Pulling the bosses In dungeons as DPS a thing now?

Countdowns really aren't necessary in a dungeon like that. I've been leveling DPS lately and I actually appreciate it more when a tank just gets straight to it so I can better maintain my stacks.

Well given that Tanks are just DPS with a simplified rotation now. No wonder the DPS just started pulling stuff.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

The "Tanks are better" rhetoric would hold more weight if tanks didn't just turn into discount melee over the expansions.

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i hate to admit it but you are right -_-, how ever it hasent just been since the shB expan that this has been happening, i would say since SB when the meta shifted form " do your job" ( ie tank holds agro and healers heal with a side of dps) to everyone MUST DPS. and that community mind set cleary shows in ShB seein as now all the tanks are little more then well armored DPS now.

I've played most roles in this game. Most of my raid endeavors have always been as a DPS. Now since I've been tanking more... at the start of a dungeon I always ask "big pull or small"? If they don't care I'll do a big one at the start and see how it is handled.

The key thing is... I am always sprinting to my next set of monsters to pull and rarely am I sticking around for a last hit. I know that by being fast, I give my dps more chances to have their buffs up and kill faster. Killing faster in turns makes me take less dmg and that in turn means less healing. If a person pulls before me, so what? I don't care. That means I'm likely going too slow for their liking. If the healer has been keeping up with all their heals, then what is the issue?

As a tank my job is to tank, not cry or moan because the dps pulled. Only if the healer is struggling will I say anything, that or if the entire group is new players.

Given the amount of straw man thrown in here, I really wasn't looking forward to reply to this. But here we go anyway.

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Originally Posted by Intellion

As someone who mained a BRD for four years before recently switching mains to DRK, and actually using those four years to properly learn DPS gameplay and even clearing a lot of high-end content, all I can say is this.
This kind of thinking is DPS Arrogance in its finest.

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It was a nice try to to use the same phrasing as people did prior, but here is why it falls flat: The mindset presented comes from a tank. I've actually played all roles on SB, but mostly tanks. So there is no DPS "arrogance" in here. This is actually about Tank humility. I'm only asking other tanks to behave like any other member instead of believing they are kings. Clearly a lot of people here have a problem with that.

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Originally Posted by Intellion

Our job as a DPS is to support the tank and healer by burning down enemies ASAP.
While I agree that DPS pulling bosses is only a minor inconvenience, when DPS start behaving arrogantly and start pulling additional mobs that the tanks/healers don't want to deal with at the moment, then yeah, the tank/healer deserves to let that DPS die.
Why? Because that DPS is being full of himself/herself by thinking that they lead the party, when that job belongs to the tank. In other words, DPS that try to steal the tank's job ARE NOT playing their role properly... and in my opinion, deserves to be kicked more than an angry tank that just wants to do their job in peace.

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Wow, calm down there. The DPS role job is to support the party, just like healers and tanks. But they do so by dealing as much damage as possible. I find it amusing how you put it though, like the DPS are subordinates to the one "true roles". Are you serious right now? You gotta be trolling at this point. People love to say that if the Healer or Tank dies, the run is over... but if a DPS die, well, it's just a minor inconvenience. Interestingly, though, this kinda of mentality is exclusive to the DutyFinder dungeons. Why? Because the moment an enrage mechanic is implemented, you start to see these kinda of players vanish out since in order to actually play these kinds of contents, you need to play optimally as a team, which means respecting every role on the same standard, including the DPS. If you let a DPS die because they touched an ADD before you to keep uptime, the whole party is susceptible to wiping to the enrage. A tank with that mentality would be kicked in an instant.

Second part of this, all straw man. It's obvious, if any member of the group starts doing things recklessly, including but not restricted to DPS pulling mobs with the intent of ruining the run, they are in the wrong. No one here is saying DPS are above team cooperation. What people are defending, though, is that neither are tanks and healers. The DPS who pulled because they wanted to keep their buffs up is one hundred times more worth keeping than the tank that got angry solely because their ego got hurt and couldn't bother to push a button to re-stabilish aggro 'cause "uh muh feelings". This is not an opinion by the way, this is a fact.

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Originally Posted by Intellion

So for any DPS with that kind of arrogance, heed my words as a fellow DPS:
Do your dang job and learn your place. In the end, tanks and healers have insta-queues; you do NOT.

