Geomancer

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Originally Posted by SeikishiYuuki

Penelo interesting is in fact a White Mage - Dancer hybrid her healing abilities come from her White Magick so not really Healer Dancer. Since none of the Dancer abilities heal iirc.

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She's new Mog. Plus it's a game where you can make most of your characters do whatever you want. I could have gone Dancer/White Mage in XI but there is no way I was going to be a healer.

So once again, I get you're playing Devils Advocate Mirron, but Penelo being able to dance wasn't going to make dancer a healer in FFXIV.

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Originally Posted by MirronTulaxia

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You're right, I have to read what you write multiple times usually before I can attempt to respond.

1. Okay the 1 or 2 in there cannot heal. But not only that, Knights of the Round is technically an ability. Can you go through every conjurer in the game otherwise in dungeon or not and tell me what others cannot heal. I KNOW you are only saying it because I said if something is a class, they act like the class in dungeons. You're playing devils advocate. And feel free to list out every dancer as well since you said you would. I have a hard time believing you will find them as anything other than support. This isn't about them using chakrams this is about them being a support character. But then you will use your trademark "You say that is this, but I don't personally see it as that".

2. The devs don't care how you see the classes as similar or not. The lore book calls them similar, the game calls them similar. Because Mirron on the forums doesn't see them as similar doesn't erase the printed words. And of course red mage uses the same elements, they are a red mage. They have access to both white and black magic. Your argument would be better if red mage was summoning something. Which they aren't.

Her healing abilities are literally Cure and Curaga, she is called dancer but the dance part of her is buffing. Dancer is not actually that variant of a job within the series and has a pretty constant theme of Debuff the enemies occasionally some party side buffs though mostly only when mixed with Bard and White Mage. Dancers largest variance comes from XI where the job had a number abilities that functioned similar to other roles including heals and a provoke for tanking but even as the outlier its still got a decent focus on debuffing enemies. That is to say its not without variance, like Mog's GeoDancer hybrid or Penelo who is a dancer with access to white magic.

On a less annoyed note, no one here is saying that it's set in stone.

A majority here says with healers having such a small amount of spots for dps spells along with class fantasy, there are better options for the healer slot.

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Originally Posted by BasicBlake

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1. I'm talking about the Minstrels Ballad version. Where you actually fight the knights. They don't do healing. And in terms of the only explicit Conjurers we have, Edda doesn't do healing either when you fight her. Feel free to point at explicitly Conjurers that do heal, but what I'm seeing there aren't any.

2. Devil's Advocate is arguing an opposing position even if you don't agree with it. You're misusing the term.

3. FFIV Dance casts random White Magic, so healer fits. FFV Dancers have Sword Dance (hit four times), Drain HP, Drain MP, Confuse, and Charm. Most of their moves are offensive in nature, and Sword Dance is at its most effective at an appropriate range, which in FFV is melee for them. FFVI Mog is mostly a Caster or Healer with his Dance skills, not a ranged DPS. FFX-2 Dancer doesn't do any sort of ranged DPS elements, focusing mostly on debuffs with a couple of buffs. XI Dancers have Waltzes for curing, and in terms of weapons again the only weapon they have of note is Daggers, so a melee job. FFXII Penelo has Dance of Rapture, which is a healing spell, not listed as just Curaga, so again a healing dance. Otherwise she has buffs and debuffs. FFT Dancer is a full on debuff the entire team thing, to me mostly reads as a Caster DPS. Again in terms of weapons they only have melee weapons. Dimensions Dancers having healing, debuffs, and straight damage, again being stuck at melee range.

I've gone through every instance of Dancer. Of them, FFIV, FFVI, FFXI, FFXII RW, FFD all have some degree of healing. None of the jobs have ranged physical capabilities (again, some of them have what can only be described as supernatural effects given how broad they are) though. I don't know why "Dancer could have been a healer, it wouldn't be out of the ordinary with past instances" is such a big deal. Oh, forgot TA2 Penelo. Who goes an entirely different route than her XII RW version (so ostensibly same job but completely different effects) with mostly caster-like dances and a strong melee hit/debuffs. Again, Dancers could very easily have been healers.

4. The devs don't care if I see them as similar or not, certainly. But the devs have yet to say anything on the matter. Lore book saying they're similar to Conjurers (not White Mages) is kind of irrelevant because the bulk of the game you play a White Mage, not a Conjurer, and they've changed how the jobs work, along with the fact that lore carries zero weight on anything.

5. You're shifting to something entirely aside from the point. The point was about job fantasy, something that the developers have said zero times. Job fantasy is not dictated by elements to me. That's why I cited White Mages who use Fire, Water, and Earth, while Black Mages use Wind, Earth, and Water. To hear you talk about it these represent entirely different job fantasies.

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Originally Posted by GucciSan

We write it off because it makes zero design sense to have two similar Jobs in the same role. And SE supports our theory just by their history of Job additions. Look at the list of what we have now and most would agree none of them have any thematic overlap.

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Arguably there's some thematic overlap for specific jobs (like, say, Gunbreaker and Machinist's use of technology, Dark Knight and Warrior's use of their inner rage, or Dancer and Bard's support through entertainment), but significant enough difference in their mechanics and/or role that they each carve their niche.

By contrast though, Geomancer simply drawing energy from the land would be exactly the same as a Conjurer within the healing role and would have difficulty manifesting in ways we haven't seen among existing healers -- but would be unique in a role like caster DPS.

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Originally Posted by MirronTulaxia

Dark Knight? Samurai? Gunbreaker? I mean, you can throw a dart at the board of jobs and chances are a noticeable amount of people called the job as something other than what we got.

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... And I would argue most of whom were pegged as one of two roles, and were often denied others that fell outside their niche.
To use your example, jobs like Dark Knight, Samurai and Gunblade (before Gunbreaker was established) were always going to be argued as either melee DPS or tank -- because any new job introduced is always going to lean towards either damage or support. The only jobs that are iconically a single fixed role within the holy trinity are White Mage, Black Mage, and Paladin, who were quite obviously the first ones put on the plate.

