SE needs to do more to help bad players

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Originally Posted by Bonbori

I. Am. Talking. About. Normal.

It's not a tight check either, but in my experience people seem to struggle with it more than they do with EX. Most of the people who attempt EX are not the people who couldn't get past normal so I don't consider EX part of the discussion about content that should be teaching people basic stuff.

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Wait, you talk about normal and say that is a tight DPS check? Oh my...

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Originally Posted by MrKusakabe

I'd really like to have a post-dungeon tally screen. For a Level 70 Scholar for example, dealing damage is so underwhelming and stupid - both audiovisually and number-wise - that I often really can't be bothered (I do not care about your hate in that matter :) Also, no kicks yet for that, so apparently not everyone is getting "salty" about that as the kids say nowadays). Some guy here said it takes "EXTREMELY" long if the healer does not do DPS, I mean, get real.

I am an absolute statistics freak - but right now, I can't even see my own damage numbers properly in all the visual clutter when Biora has another tick of "extreme" [sic] damage going on. So my incentive for being very efficient is equally low. If I have a good day then it happens by itself, but else all my efforts simply vanish. No recording, no tally, no summary. It's either "YAY, YOU DID IT" or "OOPS! YOU FAILED".

A statistic screen after the dungeon would literally nullify harrasment. In LoL for example, I place much, much more wards since I know visual score is a thing that again leads me not only to a better statistic - but also a better score for my "champion mastery".

I mean, I had do a government test for selling non-prescription medications. Took me 3 days, and I had a score to reach. Nobody gives a damn abou the score, they took the slip saying "PASSED" and that's it. Maybe many people tackle dungeons in the same manner due to the lack of actual numbers. If I get a "B-" on DPS as Scholar, and other people see that, heck you will see me DPSing next time! Or if my "physical damage" is only "B" while the other Red Mage has "A-", then I need to get my melee phases better!

Sincerely,

https://i.imgur.com/kXOfaq9.png

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I kind of like this idea, They did this for PVP content (not sure if they still do it). If people who are bad actually know they are bad, it might change their mindset.

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Originally Posted by CazzT

DPS is not a requirement of Healers.

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Glad to see the great community is still encouraging bad playstyles.

Are ya'll sure it isn't just because we got a wave of new players that have yet to learn stuff because out GCBTW doesn't really stop to chat to the newbies about what they did wrong?
I remember back in Jan 2014 some roe stopped me by the end of a dungeon and explained me what the heck a limit break was when I was lvl 30, took me at least four months till I could consider myself a passable player in terms of skill, initially most newbies just fixate on clearing stuff so they can get to the next msq or get to endgame.

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Originally Posted by ErryK

Glad to see the great community is still encouraging bad playstyles.

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I mean it is true, I rather healers focus on healing even if it makes a dungeon longer. I rather someone play with a bad playstyle and enjoy the game, than other wise.

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Originally Posted by DavidIven

healers dont do dps when they are free is retarded, the amount of damage they can output is no joke, so why not make thing faster and easier? Do you realize that your damage contribution can prevent an enrage?

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If the Healers DPS is what prevented the enrage, the DPS didn't deserve the clear.

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Originally Posted by ErryK

Glad to see the great community is still encouraging bad playstyles.

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Since SE tune raids explicitly setting the Healers DPS contributions to 0, The community is the problem. The design is that they're not expected to DPS. The community wants them to DPS while Healing. Those comfortable with that duality will perform both tasks. Those are not, will not. And since the game is designed the way it is, Should a Healer not do DPS, any Enrages that occur are 100% on the Tanks+DPS heads, as the content is tuned for their combined damage output.

Honestly, anyone who yells at a Healer for "causing an enrage wipe" is literally placing a giant neon sign on the heads of every non healer in the party that screams "MY DPS SUCKS".

When I see a Healer doing 0 dps, I query them and offer advice to help get them doing more with their downtime but never will I kick or get mad at a Healer who opts to not DPS.
Oh noes my dungeon run will take approximately 2.6 minutes longer! Woe is me!

