Summoner is doing too much in 5.10

Dont know what data you are talking about titan savage 5.1 only data? A data that being taken since thrusday dont represent all BLM, BLM still top if you count 5.0 BLM, which is fair since they dont get any number change, the best of blm os probably done their weekly in tuesday where act still cant be used.

Hades with lots of moving and cutscene is not a good comparrison, SMN have their burst skill cooldown moving while BLM is losing enochian in that fight, which is unique (yoshida say it himself which is why we get 2 totem instead of 1)

E4S:
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...s=68&bracket=2

Hades Ex:
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statistics/28/#boss=1049

I would generally avoid using Trials. They're designed first and foremost for presentation.

truthfully, I prefer looking at the 99% or max%, since those are the one we actually want to achieve and seem possible when trying to optimise..

but still believe Blm is overall a tick to low compared to Smn..

but its low as Smn or Sam where in 5.0.., just a a bit (unless you do speedkills at 99, Smn will be the Dps choice with additional Rez and Utility)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kabooa

I would generally avoid using Trials. They're designed first and foremost for presentation.

---

Hades Ex is an example of how fights are getting more more (or longet) heavy movements.., same goes a bit for some new 24 man.. and expect the trend to continue in Ultimate and next savage

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by remiff

I did not say that square enix should not adjust a too strong job, I meant that they repeat the same error in the sense that there will always be too strong jobs in the game .

---

Again, you're stating the obvious, so what's your point? That a .01% difference is fundamentally the same as a 10% difference, and thus we shouldn't complain about imbalances of any degree? What?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Darsien

Who cares? Square has said that class difficulty doesn't dictate output. Also both classes are straightforward and their rotation concepts are easy to perform. Don't kid yourself.

---

Unless you see that opinion coming from a combined panel of the raid design team and our trio of job designers, it's almost certainly just lip-service to best placate the most vocal portions of the playerbase. That's been the only consistency across their combat design statements. Virtually everything else has contradicted itself over time.

After some general thought, I'm starting to wonder SMN's impact on the meta given their buffs. Even if this is merely the first two weeks of 5.1, I can already see potential Dual Caster, Single Ranged, Single Melee comps given how the data's laid out on the Site That Shall Not Be Named. This potentially can lead to MNK and SAM having to fight for a spot since SMN's rDPS and aDPS are up there to compete with even the Melee. If anything, SE needs to check out their data points and make sure SMN isn't toppling over DRG or MNK in terms of damage and rDPS, since that's literally where we're sitting at right now in terms of what SMN can bring.

Note: Who remembers 4.1? Because this feels like it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

After some general thought, I'm starting to wonder SMN's impact on the meta given their buffs. Even if this is merely the first two weeks of 5.1, I can already see potential Dual Caster, Single Ranged, Single Melee comps given how the data's laid out on the Site That Shall Not Be Named. This potentially can lead to MNK and SAM having to fight for a spot since SMN's rDPS and aDPS are up there to compete with even the Melee. If anything, SE needs to check out their data points and make sure SMN isn't toppling over DRG or MNK in terms of damage and rDPS, since that's literally where we're sitting at right now in terms of what SMN can bring.

Note: Who remembers 4.1? Because this feels like it.

---

considering the physical ranged are so far below every other class even with the 1% buff you would be better of taking a second melee compared to a single physical ranged if you allready got 2 casters i fail to see why you would think melees are the one in danger of losing a spot, also having 1 melee spot as a given (for the 1% buff which is actually useful as their dps is right up their aswell as melee lb) 3 other melee classes potentially having to actually fight for a spot with a second caster ? that thought really is horrific, absolutely unrealistic but having melees actually compete for the last slot (after they got the mandatory safe first spot every dps type should have and which ranged are in a lot more realistic position to lose to double caster) is indeed a terrible thought

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Akiudo

considering the physical ranged are so far below every other class even with the 1% buff you would be better of taking a second melee compared to a single physical ranged if you allready got 2 casters i fail to see why you would think melees are the one in danger of losing a spot, also having 1 melee spot as a given (for the 1% buff which is actually useful as their dps is right up their aswell as melee lb) 3 other melee classes potentially having to actually fight for a spot with a second caster ? that thought really is horrific, absolutely unrealistic but having melees actually compete for the last slot (after they got the mandatory safe first spot every dps type should have and which ranged are in a lot more realistic position to lose to double caster) is indeed a terrible thought

