Lack of End Game Content

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Originally Posted by Kaethra

I finished the Mainstory before early access was over. And I didn't rush nor am I God's gift to FFXIV.

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You did a 40-50 hour story in 3 days. How is that not rushing?

Some of you are really reaching for your "end game content" have you ever played another MMO before?
Half the things being posted are either old content or more side activities that you do to entertain yourselves.

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Originally Posted by Conando

You did a 40-50 hour story in 3 days. How is that not rushing?

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It's not rushing when you are just playing normally. If you have the time to play 16 hours a day, why not? Should I play only 8 hours and sit the other 8 hours here, doing nothing?

Rushing is when you skip the cutscenes and just run from quest to quest without reading the story.

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Originally Posted by Amaterasu89

Some of you are really reaching for your "end game content" have you ever played another MMO before?
Half the things being posted are either old content or more side activities that you do to entertain yourselves.

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You mean the point of playing games, entertaining yourself?

I've played a lot of mmos. SWG, GW, GW2, bit of WoW, didn't get past 25 in that. Lineage 2 for several years. Tried wildstar, didn't get into it. Tried XI, didn't get into it. Age of Conan for a bit. Probably quite a few more who's names escape me at the moment.

You can do the MSQ in 3 days assuming you dont do the following:

-Stop and do all the side quests
-Stop and do fates
-Stop and do early level hunts
-Stop and do any crafting or gathering
-Stop for anything else for 10min to an hour because it stops you from doing the MSQ

It took me a little under 2 weeks to complete the MSQ because I was doing side content. I am finished now but I still have to level crafters and gatherers, especially before Ishgard rebuild starts in 5.1

Pretty much what people are forgetting is everyone is prepping for the raids and 5.1 when the real part of the expansion starts. Expecting large amounts of endgame content on day 1 is pretty stupid IMO.

Eureka seemed like a missed opportunity that got bogged with fate trains but serious question....why aren't ideas like sky sea and dynamis from ffxi considered for endgame?

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Originally Posted by Tint

It's not rushing when you are just playing normally. If you have the time to play 16 hours a day, why not? Should I play only 8 hours and sit the other 8 hours here, doing nothing?

Rushing is when you skip the cutscenes and just run from quest to quest without reading the story.

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While I agree with you, there's no amount of endgame content that's going to last for someone that can play 8+ hours a day every day, rushing or not. It might be sad but the truth is that today's gaming design is aimed at the concept of "people don't have enough time in their hands to do stuff". That's why MOBAs and battle royales became so popular over the majority of MMOs.

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Originally Posted by Avraym

Exactly! Take WoW for example.. I never really found farming azerite or world quests to be "thrilling". But i was kept busy and entertained.

Mythics provided a new way to keep old content fresh and challenging, whilst providing rewards that were relevant for the efforts put in.

This all end game content that outside outside of raiding.

You could still progress your character, everyday with your friends or alone, little by little. And that keeps a lot of players subscribed.

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Azerite + world quest timers is actually why I quit WoW. While doing cutting edge raiding, I personally felt that maximizing the efficiency of Azerite gains was mandatory while mythic raiding. The best gain for least time spent was doing the world quests that rewarded it. Unfortunately the quests had several cycle periods throughout the day instead of a daily reset type thing, so I couldn't just be done for the day after finishing what was available.

M+ Dungeons were fun though.

Op is asking for more content. We already know square takes money from ffxiv and puts it into other projects. Why are you guys fighting OP, when he’s literally saying let’s join together and ask for more.

You can ask for more. They will keep giving less cuz people arguing with OP, are content. Why stay content? When you can consume more

The only MMO I've played, and I've played tons, that goes deep into endgame content is WoW.

WoW, in fact, is actually like a reversal of FFXIV. It is so hyper focused on endgame that it's to the detriment of everything else.

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Originally Posted by FelixDaCat

For me, Eden was just like the Omega Duties and while some of the fights were really fun, I felt disappointed on how they went about linking the boss fights. I really wish Square-Enix would use a similar formula to what Blizzard did for the "Wraith of the Lich King". Have a big imposing building or area that you have to fight your way though, to finally reach the end. Ice Crown Citadel and Ulduar were my two most favourite raid in WoW and they really immersed you into the world of Northrend. I loved how you had to fight your way to the next boss and once you got there, you had a sense of achivement. I really don't like how they throw one boss at you, right after another in Omega and Eden, as it feels like there was a sudden lack of imagination, which we all know is not the case with the FF14 team.

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You can thank other players for this. Players in general do not want this in an MMO. Coil had small bits of this and people didn't want it so now we get what we get.