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Originally Posted by Sylve

If the Healers DPS is what prevented the enrage, the DPS didn't deserve the clear.

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So much this, since all fights are designed around healers just healing.

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Originally Posted by Komarimono

So much this, since all fights are designed around healers just healing.

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While this is true, this is assuming that all players are at the minimum item level for the encounter. Now when you're below the minimum item level (quite normal for statics btw and Savage raids), that healer DPS can indeed make the difference between a clear or no clear.

It'd be a waste of time.

Players will only be as good they want to be.

Which means that a terrible player, will remain terrible, for whatever reason they may give, unless they actually want to reach out for what they need to improve and work towards it.

Best advice I can give is to just worry about yourself, and those close to you, assuming they even want to improve in the least. Trying to fix the Duty/Party Finder playerbase skill level, will be like trying to douse hell with a garden hose. You won't get anywhere, you'll end up burned out, and you might even end up reported and banned because of how vague the ToS is.

There are ways to get better, some more obvious than others, but again, it's about putting the time and effort in it. Even if they put like a crash course on raiding mechanics, with the juiciest of rewards for completing it, the playerbase might only get good at completing IT, and when dealing with something else, they'll fall back to their old habits. Hence a waste of time and resources.

I'm not trying to be mean or discouraging, on the contrary, understanding the game better and improving will make the whole experience more enjoyable, believe me on that. But, it takes the will and the time to do it.

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Originally Posted by ErryK

Glad to see the great community is still encouraging bad playstyles.

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Says the guy with "♥ It's not right, but it's okay. ♥" in his signature. If it's not EX/Savage/Ultimate it's not going to matter. You have an hour to complete a dungeon, you knew the risks when you clicked confirm.

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Originally Posted by Paladinleeds

While this is true, this is assuming that all players are at the minimum item level for the encounter. Now when you're below the minimum item level (quite normal for statics btw and Savage raids), that healer DPS can indeed make the difference between a clear or no clear.

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All encounters are balanced around the minimum iLevel as well. Hence better gear making it easier and easier as more people get the better gear. If you're below the minimum you can't even enter, so uh... Hmm...

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Originally Posted by Komarimono

All encounters are balanced around the minimum iLevel as well. Hence better gear making it easier and easier as more people get the better gear. If you're below the minimum you can't even enter, so uh... Hmm...

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Incorrect. If you're a full premade, you can enter below minimum item level. Now if you're pulling even one random from DF then yes you must all meet the minimum itemlevel. Also, my phrasing said that the encounter is balanced around everyone at minimum item level (the "this is assuming that all players are at the minimum item level for the counter" part). But trust me, full premades can enter below minimum itemlevel for dungeons and trials. On the duty finder window, for most duties it'll say something like "Role and item level restrictions are lifted for premade parties".

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Originally Posted by Wavaryen

I mean it is true, I rather healers focus on healing even if it makes a dungeon longer. I rather someone play with a bad playstyle and enjoy the game, than other wise.

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What about when they focus on standing still doing nothing?

The narrowing of the skill gap in this game would ultimately involve a redesign that I'm sure long term players won't want.

Yes, this game could use something like the Proving Grounds which would help but not solve the problem.

World of WarCraft and Elder Scrolls Online seem to have a wider pool of skill because they have a much lower skill floor than this game but a much higher skill ceiling.

Rotations in those two games are nowhere near as complicated as the rotations here but the encounters are much harder in design as a trade off. So players from ESO or WoW are not used to having to manage a very long, very strict rotation which means a lot of time spent looking at hot bars (and dying to mechanics) or a lot of time watching mechanics and ignoring hotbars (lowering dps). That's my experience, anyway.


Personally I do prefer easier rotations and tougher encounters but I wouldn't wish that sort of change for this game when so many people like the game how it is.

