Please stop making Eureka

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

You realize this is all content thats been in development for months already and they aren't just going to not release it.

It is being done by people. You may not like it, but that doesnt mean other people don't.

Might as well get rid of Ultimate, glamours, the quicksands, RP tags, and the like too.

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Well...there are about 12 people who like it!

Pagos is a very strong gate. Perhaps one of the worst gates in the game in terms of proceeding in content.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

They threw every 4.45 items in the only 4.45 content. When was the last time a new item came from an old content ?

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Patch 4.35, actually. New recipes were added for crafters, including all the otter stuff. They also didn't used to put RNG as insanely low as they did in Pagos. The Shiver emote has an estimated .2% drop rate. This is lower than even the EX Primal mounts. Granted, it seems they moved away from that in Pyros.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Yes, I loved that step for that single reason. You still had Myth Books, the Ink for Novus, Sacred water for the Zodiac, Mahatmas for Zeta...and the atrocious 24000 tomestones for the Umbrites...that I did three times. And slowly or not, tome farming is still doing the same thing over and over for days, especially since it the de facto way of gearing since the very beginning of 2.0. Give me Eureka as the main source of gear for 5 years straight it would also bore me eventually.

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For simple math, let's round each dungeon to 100 tomes per run and each NM to 5 crystals. This equates to approximately 240 dungeons and 100 NMs. What exactly is the difference here except the former allows for multiple options in terms of different dungeons, trails, raids, beast tribes and an assortment of other activities whereas the latter isolates you to a single location with a narrow objective? NMs in Pagos also take substantially longer to spawn than most dungeons. Spawning Brothers last night, I could easily have ran through The Burn possibly three times. Regardless, you've simply exchanged one token type (tomestomes) for another (crystals). And you aren't grinding current tomes since if we had the old relic steps, you'll simply accumulate those along the way.

What irks people isn't necessarily Eureka itself but the one dimensional aspect of its progression. If you dislike this content for whatever reason, you simply don't have a relic to work on for Stormblood. And due to how its synced down, you cannot even go back later and mow through everything like you can if you liked the Genji set for whatever reason. I get it. You despise everything there is to do with tomestones, but they allow options. They also give us a reason to actually look at old content again. I literally have no reason to even touch 50/60 roulette. In fact, I hardly do roulettes these days because they serve no purpose. Capping current tomes is easier than ever.

Nevertheless, if people had an option; say you could take your the relic outside Eureka and do light farming through dungeons and/or tomes, you'd hear a lot less complaints. Now you have Eureka and people who dislike it have roulettes. Everybody wins.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Patch 4.35, actually. New recipes were added for crafters, including all the otter stuff.

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For crafters, new recipe is new content.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

For simple math, let's round each dungeon to 100 tomes per run and each NM to 5 crystals. This equates to approximately 240 dungeons and 100 NMs. What exactly is the difference here except the former allows for multiple options in terms of different dungeons, trails, raids, beast tribes and an assortment of other activities whereas the latter isolates you to a single location with a narrow objective?

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The difference is that the very context of Eureka makes NM different than dungeon. Like I said on another topic, in Eureka, you can enter from solo to a full group and freely change job or group composition depending on needs, and there's a bit of randomness in how you will roam in the zones depending on the NM that pops. You also don't necessarily partake in Eureka for the same purpose, depending of what reward you seek (Train, light farm, challenge log or the, saddly, few quests), and mostly, there is a way higher sense of community in Eureka, with people more willing to talk and help each other. Another thing is that, again, you already run these dungeons for something else. I'd take 240 dungeons and 100 NM over 400 dungeons, especially since, from 2.0, I've probably done several hundred dungeons already.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

And due to how its synced down, you cannot even go back later and mow through everything like you can if you liked the Genji set for whatever reason.

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That's too early to really say that. Past relics have been nerfed to the ground so they were easily doable for very late people. Chances are Eureka will follow the same treatment come 5.0. Like I said, if you remove the elvl/ilvl sync and make NM like Hunt Marks, you'll be able to solo any weapon.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Nevertheless, if people had an option; say you could take your the relic outside Eureka and do light farming through dungeons and/or tomes, you'd hear a lot less complaints. Now you have Eureka and people who dislike it have roulettes.

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Yet again, Relic is only one weapon option. So you should have people complaining that other weapons are also locked to a single content. The difference is that people still assume that relic is "for everyone", which is really not that accurate.

umm k. I mean since you dont like it I'll tell everyone else its just not gonna happen anymore.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

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Oh its so different ?

You kill trash then you can do the boss. Do it three time GG you win tomestone.

You kill trash then the NM pop. Do it GG you win crystals.

You can exchange xxx tomestone to get your token, with x token you have your weapon.

You can exchange your crystal and the token from "insert fate name" token or echange crystal for the NM token and you get your weapon.

What change exactly ?

Light farm ? Yeah no, you go to the trash of your choise and kill the same trash over and over again or participate in the 8 same fate over and over. While before you choose the boss and kill it over and over so much difference...

Oh you can do anything else ? Yeah no Crystal only drop on fate, so do the NM token, yeah sure you can choose the mob you'll chain... Could be a trainning dummie and get the same result.

Tomestone ? Dungeon, raid of every shade from the 24 to the 8 man and from savage, tribal quest and even in Eureka itself. You could do a ARR or a HW style relic while still doing Eureka, you could do it while going in your favorite Eureka instance while chasing your chilling emote, T-rex mount, demon horn or whatever.

The decorum change ? Eureka the instance is the same for all the current step, don't get me wrong those place are gorgeous but don't make me believe seeing those six same panorama for weeks are so different than 10+ instances + tribal quest.

Relic is obtainable by everyone for the only cost of time, get over it you're embrassing yourself. A chimp could play in Eureka you won't see a difference.

