Got kicked Right before boss.

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Originally Posted by Shouko

All i'm saying is to people who're quick to judge not to be so, I don't really care who was in the wrong or who was in the right, i'm just here for popcorn basically. I do however think it's kind of a waste of time for the OP to come here instead of just putting it down in the tales from the duty finder like you did.

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I think giving someone the entirety of a dungeon run to change their ways doesn't exactly qualify as quick to judge..

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Originally Posted by F_Maximillian

I think giving someone the entirety of a dungeon run to change their ways doesn't exactly qualify as quick to judge..

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Were you there? No ok then don't be so quick to judge is what i'm saying. The people that were there can judge all they like but without evidence as I claimed already, there's no way to prove that what the OP or the other said. As I also said i'm more here for popcorn than anything.

I would recommand you OP, in the futur, to take a small time to at least read the new skill you get, and maybe do some research if you don't understand something.
It will avoid another situation like this.

There's nothing wrong about being new and learning, everyone were once. But that's the step you have to go through to at least master the basics.

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Originally Posted by Shouko

Were you there? No ok then don't be so quick to judge is what i'm saying. The people that were there can judge all they like but without evidence as I claimed already, there's no way to prove that what the OP or the other said. As I also said i'm more here for popcorn than anything.

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We can make assumptions just based on what the op himself and others who were actually in the party said. Either way I'm not judging. OP was misinformed but was given the proper information that he will hopefully put into practice in the future. The only judgment here are people calling out a justified kick IMO.

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Originally Posted by KaldeaSahaline

He would still be a sprout though no?

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I can at least answer this question for you with 100 percent certainty as I recently ran through the MSQ on an alt to see the changes that were made. The Sprouts do not loose their icons/status until they hit the first quest of Stormblood now, so it is entirely possible to see them in the higher level content that is in the game prior UNLESS they remove the sprout themselves via the /nastatus off command.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

But you could get lvl 50 within 2 weeks of doing quests only with double bonus exp "road to 60" and sanctuary bonus (not sure do they stack).
Seriously, you expect these players to learn anything in that time? xD

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I mean it was stated he wasn't a returning player nor a sprout so I'd assume that a lvl 51 tank would know how to use Flash/Halone combo with Circle of Scorn for threat it's the basics of tanking if they're struggling and being ridiculed in a 50 dungeon it's only gonna get worse from here on out so at least they're taking the advice. About players learning within those 2 weeks I mean we all have different standards but holding threat and learning how to mitigate as a baby tank is your first priority if you can't do that within the first 2 weeks and Hall of the Novice didn't work I dunno what to tell you.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

Did the op said he didnt use flash, or the opposite side said he had a problem with keeping the aggro?
No? So he did well enough for 2-3 weeks player.

Its a dungeon with 90 minute mark, if you feel a tank not spamming aoe all the time makes it impossible to run, then there is something wrong with you as a dps, because your dps probably socks also if you progress so slowly.
I doubt his party was any good as well, but it was easy for them to call him, instead of looking at themselves.
As a tank myself i could easly tell which party i am playing with has a good dps or not, that factor makes up 80% of the party damage most of the time if the dps are at least decent, i could chill out and focus on keeping alive myself with big pull instead of doing most of the dmg. Things just evaporate so quick if the dps know what they are doing. If they struggle to run the dungeon i guess they were not good either, yet they fast to blame a PLD in tank stance for his poor dps, PATHETIC.
Especially if you realize that PLD in dungeon on average is second lowest dps dealing class with giant gap comparing to dps (2-3 times higher), if that makes it so bad to run someone is complaining how long it takes, i have bad message for them.

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Why are you bringing DPS into this equation? This has nothing to do about damage or FFlogs it's about the basics of being a tank the whole thing is about this tank not being able to tank because he's spamming Shield Lob and letting threat run around what do you not understand? I don't care about damage as it wasn't the issue here you're missing the whole point in this thread if you think that it was DPS it was the tank unable to do their role, it's the fundamentals of being in a group and expecting everyone to do their role.