---

You misunderstand that in a composition, Physical Ranged are the only DPS that can reduce raid-wide damage by 10%, compared to the likes of Feint and Addle which only affect enemy stats(provides circa 6-7% Damage Type Mitigation). On top of that, also providing buffs in the case of BRD/DNC, or outputting raw damage as MCH. Even then, you want at least one to alleviate healers so they can DPS more. if you replace that with SMN, you're basically trading off that mitigation and buffs for Devotion, which is just a 5% Damage Buff for the raid. It may sound rather out of place at first, but the data speaks for itself. If SE makes any small changes come 4.11 or 4.15, we'll see what they do to fix the situation.

Smn also has "ever lasting flight", when Phönix is out... a healing buff on nearby members (HOT effect)

- dps buff, aetherpac
- healunf buff, ELF
- rez

Smn is like a Mnk somehow, dps buff + healing utility (+ rez).

you cant time Everlasting Flight like other mitigations or CDs (like Mantra)...

but Phönix is not seldomly up, exactly when healing is needed and nice to have...

healers with Smn can answer better, how it feels to have Phönix in fights (with statics or farm parties)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shiroe

Smn also has "ever lasting flight", when Phönix is out... a healing buff on nearby members (HOT effect)

- dps buff, aetherpac
- healunf buff, ELF
- rez

Smn is like a Mnk somehow, dps buff + healing utility (+ rez).

---

The healing utility isn't necessarily enough to be worth taking over a Ranged DPS because it's not going to reduce incoming damage(especially since heal ticks from Flight aren't as HoT as people think they are) and SMN is going to be using Phoenix for burst phases anyway. The comparison to MNK is not even close considering MNK has Mantra, is comp dependent for Brotherhood Chakra Generation, and has a truckload of damage to go with it. The Raise is just there in case somebody gets tanked in progression, but I'm talking about this in a Clear raid scenario.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

You misunderstand that in a composition, Physical Ranged are the only DPS that can reduce raid-wide damage by 10%, compared to the likes of Feint and Addle which only affect enemy stats(provides circa 6-7% Damage Type Mitigation). On top of that, also providing buffs in the case of BRD/DNC, or outputting raw damage as MCH. Even then, you want at least one to alleviate healers so they can DPS more. if you replace that with SMN, you're basically trading off that mitigation and buffs for Devotion, which is just a 5% Damage Buff for the raid. It may sound rather out of place at first, but the data speaks for itself. If SE makes any small changes come 4.11 or 4.15, we'll see what they do to fix the situation.

---

firstly i'm unsure why you think addle/feint are 6-7% damage reduction , a 10% mainstat reduction should actually come out as a 10% damage reduction , also they are on a shorter cooldown and with 2 melee/2 caster you got 2 off both, if this would not be enough than the situation before the patch with the even longer cooldown on troubadour/samba should have been basically impossible for groups to handle, also if you really think they offer enough value for this much of a dps discreptancy than why not go double physical ranged ? i mean they can take turns with their damage reduction, saves the healers extra work.

also, this seems to be a hard concept for people as it gets said like 10 times a day per any given thread but "providing buffs" (damage buffs that is) is NOT a bonus point for a class, bard and dancer damage sucks as after the buffs they provide are accounted for, it matters jack if a class is 1000 dps personal below an alternate class or 3000 dps personal below but buffing the group for 2000 dps, both leave you with 1000 dps less than if you just took another class so why bringt it up ?

you say if you give up bard/dnc you trade damage buffs (again, pretty unsure were you got your numbers on the mitigation part, but open to take a math lesson from some theorycraft wizard) for devotion which is a worse damage buff but that argument is simply wrong, like yes you do as you say, but what does it matter ? summoner isn't 1000 dps above bard and buffs the group for 500 while bard buffs the group for 1200, summoner is 2000 above bard and than buffs the group for 500 while bard buffs the group for 1000 leaving it with a 1500 dps deficiency

edit: and to this

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

The Raise is just there in case somebody gets tanked in progression, but I'm talking about this in a Clear raid scenario.