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Originally Posted by Gula

Says the guy with "♥ It's not right, but it's okay. ♥" in his signature. If it's not EX/Savage/Ultimate it's not going to matter. You have an hour to complete a dungeon, you knew the risks when you clicked confirm.

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Originally Posted by Wavaryen

I mean it is true, I rather healers focus on healing even if it makes a dungeon longer. I rather someone play with a bad playstyle and enjoy the game, than other wise.

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Again, glad to see people are promoting healers to AFK inbetween heals when the content demands for bare minimum healing to begin with.

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Originally Posted by Lunavi

Wait, you talk about normal and say that is a tight DPS check? Oh my...

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Sigh. This is the last time I'm going to attempt communication with you.

It is not, objectively, a tight check, I overstated it a bit and later corrected myself. But it is definitely fallible, unlike most previous normal trials, and as I said, the amount of trouble I've seen people in my daily roulettes have with it give me the impression that Titania Normal was supposed to be an attempt by SE to prompt people to wake up, self-reflect and work on their damage output. However, I don't think it worked. Because the game so rarely challenges players in the course of MSQ progression, many of them seem to be coming into a lvl 73 trial doing subpar damage, or in case of many healers I've seen, 0 damage, absolute 0, not even a dot, not even a book smack. It astonishes me that people are allowed to get this far into the game performing so poorly and would rather disband after failing at this trial than attempt to do better at it.

In other words, if I'm somehow still not clear: Titania Normal is not especially challenging, but my experience shows that a lot of people I randomly run into in duty finder are excessively challenged by it, and I cannot quite understand why. The game prior to that offers 70 levels worth of self-improvement tools which in theory should have been enough to prepare players coming into Shadowbringers to deal with basic mechanics and perform basic rotations required to pass a dps check. I don't know what more the game can do to help them short of either forcing them to beat a Stone, Sky, Sea dummy at certain thresholds, or allowing other players more freedom to advise underperforming players without violating the TOS in one way or another.

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Originally Posted by Paladinleeds

Incorrect. If you're a full premade, you can enter below minimum item level. Now if you're pulling even one random from DF then yes you must all meet the minimum itemlevel. Also, my phrasing said that the encounter is balanced around everyone at minimum item level (the "this is assuming that all players are at the minimum item level for the counter" part). But trust me, full premades can enter below minimum itemlevel for dungeons and trials. On the duty finder window, for most duties it'll say something like "Role and item level restrictions are lifted for premade parties".

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While true, doesn't change that's how the instance is balanced though -_^ If you wish to enter below the recommended ilevel, by all means. But I'm not even sure if that's possible due to ease of access to gear lol.

So, doesn't help the argument of healers going pew pew and gear being low, since balanced around no pew pew and a certain ilevel. So again, if people are hitting enrage, it's based on lack of DPS from DPS, "Standing in Fire", and lack of awareness then.

Now that I have finished reading this, got a few more interesting thoughts ti add.

Keep seeing discussion on if healers are required to DPS.

First, I need to say I disagree with telling people the "Always Be Casting" saying first, and prefer "Always Be Evaluating". ABE leads to and allows for ABC, as it takes knowing the content, your current available resources, and what resources you will need soon to best put ABC into effect.

For healer requirements, it is pretty simple, as only one. Keep people alive to the best of your ability. The priorities is where it gets complicated.
The first priority is always going to be the tanks and healers. Second priority is anyone else that can heal or raise in a pinch. Last is everyone else.

While doing damage is no where in there, a good healer knows that it is one of many tools they can use to accomplish the above role requirements, as the faster the encounter ends the less healing is needed.

But to all of the people complaining about 0 or low dps healers, you might want to double check the people's whos dps the content is actually balanced around being at specific points first before pointing fingers at the role that is not included in that balance equation if not clearing. As there is always the possibility that the healer is not getting enough freedom with their resources to dps.

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Originally Posted by ErryK

Again, glad to see people are promoting healers to AFK inbetween heals when the content demands for bare minimum healing to begin with.

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You saying I'm promoting anything is your own narrative. I'm just stating an actual gameplay fact.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

What about when they focus on standing still doing nothing?