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Originally Posted by Nariel

Eureka the instance is the same for all the current step

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It's not really because the way you deal with Eureka is very different depending on your level and your experience with it. You basically go from scaredy cat afraid of mobs looking at you to powerhouse that roam the map without any issue, being able to help people everywhere. Or from player lambda, being quiet and following the train, to Eureka veteran, providing advice or even leading the train. The community aspect is a very important part of Eureka, you can't sum it up with a simple "killing mobs for hours".

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Originally Posted by Nariel

Relic is obtainable by everyone for the only cost of time, get over it you're embrassing yourself.

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In an MMO, "time" is a real commitment that not everyone have.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

They threw every 4.45 items in the only 4.45 content. When was the last time a new item came from an old content ?

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All the time. They are always putting new things in the Gold Saucer, PvP, and hunts even when they didn't add or change anything in that content.

Although the Gold Saucer is the only one of those I like seeing new items added to.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

For crafters, new recipe is new content.

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And they added nothing this patch cycle. Furthermore, those new recipes typically are incredibly easy crafts or use easily obtainable crafts, thus you can purchase them from the market board for cheap. That hasn't been the case with Eureka since Anemos. We'll see how common everything is for Pyros, but Pagos purposely went in the opposite direction purely to try and drive people into it not unlike PvP.

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The difference is that the very context of Eureka makes NM different than dungeon. Like I said on another topic, in Eureka, you can enter from solo to a full group and freely change job or group composition depending on needs, and there's a bit of randomness in how you will roam in the zones depending on the NM that pops. You also don't necessarily partake in Eureka for the same purpose, depending of what reward you seek (Train, light farm, challenge log or the, saddly, few quests), and mostly, there is a way higher sense of community in Eureka, with people more willing to talk and help each other. Another thing is that, again, you already run these dungeons for something else. I'd take 240 dungeons and 100 NM over 400 dungeons, especially since, from 2.0, I've probably done several hundred dungeons already.

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This is entirely subjective. You find it better yet that certainly hasn't been the online opinion—which has been near universally negative. Even from people who were alright with Anemos utterly despised Pagos. Regardless, this argument doesn't make much sense. While you may not be able to change jobs in dungeons themselves, they're substantially shorter. So you can easily switch every other run. In fact, I rotate jobs frequently in all content I do. That isn't unique to Eureka. It's actually made more tedious in Pagos due to the poor map design and Aetherryte levels. I wanted to switch to SCH from WAR. Well, I have to spent 5-10mins catching up with the train again. As for partaking multiple activities... how does Light farming, challenge log or train differ? They all revolve around you killing the same mobs endlessly. We spent a good 30mins at least killing Minotaurs by the hundreds. Light farming works precisely the same. Crystal farming? You're still killing hundreds of things to spawn a NM. Challenge log? Kill the same mobs. Everything revolves around the same activity with little to no variation. Dungeons may not be overly exciting but bosses do have mechanics. And trails and raids are significantly different.

No matter how much you want to argue it. There is no choice in Eureka, especially Pagos. You will be killing thousands upon thousands of trash mobs whether you want to spawn NMs, farm light or do your challenge log. They all revolve around killing brain dead mobs with zero mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

That's too early to really say that. Past relics have been nerfed to the ground so they were easily doable for very late people. Chances are Eureka will follow the same treatment come 5.0. Like I said, if you remove the elvl/ilvl sync and make NM like Hunt Marks, you'll be able to solo any weapon.

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I can farm Neo Exdeath right now. He is an absolute pushover at i400. Even God Kefka will fall over to a semi-competent group as they approach i400. With past relics even before the nerfs, you could catch up at a fairly reasonable pace because there was never anything gated. Did you start the Unidentifiable Step late? Whatever. Just start farming tomes and you'll be set. Eureka, on the other hand, gets ever more arduous because less and less people populate the older zones. Before people on the Umibrite step were still being funneled back to dungeons, thus anyone behind wasn't impacted. And FATEs are solo-able by design. You'll struggle immensely to solo any NMs in even Anemos, let alone Pagos. So you either hope the instance fills or wait until near the end of 4.x, or 5.0 and hope they make it solo-able. That is bad design.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Yet again, Relic is only one weapon option. So you should have people complaining that other weapons are also locked to a single content. The difference is that people still assume that relic is "for everyone", which is really not that accurate.

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Even taken a face value. If a large portion of the playerbase assumes the relic is for a general audience, it will be incredibly foolish for the developers to say, "well, no. You're wrong." All that accomplishes is pissing off a larger portion of your audience. Nevertheless, the relic has been for the general audience. Not everyone but for a far larger crowd than Eureka. The intent behind it is playing the game normally will net you a powerful weapon and sense of progression. Eureka isn't playing the game normally but a niche activity. A perfect litmus test would be taking any other armor or weapon set and put them in Eureka instead of the relic. Does Eureka stand up or fall over? Any other weapon and Eureka gets ignored. It's the popularity of the relic that attracts people to it. How do I know this? Diadem. Even with gear competitive to Gordias, Diadem died almost instantly.

And you know Eureka wouldn't survive without the relic otherwise you wouldn't have dodged what I said. Let us take the Relic outside Eureka and progress it through other means if people so choose. If you prefer mob farming and NMs. Go and enjoy Eureka. If you'd rather do trails for light instead, by all means. Now everyone has a choice on how they want to progress. But you're afraid this would kill the content you prefer, which speaks volumes of its stability.

I do wonder if the devs ever thought of Eureka moving forward...

Because I don't know if you'll be able to solo it after it's outdated, unless it's insanely nerfed to the ground. It's just a reskinned old relic grind but with less options as others have pointed out. They should've known players usually doesn't like to be funneled into 1 thing nowadays. You could get away with it a few decades ago, but nowadays things are a bit different and from what I've seen Yoshi say he does understand this, so wth?

It seems the latest trend if having the game companies disappoint their players. I'm off to see if Warframe follows suit with the patch they've dropped today.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

This is entirely subjective.