There is kind of an inherent flaw with developing engaging content. It takes more time to develop it than it does for players to devour it.

To those looking for perpetual challenging endgame content, with each expansion release, it would have to be something like an infinitely scaling PoD/HoH that doesn't give gear rewards or have its own internal scaling gear. The whole point of it would just be to see how far your group could get and nothing more.

The other option would be designing content not intended to be beaten until three to four patches down the road, and only rewards cosmetic items until that time. For example the hard mode trials currently reward 450 level gear, I'm guessing the raid is 460-470, so you would need some kind of content that would be possible with near perfect play and a bit of luck with the current gear, but is not meant to be beaten consistently until we have access to say 510-520 gear.

You really need some kind of rock for the hard core end game people to beat their head against to keep them interested, as its once everything is on farm they start getting bored. They want the challenge. They want the hurdles to overcome.

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Originally Posted by MonteCristo

Eureka seemed like a missed opportunity that got bogged with fate trains but serious question....why aren't ideas like sky sea and dynamis from ffxi considered for endgame?

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it's against their philosophy.

Sky and Sea is nothing but farming pop items and doing bosses. Extreme, Savage and Ultimate just cuts out the tedium of farming pop items and gives you the bosses. the devs do not believe in busy work for difficult content. if it's grindy busy work, they generally want the entire process easy enough for the entire playerbase.

also the FFXIV itemization system sucks. there's nothing to reward players with if a new tier of "hard" content was added.

Diadem and Eureka were their attempts at Dynamis.

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Originally Posted by Conando

You did a 40-50 hour story in 3 days. How is that not rushing?

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It was easily a quarter of that.

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Originally Posted by Mistyregions

Across the MMO universe I always find this thread. You know what I never find? A solution from the critics. They never have a solution other than "well add more endgame". Add what? More raids? How many is enough? What content do we need to clip in order to make this possible? Do we clip crafting? Housing? Glamour? Gathering? Maps? This is a business and you can't just tack on another 50 people to make endless content in one direction, no to mention people will complain it's just more of the same and grindy. So what's the answer? Who's fun do we take away in order to maximize your fun for a limited amount of time until there is something else to complain about endgame? I want a solution, a game design, a plan, a financial idea, something. Oddly enough my post will be met with a strawman argument, silence or a lack of forethought.

Heck you know what? Maybe you guys really need to post a well thought out and detailed production plan including story boarding etc etc to plant that seed in the designers heads because I imagine they never thought about it those casual designers have just been doing nothing but spinning their wheels on stuff like Maps. Maybe you can one up them and "show them how easy it is" heck you might get hired! Maybe even lead game designer! Jeebus.

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Yeah you and I both know there's no such thing as enough. As soon as new content is put in it would immediately get rushed through and then the whining would begin anew.

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Originally Posted by DevilsDontFly

While I agree with you, there's no amount of endgame content that's going to last for someone that can play 8+ hours a day every day, rushing or not. It might be sad but the truth is that today's gaming design is aimed at the concept of "people don't have enough time in their hands to do stuff". That's why MOBAs and battle royales became so popular over the majority of MMOs.

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Eureka was aimed at the people who have lots of time.

I have 18k hours of playtime now, or in other words around 2 years, I know how to keep me busy in the game xD

Am I the only one who kind of misses the Alexander-style raids that were more dungeon like instead of just a singular room? I liked that sense of exploration (however small) and how you were actually, you know, raiding something. Don't get me wrong Omega was neat and all and I'm interested to see how the Eden story unfolds but on the whole they feel more like trials than "raids".

Returning to the point, this is why they've been staggering content the way they have, but I understand feeling the lack of endgame things to do. Surely you haven't done everything the game has to offer though? There are the Superboss FATEs in Shb, the new elite hunt marks... maybe try working toward something on your achievement log?

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Originally Posted by Avraym

I would disagree - WoW mythics kept a LOT of end game players busy and entertained since they were almost "limitless". Each time they felt a little different with the randomised modifiers and drops.

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drops with random stats = Diadem

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

You can thank other players for this. Players in general do not want this in an MMO. Coil had small bits of this and people didn't want it so now we get what we get.

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You got a study that corroborates both of those statements? Ridiculous. There is no way for you to know either of these things, and it's beyond reckless to post them on a public forum.

Pro-tip: When you say "players in general" or "people didn't want", just stop. You don't speak for the masses.

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Originally Posted by Eli85

You got a study that corroborates both of those statements? Ridiculous. There is no way for you to know either of these things, and it's beyond reckless to post them on a public forum.