But I would also point out that even by dint of your own argument, if Geomancer were to be added, we're as likely to see it be literally any other role including one that doesn't exist yet as we are to see it be a healer -- essentially throwing up your hands and saying "well screw it, why not make it anything then" -- which makes the discussion point non-constructive within the topic, if not even self-defeating as an actual point.

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

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1. Sure? I didn't say that every job could be any role. My point, this entire time, has been that Geomancer could fit Healer as a role and it wouldn't be strange. Most jobs can be multiple roles.

2. Funnily because of Agrias and Beatrix I could see Paladin outside of Tank. It wouldn't be likely, but Melee DPS wouldn't shock me.

3. Outside of the ones you listed Red Mage and Dancer both had a lot of flexibility beyond just two.

4. I'm not sure what you get about my argument that equals "Geomancer would be Ranged DPS". Even Melee DPS and Tank are rather tricky to justify (I could make a case for Melee DPS, but Tank, regardless of any other things, isn't plausible as Geo is a DoM thing). But really what rules out Geomancer for any other role, at least within the context of what I'm talking about which is next expansions jobs, is that the only roles that are at 3 are Ranged, Caster, and Healer. So Tank and Melee aren't even on the table, and Ranged I can't see any real justification for it based off of past jobs.

5. Not sure I've said a new role is possible either. Based off of how they do things I don't see it being realistic at all. If they wanted to do that there have been pretty ample chances with past jobs to mess around with that and they didn't.

Edit: Since it seems like you don't understand the points I'm making I'll reiterate them.

1. Lore in this game has zero bearing on what they'll do with a job. The lore team has said that they build lore around what the developer team does. This isn't even getting into how valid the lore interpretation of "they're only casters" is, but at the end of the day it's pointless to treat lore as terribly important.

2. "Job fantasy" is inherently subjective, and where people see a job as being too similar others do not. Trying to predict how the development team specifically sees the issue is especially difficult to really grasp, and there isn't enough to go off of because the job that it's most similar to according to people on this board is Conjurer, which White Mage has changed from in this expansion. There isn't really any sort of counter examples to draw on to really say how those changes impact how "similar" Geomancer is.

3. In terms of role possibility Geomancer has more than enough to justify Healer as an option. Hypothetically they could fit any job into any role regardless of past versions. Dancer certainly shows that, if nothing else. As you pointed out that's basically just killing the discussion though, so instead I opt for looking at past games and seeing what Geomancers have access to.

Note that none of this is saying "Geomancers will explicitly be a Healer based off of past games" or some such. My stance has always been, consistently, "Geomancers could be a Healer and it wouldn't be unusual". Nothing more than that. To even suggest it might not be a Caster though seems to be a radical thought though given this multipage discourse on the matter. But I don't think that stance is unreasonable myself.

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Originally Posted by MirronTulaxia

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First off, I want to say that your bullet points are hard to follow because you assign them arbitrarily. I had two paragraphs, with four sentences total, and you put out five bullet points. No idea how you separate them.
(Edit: And then you added 3 more bullet points and restarted your numbering scheme. If you're arguing that I don't understand what you're saying, perhaps it's because your argument is hard to follow, and you should consider working on your legibility.)

3. I said "most", dear.

4. Then you missed the point of the first paragraph, that yes, any new job will always be argued as at least one of two roles (because of exactly the point you make in the first bullet), but most cases (including Geomancer) won't go too far beyond that. The second paragraph was pointing out that your essential argument, 'it wouldn't be the first time we'd seen a job added in a role it had never fit before,' could have been applied in such broad strokes as to make any discussion moot, especially when you use Dancer as an "example" (point 3) without really discussing why you even brought it up if you're just going to call it an exception anyway.

5. You used BLU as an example of a role (Limited Jobs) which was outside of the realm of ongoing discussion. I would also point out that HW created a new role (Physical Ranged DPS) to fit the Machinist, and one of the arguments you did point out was people trying to assign RDM as a melee DPS (often as a contrasting "Magical Melee DPS" role) before its release.

1. It wasn't a contradiction so much as an addition.

2. You don't seem to understand the point I was making then, because what I've been arguing against is, at least how I've read it, that Geomancer specifically will not be any role other than Caster. With regards to "it wouldn't be the first time" it can be used that way. I acknowledge it head on and still stand by that. That doesn't mean discussion is moot though. It just means that one path is covered, not that all possible branches of discussion are covered.

3. I'd need you to actually cite where I brought up Blue Mage to get an idea of what my point there was. Bringing something up out of context means you're probably not getting the point.

As an aside, generally my bullet points are based in the order in which I arrive at a thought as I'm reading through your post. Usually this means one per paragraph but sometimes you make multiple points in one paragraph that I want to comment on.

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Originally Posted by MirronTulaxia

I'd need you to actually cite where I brought up Blue Mage to get an idea of what my point there was. Bringing something up out of context means you're probably not getting the point.

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It was literally.

In the post.

I quoted.

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Originally Posted by MirronTulaxia

I mean if we are discussing evidence nothing says it's absolutely going to be a Caster, which was my point. People were calling Red Mage as a tank, as a healer, as a new role, none of that happened. Blue Mage being Limited was completely out of nowhere. Dancer was pegged as a healer, melee, or tank, we got ranged. Dark Knight? Samurai? Gunbreaker? I mean, you can throw a dart at the board of jobs and chances are a noticeable amount of people called the job as something other than what we got. None of this is to say it absolutely will be a healer, but that people are too quick to write it off for reasons that are ultimately tied to their own feelings on what is and isn't valid for it.

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It wasn't "out of context", and that doesn't mean "I'm not getting it," it means you're not communicating your meaning effectively because you keep breaking it down into smaller arguments that often read as contradictory to each other without actually saying your singular thesis that they support, and seemingly forgetting where you were going with it. From what I can tell, you're here to be contrarian and nitpick arguments, not make a singular point toward the main discussion like "It should/shouldn't be a healer," and you don't need to tell us that "They're gonna do what they're gonna do" because all that point does is try to dismiss the discussion.

Your thought process isn't cohesive, or constructive. It's quite frustrating.