---

you really think the phys ranged dmg mitigation is totally needed after progression ? is it nice to have ? totally, but so is a rezz not done by a healer if something goes wrong, if you really believe something like troubadour is necessary to do a weekly kill or even saves a lot of healing you vastly underestimate the damage reduction capabilitys of other classes

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shiroe

E4S:
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...s=68&bracket=2

Hades Ex:
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statistics/28/#boss=1049

---

Thats a BAD example like i said comparing only 5.1 is not the best way to compared BLM and SMN, you should compared All BLM by not selecting the patch with 5.1 SMN, thag way 90+ percentile still have BLM topping SMN.

Hades is, again too unique because of long transision, if you based a dps on hades the difference on a normal fight gonna be hugeeeeee.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

The healing utility isn't necessarily enough to be worth taking over a Ranged DPS because it's not going to reduce incoming damage(especially since heal ticks from Flight aren't as HoT as people think they are) and SMN is going to be using Phoenix for burst phases anyway. The comparison to MNK is not even close considering MNK has Mantra.

---

Everlasting Flight is 700 potency, or two Vercures each as AoEs. It's largely pointless since it really can't be timed to damage in any way due to SMN's strict macrorotations, but it will always contribute more healing than Mantra now that the latter has been reduced to half and it takes less than 2k AoE potency to fully heal through whatever raid damage is likely to be present over Mantra's duration (leaving Mantra at, at best, some 200 potency of healing).

Similarly, Troubadour/Tactician/Samba will indirectly deal between 0 and some 400 potency of healing because of the healing (rarely) GCD saved with a mere 10% mitigation. If even a third of its ticks manage not to merely overheal, Everlasting Flight is generally stronger than either.

Finding it laughable, that we've arrived at another round of blatant power balance issues and I see a lot of median tier players chirping in about *perceived* job difficulty and trying to leverage that as a justification for the current state of balance. Absolutely moronic.

Summoner is clearly overperforming right now and implying it is not is mindless. Not only does it currently outperform its closest competitor, Black Mage, in both rDPS and utility in all percentiles but the absolute highest, it really has pushed the third wheel in the Caster role close to redundancy (reference). I would go as far as to say that Red Mage, as a result, is the worst job in the game. Not because it does the lowest rDPS, the ranged do, but because of the fact that its direct competitors far outclass the job by miles.

Caster Balance is a mess.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ShaneDawn

Finding it laughable, that we've arrived at another round of blatant power balance issues and I see a lot of median tier players chirping in about *perceived* job difficulty and trying to leverage that as a justification for the current state of balance. Absolutely moronic.

Summoner is clearly overperforming right now and implying it is not is mindless. Not only does it currently outperform its closest competitor, Black Mage, in both rDPS and utility in all percentiles but the absolute highest, it really has pushed the third wheel in the Caster role close to redundancy (reference). I would go as far as to say that Red Mage, as a result, is the worst job in the game. Not because it does the lowest rDPS, the ranged do, but because of the fact that its direct competitors far outclass the job by miles.

Caster Balance is a mess.

---

New Summoner seems overpowered enough to potentially drive the entire physical ranged role out in the same way that people feared 2x BLM would do by means of a SMN/BLM comp, except while bringing a Raise and not having the penalty for duplicate jobs that 2x BLM had. It's also patently absurd that people are arguing that SMN deserves to be this powerful "because its difficult" when the class was made substantially easier as part of this round of buffs.

Buffing other jobs to compensate for Summoner's currently broken damage would require to buff almost every DPS job in the game (you can't simply buff BLM, since doing so would partly nullify the buffs RDM got to make it competitive with BLM, and buffing RDM would require further buffing of the entire ranged physical role to make them competitive with casters, and for all we know this might also require giving small buffs to melee classes as well). The only solution is to revert some of the potency increases SMN got whether people like it or not, because turning this into a casters arms race will just end the same way that the ranged physical DPS arms race ended in Heavensward, which was making that particular role overpowered compared to other types of DPS.