Edit: Kaldea already beat me to the punch with the quotes but yeah he didn't use Flash either just Circle of Scorn and Shield Lob, not to mention Kaldea said the DPS was great despite the Sch having to heal 4 targets with the tank not tanking anything so your DPS point is moot.

Waiting to the end to kick is super passive aggressive. Tank sounded new but that's not really an excuse cause I've met plenty of sprouts who became really good players. So if the tank wasn't listening the right thing to do would be to warn of a kick cause he was "trolling or w/e and affecting your gaming experience. " So the three offenders should've removed him sooner instead of playing that card at the end, and even though it's not their responsibility to teach him how to play or he was being that standoffish yet even so just ignoring them completely, it is still bad dungeon etiquette. Either way, think every one in this scenario is just wrong.

You're so fragile. Was all of this really necessary? Just move on and learn the BASICS, and the most importand, learn to comunicate with your group.

If I was you, I would have talked to them, learned and NOT being kicked.

If I was them, I would have done the same. I would NEVER accept that I finished a dungeon with someone incredible Deaf and blind to what I was NICELY trying to teach just to be ignored.

Seriously, get good with all the tips you got here and you will never going to be kicked again, and stop wasting GM's time with such unecessary report.

If you have no idea whatsoever how to play your job by the time you're level 51, it's not going to happen. Maybe it's better to stick with single player games.

I have been reading the whole thread since the begining, I also read the two sides of the story involved about the kick in the last boss and the uncommunicative tank. If both sides are telling the truth then it's not so difficult to assess what went wrong in the first place:

-The tank reached level 51 without knowing the basis of his class, not even the basic rotation and even knowing the half of his skills. At level 51. I dont know how he got that far by himself in the first place, no matter how many people claim to defend him from the kick: If you are playing a job you need at least to learn the basics and he had plenty of time until he reached that level to take 5 min and read his own abilities for a start. He is new and i understand that, everyone makes mistakes, hence my next point.
-I understand someone tried to point out his faults, then the SCH proceeded to harass him. The harassment needs a report, there is no doubt about that. Now, i have read how the other party member tried to talk to him, how he felt "harassed" by this person and proceeded to ignore him/her the whole run. ¿Do you guys know how frustrating is trying to help someone while being ignored the entire time while the whole party just awaits patiently for an answer and deals with the mistakes of said member? I am a Mentor, i try to help everyone if i can give a tip or two, i even ask for a pause to use a translator if i need to if i see the whole run is going to be hell because of one member. I have seen how so many posters tried to help him here while he asked them to get out because they where "harassing him". If he felt that way because of honest words, then is his fault.
-The kick before the boss is indeed a bad timing.
-Despite his rude and defensive behaviour towards some forum members he seems willing to learn. That's a good start, i will give him that.

While i understand he felt attacked in some way, one must learn to shut up their own ego and listen to advice if someone is willing to give it. Remember that we are typing, not talking. A 'rude' message for some can be a nice person on the other side just saying a truth in a neutral way or just trying to be nice.

Now, OP, I wish you luck, do not hesitate to use the forum if you need answers.

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Originally Posted by xMysticx

it was a mistake making this thread...

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I felt like this once. Everyone let this thread die.

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Originally Posted by Maighdlin

Any support I might have given you to kick the OP is nullified by this. You see it as punishment so the tank learns a lesson. I see it as abandoning someone who was being bullied and standing with the abusers. No way can I support such a decision in this particular circumstance.

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So... Because someone else was ride to the tank, everyone but the tank was wrong? Also you know it only takes two to kick right?

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

But you could get lvl 50 within 2 weeks of doing quests only with double bonus exp "road to 60" and sanctuary bonus (not sure do they stack).
Seriously, you expect these players to learn anything in that time? xD

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Judging by the fact you have to complete base 2.0 storyline and all the dungeons that entails to even access Tam Tara Deepcroft Hard, yes, I would expect a player in this situation to know the basics of their role.