1. In the context of what you said I wouldn't take Blue Mage as being a new role, so for me at least your comment of "a new role" was out of nowhere. That's why I figured you were talking about something from another post, not the one you quoted.

2. I've said my main point multiple times, I'm honestly not sure how much clearer I can be. After a certain point the fault in communication isn't on my end but on yours. That you think I'm arguing it should or shouldn't be a healer says that you still aren't getting it, and I really don't know how many ways to reframe the same basic point of "It could be a healer and it wouldn't be weird" until you get that's my stance. That I'm arguing, again, against a stance that I've seen that to me reads as "it can't be anything but a Caster".

3. And I find your thought process difficult to parse so... woo? I'm not sure what you hope to gain by stating your opinion on my writing style, especially again as I don't find yours to be crystal clear. As far as breaking down into smaller arguments that's... kind of how discussions like this go? It's a branching tree. Core argument branches into smaller ones because of how they relate to the core argument, and so on and so forth down the line until you're ten points separated from the original main one. As I've said, both in post 167 and earlier in this thread (to say nothing of my posts where I'm not exceedingly explicit, these are simply examples of what I consider as point blank explicit as I can be without insulting your intelligence), my main points are pretty straight forward. I'm not going to say every single argument directly relates to them, but it's also possible you're reading things as arguments when they're simply comments. Saying "Red Mage and Dancer have multiple roles they could have been" is not an argument, it's simply a comment, but your reply to that comment reads as though you see it as an argument. I certainly have had arguments on Dancers specifically, and that's ultimately tied still to the overall discussion going on with regards to Geomancers, even if it's a couple points removed from the core argument.

To be fair Mirron, most people agree with your point that yes, they have left room for it to be a healer if they wanted to go that route.

Most people arguments with you have been about you thinking they don’t care about their own franchise class fantasy when it comes to classes. And your comments on the lore team just using resources just because, as if the teams don’t have any interaction with eachother and just toss out their work and say “here you go” when there is open communication the whole time.

So yes we all know and agree it “could” be a healer. We just don’t think it would be a good idea based on what they have presented. And there are much better fits for the role.

To: MirronTulaxia

What do you want the Geomancer to be in ffxiv?

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Originally Posted by BasicBlake

To be fair Mirron, most people agree with your point that yes, they have left room for it to be a healer if they wanted to go that route.

Most people arguments with you have been about you thinking they don’t care about their own franchise class fantasy when it comes to classes. And your comments on the lore team just using resources just because, as if the teams don’t have any interaction with eachother and just toss out their work and say “here you go” when there is open communication the whole time.

So yes we all know and agree it “could” be a healer. We just don’t think it would be a good idea based on what they have presented. And there are much better fits for the role.

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1. I certainly don't get the feeling that they agree with that concept. I'm fairly sure you yourself have said things along the lines of it not working as a healer and it can only be a Caster. I could go digging through your posts if you'd like and find all instances of that.

2a. With regards to "not caring about class fantasy", my argument is again that it's purely subjective, and ultimately something made up as a term here, specifically. We have no idea how exactly the dev team feels about jobs. I would argue that at least in terms of how much they care about it being similar to past games they'll bend things so it fits the game rather than care too much about how well it fits the fantasy. I can point to multiple jobs like that.

2b. My point with the lore team is that we already know that the lore team doesn't take precedence when it comes to these things. The developers come up with an idea they like, and then the lore team figures out how to make it happen. Coupled with that, again, is the fact that none of the things you've said indicate Geomancers are Casters in terms of lore read that way to me. Boss characters almost never do healing as a focus. Enemy mobs only really have dedicated healers if they're basically other Spoken. Kyokuho could fix the barrier because the guy is worse at being a Geomancer than his grandfather was. And the fact that the one actual Geomancer we have is using a fraction of the knowledge really says they could introduce a new Geomancer and explain any lore confusion if it differs from him (given he has all of three spells not exactly hard to just fit those in though either) by saying "well he only knew a bit about being a Geomancer and you have a fancy new soul stone".

3. And I don't agree. To me, again, saying Geomancers are so similar to White Mages that they have to be another job is, if we're going to talk about job fantasy, a travesty. No job should be so similar in terms of job fantasy that you can mistake it for another unless it's something like White Mage to Devout, and even then there is an FF where they managed to make the two different in notable ways. Geomancer is not a direct upgrade to White Mage, or vice verse, they have no direct connection. So the job fantasy for them is entirely different, and that isn't dependent on the role, the weapon, or the elements.

To: Eric

Beyond wanting it to have something to do with terrain I'm not sure I have any strong preferences for anything with Geomancer. My point has never been "I want Geomancer to be a healer" but again "it's not unreasonable for Geomancer to be a healer". In terms of possible jobs I consider it better than the current popular proposal for Healer but that's really about the extent of my feelings n the matter.

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Originally Posted by MirronTulaxia

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But you’re ignoring all evidence to the contrary. To this day all of the Jobs in each role are different from each other, as you even admitted. YoshiP himself has even gone on record to say that he was considering SAM for Heavensward but decided not to because he didn’t want multiple Eastern themed Jobs back to back. SAM and NIN have different Job Fantasies, and I wouldn't be surprised if this was also the reason why they didn't go with Onmyoji. Job aesthetics and core themes are clearly something they take very seriously. There is little to no reason why they would include a second druid-style healer who’s whole identity is their reliance on nature elementals that uses the same 3 elements another Job in the same category already uses.

Nobody here is saying that they’re “literally” the same Job. What we’re saying is that they have too much in common to warrant putting them in the same role, so they should be a caster instead otherwise it’d be wasted potential.

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Originally Posted by MirronTulaxia

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I have also personally said "I can see where you are coming from but I disagree because X".

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Originally Posted by GucciSan

But you’re ignoring all evidence to the contrary. To this day all of the Jobs in each role are different from each other, as you even admitted. YoshiP himself has even gone on record to say that he was considering SAM for Heavensward but decided not to because he didn’t want multiple Eastern themed Jobs back to back. SAM and NIN have different Job Fantasies, and I wouldn't be surprised if this was also the reason why they didn't go with Onmyoji. Job aesthetics and core themes are clearly something they take very seriously. There is little to no reason why they would include a second druid-style healer who’s whole identity is their reliance on nature elementals that uses the same 3 elements another Job in the same category already uses.