Some people will always cry in the forums when nerfs happen to their favorite class, and even openly support their favorite class ruining the entire game's balance as some sort of reparation for being bad for one patch, as can be seen in this thread. These people should simply not be listened to since they don't have the best interests of the entire playerbase in mind, only their own.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RadicalPesto

New Summoner seems overpowered enough to potentially drive the entire physical ranged role out in the same way that people feared 2x BLM would do by means of a SMN/BLM comp, except while bringing a Raise and not having the penalty for duplicate jobs that 2x BLM had. It's also patently absurd that people are arguing that SMN deserves to be this powerful "because its difficult" when the class was made substantially easier as part of this round of buffs.

Buffing other jobs to compensate for Summoner's currently broken damage would require to buff almost every DPS job in the game (you can't simply buff BLM, since doing so would partly nullify the buffs RDM got to make it competitive with BLM, and buffing RDM would require further buffing of the entire ranged physical role to make them competitive with casters, and for all we know this might also require giving small buffs to melee classes as well). The only solution is to revert some of the potency increases SMN got whether people like it or not, because turning this into a casters arms race will just end the same way that the ranged physical DPS arms race ended in Heavensward, which was making that particular role overpowered compared to other types of DPS.

Some people will always cry in the forums when nerfs happen to their favorite class, and even openly support their favorite class ruining the entire game's balance as some sort of reparation for being bad for one patch, as can be seen in this thread. These people should simply not be listened to since they don't have the best interests of the entire playerbase in mind, only their own.

---

With the new ranged buffs, ranged won't be pushed out, but they are still really bad. The double BLM comp theorycrafted needed 2 BLMs performing at 95%+ to get a very minor increase, iirc from the original thread it was 0.5% over taking a top performing ranged, and wasn't a gain if you could get another LB2 out of a normal comp (due to reduced lb generation from double class). The new ranged buff and no nerf to BLM means that that 0.5% will likely not happen anymore. Ranged still need a buff though imo.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ShaneDawn

Summoner is clearly overperforming right now and implying it is not is mindless. Not only does it currently outperform its closest competitor, Black Mage.

---

This is false though. Just compare 5.0 BLM with 5.1 SMN and you'll notice that BLM clearly has the edge (by about 300 rdps) at 99%. Furthermore, BLM has the highest max damage potential (again, compare 5.0 max blm vs 5.1 max smn) and in this case the difference widens, this is particularly obvious in e10s (top blm 17418 vs top smn 16385). So if SMN is overperforming...I wonder what BLM is doing.

The only exception seems to be e1s because of weird downtime timings and burst windows, but in that case the higher dps is mostly due to padding during the adds phase.

why compare 5.0 with 5.1?

5.0 is over, everthing that matters is 5.1..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shiroe

why compare 5.0 with 5.1?

5.0 is over, everthing that matters is 5.1..

---

Because BLM wasn't nerfed in 5.1, was it. Therefore old data matters when it comes to assessing BLM potential.

What if a good chunk of the old top BLM simply decided to try SMN after the buffs? This would result in an average decrease of BLM damage at all percentiles. In fact, since 5.1, the relative representation for SMN substantially increased on fflogs (the sample for SMN has now more observations than the sample for BLM, while before 5.1 the opposite was true).

In short, not considering BLM numbers before 5.1 is a mistake and may lead to wrong conclusions.
What we know now is that 5.0 BLM = 5.1 BLM > 5.1 SMN at higher percentiles with the exception of E1S. This is what the data currently tells us.

Of course, it might be that top SMNs still need to adjust to the new changes and future logs will show that a fully optimized SMN is stronger than a fully optimized BLM, but we don't have that kind of data yet.

ofc many moved to Smn..

but ofc its less likely the top blm dps moved over, since they had great dps eitherway, but more likely those who were struggling with maintaining blm dps move over (or Smn mains fed up with Smn 5.0 moved over)

ofc many will try out the new Smn too, those who do more Dps will stick to Smn

still, its obvious that Smn is very strong, probably too strong for a rez class with buffs overall, when looking at Blm (and Rdm)

but im not sure that nerfing Smn is the way to go, since Smn is not as OP as 4.1 Smn was

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ReiMakoto

With the new ranged buffs, ranged won't be pushed out, but they are still really bad. The double BLM comp theorycrafted needed 2 BLMs performing at 95%+ to get a very minor increase, iirc from the original thread it was 0.5% over taking a top performing ranged, and wasn't a gain if you could get another LB2 out of a normal comp (due to reduced lb generation from double class). The new ranged buff and no nerf to BLM means that that 0.5% will likely not happen anymore. Ranged still need a buff though imo.