Not here to defend the OP, let us be real though class quests are a joke and more then likely could be completed just spamming shield lob it would take forever but I am pretty sure it could be done. Also leveling 50 / 60 dungeons leaves much to be desired in terms of giving players a reason to improve, for shits and giggles I queued into Tam Tara HM with some friends and had our tank just use shield lob, flash and CoS it was cancer. I tip my hat to the group that dealt with it for as long as they did.

I get where people are coming from when it comes to player skill but let us face it the game itself provides very little reason for one to learn their class, if you are a causal player the game provides no reason for one to improve. I am of the mindset no player should be expected to teach another, if one player is unwilling to learn their class due to the game not providing them with a reason to do so why should the community be expected to teach the person. Personally I do not understand why people think sprout status provides players with automatic leeway, it does not it is all a personal choice and no player should be vilified for not wanting to help a sprout. If a player is willing to help a new player awesome! If not so be it it should not be expected, but when it happens like in the case of the OP you should take heed of the advice since you lucked out and found a group willing to help.

Personally I am shocked they did not kick the tank as soon as possible, instead they gave the man a chance and that is commendable. To the OP it is fine if you felt they harassed and wasted your time, but look at it from their side you wasted their time. Do not expect anyone to hold your hand, if you truly wanted to learn you would have listened to their advice, looked up guides done something. I get that this game really does not punish poor play and you could get away with a lot especially while leveling but that is not an excuse. Nor is it right to waste the time of other members simply because you are new.

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Originally Posted by KaldeaSahaline

So to be 100% clear (and please respond to this) you would have preferred I said nothing, kicked him as soon as 5 minutes passed? Given him no time to try and improve or take advice and no feedback into why he was kicked?

You think that is less toxic? WoW... that's backwards to me.

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Yes, I very much disagree with kicking someone right before the dungeon is completed. The fact that you think it was gracious of yourself to give someone the opportunity to improve is very telling in of itself.
I don't know why I bother with these threads regardless... I don't encounter these situations personally or have in relation to others in my parties.

The forums sure highlight some of the worst personalities an MMO can offer, that's for sure.

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Originally Posted by Ayer2015

Yes, I very much disagree with kicking someone right before the dungeon is completed. The fact that you think it was gracious of yourself to give someone the opportunity to improve is very telling in of itself.
I don't know why I bother with these threads regardless... I don't encounter these situations personally or have in relation to others in my parties.

The forums sure highlight some of the worst personalities an MMO can offer, that's for sure.

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You disagree on a rather debatable point. Both of you believe your stance to be the just one, and disagree with the other's position vehemently. I don't think either of you are toxic for the positions you hold tbh, just that you disagree with what should have been done in a situation where there is no right answer.

(UPDATE) I Just wanna simply point out that i haven't been replying due to the fact that i hit max post limit, i've went back and read most of your guys responses and it's mixed, i just wanna thank you for those who gave the advice and tips, also to the people who keep bashing me about my mistakes i would suggest you stop as i have already been told this at least 40% of people in this thread, so i would gladly ask you not because it's not going to resolve anything, also this is most likely my last reply to this thread, Thank you to those who were helpful with advice/guides, yes for some of you i may have came off a bit rude because i was bit annoyed at the time, but i also don't need to be scolded for the 160th time for my mistakes, anyway this is my last reply to this thread if any of you wish talk or wish to continue to talk to me outside of this thread i would gladly accept that.

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Originally Posted by Ayer2015

Yes, I very much disagree with kicking someone right before the dungeon is completed. The fact that you think it was gracious of yourself to give someone the opportunity to improve is very telling in of itself.
I don't know why I bother with these threads regardless... I don't encounter these situations personally or have in relation to others in my parties.

The forums sure highlight some of the worst personalities an MMO can offer, that's for sure.

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Keep in mind, you can't kick people if combat is happening and if the loot pool is still open (takes 5 minutes for it to close automatically). If the only time to kick someone was at the final boss, then that's just unfortunate timing.

