it becomes way too OP. Sorry but I can't fathom how SGE can exist in a world where everyone needs to be a curebot with balance in mind.

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That's fair and something I did not consider, because with that configuration SGE would have a higher rDPS and people would just pick SGE. So it is possible then if they took this approach then they would either have to add damage to more healing spells on other jobs or take away that part of SGE and knowing their track record it'd be the latter rather than the former. The former, however, would not be so bad, but given the solution I was describing was with the "healers heal not DPS" crowd in mind and the steps that would require healers to be engaging with the current design then it'd be the latter option it'd follow.

Which of course doesn't work with those who're on the side of healer/DPS hybrid. Though I feel ultimately the reason the healer/DPS hybrid approach is the best solution is because the game was designed to favour that approach, which makes sense because it was how healers were designed originally. And it is further evidenced by the fact we have huge downtimes of spamming 1 or 2 buttons. Hence it would be a lot of work to satisfy the "healers heal and are not DPS" camp, because although it looks like it on paper, how healers are designed don't favour that mentality either because it's not just healer design that controls this.

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Originally Posted by Shin96

It's correct that they manage to satisfy people that come for the story and music, or FF themes. But they like to deliberately excuse job and role design decisions around those players in mind. Holding back players because others cannot manage to accomplish the same results is a terrible idea. One man's frustration can make up for a thousand, and the silent majority do not set trends. As I have said, all of these choices are made by the developers themselves.

They should introduce optional difficulties. If most players are unable to play at an efficent pace, it makes sense to accommodate them this way. If they are bothered by pressing more than 1-2 buttons, I don't see what's hard by giving them the option to do that. I just don't want to be treated the same way honestly.

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I mean, if you're in a dungeon and your healer is spamming Glare or Holy when there's a bigger range of options available, how many people in that party are going o complain about that healer's performance? I reckon maybe a small handful. Because how many people sit there and criticise how well their DRG or their NIN or their MNK are performing? Or any of the tanks for that matter, if you don't see PLD use their full DPS kit do we see people complain? And PLD has a few facets to their DPS kit but they can still perform well enough on their base kit.

I feel like the people who'd be most affected are those at the higher end trying to maximise their own DPS contribution, so it's extra steps for them, I'd argue those at that higher level of play are in a position where they can handle it, especially if we take the kind of approach we had with SCH where your skills are worked gradually and between heals and not a combo like DRG or MNK or to the same level of complexity. Or if it's like SGE where there is a dual purpose of healing and DPS in their spells. I get some might not want to do that, but I'd wager they'd still at least enjoy the role and if we're looking for a happy medium, there's compromises somewhere on each level (even on mine)

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Originally Posted by Saefinn

I mean, if you're in a dungeon and your healer is spamming Glare or Holy when there's a bigger range of options available, how many people in that party are going o complain about that healer's performance? I reckon maybe a small handful. Because how many people sit there and criticise how well their DRG or their NIN or their MNK are performing? Or any of the tanks for that matter, if you don't see PLD use their full DPS kit do we see people complain? And PLD has a few facets to their DPS kit but they can still perform well enough on their base kit.

I feel like the people who'd be most affected are those at the higher end trying to maximise their own DPS contribution, so it's extra steps for them, I'd argue those at that higher level of play are in a position where they can handle it, especially if we take the kind of approach we had with SCH where your skills are worked gradually and between heals and not a combo like DRG or MNK or to the same level of complexity. Or if it's like SGE where there is a dual purpose of healing and DPS in their spells. I get some might not want to do that, but I'd wager they'd still at least enjoy the role and if we're looking for a happy medium, there's compromises somewhere on each level (even on mine)

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The problem with this crowd is they want to drag us down on the same cognitive level as them. They want to enjoy the fruits of being able to play a job at maximum efficency, except by doing nothing. You can make your healers as braindead as possible, or any job in this specific case, and they still won't use their toolkit to the fullest. I think this is what's largely missing in this discussion.