---

problem is that you now don't need double blm anymore, blm+smn will do the trick, also for the cases where its about that 0,5% or even less dps, thats speedrunning, a miniscule amount of the playerbase even if people like to act like thats all that matters, for everyone else however ranged still suck, especially as summoner offers a rez.

it isn't even the question if its better to take a equally skilled ranged instead of a second caster for dps, as long as the dps numbers are as they are a caster may very well fill the second ranged slot instead of a physical ranged with minimal loss (or even small gain) to the group which means the ranged are in fact at risk of losing their slot to a caster and thats a problem, not because i'm against taking the player instead of the class or whatever, but as a matter of fact square encourages you to take at least 1, rather 2 melee dps aswell as 1 caster. if now on top of that the last slot is "should go to ranged, but seriously if you got another good caster just take that one" we got

4 classes competing for 2 slots (melee)
3 classes competing for 1 slot (caster)
and then 3 classes (physical) competing for the last slot with 3 other classes (caster) again.

a static may very well take a second caster instead of a physical ranged and at worst have minor dps loses in exchange for a rezz, and while generally i would say its a good thing if classes competed freely for slots that would mean all would have to compete, as it stands the only classes with extra competition are the physical ranged, fighting for a single slot whereas everyone else gets a slot save and officially encouraged by square by way of the 1% buff.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lastelli

Because BLM wasn't nerfed in 5.1, was it. Therefore old data matters when it comes to assessing BLM potential.

---

You make a fair point, in that presenting logs from 5.1 are probably not an accurate representation of what the jobs are capable of doing.

Doing a comparison of 5.0 to 5.1 parses is not going to be fair or accurate either, as the number of sent logs in the former is of a much higher volume right now, even over the 2 week data shown on the statistics. I doubt week 1 logs on a revamped job after a new patch hits are going to be an proper reflection of what the job can do, but this is just conjecture until we have more definite data.

The job is cutting it close either way, with the current caster balance effectively adding insult to the injury for Red Mage. It is also up to debate as to how close SMN, a caster with raise, heal utility (lol) and the improved mobility options should be able to do relatively to BLM in the first place.

I submit to the fact that my previous post might have been too monotone in regards to BLM/SMN rDPS differentials and requiring a better set of data to work with, however. I'm not really prone to denying when I might have presented an inaccurate perspective.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Akiudo

4 classes competing for 2 slots (melee)
3 classes competing for 1 slot (caster)
and then 3 classes (physical) competing for the last slot with 3 other classes (caster) again.

a static may very well take a second caster instead of a physical ranged and at worst have minor dps loses in exchange for a rezz, and while generally i would say its a good thing if classes competed freely for slots that would mean all would have to compete, as it stands the only classes with extra competition are the physical ranged, fighting for a single slot whereas everyone else gets a slot save and officially encouraged by square by way of the 1% buff.

---

Why not pick this comp?
- Black Mage
- Summoner
- Any Ranger
- Any Melee

My take on the new summoner: does a lot, like always, and hits hard which I like.

However, it has become the most blocky and otherwise counter intuitive job on the entire roster. It used to be my main but having little to no OGCDs to weave makes it bad for me.

At this point I would rather have more hard-cast abilities instead of all these instant-cast GCDs that make the job cumbersome.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lulunami

Why not pick this comp?
- Black Mage
- Summoner
- Any Ranger
- Any Melee

---

because the weakest melee completly smokes the strongest physical in dps ? leaving out e1s because of add padding mch is the only ranged with any shot at being wortwhile, and even than its only very very barely because of the 1% buff, mch is the strongest phys ranged by 200-700 dps compared to bard/dnc depending on fight and you don't even need any "uptime strats" or whatever as the moment you take the first melee you will do that either way.