I feel bad for the Original Poster receiving so many pages of comments just on this. Surely 4 or 5 pages would have been enough.

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Originally Posted by Squintina

I feel bad for the Original Poster receiving so many pages of comments just on this. Surely 4 or 5 pages would have been enough.

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https://imgur.com/RM7sLLt

:p I couldn't resist

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

Judging by the fact you have to complete base 2.0 storyline and all the dungeons that entails to even access Tam Tara Deepcroft Hard, yes, I would expect a player in this situation to know the basics of their role.

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You assume the OP has basic MMO trifecta game experience. FFXIV is not intuitive for players who has never played MMOs before and even I had issues with some of the UI concepts due to how inconsistent every aspect of this game was, and I've been playing MMOs since the 90s.

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Originally Posted by illgot

You assume the OP has basic MMO trifecta game experience. FFXIV is not intuitive for players who has never played MMOs before and even I had issues with some of the UI concepts due to how inconsistent every aspect of this game was, and I've been playing MMOs since the 90s.

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No, I don't actually. I had zero MMO experience before starting FFXIV. You are greatly overestimating how difficult concepts like "look at what the ability you just got does" or "read the helpful little pop ups" or even "read whats being said to you in party chat" actually are. And worse come to worse, google is a thing.

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Originally Posted by illgot

You assume the OP has basic MMO trifecta game experience. FFXIV is not intuitive for players who has never played MMOs before and even I had issues with some of the UI concepts due to how inconsistent every aspect of this game was, and I've been playing MMOs since the 90s.

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Is reading your skills when you get them that difficult?

You'd think if someone had 0 mmo experience, then all the shiny new things would make them wanna explore and learn. Do you open a single player game and not read a thing on what your stuff does and just spam X until you win?

I mean, you shouldn't. It doesn't get you much of anywhere unless you're on super ez difficulty. Why is an mmo different in that? Why wouldn't you want to know what your super cool flashy attack does?

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

Cropping it so it's not another wall of text, but about the sprout thing. I believe it's both 168 hours of playtime AND completion of the HW story, not or.

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That does seem to be the case. I’m sure I was well over the 168 hour mark, and still only lost new adventurer status immediately after the last post-Heavensward quest.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

I’m sure I was well over the 168 hour mark, and still only lost new adventurer status immediately after the last post-Heavensward quest.

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That's why I said and, not or. You gotta meet both requirements.

I meant that to confirm what you said, not correct it.

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

I once filled into a Snowcloak or however it's spelled, where the tank only used Butcher Block, never the combo, and the BLM refused to use anything that wasn't Blizzard. The WHM's heals were also quite delayed.

And yet there was me, on monk, using every bloody cooldown I got, stuck in earth instead of fire, potions, food, performing the fight perfectly so that the only thing Fenrir hurt me with were his auto's, and yet... it was a very close call after multiple pulls.

That's likely what happened here. You don't NEED a tank for most dungeons in this game. They carried him through. Or is my own case "not that bad" either since I could almost solo the last boss on Monk?

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I've completed both current expert roulette dungeons with only a RDM and a Tank.

Anything short of 8-man content is designed to be very easy and accessible.

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Originally Posted by KaldeaSahaline

and yes I reported both the DRG and SCH, because the DRG was not polite, and the SCH had some really offensive macros about how drinking bleach was better than playing with this tank.

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I hope this wasn’t done during the early or midway dungeon... best way to get someone to stop and listen eagerly.

Regarding sprout status. Can't be story or hours. I Had a sprout in hells lid yesterday. I can only assume that they story skipped and had not yet met the hourly requirements. for me I'm sure I done well over 168 hours on arr alone but didn't lose the sprout until hw ended

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Originally Posted by KaldeaSahaline

You are making a staggering number of assumptions, NONE of which are actually true.

We waited for the tank to pull. Because his pulling method was simply pushing Shield Lob over and over until out of TP on a singular mob, any pulls > 1 mob aggro was on everyone else. We did not pull for the tank, nor were ANY of us dying due to pulling threat.