Nobody here is saying that they’re “literally” the same Job. What we’re saying is that they have too much in common to warrant putting them in the same role, so they should be a caster instead otherwise it’d be wasted potential.

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And I disagree. Plain and simple. Again, if Geomancer is so similar to White Mage that they can't function in the same role then it shouldn't be added. I, personally, don't think they are. But if you're adamant that's the case the only reasonable answer left is not to add it. No other job in this game currently would be too similar to another even if they shared a role.

As well I feel like you don't realize that almost every job, healers included, use different aethers. If you're saying another job using wind, water, and earth isn't good then Scholar wouldn't have been added, because it has spells that use wind aether, water aether, and earth aether. You can tell by the color of the spell casting.

Edit: There is actually an important thing you said, and how it ties into job fantasy. Using what you're saying, Eastern is a category of Job Fantasy. Personally I wouldn't agree, but as you're using the devs words on the matter as an example of it then it's the only reasonable conclusion. We have three Eastern Melee DPS. If that's an example of job fantasy then the only issue would be adding jobs one after the other. So even if they still consider White Mage to be a nature job (which is very arguable) then it's moot because White Mage was an at launch job and so there isn't remotely too much overlap in terms of time frame.

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Originally Posted by MirronTulaxia

And I disagree. Plain and simple. Again, if Geomancer is so similar to White Mage that they can't function in the same role then it shouldn't be added. I, personally, don't think they are. But if you're adamant that's the case the only reasonable answer left is not to add it. No other job in this game currently would be too similar to another even if they shared a role.

As well I feel like you don't realize that almost every job, healers included, use different aethers. If you're saying another job using wind, water, and earth isn't good then Scholar wouldn't have been added, because it has spells that use wind aether, water aether, and earth aether. You can tell by the color of the spell casting.

Edit: There is actually an important thing you said, and how it ties into job fantasy. Using what you're saying, Eastern is a category of Job Fantasy. Personally I wouldn't agree, but as you're using the devs words on the matter as an example of it then it's the only reasonable conclusion. We have three Eastern Melee DPS. If that's an example of job fantasy then the only issue would be adding jobs one after the other. So even if they still consider White Mage to be a nature job (which is very arguable) then it's moot because White Mage was an at launch job and so there isn't remotely too much overlap in terms of time frame.

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I don't know if i would consider the phrase "if it can't be added into a role it's never been before and not be too similar to something else it shouldn't be added" to be that valid. Just put it somewhere else... The argument is Qi of Water/Wind/Stone and Malediction of Water/Wind/Stone being too similar to Wind/Stone for white mage I personally think is a very valid reason to not have it be a cohealer with white mage honestly. It would be like adding Sage or Devout or whatever that class is called in the offshoot tactics games as a healer.

This is going to come off really weird but bear with me, or adding Mystic Knight/Rune Fencer as a caster. You would now have two classes enchanting a blade with magic in the same role. You'll argue and say "But why would mystic knight be a caster?" which would be countered with "Geomancer has never been a healer" so the argument is valid. Geomancer and white mage both healing would be like red mage and mystic knight/rune fencer both being in the caster role. They are both great classes and it would be great to have them all in game, just not stepping on eachother's toes.

The argument with Monk/Samurai/Ninja would be closer if all three of them had multiple of the same abilities but just a different name.

As for one of the Far Eastern melee, wasn’t Samurai considered for tank at one point? Not in a “dancer healer” aspect but ACTUALLY considered but it never ended up as a tank because it didn’t fit the class and it’s role?

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Originally Posted by MirronTulaxia

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It’s not that the spells are similar; it’s that they’re both Jobs that ask nature spirits for help. No other Job in the game does this. It’s WHM’s unique aesthetic monopoly. And SCH isn’t a druid. It never has anything to do with the forest elementals and it doesn’t attune to nature for more power like WHM and GEO both would. As a WHM they taught you about the importance of the Gridania elementals, and how you need to draw upon them for healing power. That was the whole theme they built from 1-70. You’d get essentially the same lessons with GEO except with Tengu.

SCH and SMN are literal examples of what we’ve been suggesting. They sat at a design meeting and thought, “These two Jobs are similar, let’s split them to avoid redundancy”, or “Hey, we have this Job, let’s make a Healer/DPS variant and take this same idea in a whole new direction”. And it works better this way, because now for people that are really into the idea of pet classes/Summons in Final Fantasy, they now have two methods in which to achieve that in opposite ends of the spectrum. It provides variety, consistency, and avoids redundancy all at the same time.

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Originally Posted by BasicBlake

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1. Okay? And I would consider it valid. A job should be able to stand on its own two legs, regardless of role.

2. Stone/Wind are effectively removed from White Mage at the highest level. That may be more than enough to not overlap.

3. Or like adding Scholar? Which is the same basic job as Sage just less efficient?

4. Mystic Knight could be a Caster, I still wouldn't call it the same thing as Red Mage. Rune Fencer and Red Mage could both tank in XI and they weren't the same job after all.

5. I can actually point to specific healing moves from Geomancer. Can you point to any spell casting moves from Mystic Knight? If you can't then it isn't equivalent.

6. The argument with Monk/Samurai/Ninja isn't one I made, it's one your side made. It's supposed to be a reference to how the developers treat "job fantasies". If it is then it clearly doesn't work the way you're all implying. And if it's not then it's an entirely pointless addition to the discussion. And currently White Mage and Geomancer have zero abilities that are the same but with a different name.

7. As far as Samurai as a tank goes from what I recall it was less "it couldn't be a tank" and more "Yoshida didn't want it to be one", which is a very important distinction.