People need to stop with this act of modesty; it won't solve anything. I'm not advocating for people to be insensetive or rude, but let's all be honest and say we dislike these changes. This has always been for the most part, a conflict of interests. How much would it hurt them if they were in a matchmaking system of people equal to their skill; by an optional difficulty where you don't have to play moderately well? It really wouldn't be such a big problem. However, they just don't like being left out on the basis of us wanting to expand our horizones and just have more things to do with our jobs.

If they see anything more than 1 button they start shaking. Nevermind you don't have to use them all if you don't care about performance, but let's drag everyone down to the same level. Pressing less will give us the same efficency, but the reward structure of learning your job and playing accordingly is rendered null and void.

I think this is the first time I ever experienced a game with a backwards logic; in such a way where the worst are considered the guiding standard for how a job should be designed. No wonder I end up with a SAM that uses single target rotations on a wide array of mobs. No melded materia, no interest in improvements. I feel like this game is encouraging laziness in more ways than one at the expense of everyone.

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Originally Posted by Shin96

The problem with this crowd is they want to drag us down on the same cognitive level as them. They want to enjoy the fruits of being able to play a job at maximum efficency, except by doing nothing. You can make your healers as braindead as possible, or any job in this specific case, and they still won't use their toolkit to the fullest. I think this is what's largely missing in this discussion.

People need to stop with this act of modesty; it won't solve anything. I'm not advocating for people to be insensetive or rude, but let's all be honest and say we dislike these changes. This has always been for the most part, a conflict of interests. How much would it hurt them if they were in a matchmaking system of people equal to their skill; by an optional difficulty where you don't have to play moderately well? It really wouldn't be such a big problem. However, they just don't like being left out on the basis of us wanting to expand our horizones and just have more things to do with our jobs.

If they see anything more than 1 button they start shaking. Nevermind you don't have to use them all if you don't care about performance, but let's drag everyone down to the same level. Pressing less will give us the same efficency, but the reward structure of learning your job and playing accordingly is rendered null and void.

I think this is the first time I ever experienced a game with a backwards logic; in such a way where the worst are considered the guiding standard for how a job should be designed. No wonder I end up with a SAM that uses single target rotations on a wide array of mobs. No melded materia, no interest in improvements. I feel like this game is encouraging laziness in more ways than one at the expense of everyone.

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I'm fine with things being more accessible, that side I have no issue with and I think that only needs a low skill floor, high skill ceiling approach and I think the complaint from the accessibility PoV is where they're expected to contribute bigger DPS when it'd tougher, that can be because they are new, an age thing, a disability and so on. Though they don't really make up the complaints I see.

As for those who're generally lazy and want to put in minimal effort for maximum results then yeah, it makes less sense to accommodate them because when we get to the level of place where DPS contribute tends to really matter then we're at a level of content hat isn't low effort.

And I think the one of the more common complaints I've seen have been on healers focusing too much on their DPS and not enough on their healing.

Honestly I'm not sure what the solution is to that, I don't think there is beyond redesigning how the game works, I know how it can be mitigated (and one of those mitigations is given people more to do, because tunnel vision is a thing), but the game is designed in a way where the most valuable thing in content is how much overall damage you contribute. It's not say, Final Fantasy XI where your party configuration is based on what abilities your job can have to contribute in dealing with certain mechanics...in a similar sort of way Masked Carnivale is designed, where your choice in Blue Magic spells is based on what provides the best methods for dealing with each encounter's mechanics, but this approach doesn't exist outside of that in XIV...and I don't think there is anything wrong with that. It will come with its downsides.

I know I responded in another thread to somebody today who said they would rather healers have 0 DPS abilities in dungeons so they can focus on the party and not prioritise their DPS. But that's not a good suggestion, but I think as far as the rest of the party is concerned they may live with that idea because hey, they're not the healer. Even then, NGL, I'd probably just play on my phone in my down time, so I'd probably has less focus.

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Originally Posted by Saefinn

I know I responded in another thread to somebody today who said they would rather healers have 0 DPS abilities in dungeons so they can focus on the party and not prioritise their DPS. But that's not a good suggestion, but I think as far as the rest of the party is concerned they may live with that idea because hey, they're not the healer. Even then, NGL, I'd probably just play on my phone in my down time, so I'd probably has less focus.