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Better is subjective, different is not. The fact that I find it more fun mainly because it's different is indeed only my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

They all revolve around you killing the same mobs endlessly.

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In the end, everything could be summed up as killing lots of trash mobs then a boss, be it a dungeon, a quest, FATEs, etc...But soloing or low-manning the challenge log does not give the same vibe or ask for the same requirement as chaining high level monsters on one spot in a full group with dedicated tanks and healers, or roaming around the whole map with the train.

Imagine if a new dungeon is created where instead or running around killing packs of trash and three bosses, you had to keep a position safe from approaching waves of trash and bosses. Or if you had to protect an NPC from waves of mobs and three bosses. Or, as I would really liked The Burn to be, an open zone where you would kill the three bosses and their trash in any order you want, until you open the last part for a final fourth boss. Would it really make you feel the same as the usual "straight line dungeon with three circles rooms" ?

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Eureka, on the other hand, gets ever more arduous because less and less people populate the older zones.

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For me, it's sill too soon to judge. It's still very easy to end in a full instance for Anemos or for Pagos. I even have taken a full 2 month break just after the release of Pagos and had no issue doing my full Pagos weapon leisurely in a little more than two weeks. From what I've heard, Eureka scales with the number of players, with people reporting that lots of NM are easily soloable when the zone is near empty. Considering that every NM drops XP/Crystal/Light and that you don't need to kill Pazuzu or Louhi anymore, I think it's really doable. Of course, you won't be able to solo if lots of people are in the zone, but, you can simply join them then since chances are they are in a train.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

If a large portion of the playerbase assumes the relic is for a general audience, it will be incredibly foolish for the developers to say, "well, no. You're wrong."

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Not really. If you have numbers as proof that only a small part of the playerbase actually did the previous relics, it would be useless to streamline the next relic for the whole playerbase, especially when you want to try something a little different. If past relics ended as a niche (No claim since I don't have numbers, but they do), making this one a niche for the new systems you want to experiment is not that far fetched.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Not everyone but for a far larger crowd than Eureka.

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Problem is, we don't know the size of the crowd, neither for Zodiac/Anima ownership of for Eureka participation. Officialy, Anemos was a "success", so at least, it matched the size of the playerbase they intended. They didn't comment on Pagos, wether good or bad, and it's still a long way to see if Pyros and the last one will be successful or not.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

How do I know this? Diadem. Even with gear competitive to Gordias, Diadem died almost instantly.

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There is a big difference between Diadem and Eureka. Random rewards. In Diadem, you never knew what item you'd get and what stats and appearance it would have, especially since you could end with items you might not even use. In Eureka (until now, at least), you always knew exactly what the weapon/armor would be, even if the time it would take to obtain it varies, and you always make progress to that goal. The randomized stats for Pyros may change that a bit, depending on how harsh it is.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

And you know Eureka wouldn't survive without the relic otherwise you wouldn't have dodged what I said.

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No, I didn't "dodge" the question because I still think it's a silly question. Let's suppose that every item from any content is buyable with tomestones. You have two options : If it's buyable with capped tomestones, people would still do the dedicated content so that they can bypass the weekly restriction. If it's buyable with uncapped tomestones, yes, the content would be dead...but it's true for every content. If EX Primal weapons and mounts were buyable with uncapped tomestones, they would die after everyone get their first clear. If Savage gear, minions and mounts were buyable with tomestones, you'd only see the small fraction of the playerbase interesting in fflogs competition in there, so a fraction of a fraction of the playerbase. If Ivalice gear was buyable with tomestones, people would only get their first clear too. People will mostly chose the path of least resistance (Unless personal gripe like I have with tomestones), and tome farming is the universal easiest way of obtaining things.

Or, one solution would be to make the items really expensive, to the point that the average tome-to-crystal/hour ratio is slower that the average crystal/hour ratio in Eureka. At that point, you'd have people acting the same as me, avoiding an activity because they hate it, even if it's the most efficient way of doing the relic. But I think most people that want the relic would still run Eureka simply to do it faster, thus keeping it alive.

EDIT : Ok, let's do this.

• Protean Crystal : 30 Tomestones of Mendacity
• Anemos Crystal : 100 Tomestones of Mendacity
• Pagos Crystal : 150 Tomestones of Mendacity
• Frozen Crystal : 500 Tomestones of Mendacity
• Pazuzu feather added to Gift of the Archmagus
• Louhi Ice obtainable from a lvl 60 equivalent of Gift of the Archmagus

Total cost of a full set (Anemos Armor + Pagos weapon) for one job : between 210500 (+five weeks) and 227000 Tomestones of Mendacity.
Would you do that relic ?

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

EDIT : Ok, let's do this.

• Protean Crystal : 30 Tomestones of Mendacity
• Anemos Crystal : 100 Tomestones of Mendacity
• Pagos Crystal : 150 Tomestones of Mendacity
• Frozen Crystal : 500 Tomestones of Mendacity
• Pazuzu feather added to Gift of the Archmagus
• Louhi Ice obtainable from a lvl 60 equivalent of Gift of the Archmagus

Total cost of a full set (Anemos Armor + Pagos weapon) for one job : between 210500 (+five weeks) and 227000 Tomestones of Mendacity.
Would you do that relic ?

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I would.

I'm sorry but i'm also going to nitpick on something. "People will always chose the path of least resistance (Unless personal gripe like I have with tomestones)..."
If you say something happens always and then list yourself as an exception then it's not always.

For instance. I really like doing the 24 man raids even thought I don't need anything from it. I run Ridorana even past getting the weekly coin because I find it fun

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Originally Posted by Schan

I would.

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That's fine then, because, at such a hugh amount of tomestones, I don't think Eureka would really be threatened of desertion since it would still be a lot faster to build your relic within. Keep in mind that it's only for a Pagos weapon, so you could end with double that amount total if you want the final Eureka weapon.