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Originally Posted by MirronTulaxia

1. Okay? And I would consider it valid. A job should be able to stand on its own two legs, regardless of role.

2. Stone/Wind are effectively removed from White Mage at the highest level. That may be more than enough to not overlap.

3. Or like adding Scholar? Which is the same basic job as Sage just less efficient?

4. Mystic Knight could be a Caster, I still wouldn't call it the same thing as Red Mage. Rune Fencer and Red Mage could both tank in XI and they weren't the same job after all.

5. I can actually point to specific healing moves from Geomancer. Can you point to any spell casting moves from Mystic Knight? If you can't then it isn't equivalent.

6. The argument with Monk/Samurai/Ninja isn't one I made, it's one your side made. It's supposed to be a reference to how the developers treat "job fantasies". If it is then it clearly doesn't work the way you're all implying. And if it's not then it's an entirely pointless addition to the discussion. And currently White Mage and Geomancer have zero abilities that are the same but with a different name.

7. As far as Samurai as a tank goes from what I recall it was less "it couldn't be a tank" and more "Yoshida didn't want it to be one", which is a very important distinction.

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A class having a heal doesn’t make it a healer though. It has never been a “healer”. Mog’s dance isn’t enough to base a healing class around.

You can give Tifa nothing but Cure materia and we still wouldn’t have reason to make monk a healer.

Could Mystic Knight be a caster? It’s possible. I know your whole thing is about subjectivity and “anything can be anything”. But they won’t add Mystic Knight as a blade enchanting caster role in this game. Red Mage was a terrible tank in XI. Could Rune Fencer stand in the back line with the mages and effectively cast on the boss?

He didn’t want Samurai to be a tank, I wonder why.

Actually Mirron please don’t respond to what I wrote, we aren’t getting anywhere.

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Originally Posted by BasicBlake

A class having a heal doesn’t make it a healer though. It has never been a “healer”. Mog’s dance isn’t enough to base a healing class around.

You can give Tifa nothing but Cure materia and we still wouldn’t have reason to make monk a healer.

Could Mystic Knight be a caster? It’s possible. I know your whole thing is about subjectivity and “anything can be anything”. But they won’t add Mystic Knight as a blade enchanting caster role in this game. Red Mage was a terrible tank in XI. Could Rune Fencer stand in the back line with the mages and effectively cast on the boss?

He didn’t want Samurai to be a tank, I wonder why.

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1. No job has been a healer outside of White Mage though. Scholar certainly wasn't known for being one. You've suggested Time Mage as a healer, and the only heal it has to its name is Regen. You're just being hypocritical.

2. I mean, outside of Limits I wouldn't consider any job to be something. Though you raise a funny point in that Aerith certainly feels very much like a Geomancer, talking to the planet and such (was even her discussed job class).

3. You miss the point still. Rune Fencer being a Caster would still not be the same thing as a Red Mage. The "job fantasy" is different. You keep reducing jobs to extremely broad generalizations. And in terms of roles when it comes to DPS I don't really think anything should be anything. It's why I made the point about Dancer.

4. Given it was likely intended as a tank in FFXI, it's got precedence. Certainly not like Squall was tank like.

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Originally Posted by MirronTulaxia

Again, if Geomancer is so similar to White Mage that they can't function in the same role then it shouldn't be added.

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Based on the context of GucciSan's post, your response reads as though you're saying "If Geomancer is too (aesthetically or mechanically) similar to WHM, a healer, then it shouldn't be added to the game period, even as a DPS."

Which... has no other way to be read, but I can't wait for you to tell me I'm misinterpreting you after this.

Frankly, I find that entirely unreasonable of a conclusion, especially when you're simultaneously arguing that otherwise, there would be no reason not to add it as a healer. But you're totally not advocating for it as a healer. In fact you're not advocating for anything at all!

Lemme give some examples for why this premise is wrong:

• Red Mage and Scholar have each been classical mixes of Black Mage and White Mage, with Scholar leaning heavily on magic and Red Mage balancing it with melee. As a result, Red Mage's brand of magic shares aesthetic similarities with each of the other jobs listed, but is mechanically separated enough to fit in its own niche as a caster DPS.
• Samurai and Ninja both are melee DPS jobs with heavy Eastern themes, but mechanically and lore-wise have significant enough differences to justify separate positions within the roster.
• At a stretch, one could also argue that Dark Knight's form of magic appears to have the same properties as Scholar's attack spells, being focused on dark energy, decay, and the disruption of biological processes. Similarly you could argue that Bard and Dancer both utilize entertainment to channel buff effects, and Gunbreaker and Machinist both utilize ballistic weapons, with Machinist even giving up reload mechanics to Gunbreaker.
• Oh, and of course, Scholar and Summoner each explicitly utilize the same properties for their respective familiars/Egis and share similar mechanics, but are separated by role, exactly like what we've been saying with regards to parallels between GEO and WHM.

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As well I feel like you don't realize

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Based on your overuse of this phrase whenever you post and your contrarian attitude throughout this thread, you appear to have either a very high opinion of yourself, a very low opinion of everyone else, or both.

Perhaps if everyone else is "missing the point" of the things you say, maybe consider the common factor is... you?

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

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It's not worth it, he has stated numerous times that he "doesn't care the role that it is" he's just here to argue whatever statement you say. He's here to nitpick for the sake of nitpicking.

No matter who tries to explain what people mean by class fantasy and mechanics he will just say "I don't see it that way so it doesn't exist". They could add the 4th caster who's main mechanic revolved around carbuncle and he'd say that's fine because summoner have the other egis.

ANYWAY. I'm more interested in talking about Geomancer, not arguing with Mirron about semantics and definitions and his perceptions of older FF games.

Has anyone found out why Kyo only focuses on wind and water? His school for Geomancy is now functional and he is teaching them in the art of "Wind and Water" only. I guess it could come down to mainland Geomancy vs Hingashi but it seems odd for a class so focused on only three elements as is, to have an npc open a school only focusing on two of them.

I have been looking all over but I can't actually find anything but it's really irritating me that we have no explanation (yet).

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Originally Posted by BasicBlake

Has anyone found out why Kyo only focuses on wind and water? His school for Geomancy is now functional and he is teaching them in the art of "Wind and Water" only. I guess it could come down to mainland Geomancy vs Hingashi but it seems odd for a class so focused on only three elements as is, to have an npc open a school only focusing on two of them.