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Agreed. Not to mention that it renders healers useless on their own outside of instances. 4 entire jobs in an RPG cannot be played independently in the open world of an MMO is such a joke. On top of that it really disrespects the players that like hybrid playstyle. I think the person you responded to was arguing in bad faith tbh.

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Originally Posted by BooPoo

Agreed. Not to mention that it renders healers useless on their own outside of instances. 4 entire jobs in an RPG cannot be played independently in the open world of an MMO is such a joke. On top of that it really disrespects the players that like hybrid playstyle. I think the person you responded to was arguing in bad faith tbh.

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I've elaborated on this concept before, but I feel that AST would make sense to move party damage buffs onto the GCD--ones that are based in potency and not percentage--and make that their focus. They would still want to keep Combust up, and would have Malefic for solo, but a lot of your gameplay would stem from placing buff stacks on the party through healing and support that deal potency damage to enemies when that ally attacks--including yourself.

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Originally Posted by BooPoo

Agreed. Not to mention that it renders healers useless on their own outside of instances. 4 entire jobs in an RPG cannot be played independently in the open world of an MMO is such a joke. On top of that it really disrespects the players that like hybrid playstyle. I think the person you responded to was arguing in bad faith tbh.

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Thankfully SE have cold hard experience that doing just this simply doesn't work.

I mained BRD in FFXI, was extremely hardcore into the end game pre CoP. I had pretty much every piece of gear I could want short of a relic (which was an impossibility at the time), yet for me to kill something that gave an amount of exp solo took in the region of about 10-15 minutes. Bards were precisely what these sort of people want healers to be. Pocket enablers to be dragged around and little else. And to the shock of absolutely no one, geared out bard mains were like unicorns. I had my pick of groups and content from the second I logged in to the moment I wanted to sleep because so few people had the mentality to stick with the job and find it enjoyable or rewarding.

That person's suggestion was borderline insulting in my eyes and if these forums weren't so strongly moderated, I'd have some very choice words to offer up in response.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

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Agreed, this is something I keep suggesting time and time again and I'm amazed it doesn't gather more momentum.

AST should have the ability to dump it's damage GCDs onto someone else. It's just such an easy solution to so many problems that it really boggles my mind that SE haven't tried it.

It throws another spanner into the works for logs rankings.
It gives the Sylphies something to do that isn't strictly 'DPSing'.
It offers a great illusion of choice for little effort.
If SE keep it as a raw potency buff rather than going back down the % rabbit hole, it wouldn't even be difficult to tune.

Come on Yoshida, of all the suggestions on these boards, this is one of the easiest to do =(

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Originally Posted by BooPoo

Agreed. Not to mention that it renders healers useless on their own outside of instances. 4 entire jobs in an RPG cannot be played independently in the open world of an MMO is such a joke. On top of that it really disrespects the players that like hybrid playstyle. I think the person you responded to was arguing in bad faith tbh.

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If they ever did that, BLU would likely become the go to healer even if a limited job. I'm glad it sounds like they are giving more DPS options with upgraded AOE abilities.... finally as it is the first time since ARR other than when giving Aero III to WHM in HW. We of course will know a lot more in a couple of days and if most of the existing kit there unlike SB WHM or ShB SCH it won't be as doom and gloom as some are making it. At this point the only spell we know for sure gone is Fluid Aura, but that was the next nerfing to it anyway.

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Originally Posted by AFuzzyMu11in

For the record I love 1 button healer dps. I’m leveling whm now after quitting it in 2.0 and I have to say I’m so glad cleric stance is gone. That was the worst shit ever having to manage a dps transformation etc. I quit whm at 12 back then and already am 25 now.

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Was level 12 CNJ really that stressful in 2.0? I was there and found WHM at 50 boring. I can't imagine looking at 4 skills and saying "Enough is too much!"