You owe me a buck. Post your discord info so I can PM you my paypal info. Thanks for the easy money.

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Well if thats true and he was not holding aggro i am then so sorry for you and other two guys for that run. xD

I would have kicked him at the start if i would see something like this, i would thought it was a bot running dungeon. I have meet 1 healer that was only casting cure I spell all the time and didnt communicate with anyone despite him being a PC player, we barely made it at last boss i still think it was a bot healer.

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Originally Posted by illgot

You assume the OP has basic MMO trifecta game experience. FFXIV is not intuitive for players who has never played MMOs before and even I had issues with some of the UI concepts due to how inconsistent every aspect of this game was, and I've been playing MMOs since the 90s.

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Idk about the PC client, but on console if you lvl up your character you get your skills at the bar and you dont need to fill them it.
Well it took me few minutes to realize there is something like "combo", the tips are popping all the time about the abilities you could use and stuff like that.
You just have to use them everytime you get a new ability to use.

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Originally Posted by illgot

snip

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Pretty much any game out there requires basic reading skills....heck most of them list that on the game boxes... Reading Skills/Abilities is not just an MMO thing. As someone who barely dipped their toes into MMO's mostly WoW prior to being sucked into FFXIV, FFXIV was infinitely easier to find the information at least on skills and such when you were looking for them. It's part of why I loved this game more. The UI is relatively easy (however the mini map sucks) as well to pick up for newbies, if you read out what everything is for. Maybe when starting the game t hey should really do a basic, read all the things tutorial and not just the help tips that you can pretty much instantly turn off (or make it where you cant turn them off).

Back to the original topic, I've been watching this thread a while. and its actually been a bit eye opening.

However to the OP, please please PLEASE learn your abilities. While it wrong to be ridiculed by some of the party, it was also wrong of you to not know how to properly use your class. Just take a few minutes and read the abilities you have, and worse case, redo your hotbars. It's only going to get worse if you don't.

Sprout icon doesnt really matter. People can turn it off at anytime. Just many new players dont know how to

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Originally Posted by KerriganV

I can at least answer this question for you with 100 percent certainty as I recently ran through the MSQ on an alt to see the changes that were made. The Sprouts do not loose their icons/status until they hit the first quest of Stormblood now, so it is entirely possible to see them in the higher level content that is in the game prior UNLESS they remove the sprout themselves via the /nastatus off command.

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Appreciate it. I never knew that was even a thing. How does one find out about that, but not how your basic abilities work? Legitimate question.

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Originally Posted by Gugnir

Waiting to the end to kick is super passive aggressive. Tank sounded new but that's not really an excuse cause I've met plenty of sprouts who became really good players. So if the tank wasn't listening the right thing to do would be to warn of a kick cause he was "trolling or w/e and affecting your gaming experience. " So the three offenders should've removed him sooner instead of playing that card at the end, and even though it's not their responsibility to teach him how to play or he was being that standoffish yet even so just ignoring them completely, it is still bad dungeon etiquette. Either way, think every one in this scenario is just wrong.

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Copy pasta response I made to someone else:

So to be 100% clear you would have preferred I said nothing, kicked him as soon as 5 minutes passed? Given him no time to try and improve or take advice and no feedback into why he was kicked?

You truly think that a better solution? Why?

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Originally Posted by Ayer2015

Yes, I very much disagree with kicking someone right before the dungeon is completed. The fact that you think it was gracious of yourself to give someone the opportunity to improve is very telling in of itself.
I don't know why I bother with these threads regardless... I don't encounter these situations personally or have in relation to others in my parties.

The forums sure highlight some of the worst personalities an MMO can offer, that's for sure.

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That's ironic coming from you LOL. I treated him exactly how I would want to be treated. That's life 101.

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Originally Posted by StragoMagus

I hope this wasn’t done during the early or midway dungeon... best way to get someone to stop and listen eagerly.