I have been looking all over but I can't actually find anything but it's really irritating me that we have no explanation (yet).

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Because Geomancer's Japanese name is Feng Shui Soldier, and Feng Shui literally translates to "wind-water".

I haven't heard anything about him only teaching the arts of Wind and Water though, just that "of Wind and Water" is his title.

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

Because Geomancer's Japanese name is Feng Shui Soldier, and Feng Shui literally translates to "wind-water".

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So the Stone part of the barrier of Kugane, them being masters of wind, water and stone in the lore book, the stone portion of Swallow's Compass was just a red herring?

I just found it weird that something that is said to focus so much on the three elements has an npc focusing on two.

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Originally Posted by BasicBlake

So the Stone part of the barrier of Kugane, them being masters of wind, water and stone in the lore book, the stone portion of Swallow's Compass was just a red herring?

I just found it weird that something that is said to focus so much on the three elements has an npc focusing on two.

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Sure, but I haven't seen anything suggesting that he wouldn't teach them Earth magic as well? He seems to utilize all three elements himself, and I just figured his English title was a result of direct (albeit flowery) translation.

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

Sure, but I haven't seen anything suggesting that he wouldn't teach them Earth magic as well? He seems to utilize all three elements himself, and I just figured his English title was a result of direct (albeit flowery) translation.

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I had just watched the Astro 80 quest last night where he says the line "something something I am teaching them the ways of wind and water" which is probably just translation side. He's probably Kyo of Feng Shui and teaching them Feng Shui at the school.

I rewatched Foxfire to make sure he actually uses Qi of Earth I was second guessing myself. xD Also while watching we see he uses two different elemental spells Qi of Wind and Qi or Earth, has a heal Qi of Water and what looks to be an instant cast after some Winds that he casts? I could have been seeing things because youtube is only so great a resource when it's a job quest and they are focused on fighting and you're trying to watch what the guy with the pink boots is doing.

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Originally Posted by SeikishiYuuki

Side Note: I know 0 Astro who want old cards back, I'll admit sometimes the current card set is less interesting but it is substantially better mechanically.

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You might want to check the "A summary of healer issues thread, some posts around the Has anyone quit healing thread, or just scroll around in the healer forums to the other pages. It's strewn all over the place, and the first post in the "summary of healer issues" has the AST card variety mentioned. Yeah, it's better mechanically currently, but it says a lot when the card system is substantially better in terms of efficiency / usage than before, but less people play it than before and more people turn away from the job itself.

It's also partly why healers as a whole started quitting in droves as a healer - gameplay became too bland.

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Originally Posted by AnotherPerson

You might want to check the "A summary of healer issues thread, some posts around the Has anyone quit healing thread, or just scroll around in the healer forums to the other pages. It's strewn all over the place, and the first post in the "summary of healer issues" has the AST card variety mentioned. Yeah, it's better mechanically currently, but it says a lot when the card system is substantially better in terms of efficiency / usage than before, but less people play it than before and more people turn away from the job itself.

It's also partly why healers as a whole started quitting in droves as a healer - gameplay became too bland.

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Oh no, I fully agree with Healers right now are not as fun to play our kits as Astro's are incredibly powerful and active but healing in content is almost entirely soloable so one of you ends up just spamming Glare. I don't think card variety is going to help its more likely that healing as a whole within the system needs to change in 6.0

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Originally Posted by SeikishiYuuki

Oh no, I fully agree with Healers right now are not as fun to play our kits as Astro's are incredibly powerful and active but healing in content is almost entirely soloable so one of you ends up just spamming Glare. I don't think card variety is going to help its more likely that healing as a whole within the system needs to change in 6.0

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Yeah it is more of a systemic issure than a Job issue, The best way to fix this would be to either roll back some of those changes or force encounters to necessitate more healing

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

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1. My stance on Job Fantasy, insofar as you guys keep treating it as a thing, is that if any job is too similar to another, regardless of role, then there is an issue. I don't believe Geomancer is too similar to White Mage. They could both be Healer, Tank, DPS, whatever, I would not consider them the same thing. If they are, then they shouldn't be added. Because I don't believe any job is to similar to another regardless of role, and I would rather not see that change.

2. I mean, you are misinterpreting it because you're fixating on specifically Geomancer as a healer when I don't see the job fantasy as dependent on roles.

3. It's perfectly reasonable. If a job is so shallow it can't stand on its own two legs then it shouldn't be added. Add a job that has more depth. I don't agree with the stance that Geomancer is shallow, but if that's the stance you guys want to take then so be it. As for what I'm advocating for I've said it several times. I even gave you a specific post that you could check. If you can't be bothered to read what's being said then you're really just doing what you're accusing me of.

4a. Red Mage and Scholar have a separate job fantasy that is independent of role, so I'm not sure how this is proving my premise wrong. Though Scholar is not exactly consistent. One need only look at TA2 to see that calling it "Black and White Magic" isn't an absolute.

4b. Samurai and Ninja are as different as White Mage and Geomancer to me, so not sure the argument you're making makes sense.

4c. Again, all of these jobs have a unique core aspect that differentiates them and would be the same regardless of the role they're in. Like Bard and Dancer, which are both in the same role (and even same subcategory of the role).

4d. And as I said, Scholar and Summoner represent different job fantasies, so even if Scholar was a Caster or Summoner a Healer they are different things and can stand on their own just fine.

5. Saying I feel something is not the same as saying it's absolutely true. And none of what I'm doing is opposing the popular option for what it is. Though combined with this and your last sentence it seems like you're just making an appeal to popularity.

