[Spoilers] I’m irrevocably Unimpressed

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Originally Posted by Raskbuck

Oh, please. That was after the fact we beat him and defied him. If you think he would've had a change of heart before being at death's door, you're sorely mistaken. And don't forget that, by Emet's own words, Zodiark is a primal and that every Ascian has been tempered by him. We were taught from the very beginning that primals require aether to sustain themselves, and if you think that Ascians and company are going to unsummon their God (which, I remind you, they have been tempered by) after the rejoining, you're also mistaken.

Zodiark exists to bend and change the laws of the universe, and they will continue this vicious cycle even after they bring back their people. And, even if they brought them back, they would likely be tempered by his will. No matter how you spin it, the end does not justify the mean. Ascians and company should make peace with their reality and realize their time has passed instead of holding onto an echo of a distant past.

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Remember, he did not need to fight us. At all. He already won. Just leaving us there to die would be a victory for him. He fighting us man-to-man is already a sign of... ehr respect? At least he sees potential in us.

I understood Emet Selch by the end, but I never agreed with him. Its impossible to go back. It would never be the same. We've seen what life brought back by a primal looks like with Lakshmi. It wasn't life at all. I imagine the fear for those that summoned Hydaelyn was that Zodiark would never be satisfied. We know that a primal must sustain themselves with Aether. Whether that aether comes from the land or from sacrifice. We know that souls are made up of aether. Do the souls of the people that are sacrificed go back to lifestream or are they gone forever?

It does bring up the question however on how if they were tempered; which they were. Then how did the '14th' leave to go start the great divide that caused the summoning of Mama Crystal? What did the missing '14th' - hinted to be us, do? Did we originally develop the echo in our 'Ancient' form, which stopped our tempering? It just seems so very confusing on how only one of the great Ancients in power managed to escape.


Also, how many Shards have they destroyed again? But by thinking on that, then by right the WoL with each joining/calamity the WoL/WoD on the source regained a part of their soul. So, we are near 'completion' we still have a few more fragments missing but we're close.

What is confusing, however, is how they thought this plan would work when one of the shards is completely messed up to the point even Emet is just 'well we made a mess out of that one.'

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Originally Posted by mario710

Someone please help me understand why the bad guys are never allowed to win?

Something seemed awfully wrong about the way Emet-Selch was taken out. By all accounts, he should have won.

I mean, are Ascians even evil?

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Its a clash of ideologies more or less. Emet's perspective is that since were nothing more than fragments or incomplete copies of their world, we're not living. We dont see it that way, and express as much. It was pretty much who wins is who is right. If our existence is to continue, it is necessary to defeat the ascians, even if theyre setting out to restore the world they hold dear. There is no middle ground at this point.

Mind you, The Ascian's point of view is inherently flawed. While its not 100% clear, there is this idea within Amarot that originality is key, but everything 'has to be approved' to their standards. The society snubs 'counterfeit', 'unoriginal', or 'incomplete, concepts or creations. There are some Amarotians who were arguing that there is value in flawed creations as those creations themselves are unique and different, and thus provide more diversity for their existence. Essentially this is an argument that the reflections have merit or worth before the sundering was a thing.

It's also worth noting that for the 'godlike' status of Amarotians, their knowledge was not limitless. The irony that Emet Selch failed to realize is that these lesser incomplete existences of the source and it's subsequent reflections managed to discover not only physical dimensional travel, but also time Travel - something the Amarotians were not capable of. Emet Selch failed to grasp that these 'lesser' existences in their unique nature had surpassed the originals in some capacity.

if Zodark came out death the Hydralian came for sacrifice to protect that life that Zodark wish to consume and she create life all out protect life it could be also possible that she create aether to create life. this what hydralian is the pole oppsite of Zodark Hydralian create life without realize it but protect that life she creates it a way protect the source and other shard for Zodark in her eye hydralian see action of Zodark as evil so the warrior of light service as Warrior of Darkness of first is necessary action by her design.