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Originally Posted by Klb600

Once the DRK and GNB hype dies down lets see how long you will still have that mentality.

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And here we are again, the central point of the whole argument where everything comes down to: I have insta queue, you do not. When there's no more feasible way you could possible hide the fact this is indeed about hurt ego, the inevitable proof comes to surface. People believe they are superior just because of a slight, circunstancial advantage over one of their party members.

And suitably, for every content where queuing time is not a factor, also read as content that requires some level of skill and cooperation, this problem does not exist.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Just one pack, huh?

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Yep i pull safely, omg you might have to spend an extra 3-5 minutes in the dungeon. if you see me feel free to go back to the 10 minute DPS queue.

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Originally Posted by cjparmen

i hate to admit it but you are right -_-, how ever it hasent just been since the shB expan that this has been happening, i would say since SB when the meta shifted form " do your job" ( ie tank holds agro and healers heal with a side of dps) to everyone MUST DPS. and that community mind set cleary shows in ShB seein as now all the tanks are little more then well armored DPS now.

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till i see DPSers reliably hold agro, and not die to bosses on current content without having godlike gear. the whole idea that tanks are just "discount dps" is absurd. has tanking becoming easier? yeah definitely holding agro is easier than ever but i had no problem holding agro in the past. maybe some of you had problems because you were DPS stance 90% of the time.

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Originally Posted by Vulcann

Yep i pull safely, omg you might have to spend an extra 3-5 minutes in the dungeon. if you see me feel free to go back to the 10 minute DPS queue.

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No, I'll go pull the pack. And when you let me die to teach me my place, I'll stop healing you to teach you yours. ;)

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Originally Posted by Vulcann

till i see DPSers reliably hold agro, and not die to bosses on current content without having godlike gear. the whole idea that tanks are just "discount dps" is absurd. has tanking becoming easier? yeah definitely holding agro is easier than ever but i had no problem holding agro in the past. maybe some of you had problems because you were DPS stance 90% of the time.

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Currently you really are discount dps, aggro is now braindead easy to hold and everything else you do is incredible straightforward. It's not absurd, it's now the truth.

As others have said, aggro is so easy now that there is no reason to sweat someone getting ahead of a tank in normal dungeons.
I can see healers, or maybe the other dps, feeling upset by a dps early pull throwing a wrench in their plans, but as a tank our rotations are always fairly simple and we can pretty much grab aggro spamming any button with our (zero penalty) tank stance on.
Gone are the days when an early pull might force a tank to fall behind their rotation/opener as they desperately spam Overpower or some other one-button enmity move to catch up.

Many tanks see themselves as the de facto 'leaders' of the party. As a tank main, the way I see it is this:

If people are running ahead of me, that means I'm not running fast enough. If people wanna go all out, I should be ready to go all out.
If I'm not ready to go as hard as the other people on my team, what right do I have to say I am leading it?

Our job as tanks is to hold aggro and help kill everything as quickly as possible while making the healer's job as consistent/predictable as possible. That means being ready to be the first one to die. If someone dies before me because they have aggro on something, I've done something wrong. To deliberately let someone keep aggro and die is a complete abandonment of our responsibilities as a tank.

If you want to be the leader, you need to lead. Do your job, or someone else is gonna do it for you.
If you want to be a tank, you need to tank. Do your job, or someone else is gonna do it for you.

Being a leader is a responsibility, not a right. It's about taking care of your teammates and doing everything you can to make the team successful, not having things go exactly the way you think they should.
If someone pulls more than you did, they are saying they think you guys can handle it. They may be right, they may be wrong, but it doesn't matter now because there is no reversing course on aggro. Once mobs are pulled, they'll be attacking until either they die or you all die. Are you going to do your job and tank, or are you going to sit back and complain/feel wronged?

If you don't step up to your responsibilities as a tank or leader, you are failing at your job.
A lot of players who run on tank roles don't seem to understand this, instead acting as if they have special status and only need to do things if they feel like it. That is the "tank entitlement" that many people are talking about.

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Originally Posted by battleshadow66

Currently you really are discount dps, aggro is now braindead easy to hold and everything else you do is incredible straightforward. It's not absurd, it's now the truth.