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Originally Posted by NobleWinter

Was level 12 CNJ really that stressful in 2.0? I was there and found WHM at 50 boring. I can't imagine looking at 4 skills and saying "Enough is too much!"

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I'm pretty sure that player is just here to troll. Everything is always so matter-of-fact, hyperbolic, and intentionally confrontational that I can't see any of it as serious. Best thing to do is not feed the troll.

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Originally Posted by Shin96

It's correct that they manage to satisfy people that come for the story and music, or FF themes. But they like to deliberately excuse job and role design decisions around those players in mind. Holding back players because others cannot manage to accomplish the same results is a terrible idea.

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This is what I don't understand about this. If someone wants to CureBot, that's fine, it's their sub. But they are NOT entitled to a group outside of the Duty Finder. Party finder is for like minded people trying to do content a certain way. Their Group, Their Rules (within the boundaries of the game). So fine, be a CureBot, but don't be surprised if you don't get many groups.

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Originally Posted by Shin96

They should introduce optional difficulties. If most players are unable to play at an efficent pace, it makes sense to accommodate them this way. If they are bothered by pressing more than 1-2 buttons, I don't see what's hard by giving them the option to do that. I just don't want to be treated the same way honestly.

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This already exists. It's called Normal Mode. EX, Unreal, Savage, and Ultimate exist for a reason on the broad spectrum of difficulty. Harder difficulties require more effort out of players to complete them.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

This already exists. It's called Normal Mode. EX, Unreal, Savage, and Ultimate exist for a reason on the broad spectrum of difficulty. Harder difficulties require more effort out of players to complete them.

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This is what I don't understand about this. This rationale is about as relevant as telling a village they needn't be starving because food exists... somewhere.

Yes, an actually compelling difficulty exists... somewhere within the game, but only if you happen to enjoy the means by which that difficulty is provided (e.g., ultra-scripted fights for "difficulty" in Ultimate or extremely long grinds for "difficulty" in solo PotD clears).

You enjoy 4-man content that's not merely a procedurally generated slog? No difficulty for you, I'm afraid. You'd like 8-man content that isn't painfully scripted or limited to perfectly rectangular or circular rooms? No can do, sorry.

At virtually no cost, though, compelling difficulty levels --as giving by having actual options within each different content types-- could exist for... any and all content. That is what your painful oversimplification ignores here.

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Originally Posted by NobleWinter

Was level 12 CNJ really that stressful in 2.0? I was there and found WHM at 50 boring. I can't imagine looking at 4 skills and saying "Enough is too much!"

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12 conjurer had by this point had 6 buttons. Stone, cure, aero, medica and two cross class abilities. Since it wasnt much work, these would be thunder and one other of your choice because the first 10 levels were merely a couple of fates and level 5 leves. Pity leves didnt scale well.

I was there too. WHM wasnt as fun as sch that's true, but it was still more fun than today's one button spam. Couple dots to manage, holy that was actually powerful, healing more meaningful, mp management, crowd control and buffs. Mainly self buffing which worked well

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Yes, an actually compelling difficulty exists... somewhere within the game, but only if you happen to enjoy the means by which that difficulty is provided (e.g., ultra-scripted fights for "difficulty" in Ultimate or extremely long grinds for "difficulty" in solo PotD clears).

You enjoy 4-man content that's not merely a procedurally generated slog? No difficulty for you, I'm afraid. You'd like 8-man content that isn't painfully scripted or limited to perfectly rectangular or circular rooms? No can do, sorry.

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I agree. I like Savage and Ultimates so that itch is scratched somewhat, but there are a lot of things the game simply refuses to do because "a hard difficulty exists". I dislike that large scale raids are strictly limited to faceroll Duty Finder alliance or a niche tucked away somewhere like BA and DR. It's a shame there's no regular semi-casual flexible group sized large raids for FC's to progress in, guild raid night used to be the big thing to look forward to in other games.
4 man content is the other obvious one. It's either faceroll DF dungeons or "go solo PotD lol". I just don't like the format of PotD. It's not a dungeon. It's long, incredibly punishing in a bad way and locked to Save files. It's not something you can grab a few FC or friends and say "hey, anyone up for an EX dungeon or two" and just hop in for fun.