for numbers sake, right at this very moment, 95% percentile for 1 day (feel free to check tomorrow, the general picture has been the same for every day since patch hit)

e2s=bard 14.072
weakest melee (nin)=15.479
1407 dps buffer from bard to weakest melee

e3s=bard 13.167
weakest melee (drg)=14.708
1541 dps buffer

e4s=bard 13.193
weakest melee (nin)=14.469
1276 dps buffer

now a 95% group which means only 1 out of twenty groups is better, does 85000-93000 dps on these fights if you exclude the limit break meaning the 1% ranged buff gives anywhere from 850-930 dps, thats why you don't exclude the melee, because you could literally take the weakest melee and still be 400 dps ahead compared to taking a bard, dnc on average fairs a bit better, but excluding levi where bard is a bit of an outlier do to his group buff being outranged like 30% of the fight dnc still is only like 50-100 dps ahead of bard or in other words, still 300-400 dps short AFTER the 1% buff is accounted for, the only phys ranged with a chance to break even is mch, and even that is barely.

Also the question of "but what if you instead excluded the melee" still acts as if melees having to compete for a second spot is anywhere close to as bad as physical ranged actually having to compete for any spot at all. saying things like "the physical buffs saved them from exclusion" ignores that literally everyone aside from the strongest 2 of 5.0 got buffed by the same or more dps than the physical ranged

So I don’t have an issue per say with SMN but honestly the problem here in lies with BLM, it was just way too strong and they tried to compensate for that and the other half of the issue is RDM it’s just too damn weak. SMN being in the middle we keep getting this ping pong situation, this is why utility should have just been given to all dps.

Now we have the BLM becoming the SAM of the casters while RDM is still dragging the way back. SMN should have been on par with DRG but behind MNK allowing some middle ground but whatever I’m sick of it lol their balance issues reach further then a few classes but the whole dps role in general.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aomine1992

So I don’t have an issue per say with SMN but honestly the problem here in lies with BLM, it was just way too strong and they tried to compensate for that and the other half of the issue is RDM it’s just too damn weak. SMN being in the middle we keep getting this ping pong situation, this is why utility should have just been given to all dps.

Now we have the BLM becoming the SAM of the casters while RDM is still dragging the way back. SMN should have been on par with DRG but behind MNK allowing some middle ground but whatever I’m sick of it lol their balance issues reach further then a few classes but the whole dps role in general.

---

Summoner and Red Mage provide a comprable amount of utility, and so should be near each other in damage.

Everlasting Flight is the summoner equivalent to Vercure. It can't be used whenever you need it, but it is a passive part of your rotation and is a party-wide regen. Summoner is the only DPS with this ability.

Resurrection is the equivalent of Verraise. While you can't dual cast it whenever its needed, rarely should a raid need the summoner to raise multiple people back to back.

Devotion is the equivalent of Embolden. It's on a longer cooldown, but it boosts all magic damage as well as physical, making it potentially a stronger party buff.

Also now with the changes to Egi Assault, summoner has the potential to be much more mobile than red mage. I bring this up since in Heavensward, summoner mobility was used as a reason that black mage was supposed to do more damage as black mage was more or less completely immobile.

All that said, the developers really just need to figure out how they want casters in general to stack up against other roles, and commit to it. Previously it was the idea that if a caster didn't have to move, they should do more damage than a melee job, but now they don't seem to be abiding by that idea. They also over-tax some of the utility skills. Dragoon has a lot of utility, yet still gets to do high damage while jobs like red mage also have high utility and historically have done very low damage. Hopefully this balance is figures out sooner than later, like you said.

its not Blm is too strong, its Smn (look at the average parsers of all fights and even some top parsers)

Smn is top dps with Sam..

it should be Blm with Sam..

even Mr Happy sees Smn as too strong atm and Blm too weak
(as Smn as dps with utility and Blm with none.., and Blm with movement issues)

You guys forget the fact you are looking at rDPS a dps which include utility except raise... if any all job on the same role should have the same rdps, maybe minus raise tax... (which many people argue the need of it )

I dont want to cover SMN sinve its indeed feel a bit too strong atm, but saying BLM is losing to SMN is FALSE

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wereotter

Summoner and Red Mage provide a comprable amount of utility

---

Quote:

---

It can't be used whenever you need it, but..

---

Quote:

---

While you can't dual cast it whenever its needed..

---

Quote:

---

It's on a longer cooldown, but..

---

I think you said it best yourself, there is no universe where the utility from summoner and red mage can be described as comparable. You clearly realize that the summoner 'versions' of these skills have conditionals attached to them, but I don't think you grasp just how significant of a penalty having these conditions are.