Pro-tip: When you say "players in general" or "people didn't want", just stop. You don't speak for the masses.

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I can say from experience that most parties advertised "sac-pull" or "trash-skipping" in their messages, and hell, people even sold/asked for the checkpoints in coil to get past trash and the miniboss in T1. It was incredibly common.

Also, a study, really? It'sevents that happened 5-6 years ago in a game, where most advertising was still done in shouts. Party finder didn't exist, people didn't really use reddit. There's no proof left. It's also just as reckless to post that it didn't happen without proof.

I guess its true....end game is glamour

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Originally Posted by Conando

You did a 40-50 hour story in 3 days. How is that not rushing?

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i didn't rush either and i beat the game in early access. I had the time available to do so and casually took my time on everything. in my FC, i was one of the slowest to complete.

I agree Endgame content is not nearly as robust as WoW or other MMO's, but unfortunately the FFXIV design philosophy does not compensate for the mind set that "The game starts at Endgame." One has to look at the fact that these developers have a large internal data collection on what players do and what feedback they are taking from. Square is more likely to respond to feedback from its eastern audience rather than its western audience.

Before Shadowbringers came out Yoshi P. did interviews all over the world during the media tour. A common question that came up from Western interviewers was about a Mythic+ like system for potential endgame. Short answer: "They encourage people to take breaks." The impression that the interviews got regarding it was that Yoshi P. just simply doesn't want to do it.

Great video about how the Media tour interviews questoins
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjMEzFhICPU

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Originally Posted by Destati

Am I the only one who kind of misses the Alexander-style raids that were more dungeon like instead of just a singular room? I liked that sense of exploration (however small) and how you were actually, you know, raiding something. Don't get me wrong Omega was neat and all and I'm interested to see how the Eden story unfolds but on the whole they feel more like trials than "raids".

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What you described is precisely the reason I'm gonna be clearing those raids for story purposes instead of farming them like I do with alliance raids. The labeling needs to change to "boss rush" or "Arena Battles" because everything that makes up a raid has been disposed of.

It's really disappointing because I had hopes they were gonna abandon this style of "raid" with SB but it's clear to me now that they intend to keep it this way and not for the conventional reason to please the playerbase.

there this thing called eden have you tried it yet it seem be an awesome end game stuff. also have you level up all your other jobs

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

I can say from experience that most parties advertised "sac-pull" or "trash-skipping" in their messages, and hell, people even sold/asked for the checkpoints in coil to get past trash and the miniboss in T1. It was incredibly common.

Also, a study, really? It'sevents that happened 5-6 years ago in a game, where most advertising was still done in shouts. Party finder didn't exist, people didn't really use reddit. There's no proof left. It's also just as reckless to post that it didn't happen without proof.

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You say that from your experience? That's called anecdotal evidence, which is reflective of your own, personal experience, and cannot be applied to anyone else (or, worse, even a game). Just because you experienced people asking to trash skip or sac pull, does not mean that is everyone's experience.

Yet, you would pronounce your own personal experience as the reason for a change. Please.

Post a study or metrics that corroborate the claim. If you do not, then you're just spreading misinformation.

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Originally Posted by Savagelf

there this thing called eden have you tried it yet it seem be an awesome end game stuff. also have you level up all your other jobs

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Eden—even in PUGs it's cleared in an hour (and with weekly loot lockouts, you're done for the week).

Leveling up all your other jobs—not end game content, no matter how you spin it.

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Originally Posted by Eli85

You say that from your experience? That's called anecdotal evidence, which is reflective of your own, personal experience, and cannot be applied to anyone else (or, worse, even a game). Just because you experienced people asking to trash skip or sac pull, does not mean that is everyone's experience.

Yet, you would pronounce your own personal experience as the reason for a change. Please.

Post a study or metrics that corroborate the claim. If you do not, then you're just spreading misinformation.

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Do you have a study showing otherwise?

Saying it's anecdotal evidence may be accurate sure. But there is no study that exists like I said. No one does studies on these things. You are just trying to get out of having to make a return argument. Did you have a different experience during Coil? Did you even raid when coil was a thing?

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Originally Posted by Eli85

You got a study that corroborates both of those statements? Ridiculous. There is no way for you to know either of these things, and it's beyond reckless to post them on a public forum.

Pro-tip: When you say "players in general" or "people didn't want", just stop. You don't speak for the masses.

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what's the recklessness? who has been harmed?

you don't have to believe it, every PUG, every static i was in wants to skip trash as fast as possible.