the ascains maybe slain but Zodark can find other tools to use he will problem remain the biggest threat the deaths of ascains won't change that for him

I kind wonder if they be able gain more warrior of lights on first with the view of those warrior of light seen in the worst lights.

maybe are ascain foe should lay low for couples expansion tried find recoup his loses

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Originally Posted by Savagelf

if Zodark came out death the Hydralian came for sacrifice to protect that life that Zodark wish to consume and she create life all out protect life it could be also possible that she create aether to create life. this what hydralian is the pole oppsite of Zodark Hydralian create life without realize it but protect that life she creates it a way protect the source and other shard for Zodark in her eye hydralian see action of Zodark as evil so the warrior of light service as Warrior of Darkness of first is necessary action by her design.

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Hydaelyn doesn't "create" life, though. She splits existing life into lesser copies containing the diminished aether of the original. While a representation of those that opposed the Ascian's first plans for Zodiark(From what I understand, Using a portion the new life to restore their people vs. Letting the new life flourish at the cost of their race) She is not a "Creator" and does not create aether with her abilities.

The "bad guys" have won at several occasions throughout this game's history though. At the end of 2.x and at the end of 3.x are huge examples of the bad guys doing nothing but winning, we also have the HUGE W for the Ascians at the end of 1.0. I feel like this game is extremely swingy, but I can understand that one section lost part of the feeling of there being stakes due to us "knowing" that it would end well because it couldn't end badly due to plot armor. But it is necessary plot armor as this IS an MMORPG with a story that shall continue, we can't have us dying, we can have massive consequences happening to us (which we have actually had at several occasions) but we can't be removed from the board so to speak, that is the narrative price we have to pay to have our avatar as the protagonist.

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Originally Posted by Gwenorai

It does bring up the question however on how if they were tempered; which they were. Then how did the '14th' leave to go start the great divide that caused the summoning of Mama Crystal? What did the missing '14th' - hinted to be us, do? Did we originally develop the echo in our 'Ancient' form, which stopped our tempering? It just seems so very confusing on how only one of the great Ancients in power managed to escape.


Also, how many Shards have they destroyed again? But by thinking on that, then by right the WoL with each joining/calamity the WoL/WoD on the source regained a part of their soul. So, we are near 'completion' we still have a few more fragments missing but we're close.

What is confusing, however, is how they thought this plan would work when one of the shards is completely messed up to the point even Emet is just 'well we made a mess out of that one.'

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The '14th' left before Zodiark was summoned, and their spot was filled.It's likely, btw, that whomever the 14th was, they were likely the person who set out to summon Hydaelin, as its reasonable to assume the 14th probably left because they felt the Zodiark plan was a terrible plan. I think it was expressed that it was extremely unusual for anyone to leave their position in the conclave (or whatever it was called). This is probably the case because its inferred we are a fragment of some particular Amarotian that Emet Selch knew. If were gonna go with story tropes, we're probably a fragment of the 14th member (which is why Hydaelin makes us her champion if we were the summoner of her.)

In any case, youre second point is about right. Theyve only destroyed 1 reflection (the 13th) and that was accidental. We are in theory becoming more powerful with each rejoining as we're coming closer to 'completion'. It's what probably makes it possible for us to be the WoL.

It's been noted a few times that Hydaelyn powers are waning or that she is weak, yet has never once asked for a sacrifice of aether from any that have the echo or her blessing.

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Originally Posted by Kallera

Hydaelyn doesn't "create" life, though. She splits existing life into lesser, diminished copies.

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See, this would have been fine if bloody Zodiark wasn't entwined with the star itself. No idea why they thought summoning a god and then having it so deeply entrenched within the very existence of the world was a good idea. It's like they just summoned a god-like figure then decided, well, it's a god, and gods create worlds - so for your service, we will now have you become part of the star - insert real-life jargon here about god and earth.