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can DPS hold agro reliably?

can DPS handle current content bosses? without being over-geared?

until i see that CONSISTENTLY then we tanks are not discount dps

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Originally Posted by battleshadow66

Currently you really are discount dps, aggro is now braindead easy to hold and everything else you do is incredible straightforward. It's not absurd, it's now the truth.

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mobs do more damage than ever before in dungeon, dps cant even be a discount tank its kinda sad.

A DD who pulls is nothing different than a tank who rotates the boss for no reason, cleaves the party or in general people who live in the mindset the healer has to adjust because they are too lazy to do mechanics. And yes, also tanks who need 30 seconds to pull a boss.

They are trolling their fellow players.

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Originally Posted by Machka

As others have said, aggro is so easy now that there is no reason to sweat someone getting ahead of a tank in normal dungeons.

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See it's statements like this that show me that people don't understand why some tanks get irritated by a DPS pulling mobs. It's not that getting aggro back is hard. It never was. The problem is the DPS feeling entitled and in such a hurry that they'll see the tank pull a group or two, then go "hm, I see that they intend to tank this way, but I'm going to disregard that and do what I want anyway" without any sort of communication. If a DPS asks me to do larger pulls, that's one thing. If they just use sprint and run ahead of me to make things go faster, that shows me that they don't respect me or my choices.

It's like getting in a taxi as a passenger and then reaching over and slamming your foot on the gas. You're not driving. You can ask them to hurry, but you're not the one that controls how fast it goes.

If you want to pull and speedrun through dungeons, be a tank. The end.

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Originally Posted by Doozer

If you want to pull and speedrun through dungeons, be a tank. The end.

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I really dislike dps pulling
They are squishy and when don’t always turn the boss the fight way and cleaving everyone in party, and it is just rude, if dps feel the fight is going bit too slow just ask

I still hate it more if a healer does it. Dps can die if they do it, my healer though.... shoot, we'll all die if they die SO I GUESS I'M PULLING WHAT THEY WANT TO PULL. If I don't, they'll complain why I didn't and I'll say "why are you in such a hurry" and they get mad. I hate when the healer believes its their ruling to sprint forward and take aggro of things then guide it to the tank as if they knew the tank could handle it or they're so stuck up their own butt that they think their healing > EVERYTHING.

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Originally Posted by Valic

I still hate it more if a healer does it. Dps can die if they do it, my healer though.... shoot, we'll all die if they die SO I GUESS I'M PULLING WHAT THEY WANT TO PULL. If I don't, they'll complain why I didn't and I'll say "why are you in such a hurry" and they get mad. I hate when the healer believes its their ruling to sprint forward and take aggro of things then guide it to the tank as if they knew the tank could handle it or they're so stuck up their own butt that they think their healing > EVERYTHING.

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*gets literarly mad at the same power trip of healers that he does as tank to other players*
pottery

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Originally Posted by Doozer

If you want to pull and speedrun through dungeons, be a tank. The end.

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I think you missed the part where I said I am a tank. My statements are from a tank, for tanks.

As a tank you are not the driver of a taxi, nor are you the captain of the ship. You are one part of a team. The fact that you see yourself as the one solely in charge when tanking just shows that you have a twisted view of a tank's role in a party.

Being a tank doesn't mean you suddenly have some special status. If you are a tank, you chose that role and its responsibilities on your own. You want people to 'respect you and your choices'? Earn it by being a good tank and performing your job with excellence. No one owes you anything simply for being a tank and doing your job. If you think they do, then you have an entitled mindset.

If you want to be the leader of a party then you need to be able to lead. If you are going slower than the rest of your party wants to go then you are holding them back. You don't need to speedrun if you don't want to, but party members also don't need to go at your pace if they don't want to. A good tank is able to to adapt to the performance of their party and allow the team to be as effective as possible.

My point with the statement you quoted is that tanks now have such powerful aggro tools that a party member running ahead and pulling more is no more than a minor annoyance that can be solved with the press of a single button. A leader and team player would make use of those tools to keep a team functioning optimally instead thinking/feeling angry about how they're not getting their way. OP did not act like a leader or team player, by their own account of things. Instead of stepping up to the challenge, they threw a tantrum. Those are the actions of a tyrant or a toddler, not a leader.

In the end, it's more about communication problems.