I love how people defend the lack of content endgame in the game. It reminds me of when people defended Blizzard with the Wow patches and having their players for 1 year with the same content. They are using the same damn excuses that people used to say in that game.

This commentary perfectly summarizes everything, the game has a PROBLEM but that problem is part of its philosophy.

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Originally Posted by Arthrun

I agree Endgame content is not nearly as robust as WoW or other MMO's, but unfortunately the FFXIV design philosophy does not compensate for the mind set that "The game starts at Endgame."

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Originally Posted by Nayout

I love how people defend the lack of content endgame in the game. It reminds me of when people defended Blizzard with the Wow patches and having their players for 1 year with the same content. They are using the same damn excuses that people used to say in that game.

This commentary perfectly summarizes everything, the game has a PROBLEM but that problem is part of its philosophy.

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See, design in wow focuses on "the game doesn't start until you are max level, everything else is garbage"

This is where people are saying xiv is different. As it focuses on the whole of the game, not just max level content.


Would you say final fantasy 7 is only the northern crater and the weapon fights? Or is it the whole of the game?

Try some glamours!

There is also a big difference between "There's not enough endgame content" vs "There's not enough endgame content I wanna do". What might be endgame content to some (PvE as an example) might not be endgame content to others (Hardcore dedicated crafting or gathering), and vice versa. There's tons of things to do in this game if you don't strictly stick to one single path and nothing else. However I can also see some stuff not being very appealing to some people. I see a lot of people comparing content in this game with WoW, however WoW is so heavily focused on max level PvE grind that, at least to me, it lacks on every other aspect of a gaming experience.

So the question is: The game doesn't have enough content period, or it doesn't have enough content aimed at your demographic in special? Because from my perspective it is evenly spread for all demographics instead of being heavily focused on one in specific. Which, of course, can lead to this very issue we're discussing right now, but even still I preffer this game's model compared to WoW's.

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Originally Posted by Nayout

I love how people defend the lack of content endgame in the game. It reminds me of when people defended Blizzard with the Wow patches and having their players for 1 year with the same content. They are using the same damn excuses that people used to say in that game.

This commentary perfectly summarizes everything, the game has a PROBLEM but that problem is part of its philosophy.

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It's not a game problem it's a player problem. Let me explain. As someone who works and generally only plays for a few hours in a day, there's more to do than I have time for. Yet people who play all day every day speed through everything then wonder why there's nothing to do. I see it all the time. Heck there were people who finished the MSQ the first weekend and they were already complaining.

One thing that truly stood out for me was that Yoshi P. stated he did not want FFXIV to be in competition with WoW or other MMO's. He wanted FFXIV to grow along side with the other games so players can have multiple different but similar games for players to enjoy for years to come. I don't recall which interview he said that on but it really stuck with me that statement gave me super profound respect for him other than his accomplishments.

I am quite happy with the feeling that once me and my team are finished with endgame content that FFXIV has provided, and I have everything I wanted out of it, to step back and enjoy something else for a while. Unlike WoW where you can fee like you need be engaged all the time, I can feel like I can actually play my back log of games that I have or watch anime that I have been meaning to watch in like forever. I still need to watch KonoSuba.

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Originally Posted by Arthrun

One thing that truly stood out for me was that Yoshi P. stated he did not want FFXIV to be in competition with WoW or other MMO's. He wanted FFXIV to grow along side with the other games so players can have multiple different but similar games for players to enjoy for years to come. I don't recall which interview he said that on but it really stuck with me that statement gave me super profound respect for him other than his accomplishments.

I am quite happy with the feeling that once me and my team are finished with endgame content that FFXIV has provided, and I have everything I wanted out of it, to step back and enjoy something else for a while. Unlike WoW where you can fee like you need be engaged all the time, I can feel like I can actually play my back log of games that I have or watch anime that I have been meaning to watch in like forever. I still need to watch KonoSuba.

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I dont pay a monthly sub to play other games...ijs

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Originally Posted by MonteCristo

I dont pay a monthly sub to play other games...ijs

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There have been pleanty of statements from the development team have stated that its ok to unsub for a while and come back when there is more contenr you would prefer to do. They seem to prioritize the player enjoyment over the metric's that WoW uses it seems to me.

Yeah well if you just burn through the game no life 24/7...

Started the game 2014, I am only 15% of Stormblood. Already bought the Shadow Collector.

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Originally Posted by Conando

You did a 40-50 hour story in 3 days. How is that not rushing?

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You are exaggerating, it was more 20-30 hours at the most.

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Originally Posted by MonteCristo

I dont pay a monthly sub to play other games...ijs

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you also don't pay high enough a sub for the contrary.