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I mean if that is how they enjoy the game I'm not going to judge?

When I picked convenience of the game making my own group. I lost the right to complain about other peoples play style be I like it or not. That is how I feel about bad groups I get.

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Originally Posted by Wavaryen

Lots of pages, but I'm just going to put my two cents on this subject as a baddie :).

Content that is force on players to get through storyline should stay easy. Telling players to get good, or wanting to get better is silly. MMOs are design for all types of players, some players don't really care to get better. We have no right to judge them when they are doing content they are force to do in story. Now if they are doing tough content that requires them to be better, and they know they are bad. Ya, they should not be doing that content and I can understand why people get upset.


Myself, I just play have fun. If I don't like skills a class has, I don't care if it is better dps or not. I won't use them. If a aoe rotation is clunky, I just won't use it. That is me, and noone pays for my account and has no right to tell me to do it unless I am doing content that is not forced on me to keep on with the story.


Also does this game not have tools for you to get around this problem? Make friends with people and make your own groups like in the old days? I might be old fashion in thinking this, but the convenience of push to play content comes at the cost of quality control of the players. So even I can't blame the bad players like myself too much.

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I honestly didn't think the "you don't pay my sub" crowd really exist, I thought it was just a joke.

People like this guy are why we should be allowed to vote kick as many times as we need to and why we should be able to show numbers so people can see just how heavy of a carry they are (I'm not self absorbed so I'd personally feel bad if I'm dragging my team down). Someone like this wouldn't make it through a single player game unless he changed his ways but he doesn't have to here because other people will carry him. While calling the people that are annoyed with him because he simply refuses to use his skills...elitist and toxic.

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Originally Posted by Sylve

but never will I kick or get mad at a Healer who opts to not DPS.
Oh noes my dungeon run will take approximately 2.6 minutes longer! Woe is me!

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Just want to say it's not about Healers doing max damage.

It's about players putting in reasonable effort overall. Would you be fine with it if, as a dps I refused to use any offensive cd's or ogcd's because Normal has no enrage and I'm not "required" to maximize dps in that content? What about a tank who just auto attacks the boss and pops defensives because tank dps isn't required beyond basic emnity?

A 0 dps healer would be fine in a high damage situation where people are dying, especially if they're new or learning. But if they're twiddling their thumbs for 30 seconds in an easy fight or spamming overheals on something the tank could effortlessly solo and refuse to contribute more because "Enix said I don't have to", while the other 3 players are going all out to the best of their ability, they absolutely deserve the boot.

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Originally Posted by Wavaryen

Myself, I just play have fun. If I don't like skills a class has, I don't care if it is better dps or not. I won't use them. If a aoe rotation is clunky, I just won't use it. That is me, and noone pays for my account and has no right to tell me to do it unless I am doing content that is not forced on me to keep on with the story.

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You also have to keep in mind you pay no one elses account either, so they do have a right to exclude you from their party for "difference in playstyle" if you refuse to contribute.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

Just want to say it's not about Healers doing max damage.

It's about players putting in reasonable effort overall. Would you be fine with it if, as a dps I refused to use any offensive cd's or ogcd's because Normal has no enrage and I'm not "required" to maximize dps in that content? What about a tank who just auto attacks the boss and pops defensives because tank dps isn't required beyond basic emnity?

You also have to keep in mind you pay no one elses account either, so they do have a right to exclude you from their party for "difference in playstyle" if you refuse to contribute.

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You are going through some serious extremes here. Being bad does not equal they are not trying.

Like I said before, you pick to let the game make you a group to save time. If you want quality control, make friends and make your own groups. Like I said before, if someone plays bad, and still enjoys the game and that ruins your fun. Well that is a small price to pay for that bad player.

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Originally Posted by Nims

I honestly didn't think the "you don't pay my sub" crowd really exist, I thought it was just a joke.