As a tank I always do big pulls, and if I trust my healer, wall-to-walls. Personnaly I do think that I'm going at the right pace for the group, not too fast for the healer to handle but not too slow for the DDs to get mad. Plus, the right CD-management makes those kind of pulls easy to handle for everyone. And if people want me not to do those big pulls, I'll adjust. It's part of the job to be able to suit your group's needs in terms of pulling.

But that's for the packs. When I arrive to the boss, I pull when the other 3 are here (waiting for the NIN to do their Huton thingy). It's as simple as that. For now I don't have as much problems as you guys with DDs pulling, but if I see someone pulling more than once before me, I first tell them not to do that, because it's rude and I'm going as fast as I can for the group, and if they continue, it's a votekick. It's as simple as that.

See, DDs can argue how much they want.

"I may lose my stacks" - BOTD is on a 30-second basis and can litteraly be refreshed before losing your eyes (but you need a good ping), Anatman exists, Umbral Soul is great, SMN doesn't have much stack-y things etc etc.

"It'll be faster" - Yeah. You've gained approx. 2 seconds of your time. Grats.

"Tanks are discount DDs" - More or less. But in the end, DDs that don't take a ton of damage to every attack in the game. Which is why they are called TANKS.

Pulling before a tank isn't respectful, no matter how much you want to see it. And it's not a matter of "they can take the aggro back extremely fast", it's not the problem. It's just a matter of manners. If you need something from the tank, ask him. With Shadowbringers, there's a LOT of new tanks, newcomers, beginners that are fearful of the job. Just pace along with them. Let them know they can tank more mobs, because they can. By antagonizing them and disrespect them, you'll create an atmosphere that FF players don't want to see, a tryharding, unfriendly place to play with randoms (basically, Counter Strike or Call of Duty). So please, random DDs. If your tank doesn't suit you, talk to them and help them comprehend their job (if you know it in the first place). It's as simple as that.

We're not getting anywhere berating each other like this. Every role's job is to support the party. Everyone should be working together to ensure the run goes smoothly.

I can understand some tanks taking it a bit slow at the start since they do have to gauge what the party can do if no one speaks. I have been in situations where my fellow damage dealer is single targeting on a pull of 10 enemies. It made me cry a little inside because the enemies were starting to become a burden to the tank and healer living too long. I also see big pulls becoming hindered because a DPS can't cool their jets with the first group being dragged. I can understand DoTting or using buff attacks to prep for the mega AoE as long as they watch their threat. But when the other DPS and I were indeed melting the group and letting the tank have aggro, the tank responded with a much bigger pull for us.

Sometimes a little kindness goes a long way. If one wants respect, they must offer the same gesture as well. If the tank could stand to pull faster and possibly with more enemies, the best advice I can give is to communicate with them. Passive aggressive pulls might serve to do the opposite since you might be telling the tank they can't drag the first group to the second anymore. As I said earlier, spreading out the enemies makes holding aggro way harder than it should be. Plus the DPS and Healer players with aggro obviously take more damage and burden the Healers. If the tank really is an entitled brat, then I won't argue with kicking them. DPS may have long queue times, but this is different with DPS already in the dungeon.

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Originally Posted by Vulcann

just had this the other night

i pulled a pack and had aggro and the DPSer ran in front of me and pulled the next pack of mobs. I simply told my wife (the white mage of the group) "don't heal xxxxx and don't rez him", causing the DPSer to die and run back. Guess what that dps DIDN'T do the rest of the dungeon?

if you said "attack things that the tank didn't" ... you would be correct.

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You just displayed perfectly why I don't like running content with couples- "Us against the party". Would you complain if a healer was AFK healing while casting a heal every 10 seconds? I'm sure you would. Would you complain if a DPS wasn't using oGCD abilities, single targeting groups or, and lord knows why, exclusively using AoEs on a boss? I'm sure you would because these are all examples of intentionally poor play. Burdens- like a small pull tank. I understand if it's a tanks first time in a duty, or they aren't that experienced in the game- but let's face it, you're likely neither. This kind of arrogance only comes from experience.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

No, I'll go pull the pack. And when you let me die to teach me my place, I'll stop healing you to teach you yours. ;)

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This is a hilarious comeback, bravo.