Everlasting flight is a gimmick that will only ever align with mechanics by chance, that's not something you want to count on. It's also ineffective against burst damage which constitutes the vast majority of dangerous mechanics in this game. Not only that, you would have to inform your healer beforehand lest they overheal and make it pointless (and that's assuming the amount it heals is even enough to save your healer a cast in the first place). It's an ability that exists more for flavour than anything else, because hey, a phoenix has to heal things right? (It's not like the phoenix in ucob gave you a damage buff or anything...)

You know, summoners were worried when we saw this ability back during fanfest for this exact reason. Because it was clearly meant as a joke, but eventually someone would take it seriously and cite it as a reason to reduce summoner's power elsewhere. Well, here's the punchline I guess, it's not funny. Did you know, everlasting flight is probably actually making summoners lose damage? It's theorized that the need for phoenix to 'cast' everlasting flight is freezing it up for a brief moment after summoning and making it unable to cast scarlet flame. It makes gcd/ogcd sequencing very awkward as a result, and is something they fixed for bahamut in 5.1 (From the patch notes: Summon Bahamut Wyrmwave can now be executed immediately after being summoned.)

Embolden's actually a good deal stronger than devotion too, now that we have rdps calculations, you can check this for yourself right now. Go find some high ranking speedruns featuring summoners and red mages (you have to scroll down pretty far though cause it's all black mages ha ha ha). Mouseover their 'damage done' and see how much credit they got for their buffs respectively.

Verraise is on a completely different level to resurrection. I really shouldn't need to explain why, anyone who has done serious progression raiding will agree. There is a massive, massive difference between a raise that only needs 2.5 seconds of hardcasting to prep, and one that requires you to stand still for 8 seconds. You've some experience in eden right? You try standing still for 8 seconds when Leviathan is casting temporary current or you're running from adds or the big hand in Voidwalker.

All things considered, I think the gap between smn and rdm dps is now far more representative of the differences in their utility than it was in 5.0.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Akiudo

because the weakest melee completly smokes the strongest physical in dps ? leaving out e1s because of add padding mch is the only ranged with any shot at being wortwhile, and even than its only very very barely because of the 1% buff, mch is the strongest phys ranged by 200-700 dps compared to bard/dnc depending on fight and you don't even need any "uptime strats" or whatever as the moment you take the first melee you will do that either way.

for numbers sake, right at this very moment, 95% percentile for 1 day (feel free to check tomorrow, the general picture has been the same for every day since patch hit)

e2s=bard 14.072
weakest melee (nin)=15.479
1407 dps buffer from bard to weakest melee

e3s=bard 13.167
weakest melee (drg)=14.708
1541 dps buffer

e4s=bard 13.193
weakest melee (nin)=14.469
1276 dps buffer

now a 95% group which means only 1 out of twenty groups is better, does 85000-93000 dps on these fights if you exclude the limit break meaning the 1% ranged buff gives anywhere from 850-930 dps, thats why you don't exclude the melee, because you could literally take the weakest melee and still be 400 dps ahead compared to taking a bard, dnc on average fairs a bit better, but excluding levi where bard is a bit of an outlier do to his group buff being outranged like 30% of the fight dnc still is only like 50-100 dps ahead of bard or in other words, still 300-400 dps short AFTER the 1% buff is accounted for, the only phys ranged with a chance to break even is mch, and even that is barely.

Also the question of "but what if you instead excluded the melee" still acts as if melees having to compete for a second spot is anywhere close to as bad as physical ranged actually having to compete for any spot at all. saying things like "the physical buffs saved them from exclusion" ignores that literally everyone aside from the strongest 2 of 5.0 got buffed by the same or more dps than the physical ranged

---

Those melee DPS are going to do less damage without a ranger in the party. Maybe for a 99th percentile group on over-geared farm content, dropping the ranger may be feasible. However for progression content like the upcoming Ultimate, the 1% buff also affects survival because of 1% more HP for the entire party.

I do not understand why magical caster DD's always have to do less damage than melee DPS. This is a community meta restriction we place upon ourselves. The game encourages to fill out the party for the 1% buff up to 5%. That means melee DD, magical caster DD, physical ranger DD, and an optional DD of your choice.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Myon88

snip.