People like this guy are why we should be allowed to vote kick as many times as we need to and why we should be able to show numbers so people can see just how heavy of a carry they are (I'm not self absorbed so I'd personally feel bad if I'm dragging my team down). Someone like this wouldn't make it through a single player game unless he changed his ways but he doesn't have to here because other people will carry him. While calling the people that are annoyed with him because he simply refuses to use his skills...elitist and toxic.

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I mean, I would not want to group with you also. Also you assume a ton about me, and that is fine.



This community needs to ask themselves this. Are you really that annoyed that bad players group with you and it takes you longer to do a dungeon? Is that the community that you want? When I group I fail, I say sorry. I don't act like a jerk. I don't even call people out when they get mad. I laugh a little, but it is not like I provoke. I won't let your anger ruin my fun.



Look, this game praises itself for having such a great and caring community. Crying about when people play bad, or blaming them for dungeons being too easy. Trying to punish them for being bad. That brings down the community, this heavily push for parsing and "bads". It is all just white noise for what the community is.



I'm pretty old school gamer. I use to play muds, and older mmos. This game gives players who hate grouping with bads. Tools for you to use to build your own groups and lets you have control over that group.


You want convenience of fast group making, and having decent groups all the time. You can't have both.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

Just want to say it's not about Healers doing max damage.

It's about players putting in reasonable effort overall. Would you be fine with it if, as a dps I refused to use any offensive cd's or ogcd's because Normal has no enrage and I'm not "required" to maximize dps in that content? What about a tank who just auto attacks the boss and pops defensives because tank dps isn't required beyond basic emnity?

A 0 dps healer would be fine in a high damage situation where people are dying, especially if they're new or learning. But if they're twiddling their thumbs for 30 seconds in an easy fight or spamming overheals on something the tank could effortlessly solo and refuse to contribute more because "Enix said I don't have to", while the other 3 players are going all out to the best of their ability, they absolutely deserve the boot.



You also have to keep in mind you pay no one elses account either, so they do have a right to exclude you from their party for "difference in playstyle" if you refuse to contribute.

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Your Tank example falls apart under the fact that Tank DPS is factored into Raid tuning.

So heres a fun experiment for you. Take just a Tank and 2 DPS into any high level dungeon. No Healer. Afterall, a healer that isn't dpsing is "refusing to contribute" in your opinion. And since they're "not contributing", you don't need one in your party.
Now, try to complete that dungeon with no Healer. Go on.

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Originally Posted by Wavaryen

This community needs to ask themselves this. Are you really that annoyed that bad players group with you and it takes you longer to do a dungeon? Is that the community that you want? When I group I fail, I say sorry. I don't act like a jerk. I don't even call people out when they get mad. I laugh a little, but it is not like I provoke. I won't let your anger ruin my fun.

Look, this game praises itself for having such a great and caring community. Crying about when people play bad, or blaming them for dungeons being too easy. Trying to punish them for being bad. That brings down the community, this heavily push for parsing and "bads". It is all just white noise for what the community is.

I'm pretty old school gamer. I use to play muds, and older mmos. This game gives players who hate grouping with bads. Tools for you to use to build your own groups and lets you have control over that group.

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We can complain about you wasting our time and playing worse than you could because you want too. It literally reads as trolling when you avoid skills you don't "like". The fact that you laugh about people getting upset about you wasting their time and dragging the team down also reads as trolling.

I am happy to help players who want to learn and want to improve. But players who choose to play poorly? I don't have time or patience for that and I'm going to let you know that you are wasting time and that if you don't pick it up and carry your weight when everyone else is playing, at least, decently.

If you see no issue with how you play there is nothing the rest of us can actually say to change your mind though.

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Originally Posted by Sylve

Your Tank example falls apart under the fact that Tank DPS is factored into Raid tuning.

So heres a fun experiment for you. Take just a Tank and 2 DPS into any high level dungeon. No Healer. Afterall, a healer that isn't dpsing is "refusing to contribute" in your opinion. And since they're "not contributing", you don't need one in your party.
Now, try to complete that dungeon with no Healer. Go on.