It's always either scripted 8 man, faceroll or full of weird mechanics and niches. But rarely ever just plain regular large raids or dungeons with a bit more bite.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Thankfully SE have cold hard experience that doing just this simply doesn't work.

I mained BRD in FFXI, was extremely hardcore into the end game pre CoP. I had pretty much every piece of gear I could want short of a relic (which was an impossibility at the time), yet for me to kill something that gave an amount of exp solo took in the region of about 10-15 minutes. Bards were precisely what these sort of people want healers to be. Pocket enablers to be dragged around and little else. And to the shock of absolutely no one, geared out bard mains were like unicorns. I had my pick of groups and content from the second I logged in to the moment I wanted to sleep because so few people had the mentality to stick with the job and find it enjoyable or rewarding.

That person's suggestion was borderline insulting in my eyes and if these forums weren't so strongly moderated, I'd have some very choice words to offer up in response.

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Notice something missing from this job list? (Aside from Dragoon)

https://i.imgur.com/EH3zJdI.png

I think you are spot on about FFXI BRD and I think it is a fair comparison too... and I too very rarely saw Bard players. Though I know BRD's could be very beneficial to party.

Corsair was one of my mains and I feel like it's the counterpart to this, BRD never appealed to me...pretty much for the reasons you've stated and I think you make a fair comparison. So I never unlocked it.

COR on the other hand had more damage potential than BRD. Heck at a high level COR is capable of some crazy numbers.

But I guess at least now you can summon trusts in FFXI and almost anywhere so it can at least alleviate this problem.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

This is what I don't understand about this. If someone wants to CureBot, that's fine, it's their sub. But they are NOT entitled to a group outside of the Duty Finder. Party finder is for like minded people trying to do content a certain way. Their Group, Their Rules (within the boundaries of the game). So fine, be a CureBot, but don't be surprised if you don't get many groups.

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Pretty much this. And the great thing about PF is they can form their own group with their own rules too. We don't have to step on each other's toes after all.

The way I see it:

Duty Finder -> you can get everyone and anyone and it's just a roulette of who you get and you expect different levels of skill, approaches and attitudes.
Party Finder -> you can be more specific in the kind of set up you want and recruit people who fit. It's not infallible, but it's still a useful filter.

Duty Finder I think is great for people who are learning and for lower effort content. So you don't really go in with expectations. I mean, you can maybe expect a base level of competence as I think people obviously have a limit for their own patience.

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Originally Posted by NobleWinter

Was level 12 CNJ really that stressful in 2.0? I was there and found WHM at 50 boring. I can't imagine looking at 4 skills and saying "Enough is too much!"

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I find swapping stances and managing stuff like that tedious and annoying to deal with.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

I agree. I like Savage and Ultimates so that itch is scratched somewhat, but there are a lot of things the game simply refuses to do because "a hard difficulty exists". I dislike that large scale raids are strictly limited to faceroll Duty Finder alliance or a niche tucked away somewhere like BA and DR. It's a shame there's no regular semi-casual flexible group sized large raids for FC's to progress in, guild raid night used to be the big thing to look forward to in other games.
4 man content is the other obvious one. It's either faceroll DF dungeons or "go solo PotD lol". I just don't like the format of PotD. It's not a dungeon. It's long, incredibly punishing in a bad way and locked to Save files. It's not something you can grab a few FC or friends and say "hey, anyone up for an EX dungeon or two" and just hop in for fun.

It's always either scripted 8 man, faceroll or full of weird mechanics and niches. But rarely ever just plain regular large raids or dungeons with a bit more bite.

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This game tosses a plethora of content at players in both solo and group formats, and the difficulty range is quite fair for being an mmo wherein the majority of the playerbase has a nice comfort level of where they like to do content. I can't help but facepalm when I see gripes like this. If you are no longer finding anything engaging, I don't think it's the game's fault; I think you're just burned out. Don't take that offensively. It's not meant to be. It's meant to have you take a step back and look around. Imagine being a totally brand new player coming into FFXIV right now.