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Originally Posted by Schan

I'm sorry but i'm also going to nitpick on something.

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Fixed :p

Eureka, and with this I mean all 3 of them, are the worst FFXIV content ever.
Even Diadem was better lol.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

EDIT : Ok, let's do this.

• Protean Crystal : 30 Tomestones of Mendacity
• Anemos Crystal : 100 Tomestones of Mendacity
• Pagos Crystal : 150 Tomestones of Mendacity
• Frozen Crystal : 500 Tomestones of Mendacity
• Pazuzu feather added to Gift of the Archmagus
• Louhi Ice obtainable from a lvl 60 equivalent of Gift of the Archmagus

Total cost of a full set (Anemos Armor + Pagos weapon) for one job : between 210500 (+five weeks) and 227000 Tomestones of Mendacity.
Would you do that relic ?

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Have you ever heard of balance ? Cause yeah pull big number out of your ass doesn't make them "what the devs would do" fact.

from memory it would be divided by ten at least.

locked chest are full of trash, everything is locked behing rabbit (yay rng ! haven't gotten a single rabbit in more than 2 hours of farming these fate)

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

There is a big difference between Diadem and Eureka. Random rewards. In Diadem, you never knew what item you'd get and what stats and appearance it would have, especially since you could end with items you might not even use. In Eureka (until now, at least), you always knew exactly what the weapon/armor would be, even if the time it would take to obtain it varies, and you always make progress to that goal. The randomized stats for Pyros may change that a bit, depending on how harsh it is.

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There is also another big factor: Greed only!

There was absolutely no point in even trying to grind for a gearpiece with nice stats, because everyone else in the party would also roll for it, just to sell it for some tokens to the vendor.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

EDIT : Ok, let's do this.

• Protean Crystal : 30 Tomestones of Mendacity
• Anemos Crystal : 100 Tomestones of Mendacity
• Pagos Crystal : 150 Tomestones of Mendacity
• Frozen Crystal : 500 Tomestones of Mendacity
• Pazuzu feather added to Gift of the Archmagus
• Louhi Ice obtainable from a lvl 60 equivalent of Gift of the Archmagus

Total cost of a full set (Anemos Armor + Pagos weapon) for one job : between 210500 (+five weeks) and 227000 Tomestones of Mendacity.
Would you do that relic ?

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That's 757 hours of nonstop dungeon grinding. Even with 8 hours grinding every day, you will not finish the weapon within 3 months. So no, I would not do this. But in general I prefer tomestone grinding over Eureka, even when that means it takes longer to finish the weapon. But your numbers aren't reasonable.

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Originally Posted by Nariel

Have you ever heard of balance ? Cause yeah pull big number out of your ass doesn't make them "what the devs would do" fact.
from memory it would be divided by ten at least.

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The Umbrite step alone cost 24000 tomestones. One step of one item. You're way below the cost of a 6 step weapon and 5 pieces of armor each with 3 steps.

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Originally Posted by Tint

That's 757 hours of nonstop dungeon grinding. Even with 8 hours grinding every day, you will not finish the weapon within 3 months. So no, I would not do this. But in general I prefer tomestone grinding over Eureka, even when that means it takes longer to finish the weapon. But your numbers aren't reasonable.

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Ok, so at half the cost, you would only need 378 hours of dungeons, I guess. So, 1.5 months of 8h/day grinding for the full set up to Pagos at 86k tomestones (57250 for the weapon alone). Fun fact, the whole Zodiac cost 23800 tomestones-of-whatever-was-uncapped-at-the-time, the whole Anima was (at worst) 67000 tomestones-of-whatever-was-uncapped-at-the-time, so almost three times the cost. With the same inflation, a full Eureka weapon (only the weapon) would end at 190k tomestones.

The main difference is that tome cost was, most of the time, the intended way to buy the items for the Zodiac and the Anima, and not an "alternate but slower way". This time, the primary way should still be Eureka, so the tome cost can't be so cheap that it's faster.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

In the end, everything could be summed up as killing lots of trash mobs then a boss, be it a dungeon, a quest, FATEs, etc...But soloing or low-manning the challenge log does not give the same vibe or ask for the same requirement as chaining high level monsters on one spot in a full group with dedicated tanks and healers, or roaming around the whole map with the train.

Imagine if a new dungeon is created where instead or running around killing packs of trash and three bosses, you had to keep a position safe from approaching waves of trash and bosses. Or if you had to protect an NPC from waves of mobs and three bosses. Or, as I would really liked The Burn to be, an open zone where you would kill the three bosses and their trash in any order you want, until you open the last part for a final fourth boss. Would it really make you feel the same as the usual "straight line dungeon with three circles rooms" ?

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You begin a consistent trend here, which is making comparisons that are not equal. Releasing what is essential a Siege mode dungeon has a far different experience than anything the game currently offers. In that context, the mobs come to you and you're forced to defend against possible waves or do other objectives. Eureka is not this nor does it remotely compare. No matter how you approach it, you simply kill hundreds of mobs endlessly. It does nothing different. Saying the challenge log gives a different vibe is, again, subjective, and a bit silly. It's literally "kill 30-60 of this elemental type". That isn't variety, it's simply masking the same activity behind something else. If you simply try to spawn a NM, you'll inevitably complete the challenge log without even noticing.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

For me, it's sill too soon to judge. It's still very easy to end in a full instance for Anemos or for Pagos. I even have taken a full 2 month break just after the release of Pagos and had no issue doing my full Pagos weapon leisurely in a little more than two weeks. From what I've heard, Eureka scales with the number of players, with people reporting that lots of NM are easily soloable when the zone is near empty. Considering that every NM drops XP/Crystal/Light and that you don't need to kill Pazuzu or Louhi anymore, I think it's really doable. Of course, you won't be able to solo if lots of people are in the zone, but, you can simply join them then since chances are they are in a train.