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Countering his bad analogy with your bad analogy doesn't somehow make your's a good one.

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Originally Posted by Rivxkobe

We can complain about you wasting our time and playing worse than you could because you want too. It literally reads as trolling when you avoid skills you don't "like". The fact that you laugh about people getting upset about you wasting their time and dragging the team down also reads as trolling.

I am happy to help players who want to learn and want to improve. But players who choose to play poorly? I don't have time or patience for that and I'm going to let you know that you are wasting time and that if you don't pick it up and carry your weight when everyone else is playing, at least, decently.

If you see no issue with how you play there is nothing the rest of us can actually say to change your mind though.

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No you won't cbhange my mind and I don't need you to have fun, for my own fun.

I'm just saying that what some of you want can't be done, and won't be done. You either adjust or not. and the people who pick to do play like this. I doubt they care about your patience. I'm sorry to say.

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Originally Posted by Sylve

Now, try to complete that dungeon with no Healer. Go on.

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Have done so in the past on what was a less than week old expert dungeon, it really doesn't make that much difference in most dungeons, you just cant pull as much.

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Originally Posted by Rivxkobe

Countering his bad analogy with your bad analogy doesn't somehow make your's a good one.

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His analogy is one that's been trotted out since before HW.
He claims that a Healer not contributing to the party if they're not DPSing.
I ask of him to complete a dungeon with no Healer. His opinion that a Healers contribution is exclusive to their DPS, so i challenge him to complete that dungeon in a situation where there IS no Healer to contribute anything to the party. See how far he gets.
Hint: Not far.

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Originally Posted by Gula

You saying I'm promoting anything is your own narrative. I'm just stating an actual gameplay fact.

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Facts dont work with these people in thier eyes it doesnt matter if nobody died if you didnt dps while you were saving the group form it's own mistakes you're just a crappy healer who needs to play something else.

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Originally Posted by Sylve

So heres a fun experiment for you. Take just a Tank and 2 DPS into any high level dungeon. No Healer. Afterall, a healer that isn't dpsing is "refusing to contribute" in your opinion. And since they're "not contributing", you don't need one in your party.
Now, try to complete that dungeon with no Healer. Go on.

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That's been done before. I think any group that has had a healer drop in DR Expert has experienced it. Heck, I have.

Back when Hell's Lid was part of Expert, and my first time in that dungeon, we did it. I was RDM with a DRK and MNK. The Healer DCd. So we did single pack pulls from the first boss to the final boss. New healer spawned by the time we got to the final boss. I was able to heal and DPS as RDM. Other than Erase, RDM only has GCD heals. We still managed to get through it in 20 minutes.

It's completely doable if the group adjusts.

inb4: "well you were RDM" or "doesn't count since that is an older story/not current expansion". For the first one, you didn't specify which tanks and which DPS. So RDM and PLD are on the table. Second, you didn't state which expansion this had to occur in.

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Originally Posted by Xtrasweettea

That's been done before. I think any group that has had a healer drop in DR Expert has experienced it. Heck, I have.

Back when Hell's Lid was part of Expert, and my first time in that dungeon, we did it. I was RDM with a DRK and MNK. The Healer DCd. So we did single pack pulls from the first boss to the final boss. New healer spawned by the time we got to the final boss. I was able to heal and DPS as RDM. Other than Erase, RDM only has GCD heals. We still managed to get through it in 20 minutes.

It's completely doable if the group adjusts.

inb4: "well you were RDM" or "doesn't count since that is an older story/not current expansion". For the first one, you didn't specify which tanks and which DPS. So RDM and PLD are on the table. Second, you didn't state which expansion this had to occur in.

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Good job on illustrating my point.
First, that someone in the party was required to Heal in some capacity. In this case, you on your RDM. Every outgoing heal you had slowed the run down.
Second, you were reduced to a single pull only snail pace.

Now recreate that scenario in your head, but answer me this: How far would you have gotten if you hadn't taken over the role of Healer?