If Zodiark wasn't a part of the star then Hydaelyn's attack of 'sundering' wouldn't have resulted in this. So, all of the life that was on that star including all of the life that was being saved up for harvest was evenly split. This includes all of the life of the Ancients which - let's face it, was far too much.

Hydaelyn was supposed to give out life equally while Zodiark is the opposite. Billions for millions. Billions for thousands, etc. While with Hydaelyn it's all 'equal'.

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

It's also worth noting that for the 'godlike' status of Amarotians, their knowledge was not limitless. The irony that Emet Selch failed to realize is that these lesser incomplete existences of the source and it's subsequent reflections managed to discover not only physical dimensional travel, but also time Travel - something the Amarotians were not capable of. Emet Selch failed to grasp that these 'lesser' existences in their unique nature had surpassed the originals in some capacity.

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Actually, this does beg the question: where were the Ascians during the many year long development of this superb technology? I doubt it could be kept a secret.

Also, while a nitpick, we dont really know if the Ironworks reverse engineered time and dimensional travel or just mashed together parts of Omega and Alexander into the Crystal Tower making it all work somehow. All three being technologies out of this world.

Which then reminds me that Alexander is a weird one. He's a primal, basically made with the same Creation magic Amarotians used. Did they just not imagine time travel back then? Not see it as useful?

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Originally Posted by Kallera

Hydaelyn doesn't "create" life, though. She splits existing life into lesser, diminished copies.

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I think Emet Selchs characterization of Hydaelin is probably biased and incorrect. He's right in the outcome, but not in the reasoning. It may be more apt to say Hydaelyn diversifies life by breaking it down into smaller fragments. Like I mentioned above, some Amarotonians felt there was value in incomplete or counterfiet creations, as it added to diversity. I think that philosophy helped shape Hydaelin and what she's setting out to do. Remember, hydaelyn isnt breaking down life into nothingness. She only went so far.

It's not even clear if the sundering was a desired outcome, or a side effect of destroying zodiark.

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

I think Emet Selchs characterization of Hydaelin is probably biased and incorrect. He's right in the outcome, but not in the reasoning. It may be more apt to say Hydaelyn diversifies life by breaking it down into smaller fragments. Like I mentioned above, some Amarotonians felt there was value in incomplete or counterfiet creations, as it added to diversity. I think that philosophy helped shape Hydaelin and what she's setting out to do. Remember, hydaelyn isnt breaking down life into nothingness. She only went so far.

It's not even clear if the sundering was a desired outcome, or a side effect of destroying zodiark.

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I think this is why she's called 'Mother Crystal' in a sense as well. She is a mother, she gives 'birth' to life. She considers all life to be her children and treats them as such. I think a lot of answers can be found in the song 'Answers' as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWdeMqELN-U

I close my eyes, tell us why must we suffer
Release your hands, for your will drags us under
My legs grow tired, tell us where must we wander
How can we carry on if redemption's beyond us?
To all of my children in whom Life flows abundant
To all of my children to whom Death hath passed his judgement
The soul yearns for honor, and the flesh the hereafter
Look to those who walked before to lead those who walk after
Shining is the Land's light of justice
Ever flows the Land's well of purpose
Walk free, walk free, walk free, believe...
The Land is alive, so believe...
Suffer (Feel) Promise (Think) Witness (Teach) Reason
(Hear) Follow (Feel) Wander (Think) Stumble (Teach) Listen
(Speak) Honor (Speak) Value (Tell) Whisper (Tell) Mention
(Hope) Ponder (Hope) Warrant (Wish) Cherish (Wish) Welcome
(Roam) Witness (Roam) Listen (Roam) Suffer (Roam) Sanction
(Sleep) Weather (Sleep) Wander (Sleep) Answer Sleep on
Now open your eyes while our plight is repeated
Still deaf to our cries, lost in hope we lie defeated
Our souls have been torn, and our bodies forsaken
Bearing sins of the past, for our future is taken
War born of strife, these trials persuade us not
(Feel what? Learn what?)
Words without sound, these lies betray our thoughts
(See what? Hear what?)
Mired by a plague of doubt, the Land, she mourns
Judgement binds all we hold to a memory of scorn
Tell us why, given Life, we are meant to die, helpless in our cries?
Witness (Feel) Suffer (Think) Borrow (Teach) Reason
(Hear) Follow (Feel) Stumble (Think) Wander (Teach) Listen
(Blink) Whisper (Blink) Shoulder (Blink) Ponder (Blink) Weather
(Hear) Answer (Look) Answer (Think) Answer together
Thy Life is a riddle, to bear rapture and sorrow
To listen, to suffer, to entrust unto tomorrow
In one fleeting moment, from the Land doth life flow
Yet in one fleeting moment, for anew it doth grow
In the same fleeting moment
Thou must live
Die
And know