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Originally Posted by SeikishiYuuki

its more likely that healing as a whole within the system needs to change in 6.0

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Personally I'd be down to see such reforms as:

• WHM being reworked into largely a GCD-based direct healer through the Cure line, like having their HoT effects reworked into buffs to healing received
• SCH reworked into a stance healer, with Selene reworked to focus on counterattack damage and Emergency Tactics reworked into a toggle, so that you're compelled to change "formation" with the situation; could also use some button consolidation
• AST losing Sects and becoming the dedicated HoT healer (calling to Time Mage's use of effects like Regen), with an emphasis on effects that stagger and slow down incoming damage to make the HoTs manage it; this could also pair well with the cards system, giving you windows to focus on spreading buffs while HoTs tick away
• A new Battle Healer-type job focused on fueling healing resources via damage output (like a Drain/Osmose effect); a high uptime attacker but only bursts of potency

... But I'm also weird and think there should be a push towards emphasizing GCD and single-target heals. And that Synastry could be displaced from AST onto maybe WHM or a new job (a Drain-based healer with Synastry could be wild).

At the very least I don't think GEO poses opportunities for a truly unique healing model, while it would have a lot of leeway as a DPS. Perhaps as a stance-based caster, or a displacement of DoTs from SMN so they can focus on their pets.

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

Personally I'd be down to see such reforms as:

• WHM being reworked into largely a GCD-based direct healer through the Cure line, like having their HoT effects reworked into buffs to healing received
• SCH reworked into a stance healer, with Selene reworked to focus on counterattack damage and Emergency Tactics reworked into a toggle, so that you're compelled to change "formation" with the situation; could also use some button consolidation
• AST losing Sects and becoming the dedicated HoT healer (calling to Time Mage's use of effects like Regen), with an emphasis on effects that stagger and slow down incoming damage to make the HoTs manage it; this could also pair well with the cards system, giving you windows to focus on spreading buffs while HoTs tick away
• A new Battle Healer-type job focused on fueling healing resources via damage output (like a Drain/Osmose effect); a high uptime attacker but only bursts of potency

... But I'm also weird and think there should be a push towards emphasizing GCD and single-target heals. And that Synastry could be displaced from AST onto maybe WHM or a new job (a Drain-based healer with Synastry could be wild).

At the very least I don't think GEO poses opportunities for a truly unique healing model, while it would have a lot of leeway as a DPS. Perhaps as a stance-based caster, or a displacement of DoTs from SMN so they can focus on their pets.

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The removal of Ast sects just to give the gimmick to Sch is kind of along the lines we have been arguing with M*rron about, how it would feel kinda cheap to take from the one healing class and put it on another. But I do feel like a new "battle healer" is coming, but I know you want Necromancer where I want whatever Bajsaljen ends up being called outside of "battle medic".

Changing to a GCD healing system would require a lot, and I mean a lot a lot of overhaul of the battle system, which hell, it's not like we're getting much content these days anyway. I'm just pointing out they really would have to change encounter design from the ground up. How damage goes out, potencies adjusted, enrages timers changes, dps would also have to be tweaked to accommodate.

Which every mock up I see of Geomancer people have come up with some very cool ideas from positionals to cycling elements to end in the large ancient magic finishers, to juggling/balancing elemental gauges for attunement. So I can only imagine what the pros are coming up with at SE.

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Originally Posted by BasicBlake

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Fair with regards to SCH/AST, I'm just noting that it would be fitting for SCH since the building blocks are already in place. Selene doesn't do anything that couldn't be handled with Egi Glamour, and SCH's healing falls behind the others – healing through Living Dead is near impossible for them – in no small part because of the limits of their shield-focused heals. As Seiki said, NoctSect is on its last legs for AST regardless; it's not simply about taking one away to give to another job, it's about killing two birds with one stone, trimming excess from AST and refocusing SCH using a similar principle. (Though I wouldn't completely compare the idea to Sects, since what I had in mind would include allowing you to toggle Shielding vs Direct Healing in-combat based on your immediate needs while still emphasizing SCH's unique barrier spells, instead of creating a Flex Healer like AST.)
As for Necromancer... I'm not dogmatically attached to it, and I would be happy with any healer that offers unique mechanics. A dark-oriented healer just happens to fit the slot perfectly and "necromancer" has a strong theme to build around. I wouldn't be so against suggestions like Chemist if anyone could convince me it could be unique outside of "throws potions".

I agree that a push to GCD heals would require changing a lot, but at the same time, most of the healing community agrees that a lot needs to change anyway; too many tools for too situational use.

But I digress.

With only three full casters, there's loads of untapped potential for rotations, so GEO gets a lot of leeway. Plus the only other full job with water attacks is NIN, weirdly enough.

Just gonna jump in here to back up the "Geomancer as Caster"-side of the argument. While they certainly could find a way to make Healer-GEO work, the jobs history makes it seem to me like it'd fit better into a DPS role. It's never been much of a healer before and the vast majority of iterations were more DPS/Debuffers, and I'd rather they stick with that than try to re-invent the wheel when its unnecessary.
There's also Jobs like FFTA's Elementalist which are basically offshoots of the GEO concept (and fill the same DPS/Debuffing role) that would function well to fill in any skill gaps that a purely GEO-inspired skillset would leave.
(Btw, can we all stop forgetting that classic GEO technically had access to all elements through different Terrain/Weather and would thus be a prime candidate for a true elemental caster? Sure, FFXIV's version points out Earth/Wind/Water specifically, but seeing as Ishgardian Astrologians are very different from the AST we got I dont see that as an issue :P)

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Technically off topic but:

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Originally Posted by BasicBlake

Changing to a GCD healing system would require a lot, and I mean a lot a lot of overhaul of the battle system, which hell, it's not like we're getting much content these days anyway. I'm just pointing out they really would have to change encounter design from the ground up. How damage goes out, potencies adjusted, enrages timers changes, dps would also have to be tweaked to accommodate.

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Forgive my bluntness, but this is nonsense. Right now most encounters in the game have healing requirements that are so low that they can be met through OGCDs alone while full time DPSing, which is a big part of why healing is so boring atm. And even the encounters with harder requirements tend to have a lot of healing downtime, spending a few more GCDs on actual healing would at best provide more variety rather then cause any mechanical problems.
We're playing a game where Damage (especially partywide damage) is mostly coming in predictable spikes, and due to that fact all that would really need to be done to shift to a more GCD-focused healing design is reduce the overall number of oGCDs. OGCDs don't need to go away ofc, they just need to be more a limited resource rather then the main focus of the healing kits as they are now.
There is nothing that needs to change about encounter design, healing predictable damage per GCDs instead of using an oGCD while full time DPSing wouldn't change much, if anything, really.
Healer-DPS doesn't need to be adjusted past making up whatever is lost through adjusting whatever skills are already there or adding back skills previously removed or (obviously) new skills, possibly of a similar fashion as WHMs Afflatus Misery (i.e. skills that reimburse the caster for using GCDs on healing).