And to make sure you understand what I'm saying, The entire point of the challenge was to demonstrate that a Healer in the party contributes to the success and speed of the run without ever casting a damage dealing spell.

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Originally Posted by Wavaryen

Also you assume a ton about me, and that is fine.

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I'm going off what you literally said, that's not assuming anything.

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Is that the community that you want?

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For me, personally? Yes. I come from open world pvp mmos with a way more hostile community and I thrive in that setting...so yes. I do want a community that calls out bad players that won't use a skill because they don't like the animation.

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I won't let your anger ruin my fun.

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But you're ok with your "playstyle" ruining other people's fun? Why is that acceptable?

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Look, this game praises itself for having such a great and caring community. Crying about when people play bad, or blaming them for dungeons being too easy. Trying to punish them for being bad. That brings down the community, this heavily push for parsing and "bads". It is all just white noise for what the community is.

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Only white knights praise this community, others don't care and the rest sees this community for what it is. People that literally send death threatens if you criticize the game.

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Tools for you to use to build your own groups and lets you have control over that group.


You want convenience of fast group making, and having decent groups all the time. You can't have both.

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You want people to use tools to avoid you but you don't want to use tools to simply play your class properly? Are you even comprehending what you're saying? Also I hate party finders and prefer to make parties on my own. However if I make a party and people like you join, I still have to do deal with you.

It's absurd because you know what your issue is, you simply don't want to use skills you don't like (What?) and expect other people to move around your inability to play.

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You are going through some serious extremes here. Being bad does not equal they are not trying.

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Except it does, I mean look at you for example...

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Originally Posted by Wavaryen

Lots of pages, but I'm just going to put my two cents on this subject as a baddie :).

-snip-

Myself, I just play have fun. If I don't like skills a class has, I don't care if it is better dps or not. I won't use them. If a aoe rotation is clunky, I just won't use it. That is me, and noone pays for my account and has no right to tell me to do it unless I am doing content that is not forced on me to keep on with the story.

Also does this game not have tools for you to get around this problem?

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As long as you are in solo content I don't care how you play. However you have to take responsibility for your choice to actively avoid using skills you do not like for whatever reason, most likely resulting in below intended requirements and/or expectations for group content. This means you either you use those skills in a randon group setting, you use the trust system, or you create a premade and explain to the members you will not be doing x, y, or z.

If you choose to use the random duty finder tool, you also made the choice to give up a portion of your fun in the intetest of a quicker party for group content, which is meant to be done cooperatively. While any 1 other person in the group does not pay your sub you also do not pay the rest of the groups subs. If your choices have impacted the group enough that one person felt the need to speak out in the party, odds are more people in the party felt the same way.

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Originally Posted by Hawklaser

As long as you are in solo content I don't care how you play. However you have to take responsibility for your choice to actively avoid using skills you do not like for whatever reason, most likely resulting in below intended requirements and/or expectations for group content. This means you either you use those skills in a randon group setting, you use the trust system, or you create a premade and explain to the members you will not be doing x, y, or z.

If you choose to use the random duty finder tool, you also made the choice to give up a portion of your fun in the intetest of a quicker party for group content, which is meant to be done cooperatively. While any 1 other person in the group does not pay your sub you also do not pay the rest of the groups subs. If your choices have impacted the group enough that one person felt the need to speak out in the party, odds are more people in the party felt the same way.

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I mean if the game forces me to group with you all to keep doing the story. You can blame the game for that, I don't group unless I got to do it :)

Geez...whats happening to FFXIV?...
Scottzone gets banned, and now Im seeing people dictate how they can play a video game....whats happening to my Community ;_;

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Originally Posted by Nims

I'm going off what you literally said, that's not assuming anything.

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Ok cool!

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For me, personally? Yes. I come from open world pvp mmos with a way more hostile community and I thrive in that setting...so yes. I do want a community that calls out bad players that won't use a skill because they don't like the animation.