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Originally Posted by Gwenorai

See, this would have been fine if bloody Zodiark wasn't entwined with the star itself. No idea why they thought summoning a god and then having it so deeply entrenched within the very existence of the world was a good idea. It's like they just summoned a god-like figure then decided, well, it's a god, and gods create worlds - so for your service, we will now have you become part of the star - insert real-life jargon here about god and earth.

If Zodiark wasn't a part of the star then Hydaelyn's attack of 'sundering' wouldn't have resulted in this. So, all of the life that was on that star including all of the life that was being saved up for harvest was evenly split. This includes all of the life of the Ancients which - let's face it, was far too much.

Hydaelyn was supposed to give out life equally while Zodiark is the opposite. Billions for millions. Billions for thousands, etc. While with Hydaelyn it's all 'equal'.

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All speculation but there could be logic to it: They surmised that their calamity was due to the law of magic and the world going out of wack. Seeing it as an issue with the planet, giving the planet a will of its own seems more logical than creating a separate entity, that would then affect the planet.

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Originally Posted by Gwenorai

See, this would have been fine if bloody Zodiark wasn't entwined with the star itself. No idea why they thought summoning a god and then having it so deeply entrenched within the very existence of the world was a good idea. It's like they just summoned a god-like figure then decided, well, it's a god, and gods create worlds - so for your service, we will now have you become part of the star - insert real-life jargon here about god and earth.

If Zodiark wasn't a part of the star then Hydaelyn's attack of 'sundering' wouldn't have resulted in this. So, all of the life that was on that star including all of the life that was being saved up for harvest was evenly split. This includes all of the life of the Ancients which - let's face it, was far too much.

Hydaelyn was supposed to give out life equally while Zodiark is the opposite. Billions for millions. Billions for thousands, etc. While with Hydaelyn it's all 'equal'.

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Summoning "The Keeper of Precepts" as the will of the star was an idea because the Ancients were facing a star ending crisis. Inventors and Aetherologists aren't going to be terribly effective when the laws of physics and magic are falling apart.

In addition the acts requested of Zodiark were gargantuan. Rewriting the laws governing the star after they broke down in a cataclysmic mess, reseeding said star with life...And these beings are not the Q from Star Trek. It should be expected that such things do not come on the cheap. I don't think any such request of similar measure, save for stopping Zodiark, was made for Hydaelyn, it's probably likely she isn't capable of honoring such requests even if she heard it.

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Originally Posted by Kallera

Summoning "The Keeper of Precepts" as the will of the star was an idea because the Ancients were facing a star ending crisis.

In addition the acts requested of Zodiark were gargantuan. Rewriting the laws governing the star after they broke down in a cataclysmic mess, reseeding said star with life...And these beings are not the Q from Star Trek. It should be expected that such things do not come on the cheap. I don't think any such request of similar measure, save for stopping Zodiark, was made for Hydaelyn, it's probably likely she isn't capable of honoring such requests even if she heard it.

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It's just maddening why they thought doing this in the first place was going to be a good idea. Such desperation they must have been in. I wonder if there's more to it. Who gave them the idea to do what they did? Bah, such speculation gets me excited for the rest of this expansion.