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In Anemos, yes. You can solo some NMs with a low enough instances. This isn't the case in Pagos. Regardless, the grind is so immense, you'll be there for ages. Will this be nerfed come 5.0? Yes. But previous relic steps didn't require a nerf bat for players to catch up. That is the complaint many people have. If you're starting the relic late, it's an increase grind right now and you either deal with it or wait until the expansion's conclusion to maybe have a sensible alternative. There is no way around that being poorly thought out.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Not really. If you have numbers as proof that only a small part of the playerbase actually did the previous relics, it would be useless to streamline the next relic for the whole playerbase, especially when you want to try something a little different. If past relics ended as a niche (No claim since I don't have numbers, but they do), making this one a niche for the new systems you want to experiment is not that far fetched.

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Lots of "ifs." This assumes only a small portion of the players did relics. Lets put that aside though. If we assume Eureka and the relic were always intended for a niche audience—a Savage equivalent or thereabouts. What content is there for the general audience; the overwhelming majority? Unless you like virtually every activity this game offers, you'll be finished in under a month. Eureka can't be considered niche content because there just isn't enough for the general playerbase to do otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

There is a big difference between Diadem and Eureka. Random rewards. In Diadem, you never knew what item you'd get and what stats and appearance it would have, especially since you could end with items you might not even use. In Eureka (until now, at least), you always knew exactly what the weapon/armor would be, even if the time it would take to obtain it varies, and you always make progress to that goal. The randomized stats for Pyros may change that a bit, depending on how harsh it is.

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You missed my point. Put the relic in Diadem, even with randomization akin to what Pyros has now, and I guarantee it doesn't die within the first week. Put simply, the relic is what keeps Eureka somewhat populated. Any other weapon set and I suspect those population numbers dwindle even if said weapons were guaranteed; no random rewards. I hardly think people will care about say... the i380 Armor sets they threw in there.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

No, I didn't "dodge" the question because I still think it's a silly question. Let's suppose that every item from any content is buyable with tomestones. You have two options : If it's buyable with capped tomestones, people would still do the dedicated content so that they can bypass the weekly restriction. If it's buyable with uncapped tomestones, yes, the content would be dead...but it's true for every content. If EX Primal weapons and mounts were buyable with uncapped tomestones, they would die after everyone get their first clear. If Savage gear, minions and mounts were buyable with tomestones, you'd only see the small fraction of the playerbase interesting in fflogs competition in there, so a fraction of a fraction of the playerbase. If Ivalice gear was buyable with tomestones, people would only get their first clear too. People will mostly chose the path of least resistance (Unless personal gripe like I have with tomestones), and tome farming is the universal easiest way of obtaining things.

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A silly "question" yet one you built a Strawman around. First and foremost, I said nothing about tomestones and used light grinding as an example. Regardless, every single example you provided has no need for a tomestone solution because there either isn't an arduous grind behind it or it already has a solution to remedy said grind. 10 EX Primal tokens guarantees you a weapon and the mount can be obtained with 99 should you elect not to grind further. The drop rate also increases significantly in subsequent patches. Savage has books to combat its RNG aspect, but also rewards the best gear currently obtainable. The minion/mount are guaranteed drops that simply require a re-clear to obtain. And even if you were unlucky enough to lose in every single pug clear you do, Savage eventually gets unlocked, making it possible to farm everything.

Everything has an alternative here... except Eureka. So this tomestone example falls apart before we even touch the Achilles' heel. Both the Zodaic and Anima relics had an alternative method of progression; multiple, in fact. You keep trying to pile on things like the challenge as some unique deviation when it literally revolves around the same premise—so much so you'll often complete it while spawning NMs because killing trash mobs is the only option in Eureka. Allowing people to tomestone or light farm outside Eureka is simply bringing back the previous options taken away.

As for your tomestone calculations. People have already pointed out they are absurd. Since we already know Pagos requires 500 tokens, 50 Mendacity—a third of what you suggested—necessitates 25,000 tomes, which roughly puts it in line with the Umbrite step. Now you have options! People who abhor tomestone grinds, like yourself, can happily farm NMs while people who prefer it or are indifferent can do dungeons, trials or whatever. This is the crux of almost every complaint: a lack of options. Eureka forces a specific style of gameplay onto people with no deviation. Change that and the complaints will die down.

Ya know its threads like this that never end up being really looked at by the devs. Doesnt really provide feedback, doesnt really provide ways to improve the content. Doesnt provide alternatives. This is all one big bitchfest with people complaining and getting nowhere without actual merit or reasoning.

You could instead ask for ways to improve Eureka, make suggestions for it in the next iteneration but no, you just want to scrap it all together. Basically asking " Please never try anything new " I mean thats basically it when you come down to it. An entire thread just like all the others filled with emotional angst over a piece of content thats getting on your nerves and youi just cant accept that. Without even looking back as to why and how it came about in the first place.

Why should they every try anything new and interesting ever again. Cant say " Please include this next time" "Please include a way for me to do this" No just flat out DELETE. Because "If i dont enjoy it NO ONE should'

This is the whole reason this entire forum has become ONE big JOKE to everyone else. Your upset, you hate it, it sucks thats ALL that matters to all of you.

I hope you enjoy yourselves next time if were back grinding 500 dungeons 1000000 tomes running dungeons from 1 to 70 with RNG drops JUST because you couldnt come up with anything remotely useful or constructive to say. SO Please by all means PLEASE enjoy! and may the never ever try anything remotely unique or intersting again because it is JUST UNACCEPTABLE to you.

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Originally Posted by HiroesX81

Ya know its threads like this that never end up being really looked at by the devs. Doesnt really provide feedback, doesnt really provide ways to improve the content. Doesnt provide alternatives. This is all one big bitchfest with people complaining and getting nowhere without actual merit or reasoning.