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That statement the SCH made was done roughly 45s before the PLD was kicked. We had just arrived at the final boss gate with loot on a 60s left timer, where I stated "I'm almost 100% ok with kicking this tank and just 3 manning the boss". The others agreed and so we waited down the remaining 45 or so seconds, when the SCH had that shit on a macro. I had already resolved myself of the kick, so I wasn't going to change it because of the SCH was rude.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

Well if thats true and he was not holding aggro i am then so sorry for you and other two guys for that run. xD

I would have kicked him at the start if i would see something like this, i would thought it was a bot running dungeon. I have meet 1 healer that was only casting cure I spell all the time and didnt communicate with anyone despite him being a PC player, we barely made it at last boss i still think it was a bot healer.

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Thank you for understanding. You still owe me a $1 though. You're not getting off that easy.

Side note: - do you truly believe it would have been better to say nothing and just kick him at 5 mins in? Giving him no feedback or chance to improve?

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Originally Posted by Derio

Sprout icon doesnt really matter. People can turn it off at anytime. Just many new players dont know how to

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I'm an experienced player and I had no idea that was even a thing. You're telling me this guy found out/researched how to do that, but can't read a single tooltip? That doesn't strike you as odd?

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Originally Posted by KaldeaSahaline

Thank you for understanding. You still owe me a $1 though. You're not getting off that easy.

Side note: - do you truly believe it would have been better to say nothing and just kick him at 5 mins in? Giving him no feedback or chance to improve?

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I would give up after first boss.

Just tell "sorry man, you need to watch some guides for tanking before you get into hard content, thanks bye" thats all, because even if you tell them they will not learn in that short period of time, they will refuse to do it because they dont find any reason to do any different than they do right now, or they will not want to change their skill settings in the hotbar.
Good intentions are fine and giving advices about the dungeon/trial mechanics is even expected to do for newbies, but advices about the playstyle nah they will never work like at all in any given game. xD

Tam-Tara HM has such close quarters that the pulls can keep them from engaging in a kick or an open chest + the pull becomes a mess that they don't get a window to do so until the last boss.

I would have definitely given up after the 2nd boss but (barring Kaldea saying more), I don't know the situation of the loot and engagement. Depending on how patient I felt. I might have given up after the first boss. I've been the tank who just didn't have the energy to deal with mass pulls so having NIN and WHM pull a whole section before a door meant I decided to leave. To be honest I can't decide if I'd have kicked or decided to leave in that case because I would have definitely done one of those to get out. I've also grit my teeth before and probably contributed to some people not learning just because I didn't have the time, mental health and patience to do so and would rather just auto pilot a shit dungeon too. I myself don't like to just sit my ass down and stop if people are continuing so I can understand why some might have not done that if OP or in any other case's tank kept pulling.

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Originally Posted by illgot

You assume the OP has basic MMO trifecta game experience. FFXIV is not intuitive for players who has never played MMOs before and even I had issues with some of the UI concepts due to how inconsistent every aspect of this game was, and I've been playing MMOs since the 90s.

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I played wow before joining FFXIV but i didn't play as a tank in wow i was mainly dps, so yes FFXIV is my first mmo playing as a tank, so let's not downgrade somebody just sayin.

also about the whole sprout thing yes i did hide mine, I don't understand what your point is for not showing mine, simply because i don't want the icon next to my name tag.

You have two healers in the group???

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Originally Posted by xMysticx

I would also like to add the fact that Kaldea was the Dragoon,so i don't know why your trying act like you had no idea who the dragoon was when you were the DRG, here's how the party was i was the tank, healer, scholar and (Kaldea) was dragoon, so i would suggest you next time include the part where you said you were the DRG, also about the whole sprout thing yes i did hide mine, I don't understand what your point is for not showing mine, simply because i don't want the icon next to my name tag.

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So you had two healers in your party?

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Originally Posted by ExKage

You have two healers in the group???

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All i remember was for the party was, me (Tank) (Scholar) (Dragoon) (Healer), i'm not confidently sure what class kaldea was at the time of this but i'm 40% she was indeed the Dragoon.