It's pretty rare for me to have a healer or dps pull a boss when I'm tanking. I mean, it's not that uncommon in like, Satasha or Totorak, but in high level stuff I almost never see it. Though it did happen to me once in arboretum hard, which particularly annoyed me because the ninja wasn't aoeing the whole dungeon. I didn't see a single katon or doton. And that was when we still had TP and I never saw his tp dipping low to suggest he was using death blossom either. Yet when we got to the last boss and stopped for 5 seconds to ask 'who wants to handle the mud pie' the ninja just ran right in and pulled.

Oh I'm sorry were you in a hurry? Maybe you shouldn't have been single targeting the whole dungeon then.

On occasion, I will get a dps that pulls enemies, but bosses is pretty rare. Though so is the former since more often than not I go for big pulls anyway.

In content that matters, you pull it, you tank it. I’m a old school player, tank sets the pace the others just follow

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Originally Posted by silentdevo

In content that matters, you pull it, you tank it. I’m a old school player, tank sets the pace the others just follow

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Personally I let healer set the pace in ShB. There is a gap in healing output requirement in ShB dungeon, and I have no way to tell if a healer would be able handle it. If a healer pull one more pack, then I will start to pull wall to wall because I know (hope) they can do it.

On the other hand if dps pulls it I'll let the little turd die because they don't know a damn thing

As a healer watching a dps pull the named and the tank didn't move, I would have backed out behind the line and grabbed my popcorn. But I seriously doubt I would have vote kicked anybody unless they were being a complete "insert your favorite derogatory word here". Overall I find this funny.

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Originally Posted by OrdaDa

"I may lose my stacks" - BOTD is on a 30-second basis and can literally be refreshed before losing your eyes (but you need a good ping), Anatman exists, Umbral Soul is great, SMN doesn't have much stack-y things etc etc.

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I've still had a handful of times where I've had the tank move towards the boss as I'm ticking down to a few seconds, I refresh BotD, and then he doesn't pull... for more than another 17 seconds, at which point even ST couldn't save the stacks.

Its per 30, but only a 20 second duration, against which you need 4 GCDs before you can extend it (almost another 10 seconds) in single-target combat. It effectively gives you, therefore, just over 10 seconds.

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Originally Posted by Vulcann

...

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What checklist does "demands spouse, whom carries necessary resources, not interact with another person with the intent of depriving and humiliating said person" fill, I wonder?

DPS pulling mobs is fine as long as they bring it to the group and don't kite it around like a jackass. As for bosses the only problem is sometimes the boss will be off center, but that's such a non-issue 99% of the time anyways. Basically boils down to fragile egos.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

DPS pulling mobs is fine as long as they bring it to the group and don't kite it around like a jackass. As for bosses the only problem is sometimes the boss will be off center, but that's such a non-issue 99% of the time anyways. Basically boils down to fragile egos.

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I'll fully admit I don't exactly practice the "always on 100% of the time" I'm preaching here. Most times in the 4mans I'll just do my thing and leave even if I'm screaming at the monitor, no matter which M&M color I signed up as.

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Originally Posted by Awha

You told your wife eh? I guess you are a control freak in your personal life also.

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You jumped to the conclusion of calling someone a "control freak" with just few words without a context, just wow.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

DPS pulling mobs is fine as long as they bring it to the group and don't kite it around like a jackass. As for bosses the only problem is sometimes the boss will be off center, but that's such a non-issue 99% of the time anyways. Basically boils down to fragile egos.

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Exactly, kiting around mobs and not bringing them to me is the problem. Not DPS pulling themselves.

For me, DPS pulling mobs is my big pet peeve. If you want to pull mobs, make a tank and go do it to your heart's content. Otherwise, stop being a d***.

The other peeve I have is competing tanks in raids. Don't provoke off the tank that's already tanking. I had a WAR do this in a Susano the other night with me, I sat with Grit on for at least 15 seconds while others watched the cutscene. The last minute, he goes tank mode and starts provoking and pulling off me after I had already pulled and been tanking the boss. D*** moves, so we end up battling for agro (at first I thought DPS ripped it off me). He got mad at me parrying the sword, like that was "his job". I ended up just tanking the mob even after he tried provoking off me, for whatever reason, he didn't keep agro and I took it over while he tried belittling me. He also ended up on the blacklist.