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Originally Posted by Lersayil

Actually, this does beg the question: where were the Ascians during the many year long development of this superb technology? I doubt it could be kept a secret.

Also, while a nitpick, we dont really know if the Ironworks reverse engineered time and dimensional travel or just mashed together parts of Omega and Alexander into the Crystal Tower making it all work somehow. All three being technologies out of this world.

Which then reminds me that Alexander is a weird one. He's a primal, basically made with the same Creation magic Amarotians used. Did they just not imagine time travel back then? Not see it as useful?

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The Ascians were probably occupied with setting up the next rejoining OR they didnt seem to care thinking that these incomplete beings couldnt possibly come up with anything original. Might be a mix of both, considering Emet's demeanor.

It's also likely that Ironworks did reverse engineer Omega/Alexander/ and CT, as Ironworks was heavily involved in the study of these three. Even then, their creation wasnt perfect. It required someone bind with the CT, and the time jump was off. It's also a one way ticket by appearance, meaning the CT is stuck there now, and now possibly out of the time loop itself (as that future was averted to the best of our knowledge). Mind you, for dimensional and time travel to occur, they needed all three aspects - Wings of time (Alexander), Dimensional Creation (Omega), and a conduit (CT). Emet oversaw CT, but Alexander was a creation of reflections, and Omega is...??????. Im not sure where omega comes from. The story seemed to insinuate that Omega and Midgardsormir came from a completely different star (not a reflection or the source). Which if that is the case, that would make Omega tech hyper advanced, even by amarotonian standards.

They, btw, probably couldnt visualize Alexander because in many ways their thinking was hyper rigid. Considering the power and scope, they wouldve needed a lot of Amarotians to actually summon Alexander, and their way of thinking probably barred them from doing it effectively. Maybe they thought time travel impossible due to the paradox issue so they didnt attempt it. This is just another indirect example of the reflections surpassing the originals though.

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Originally Posted by Gwenorai

It's just maddening why they thought doing this in the first place was going to be a good idea. Such desperation they must have been in. I wonder if there's more to it. Who gave them the idea to do what they did? Bah, such speculation gets me excited for the rest of this expansion.

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It was desperation but also hubris. They felt if they could give the planet a will, that it would will itself into the proper state of things. It was a reflection of their thinking - that if they could control creation itself, they would create perfection. That obviously didnt work out, as it was their control of creation magic that probably ended up causing the crisis in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Lersayil

They want to genocide entire planets. No they're not evil (neither good though) and yes they need to die.

Their plight is sympathetic, relatable, and absolutely opposite and unreconcilable with ours. Basically what makes a good villain.

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There's nothing sympathetic about it. Their world ended thousands of years ago. Move the fuck on and stop trying to drag over a dozen worlds full of people into your pity party.

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Originally Posted by Lersayil

While I dont agree with the "they should be winning" part, we... did kinda shonen pull this victory out of nowhere, didn't we? Emet was handing us our backside the whole time, WoL and Scions included. The Exarch pulling in the different WoLs was also really deus-ex-ey, given what we know about the difficulty and energy required for such a summoning. We even had a super-saiyan moment!

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I don't think it's that shocking. Emet's victory was contingent on us failing to contain the light. When we merged Ardbert's soul into us, the WoL soul became more complete than the ascians had anticipated it to be, and that frankly changes everything. We contained the light and then used it to destroy his soul. Game over.

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Originally Posted by Gwenorai

It does bring up the question however on how if they were tempered; which they were. Then how did the '14th' leave to go start the great divide that caused the summoning of Mama Crystal? What did the missing '14th' - hinted to be us, do? Did we originally develop the echo in our 'Ancient' form, which stopped our tempering? It just seems so very confusing on how only one of the great Ancients in power managed to escape.


Also, how many Shards have they destroyed again? But by thinking on that, then by right the WoL with each joining/calamity the WoL/WoD on the source regained a part of their soul. So, we are near 'completion' we still have a few more fragments missing but we're close.