---

Everlasting Flight is a passive buff that actually do more healing than any red mage vercure will do in an 8-man raid scenario since the red mage has to stop DPS entirely to use their skill while summoner can use their as just part of summoning Phoenix. That healing may or may not ever be valuable depending on the phase its used in, but it's a raid utility skill that exists outside of having any impact on the ability of the summoner to do damage.

Verraise is in a similar situation (yes, I've done Eden savage) when you're in progression, you can be smart and just know you might need to save swiftcast to use resurrection than use it as a DPS skill. Yes, that's not optimal usage of swiftcast, but we all know that caster raises are primarily for progression not for farming.

I haven't looked into embolden vs devotion in logs yet, so only the comparison is from the fact that devotion buffs all damage while embolden only buffs physical. Though if there's massive difference between the two this might be a reason to have summoners slightly higher.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shiroe

even Mr Happy sees Smn as too strong atm and Blm too weak
(as Smn as dps with utility and Blm with none.., and Blm with movement issues)

---

BLM too weak ?
it's the biggest joke I have never heard,
Yes the summoner is slightly too strong at the moment, but the blm is just too strong since the 5.0

and now that the summoner is temporarily unbalanced blm main crying and complain while the blm is still as strong

in any case, the black mage would have been put aside for the world prog of the ultimate ,
because the red mage and the summoner have a rez .


dont worry summoner will be nerfed in 5.2 .
and blm will shine again .

There is always a guy saying, monk should be nerfed...now its smn should be nerfed... people are never happy with anything.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Myon88

snip

---

funny thing is while you allways quoted the drawback he stated you never quoted him fully, he literally pointed out positives/advantages the summoner version has in 2 out of the 3 aspects he covered in addition to its drawbacks and while yes, the dualcast/verraise point indeed is true, redmage has an easier time rezzing him pointing out that having to raise twice in quick succession, espacially in a try where it matters still holds true, especially as rezzing multiple times in a row still will completly tank a redmages mana, but just for funsies let me do it again for you

"1. summoner heal indeed only happens when well, it happens, you don't control it. if it aligns correctly its also vastly more powerfull than redmages heal will ever be and doesn't even cost the summoner dps to do, realistically both are functionally worthless 95% of the time

2 embolden indeed is a lot stronger than devotion, still worth mentioning that it hits everyone, something embolden doesn't and which actually would be somewhat relevant in a dual caster situation, especially if smn came out as meta as embolden would be quite a bit weaker with a second caster, a drawback devotion doesn't have, also and heres the kicker, it adds up to their respective raid dps so what does it matter which is stronger ? you really want to say if summoner and redmage were functionally equal in every way, just that smn deals 2000 dps more (lets say devotion doesn't exist for this scenario) and redmage gets embolden buffing the group for 900 dps than that would be balanced ? it is raid dps, plain and simple, summoner allready gets compensated with extra personal dps because its dps buff is weaker, just that right now the extra dps smn has on rdm goes far and beyond that. embolden being stronger should mean nothing for raid dps, heck if anything at the absolute top end it should push rdm ahead if anything because paying more personal dps than a raidbuff offers factually defeats its purpose.

3. the rezz i'll give you is superior in redmages case, however lets be real here,
you really think the fact rdm can multy rezz is worth a 1000 dps~ summoner lead on redmage ? because if thats your honest opinion than blackmage really should smoke summoner in a pipe, the chance a single rezz in a fight actually saves a try is probably a lot higher than that a try where a redmage has to rezz his 5th person will end in anything but an enrage. yes, it may still be incredibly usefull for learning fights if you are a serious progression raider, but could we just maybe stop making a class suck for 99% of the playerbase because of the 1% competing for world first ? espacially as these in particular are the guys that will just take redmage to learn the fight anyways, even if its damage was cut by 50% just to than switch for the kill and never go back ?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Noctisnine

There is always a guy saying, monk should be nerfed...now its smn should be nerfed... people are never happy with anything.

---

the summoner is too strong it is a fact, but not at a dramatic stage, the solution is either to raise the firepower of the black mage and the red mage slightly, or to slightly lower that of the Summoner.