DPS will end up on that same list when they pull mobs like they are doing me some kind of favor, or just being stupid - either way, if they pull it, they tank it.

If they want me to pull more, I can do that, no problem. Don't just go and do it though, it's really disrespectful. What's wrong with just typing it out that you want to pull more mobs? I usually ask when we start, I don't assume it. If the healer wants smaller pulls, that's what they get. If the DPS pulls more, that's on them and I will deal with it after they are dead. If I get kicked, I really could care less, that's on the group to wait for someone. I have plenty to do in game such as craft, fish, mine, pick flowers, whatever. I have all the time in the world to do something while I wait around if I am in the queue after your own ego booted me for not fixing your stupid mistakes.

I think this boils down to one thing, as others have said before: DPS arrogance.

Why? Because unless the dps is managing the tank's cooldowns and knows the tank's gear and the healer's gear, him pulling other mobs is basically gambling. I've had times when I'm tanking with a healer that likes to dps more than heal; times when I pulled more and I didn't have my cds up and the healer couldn't handle it; times when I pulled a lot but my gear was undertuned for the content... these all lead to wipes and experience for the tank. And yes, knowing your cooldowns and seeing how the healer plays, it is the job of the tank to set the pace and to lead. Unless the DPS has all of this knowledge, it isn't his job to do anything other than dps.

However, if the DPS is discontent with the pace, he could always respectfully ask the party to go quicker, whats the problem with having communication? Moreover, if the healer wants to pull more, then it falls to him to keep the party alive even if the tank is out of cds, so good luck to to the healer. I'm bothered by DPS pulls, not really healer pulls because then it's just a matter of the healer taking responsability for the outcome.

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Originally Posted by Nyoraii

I think this boils down to one thing, as others have said before: DPS arrogance.

Why? Because unless the dps is managing the tank's cooldowns and knows the tank's gear and the healer's gear, him pulling other mobs is basically gambling. I've had times when I'm tanking with a healer that likes to dps more than heal; times when I pulled more and I didn't have my cds up and the healer couldn't handle it; times when I pulled a lot but my gear was undertuned for the content... these all lead to wipes and experience for the tank. And yes, knowing your cooldowns and seeing how the healer plays, it is the job of the tank to set the pace and to lead. Unless the DPS has all of this knowledge, it isn't his job to do anything other than dps.

However, if the DPS is discontent with the pace, he could always respectfully ask the party to go quicker, whats the problem with having communication? Moreover, if the healer wants to pull more, then if falls to him to keep the party alive even if I'm out of cds, so good luck to him. I'm bothered by DPS pulls, not really healer pulls because then it's just a matter of the healer taking responsability for the outcome.

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i too have a time trigger mili second layout of my tank cds when i pulling the dungeon boss!

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Originally Posted by Kaitoo

i too have a time trigger mili second layout of my tank cds when i pulling the dungeon boss!

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Gratz! Want some soy milk with that sarcasm? Lmao.

That post was about the dps pulling in general, not only boss pulls, but I guess your reading comprehension skills are too low to pick up on that.

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Originally Posted by Nyoraii

I think this boils down to one thing, as others have said before: DPS arrogance.

Why? Because unless the dps is managing the tank's cooldowns and knows the tank's gear and the healer's gear.

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Except, I do examine gear at the start of the dungeon, and do track my party's cooldowns, including remembering my tank's CD scheduling and my healer's oGCD habits. The habit probably comes, from, idk, having one healer main character and another tank main character?

Just because someone swaps over to a different job toolkit doesn't mean they suddenly lose the player skillsets they had before. I better know how to tank because I also dps and heal. I better know how to heal because I also tank and can track when DPS AoE burst will be ready and when focus targeting in a 3-4 mob situation will better suit mine and my tank's needs. And I better know how to DPS because I know tank CD and pull habits, and which mob special attacks are worth stunning for positioning or mitigation. If all goes well, minimal attention is required, because each role allows the others to perform in its optimal range.

But, competent tanking includes being able to gauge what your party is capable of and meeting its maxima as to allow that better and far more straightforward performance. It wouldn't just be a matter of miscommunication if we could easily full-pull but I, the tank, won't. It'd be a failing on my part. It'd be me not properly performing my role. That's why you have DPS a little peeved when they have to communicate a tank's job to them, just as a tank would be peeved when a DPS is clearly not rotating correctly or blows CDs at the end of one small trash pack right before another full pull. If it's not a job the tank is willing to take on, then why should they feel insulted when a DPS does?