What is confusing, however, is how they thought this plan would work when one of the shards is completely messed up to the point even Emet is just 'well we made a mess out of that one.'

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The 14th had left their post shortly before the moment Emet-Selch recreated, and a member of the Convocation leaving their post was apparently unprecedented.

On the subject of the WoL's completion and the destroyed shard, do keep in mind that not everyone from the 13th died or became a Voidsent. One, possessed of the Echo and seemingly destined to become a Warrior of Light, was born too late to fulfill his role. Despite that, Elidibus saved him.

https://i.imgur.com/kzdTmlt.png

I'm not saying that Unukalhai is a fragment that Elidibus was going to use to show the WoL the truth, but...

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Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

There's nothing sympathetic about it. Their world ended thousands of years ago. Move the fuck on and stop trying to drag over a dozen worlds full of people into your pity party.

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What is a few thousand years to an immortal really? Also a dozen of worlds worth of things which you don't consider human or think worth preserving in their current state. In a similar situation many would consider what he is doing, granted few would actually realize or admit it until such a situation presents itself.

For reference I wouldn't, but then, unlike him, I'm a misanthrope.

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Originally Posted by Lersayil

What is a few thousand years to an immortal really? Also a dozen of worlds worth of things which you don't consider human or think worth preserving in their current state. In a similar situation many would consider what he is doing, granted few would actually realize or admit it until such a situation presents itself.

For reference I wouldn't, but then, unlike him, I'm a misanthrope.

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The key problem with Emet's plan is that he has no means to prevent such the worlds from splitting again. It would be like rebuilding the Notre Dame Cathedral exactly as it was and forgetting it could catch fire again. These disasters happened for a reason and Emet has not been searching for a solution, he just wants to roll back the clock.

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Originally Posted by mario710

Someone please help me understand why the bad guys are never allowed to win?

Something seemed awfully wrong about the way Emet-Selch was taken out. By all accounts, he should have won.

I mean, are Ascians even evil?

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I mean, yeah. They intended to fast track 8 more calamities to have all of the reflections rejoin the source. A feat which, in itself, is tantamount to genocide on a cosmic scale. Then they were going to take the lucky souls that managed to survive such a hell and sacrifice them to Zodiark, just so they could get the friends back that they had to sacrifice in the first place to summon Zodiark at all.

No matter what way you try to squeeze that, it's evil. Yeah they miss their world, and their society, but it's gone, and in-part it was by their own doing.

What's worse is they screwed up one of the reflections all together and created the Void.

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Originally Posted by Averax

I mean, yeah. They intended to fast track 8 more calamities to have all of the reflections rejoin the source. A feat which, in itself, is tantamount to genocide on a cosmic scale. Then they were going to take the lucky souls that managed to survive such a hell and sacrifice them to Zodiark, just so they could get the friends back that they had to sacrifice in the first place to summon Zodiark at all.

No matter what way you try to squeeze that, it's evil. Yeah they miss their world, and their society, but it's gone, and in-part it was by their own doing.

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Is it truly so evil? Do we not raise livestock that are fated to be consumed by us?

I don't think we should be so quick to call them immoral for it when we as humans do similar things and most of us don't even think twice about it.

Honestly I too hoped with SHB's storyline that the ending wouldn't be all black and white. They did a great job muddling the water during the story, yet at the end everything becomes light = good and dark = bad again, which is very sad.

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Originally Posted by Lersayil

What is a few thousand years to an immortal really? Also a dozen of worlds worth of things which you don't consider human or think worth preserving in their current state. In a similar situation many would consider what he is doing, granted few would actually realize or admit it until such a situation presents itself.

For reference I wouldn't, but then, unlike him, I'm a misanthrope.

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You don't get to say "I don't think your life matters" and just expect it to be okay to murder you.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

Is it truly so evil? Do we not raise livestock that are fated to be consumed by us?