You could instead ask for ways to improve Eureka, make suggestions for it in the next iteneration but no, you just want to scrap it all together. Basically asking " Please never try anything new " I mean thats basically it when you come down to it. An entire thread just like all the others filled with emotional angst over a piece of content thats getting on your nerves and youi just cant accept that. Without even looking back as to why and how it came about in the first place.

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There has been more than one thread for each Eureka expansion that say exactly this: "How I would fix [eureka zone]." There have been numerous threads around the big topics: bringing back NM trains, upping quest xp, doing something to make the bunny fate worthwhile, level sync, & daily quests to name a few.

Minus a few quick fixes, most things were ignored or implemented at a minor level, and the things that would overwhelmingly answer a majority of our complaints - level sync and daily quests - were ignored. On top of that, a lot of people see absolutely no worth in any part of Eureka - for us, "fixing" it would be to remove it altogether/divorce the relic from it. And the latter would actually benefit the people who do enjoy Eureka, since it would leave them with their XI style battles and their XI minions and glamours.

So, yeah. We've tried giving suggestions. We've made whole threads based around those suggestions. Overall, most of them get ignored. I think we have the right to be a little salty.

Eureka is terrible and they DEFINITELY should not repeat the mistake in the next expansion, sadly it wont stop until then. I prefer the ARR or HW relic grinds to Eureka that's how bad it is. At least those are possible to do once the expansion is over, eureka wont be.

First off, I dislike Eureka; mainly Pagos because of how terrible everything about that zone was, but overall Eureka misses the mark on the type of content that players are looking for. So, that said, you know what my opinion is on Eureka as a whole.

However, right now, the dev team is likely done with most of major components of everything else we'll be seeing with this expansion. They likely started developing Eureka even before Stormblood released. So, at this point in the expansion's lifecycle, they're likely already done with the major work on Eureka as a whole. That just leaves minor tweeks. They're not going to completely redevelop a piece of content as large as this because of backlash over it as they probably have a development schedule they are sticking to in terms of what to release when.

The only thing that threads like these accomplish is showing the devs what not to do in the future, which is good, but this isn't going to stop the last leg of Eureka from being released with whatever the design choices they've made are. That's coming down the pipeline whether or not the community wants it.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Releasing what is essential a Siege mode dungeon has a far different experience than anything the game currently offers.

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At the core, it's still "killing trash mobs and bosses". That's exactly why I said context matters.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Saying the challenge log gives a different vibe is, again, subjective, and a bit silly

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No, it's not...doing the challenge doesn't require the same setup as chaining 5+lvl monsters, that's a totally different organisation.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

What content is there for the general audience; the overwhelming majority?

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Roulette with capped tome gear, normal raid, 24-man raid. And since all of this has a weekly restriction, they last more than a month. And they offer equal or better reward than Eureka...

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Put the relic in Diadem, even with randomization akin to what Pyros has now, and I guarantee it doesn't die within the first week.

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Well, judging from several threads about Eureka, "lots" of people seem to have given up on the relic because of Eureka. Adding the absurd RNG of Diadem would only make more people skip it (Me included). Back then, they even tried to put the strongest weapon of HW in it, and it did nothing...no, scratch that, it made people hate Diadem even more because it could potentially kill the fflogs competition.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

I hardly think people will care about say... the i380 Armor sets they threw in there.

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Then, you missed the very vocal disappointment when it was revealed that Pagos wouldn't have armor upgrade.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Regardless, every single example you provided has no need for a tomestone solution because there either isn't an arduous grind behind it or it already has a solution to remedy said grind.

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I thought your problem was that Eureka was the only way of building the relic, not that is was a arduous grind, which, frankly, it's not.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Things about RNG

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The weapon has absolutely no RNG for the Anemos part, and the RNG for light in Pagos is really not that punishing, especially now that it's been patched. Sure, the coffers are random, but, you seems to have more of an issue with the relic, so it's a different topic. Should I remind you that at launch, no Primal mount is buyable. You had to wait for 4.25 to be able to buy Lakshmi and Susano mounts, 9 months after they were released...Eureka as a whole isn't even 9 months old yet, let alone Pagos, where the first RNG occurs. In fact, by the time Pagos will be 9 months old, we'll probaly be right into 5.0, so it will most likely be nerfed to the ground.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Everything has an alternative here... except Eureka.

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Again, no. Primal rewards only drop in Primals. Savage reward only drop in Savage. PvP rewards only drop in PvP. But, I guess it doesn't bother you as much because you probably like the content or because those rewards are not labeled "Relic".

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Both the Zodiac and Anima relics had an alternative method of progression

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The Zodiac had absolutely no alternative for most of its step, especially the tomestone requirement. In fact, Light farming was the only thing you could do by doing just about every duty in the game, but was painfully low at launch, and it was nerfed over and over again. And several tome items for the Anima didn't have an alternative too, mainly Umbrite, which was IMO the worst step of the Anima.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Since we already know Pagos requires 500 tokens, 50 Mendacity—a third of what you suggested—necessitates 25,000 tomes, which roughly puts it in line with the Umbrite step.

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Ok, let's say it cost a third. So, with Tint's number, building a full set would require 31 days of grinding 8h/day. It's still way too intensive for even Pagos to be threatened, since you can easily build your relic with less than half the time at that pace. Especially considering that you'd still have to level up just to reach the NPC that gives you the weapon. So again, it's not dodging the question by fear of Eureka dying but a weird question, since you don't ask the same thing about every other reward that lock you into doing one content.

I am trying to go through pagos, but it is hard because its a barren wasteland because most people have either

A: moved on to Pagos

or

B: Given up

or

C: Still in Anemos asking themselves why am I here.

It's like they were building Eureka up to be this great, grand new content but then when Pagos came along, they got cold feet.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Derio

I am trying to go through pagos, but it is hard because its a barren wasteland because most people have either

A: moved on to Pagos

or

B: Given up

or

C: Still in Anemos asking themselves why am I here.