The majority of the playerbase don't do Ultimate, Savage, or even EX. I mention that not because it's difficult and intimidating to try, but because each of those can be considered their own content, and require their own time investment. The same can be said about content like big game fishing, expert level crafting, housing and gardening, Eureka and Bozja, PoTD and HoH, etc. It's a big 'ol amusement park, and most players don't have the time to try all the rides, or they establish a comfort zone with particular rides and don't want to try the others. You really should be able to find something engaging and fun. If you can't, then you might have to seek out that engagement and challenge elsewhere.

In any case, and still using the park metaphor; you can't hop off the rollercoaster and head over to the Ferris wheel and expect the same kind of thrill, yeah? Don't hop into dungeon after doing savage/ultimate and be like, "You know what would be cool? Some kind of enrage timer to make things interesting!"

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Originally Posted by Gemina

This game tosses a plethora of content at players in both solo and group formats, and the difficulty range is quite fair for being an mmo wherein the majority of the playerbase has a nice comfort level of where they like to do content. I can't help but facepalm when I see gripes like this. If you are no longer finding anything engaging, I don't think it's the game's fault; I think you're just burned out. Don't take that offensively. It's not meant to be. It's meant to have you take a step back and look around. Imagine being a totally brand new player coming into FFXIV right now.

The majority of the playerbase don't do Ultimate, Savage, or even EX. I mention that not because it's difficult and intimidating to try, but because each of those can be considered their own content, and require their own time investment. The same can be said about content like big game fishing, expert level crafting, housing and gardening, Eureka and Bozja, PoTD and HoH, etc. It's a big 'ol amusement park, and most players don't have the time to try all the rides, or they establish a comfort zone with particular rides and don't want to try the others. You really should be able to find something engaging and fun. If you can't, then you might have to seek out that engagement and challenge elsewhere.

In any case, and still using the park metaphor; you can't hop off the rollercoaster and head over to the Ferris wheel and expect the same kind of thrill, yeah? Don't hop into dungeon after doing savage/ultimate and be like, "You know what would be cool? Some kind of enrage timer to make things interesting!"

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The thing is, your comment is disregarding the entire issue. For healer players, many of whom have become experienced with how healing plays have discovered that healing is very poorly designed for casual content. DPS jobs are engaging at all levels of play. It doesn't matter if it's Ultimate or if it's your dungeon roulette. Sure, Ultimate is still more engaging for those that want to scratch that itch, but even when you're doing your dailies, if you enjoy your DPS job's playstyle, then it's still fun. Meanwhile, once you've understood how healing plays, casual content basically asks you to do nothing. Healing requirements are trivial to which healers don't neve need to stop DPSing to keep the party healthy. I don't really understand why there are some people who find the idea of asking for a job to always be fun for as many players as possible rather than only fun if the fight is pushing you to your limit or you're just not a very experienced healer is such an outrageous request.

This is not a theme park where the content exclusively dictates the experience you receive. The quality of the job you play is half the ride.

4v4 PvP is pretty challenging light party content.
Well that aside, extreme dungeons are not an impossible concept, just merely something that does not fit into the production line of the game right now.
Their place in the progression would be weird. Would they be ... easier than ex trials but harder than ... 24s? Or easier than 24s?

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Originally Posted by Gemina

I can't help but facepalm when I see gripes like this. If you are no longer finding anything engaging, I don't think it's the game's fault; I think you're just burned out. Don't take that offensively. It's not meant to be.

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Whenever I read nonsense like this I facepalm too. We can facepalm at each other c:

I'm entitled to have preferences. I've never really liked dungeons, alliance raids or PotD ever since I started the game, so I haven't burnt on them, I just think they're bland, boring, throwaway content and always have. I still enjoy plenty of other content, great story, hard content is great, crafting is good, customization is good. Overall I like FF14. I just don't have strong preferences on their casual content. I think it's wasted potential that 4 man dungeons and alliance raids are solely limited to faceroll duty finder.