I don't think we should be so quick to call them immoral for it when we as humans do similar things and most of us don't even think twice about it.

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Well, this isnt quite a decent comparison because you cant carry on conversations with cows, nor have chickens created advanced civilizations (that we know of.)

The Ascians full well understand that we are sentient, capable of reason, and advanced from the more 'common beasts'. Their distinction is that were incomplete, and that imperfection results in worlds that know suffering, death, and decay. All the wars, differences, and pettyness arises from being shards of the original, not necessarily that were incompetent. Because of that imperfection and 'counterfeit' nature of our existence, he doesnt deem us to be alive by their society's standards.

In their eyes, its not evil because they dont see us as alive, but to us it is evil because we consider ourselves alive. The game mitigate's against Emet's position, however, when you realize that the Amarotonian's personal perception of themselves is incredibly flawed. Again, they see them selves as the pinnacle, yet it was these incomplete shards that had surpassed them in knowledge and technology in certain areas (Emet and the Ascians never figured out moving a physical person across dimensions, let alone time.)

They addressed this. The plan was once all the reflections were rejoined, all life on the Source would be sacrificed to give Zodiark enough aether to restore their world to full.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

Is it truly so evil? Do we not raise livestock that are fated to be consumed by us?

I don't think we should be so quick to call them immoral for it when we as humans do similar things and most of us don't even think twice about it.

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We don't raise livestock to commit extinction. The cows and chickens are very much protected by humanity. We even go to great lengths to preserve the lives of Pandas despite their best efforts to become extinct. Horses now are treated better than most poor peoples now

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

Well, this isnt quite a decent comparison because you cant carry on conversations with cows, nor have chickens created advanced civilizations (that we know of.)

The Ascians full well understand that we are sentient, capable of reason, and advanced from the more 'common beasts'. Their distinction is that were incomplete, and that imperfection results in worlds that know suffering, death, and decay. All the wars, differences, and pettyness arises from being shards of the original, not necessarily that were incompetent. Because of that imperfection and 'counterfeit' nature of our existence, he doesnt deem us to be alive by their society's standards.

In their eyes, its not evil because they dont see us as alive, but to us it is evil because we consider ourselves alive. The game mitigate's against Emet's position, however, when you realize that the Amarotonian's personal perception of themselves is incredibly flawed. Again, they see them selves as the pinnacle, yet it was these incomplete shards that had surpassed them in knowledge and technology in certain areas (Emet and the Ascians never figured out moving a physical person across dimensions, let alone time.)

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It's all moral relativism, of course. No one group gets to decide where and when the line of morality is crossed. There's nothing absolute that leads to the conclusion that sentience, or sapience, is the crossing point. We don't get to decide that.

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Originally Posted by Edax

We don't raise livestock to commit extinction.

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To that chicken you ate, it may as well have become extinct. Its life is over. There's nothing left for it.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

To that chicken you ate, it may as well have become extinct. Its life is over. There's nothing left for it.

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No, you are completely wrong. The global population of chickens has skyrocketed since domestication. That chicken I ate is the furthest from extinction it's ever been.

ex·tinct
/ikˈstiNG(k)t/

adjective
(of a species, family, or other larger group) having no living members.

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Originally Posted by Edax

No, you are completely wrong. The global population of chickens has skyrocketed since domestication. That chicken I ate is the furthest from extinction it's ever been.

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But what does that matter to the specific chicken that you ate? Whether it's extinct or not, its life is over. It has no life left. As far as it's concerned (if it could be concerned), the rest of its kin may as well be dead, too. Everything has ended for that chicken. The world is no more.