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I'm definitely at C: i tried again but i only managed to reach level 4 before giving up

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

snip

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You know, people want an alternative to Eureka because its crap, its not more complicated than this, whatever how previous relics worked.

Put a tomestone price on every step of SB relic and people that already don't do Eureka will more likely do the tomestone way, people that hate Eureka but bother with it for some of its reward and fear of the future will stop doing it and choose the tomestone path and the very niche people that enjoy themselve in this graveyard will continue to enjoy it with the other part of the player base who just don't care about fun and just want to do it faster (if its the most efficient, less likely cause they sure love to speedrun dungeon).

As simple as that.

Some people will still complain, cause it will remain crap but its more about how they wanted it to be good or for the others reward people want but can't put themselve to suffer it.

The armor is a special case, it was annouced as a relic armor so they get the same treatment as relic weapon in some people hearts.

Most people don't want Eureka to disapear, they more likely don't want it to absorb that much ressources and don't have to do it for their beloved reward. People don't like that much PvP lock reward too they don't ask its death because its a niche feature people don't boher with or barely play to get the reward far more faster than in Eureka, put the relic in it and hell will fall on its head too.

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Originally Posted by HiroesX81

Ya know its threads like this that never end up being really looked at by the devs. Doesnt really provide feedback, doesnt really provide ways to improve the content. Doesnt provide alternatives. This is all one big bitchfest with people complaining and getting nowhere without actual merit or reasoning.

You could instead ask for ways to improve Eureka, make suggestions for it in the next iteneration but no, you just want to scrap it all together. Basically asking " Please never try anything new " I mean thats basically it when you come down to it. An entire thread just like all the others filled with emotional angst over a piece of content thats getting on your nerves and youi just cant accept that. Without even looking back as to why and how it came about in the first place.

Why should they every try anything new and interesting ever again. Cant say " Please include this next time" "Please include a way for me to do this" No just flat out DELETE. Because "If i dont enjoy it NO ONE should'

This is the whole reason this entire forum has become ONE big JOKE to everyone else. Your upset, you hate it, it sucks thats ALL that matters to all of you.

I hope you enjoy yourselves next time if were back grinding 500 dungeons 1000000 tomes running dungeons from 1 to 70 with RNG drops JUST because you couldnt come up with anything remotely useful or constructive to say. SO Please by all means PLEASE enjoy! and may the never ever try anything remotely unique or intersting again because it is JUST UNACCEPTABLE to you.

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couldn't agree more , Diadem and Eureka both are very interesting and different type of content with huge potential , sad to see the forums filled with unconstructive negativity towards new type of content , hopefully this doesn't stop the developers from trying new things instead of going back to releasing the same content over and over

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Originally Posted by itti18

couldn't agree more , Diadem and Eureka both are very interesting and different type of content with huge potential , sad to see the forums filled with unconstructive negativity towards new type of content , hopefully this doesn't stop the developers from trying new things instead of going back to releasing the same content over and over

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Eureka isn't anything new or revolutionary - all the relic steps inside of it have been done before (FATE farming, crystal farming, and light farming), and the idea of venturing to a "new" area for the relic also isn't new (Diadem 1.0 did this). Even RNG substats on the gear and weapon isn't new (again, Diadem did this and people didn't like it).

Diadem wasn't new or revolutionary either - its second iteration (the "huge revamp" they did of it) was nothing more than FATE farming with an RNG Emergency Mission that was failed more often than not because people didn't listen to the mechanics. There's a reason Diadem flopped twice, and it's not simply because the forum community is salty. Its only redeeming factor, in my opinion, was that I could gather ARR timed mode items in there. Too bad the developers didn't think to incorporating gathering into Eureka.

There's been plenty of constructive criticism towards Eureka, but it's always ignored: like the implementation of a party level sync feature that has been asked since Anemos released; or the incorporation of daily quests to earn crystals instead of having to always farm FATEs or mobs for them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Roulette with capped tome gear, normal raid, 24-man raid. And since all of this has a weekly restriction, they last more than a month. And they offer equal or better reward than Eureka...

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This does not keep people subbed over a seven month period. There's a reason why people complain they have little to do. Not to mention, it's incredibly easy to cap each week, thus you finish all this content within 2-3 days even at a slow pace.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Then, you missed the very vocal disappointment when it was revealed that Pagos wouldn't have armor upgrade.

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No. This is yet another Strawman. What I said is if you put any other gear set in Eureka, people wouldn't care about it. They only cared about the Armor because it was the unique AF3 sets. When we found out they moved away from them and simply released generic sets, people were pretty much laughing. I guarantee very few people care about the Pyros armor sets now.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

I thought your problem was that Eureka was the only way of building the relic, not that is was a arduous grind, which, frankly, it's not.

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This was in response to comments about other activities. Context is important. And calling Pagos not an tedious grind is amusing.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Should I remind you that at launch, no Primal mount is buyable. You had to wait for 4.25 to be able to buy Lakshmi and Susano mounts, 9 months after they were released...Eureka as a whole isn't even 9 months old yet, let alone Pagos, where the first RNG occurs. In fact, by the time Pagos will be 9 months old, we'll probaly be right into 5.0, so it will most likely be nerfed to the ground.

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Yes, but I can get them at my leisure. And should I elect to wait, they become far easier much faster than Eureka. Even now, Tsukiyomi falls over due to ilvl yet she's had no nerfs of any kind whatsoever. Despite being nerfed five times now Pagos remains a slog. And unlike the Primals, there are no mechanics or interactions you do for the most part. The primary focus is on endlessly killing trash mobs.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Again, no. Primal rewards only drop in Primals. Savage reward only drop in Savage. PvP rewards only drop in PvP. But, I guess it doesn't bother you as much because you probably like the content or because those rewards are not labeled "Relic".