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That is fine, but that is not what this mmo was about, and if it leans toward that. This game can no longer say it has the best community.

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But you're ok with your "playstyle" ruining other people's fun? Why is that acceptable?

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I mean you can turn that around. Here is the thing, one of us fun going to get ruined. Lucky for me it is not mine.

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Only white knights praise this community, others don't care and the rest sees this community for what it is. People that literally send death threatens if you criticize the game.

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Seems like this community already changed for the worse. *sighs* this is kinda why I wish wow would have stayed a decent game.

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You want people to use tools to avoid you but you don't want to use tools to simply play your class properly? Are you even comprehending what you're saying? Also I hate party finders and prefer to make parties on my own. However if I make a party and people like you join, I still have to do deal with you.

It's absurd because you know what your issue is, you simply don't want to use skills you don't like (What?) and expect other people to move around your inability to play.


Except it does, I mean look at you for example...

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I mean just add people to friends that you know are good and build up a team.


I'm just stating this simple fact. People won't get good, and don't care if they get called out. Making the game harder will just waste more of your time. That is it.

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Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

Geez...whats happening to FFXIV?...
Scottzone gets banned, and now Im seeing people dictate how they can play a video game....whats happening to my Community ;_;

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Lucky for us it is a small minority of people, they are just very loud.

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Originally Posted by Wavaryen

Lucky for us it is a small minority of people, they are just very loud.

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Well I hope this Minority Fixes itself before it grows into an even bigger issue.
Lambasting and not helping Bad Players is worse then matching up with a bad player.

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Originally Posted by Wavaryen

Myself, I just play have fun. If I don't like skills a class has, I don't care if it is better dps or not. I won't use them. If a aoe rotation is clunky, I just won't use it. That is me, and noone pays for my account and has no right to tell me to do it unless I am doing content that is not forced on me to keep on with the story.

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Are you giving us the "You don't pay my sub" response?!

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Originally Posted by Wavaryen

Also does this game not have tools for you to get around this problem? Make friends with people and make your own groups like in the old days? I might be old fashion in thinking this, but the convenience of push to play content comes at the cost of quality control of the players. So even I can't blame the bad players like myself too much.

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Ya know, this is the stupid part. I try to do this.
Try to make groups in the PF.
Try not to have to kick people.

But every time I make a group, some lazy smuck who doesn't know anything about the fight, and was carried a clear comes in anyways & tries to "farm" the boss & carries the who party down.

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Originally Posted by Wavaryen

Ok cool!

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I mean...you asked....

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That is fine, but that is not what this mmo was about, and if it leans toward that. This game can no longer say it has the best community.

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The game technically doesn't say it has the best community, part of the playerbase says that. And I personally don't care how the community is, not sure why you're trying to use this as a point. Thinking "Oh the community is so nice so I can play like absolute garbage and it's ok" is not ok. This is also why I'm for parsers, in a community where people call other people out, this way of thinking isn't broadcast openly.

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I mean you can turn that around. Here is the thing, one of us fun going to get ruined. Lucky for me it is not mine.

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No you can't turn that around, I'm not going out of my way to make things worse for other people. So again...why is it acceptable for you to ruin other people's fun? Why is it acceptable for you to make things take drastically longer than they should? Not because you're new, not because you don't know the mechanics or are practing the mechanics but simply because you want to make things go worse?

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Seems like this community already changed for the worse. *sighs* this is kinda why I wish wow would have stayed a decent game.

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Um, no? This community needs to take responsibility for it's own actions. The person that got the death threat was an old WoW player that actually likes this game more than WoW now. The person that made the threat was a long time FFXIV player....

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I mean just add people to friends that you know are good and build up a team.


I'm just stating this simple fact. People won't get good, and don't care if they get called out. Making the game harder will just waste more of your time. That is it.

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So why don't you just build a team of people you know and only do dungeons with them? That way you all can press only the cool animations (of course you main samurai....). Making the game harder weeds out people like you and I'm totally okay with that.