"But think about it... you've gone from losing nearly everything only to try to find some comfort in these new beings, and then well, it didn't work out well for him. He has most likely loved some mortals, he's had children with them, cared for them and each time they have perished and died and slipped through his fingers like sand." A quote from a previous poster. Yes, I can see this. I know I am the last of my family and it feels so much empty, void, pointless now. Its hard not to think I would do anything to get them all back. But..a twist of fate, for me a very hard lonely existence without them all. I would not want anyone else to experience this even if I hated them with all my being, it would be something I would spare anyone from if I could. I suppose a breaking of the mind of sorts is easy to fall into, a type of insanity to soothe the injustice, pain, total loss could tip someone, I know I've had my moments. Its relatable for me. But, I would never do it, if nothing else but to not tarnish their memory, their legacy, their story in their place in history.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

But what does that matter to the specific chicken that you ate? Whether it's extinct or not, its life is over. It has no life left. As far as it's concerned (if it could be concerned), the rest of its kin may as well be dead, too. Everything has ended for that chicken.

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You speak for the chicken? The reason I have a Will is that I actually care for my kin, regardless if I live or not.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

But what does that matter to the specific chicken that you ate? Whether it's extinct or not, its life is over. It has no life left. As far as it's concerned (if it could be concerned), the rest of its kin may as well be dead, too. Everything has ended for that chicken. The world is no more.

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This is more along the lines of like, the crusades or the inquisition. Killing other indiscriminately because you don't "see them as people" to keep your own values upheld. In this case, they want to destroy 7 more shards in order to bring their people back, who sacrificed themselves willingly to save their planet, which they failed to do. Who's to say they can even do so with the 13th shard being, and I quote "completely fudged" and now a mess of void.


They messed up a shard so much it couldn't rejoin the source. Who's to say the first wouldn't have eventually gone that bad. It's entirely possible they wouldn't even be able to bring back fully everyone, as according to them, as long as there are shards the people can't be complete, and since the 13th can never rejoin people can't be complete.

At least that's my understanding.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

This is more along the lines of like, the crusades or the inquisition. Killing other indiscriminately because you don't "see them as people" to keep your own values upheld. In this case, they want to destroy 7 more shards in order to bring their people back, who sacrificed themselves willingly to save their planet, which they failed to do. Who's to say they can even do so with the 13th shard being, and I quote "completely fudged" and now a mess of void.


They messed up a shard so much it couldn't rejoin the source. Who's to say the first wouldn't have eventually gone that bad. It's entirely possible they wouldn't even be able to bring back fully everyone, as according to them, as long as there are shards the people can't be complete, and since the 13th can never rejoin people can't be complete.

At least that's my understanding.

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That's a problem to be figured out after they've destroyed all life on 5 more planets.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

To that chicken you ate, it may as well have become extinct. Its life is over. There's nothing left for it.

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Not really an appropriate comparison. Ascians aren't raising people for food, they are scheming to sacrifice them to a primal.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

This is more along the lines of like, the crusades or the inquisition. Killing other indiscriminately because you don't "see them as people" to keep your own values upheld. In this case, they want to destroy 7 more shards in order to bring their people back, who sacrificed themselves willingly to save their planet, which they failed to do. Who's to say they can even do so with the 13th shard being, and I quote "completely fudged" and now a mess of void.

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I'd say it's far more like livestock. All that life that they're going to kill isn't just because they don't see them as people. They plan to use them as fuel (aether). It's very similar to eating, i.e., consuming them.

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Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

Ascians aren't raising people for food, they are scheming to sacrifice them to a primal.

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Or, another way to look at it, they're feeding them to Zodiark. Zodiark must use their aether to accomplish what they want of it. The Ascians may not be the ones eating them, but Zodiark is, in a way.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

I'd say it's far more like livestock. All that life that they're going to kill isn't just because they don't see them as people. They plan to use them as fuel (aether). It's very similar to eating, i.e., consuming them.

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They are more acting like beast men, sacrificing people (crystals) for aether to summon a primal. They aren't using us as livestock because they don't eat us. Also, we at least recognize our food is alive, and there are laws in place to make the livestocks lives at least decent enough, though I agree that not all places abide by these laws and they could be better.

But animal cruelty is a thing that is frowned upon. The Ascians have no one left to judge them on ethics and morals.