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Originally Posted by Nyoraii

I think this boils down to one thing, as others have said before: DPS arrogance.

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Nah, the problem here is clearly tank arrogance and entitlement. And I'm saying this as a tank, not a dps.

Many tanks in this thread are talking about how they take offense or feel disrespected when dps/healers do something other than the way they, as tanks, think dps/healers should. OP and many others are talking about how when that happens, they literally stop doing their job (that is, functioning as tanks). Comments supporting or relishing in that sort of behavior show that someone is either egocentric or that they lack of self-awareness. As others have pointed out, a tank that decides to stop tanking when they don't get there way is just as unacceptable and petty as a healer who stops healing or a dps who stops attacking. It's even more true now, since tanks have so much enmity generation (as well as 'unlimited' TP) that there is almost no excuse to NOT have aggro on everything within a gcd or two.

People running ahead of tanks and pulling things is generally suboptimal, yes. But that doesn't mean tanks should throw a tantrum and refuse to do their job just because it happens. Imagine if a dps decides to just not dps if a tank pulls a few seconds too early/late and ruins their opener/cooldown timing? Imagine if a healer decides to just not heal if a tank goes a bit too slow and lets a shield fall off. Neither is acceptable, right? We can all agree that those people are kind of being divas unless they were trying for some 1% enrage push or speedrun, right? Well the situations I just described, where tanks inconvenience dps and healers, both happen all the time. People might grumble privately a bit, but you rarely, rarely see the kind of attitude/stance that many tanks in this thread are taking towards minor inconveniences in casual content.

As people, yes everyone has a right to feel unhappy about things that upset them. But as players in a multiplayer game, how you feel is not the only thing that matters. To insist that other players need to cater to your feelings is entitlement at its finest. Playing a tank doesn't make you special. It doesn't make you king. You don't deserve extra respect for it. To think that it does is arrogance.

Tanks need to do their job just like everyone else is expected to. If you do it well, then maybe, just maybe, you'll earn others' respect.

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Originally Posted by Machka

People running ahead of tanks and pulling things is generally suboptimal, yes. But that doesn't mean tanks should throw a tantrum and refuse to do their job just because it happens.

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I agree with this. Since it's suboptimal, the dps in question should be simply kicked instead after the trash pack in order not to encourage purposely playing badly in a team activity.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Except, I do examine gear at the start of the dungeon, and do track my party's cooldowns, including remembering my tank's CD scheduling and my healer's oGCD habits. The habit probably comes, from, idk, having one healer main character and another tank main character?

Just because someone swaps over to a different job toolkit doesn't mean they suddenly lose the player skillsets they had before. I better know how to tank because I also dps and heal. I better know how to heal because I also tank and can track when DPS AoE burst will be ready and when focus targeting in a 3-4 mob situation will better suit mine and my tank's needs. And I better know how to DPS because I know tank CD and pull habits, and which mob special attacks are worth stunning for positioning or mitigation. If all goes well, minimal attention is required, because each role allows the others to perform in its optimal range.

But, competent tanking includes being able to gauge what your party is capable of and meeting its maxima as to allow that better and far more straightforward performance. It wouldn't just be a matter of miscommunication if we could easily full-pull but I, the tank, won't. It'd be a failing on my part. It'd be me not properly performing my role. That's why you have DPS a little peeved when they have to communicate a tank's job to them, just as a tank would be peeved when a DPS is clearly not rotating correctly or blows CDs at the end of one small trash pack right before another full pull. If it's not a job the tank is willing to take on, then why should they feel insulted when a DPS does?

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If you really do what you're saying you do, which I kinda doubt, why not just speak to the party? If I see a dps underperforming, not using AoEs, I wouldn't just reduce my pulls to cater to him, I'd be frank and ask him why he isn't using AoEs, it's that simple. The problem of not communicating is that you risk being misinterpreted. We're only humans, after all.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

I agree with this. Since it's suboptimal, the dps in question should be simply kicked instead after the trash pack in order not to encourage purposely playing badly in a team activity.

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Same for tanks who can't handle mass pulls I take it?