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To a point, yes. Everything you listed requires a brain. I would have far more interest in Eureka if NMs were the focus. Why? They have mechanics. I'm not just hitting target dummies that occasional proc. Now that doesn't mean trash mobs shouldn't exist or they can't be fun in and of themselves. But when 90% of what you do is killing brain dead trash... it's not exactly compelling gameplay.

Primals, Savage and PvP also offer their rewards faster. The exception to this are Feast Season rewards, which are another controversial issue and Primal mounts. The latter is still easier to obtain and less of a grind, ironically.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

The Zodiac had absolutely no alternative for most of its step, especially the tomestone requirement. In fact, Light farming was the only thing you could do by doing just about every duty in the game, but was painfully low at launch, and it was nerfed over and over again. And several tome items for the Anima didn't have an alternative too, mainly Umbrite, which was IMO the worst step of the Anima.

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Tomestones grinds, by their very nature, are an alternative. You earn them through doing almost anything.

I didn't like the Umbrite step much either but if I didn't feel like spamming ARF, I could do Dun Scaith, Beast Tribes or Alexander. These are all options. Eureka does not have this. You have a single method of progression. You have to kill trash mobs in Pagos for light. You have to kill NMs in Pagos for Crystals. There is no away around this. A major complaint has revolved around Pagos enforcing chaining mobs when people preferred the NM train—something they brought back, especially in Pyros. Which tells you right there the devs had to buckle on their own design because people hated it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Ok, let's say it cost a third. So, with Tint's number, building a full set would require 31 days of grinding 8h/day. It's still way too intensive for even Pagos to be threatened, since you can easily build your relic with less than half the time at that pace. Especially considering that you'd still have to level up just to reach the NPC that gives you the weapon. So again, it's not dodging the question by fear of Eureka dying but a weird question, since you don't ask the same thing about every other reward that lock you into doing one content.

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Depends on how it were balanced. If light were obtained simultaneously, thus keeping it in line with Pagos, it limits that grind. Leveling in Pagos would still be an issue, though they remedied that already come Pyros by making it a breeze.

My point is you fancy Eureka. Which is fine. The complaint people have isn't Eureka itself necessarily, but that the relic—a weapon previously obtainable through running casual content—was relocated to a niche activity. Despite not being perfect by any means, a lot of people preferred the Anima relic and aren't happy they've now being forced into Eureka—content they may not like—when that wasn't the case for two iterations.

Eureka is going to be a major feature for the rest of 4.x sadly. It won't be going away for as long as Stormblood is around. I mostly enjoyed ARR and HW relics (despite some painful missteps with Atma and Unidentified objects), but SB I have totally skipped because of how terrible Eureka is...

I just hope they don't bring it or something similar back for 5.x at this point.

I still wonder how they plan to handle Eureka after 5.0 or 6.0. Yeah NMs HP scale, but not the # of mobs required to spawn a NM, not the fact that progressing through any of them solo is near impossible and you can't party up with people for chains unless you happen to be in the same level range. The way they basically abandoned Diadem gives me little hope for Eureka once the trains are gone.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Eureka, by some peoples thoughts, is successful for them. Glamours clearly havent been, due to all the complaining here on the forums.

Ultimate is probably about as successful as eureka, probably less actually, in terms of number of people able to access and do the content.

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And how many more people does it keep playing, and what is the effect of those players in particular on others? I know many a player who would lose interest in progression without a big baddie at the end to actually tackle. Ultimate gave that, and, when no further was slated for development, they quit. I've yet to see someone quit over grind content not hitting reward-obsolescence sooner so it can be replaced by more of basically the same.

Kinda tired of threads like these to be honest. Please keep making Eureka, I like it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HiroesX81

Ya know its threads like this that never end up being really looked at by the devs. Doesnt really provide feedback, doesnt really provide ways to improve the content. Doesnt provide alternatives.

Why should they every try anything new and interesting ever again.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by itti18

Diadem and Eureka both are very interesting and different type of content with huge potential , sad to see the forums filled with unconstructive negativity towards new type of content , hopefully this doesn't stop the developers from trying new things instead of going back to releasing the same content over and over.

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You both must be new here or somehow missed the countless topics suggesting alternatives and ways to improve on the Eureka experience, which in all 3 iterations has boiled down the exact same grind of fates/mobs/crystals/light. So don't talk to me about new and interesting systems of progression.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

People enjoying Eureka doesn’t mean that the content as a whole has been successful, much less well-received. I’d wager to say, by all the complaints surrounding it, that it hasn’t been well-received by a significant portion of the playerbase. Even the JP playerbase was complaining about Pagos. Meanwhile, I don’t see any “Please save Eureka” threads being made, unlike the thread made about not cancelling a third Ultimate for Stormblood—which attracted both raiders and non-raiders alike. At most, there are feedback threads made about Eureka that offer more criticisms than not. Too bad they continue to be ignored.

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Or, possibly, most people are happy with Eureka, and don't feel any need to come to the forums to say so? Because they're in the game, playing it.

Most of the threads on the forum are complaints about this, that, or the other. Most people who have a problem, come here to complain about it. So of course you're going to see mostly complaints about Eureka, or glamours, or whatever. It's a huge mistake to think that you're in some majority, like a goldfish who thinks his bowl is the ocean.

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Originally Posted by Soupa

Kinda tired of threads like these to be honest. Please keep making Eureka, I like it.

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forums would die if there wasn't a new thread about how much they don't like eureka every week

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Originally Posted by Soupa

Kinda tired of threads like these to be honest. Please keep making Eureka, I like it.

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I wouldn't have a problem with this, as long as they divorced something that a majority of the playerbase wants from something a minority enjoys.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by InkstainedGwyn

I wouldn't have a problem with this, as long as they divorced something that a majority of the playerbase wants from something a minority enjoys.

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The only thing SE learned from Diadem's iterations was to add highly desired rewards to **** content to get those participation numbers up. They know darn well most people wouldn't do Eureka if there was a feasible alternative to earn those rewards.