What gets often lost in these healing conversations is that prior to SB healing was a mostly GCD-focused endeavor, and even in Stormblood healing was a lot more balanced between GCDs and oGCDs, and the game functioned perfectly fine. Shadowbringers really didn't change enough (if anything) about encounter design to warrant as many oGCDs either, so I don't see how a shift back to a slightly more GCD-focused system would cause issues.
It's also important to note that SE seems perfectly willing to change whatever few encounter would "break" due to role changes (which would likely only affect Ultimates anyway), given that that's exactly what they did at the start of ShB to account for the Tank changes.

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Originally Posted by ArcaneCarbuncle

(Btw, can we all stop forgetting that classic GEO technically had access to all elements through different Terrain/Weather and would thus be a prime candidate for a true elemental caster? Sure, FFXIV's version points out Earth/Wind/Water specifically, but seeing as Ishgardian Astrologians are very different from the AST we got I dont see that as an issue :P)

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I don't think anybody was saying other elements are completely off the table – with the chambers of Swallow's Compass ending in "Heart of the Dragon" with a fire-throwing tengu inside, I could see a rotation built around cycling between Earth, Wind and Water to end with a massive Fire finisher (perhaps magma-based to maintain distinction from the fire spells flung by other casters), much as BLM and RDM build up to non-elemental finishers. Plus it could tie in well with the classical elements, even though Feng Shui uses the five Chinese elements (excluding wind, and including wood which has the same place, and metal).

If you mean all six though, I should point out none of the dedicated casters practice more than four elements – largely because more than three isn't really necessary for all practical purposes (hence why SMN has only 3 Egis despite six pure-elemental primals), and RDM's dual model essentially gives it clones of really only three spells. So while Ice and Lightning aren't off the table, they wouldn't entirely be unnecessary.

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

I don't think anybody was saying other elements are completely off the table – with the chambers of Swallow's Compass ending in "Heart of the Dragon" with a fire-throwing tengu inside, I could see a rotation built around cycling between Earth, Wind and Water to end with a massive Fire finisher (perhaps magma-based to maintain distinction from the fire spells flung by other casters), much as BLM and RDM build up to non-elemental finishers. Plus it could tie in well with the classical elements, even though Feng Shui uses the five Chinese elements (excluding wind, and including wood which has the same place, and metal).

If you mean all six though, I should point out none of the dedicated casters practice more than four elements – largely because more than three isn't really necessary for all practical purposes (hence why SMN has only 3 Egis despite six pure-elemental primals), and RDM's dual model essentially gives it clones of really only three spells. So while Ice and Lightning aren't off the table, they wouldn't entirely be unnecessary.

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I assumed Heart of the Dragon was merely because Swallow’s Compass is at the heart of the dragon named mountain range running throughout Yanxia. And while you follow the path of the dungeon you cross the water of the One River to the Fanged Crescent with is also know as the Dragon’s Head.

But I do agree that some elements but not all sounds plausible, because of the break between Geomancer and Ony. But both those schools of magic seem to blend and separate depending on where you look in the game. I feel like the only npc we have using only three elements, plus the Swallow’s Compass being the original Geomancer school they probably want to focus on their elements.

Granted they could always come out of left field and give them all elements with the blending of the two schools completely. I feel like fitting 6 elements into a hot bar sounds like a nightmare. And with how streamlined and smooth the new classes have felt I’m sure they could figure something out. But it does sound like a lot.

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

I don't think anybody was saying other elements are completely off the table – with the chambers of Swallow's Compass ending in "Heart of the Dragon" with a fire-throwing tengu inside, I could see a rotation built around cycling between Earth, Wind and Water to end with a massive Fire finisher (perhaps magma-based to maintain distinction from the fire spells flung by other casters), much as BLM and RDM build up to non-elemental finishers. Plus it could tie in well with the classical elements, even though Feng Shui uses the five Chinese elements (excluding wind, and including wood which has the same place, and metal).

If you mean all six though, I should point out none of the dedicated casters practice more than four elements – largely because more than three isn't really necessary for all practical purposes (hence why SMN has only 3 Egis despite six pure-elemental primals), and RDM's dual model essentially gives it clones of really only three spells. So while Ice and Lightning aren't off the table, they wouldn't entirely be unnecessary.

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Well, there is so much discussion going on about GEO being oh-so-similar to Conjurer that it seems to me that people are forgetting that the other elements were part of the classic skillset as well. So I thought I'd put it back on the table.
Real-Life Feng Shui doesn't need to have much bearing on how GEO would be designed here, seeing as in-game it seems all but accepted anywhere that there are six elements; and other games' iterations of the job also mainly focus on the whole terrain/weather-gimmick which had nothing to do with Real-Life Feng-Shui either.
I also feel it's important to point out that AST for instance, while being based on RL-Astrology, takes plenty of liberties with the concept, so GEO can take as many liberties with Feng-Shui as it needs.
In many ways, I find this games elemental cycle(s) already reminicent of the Feng-Shui elements, but maybe thats just me.

Mechanically there are many ways to include all elements, they could for instance create a dual-rotation - one on the GCD, one on the oGCD - based on the two elemental cycles we've learned about.

Ultimately though I think a full elemental caster is a concept that they haven't explored before (other than Y'shtolas Sorceress), and might be an interesting concept for them to take given GEO's history.
And I think they should look at the entire History of the job should they ever choose to create it, not just the bits and pieces of lore they created when they still tried to shoehorn GEO into AST.
Ignoring an otherwise interesting concept because 'practicality' also seems like a waste, considering the elements are purely visual in this game anyway.