It's past time, Yoshi-P...

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Originally Posted by Naunet

Having healers spend the majority of their time healing in group content doesn't mean eliminating dps spells. Healer jobs need to be able to solo out in the open world, too, after all.

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And yet Holy has still received numerous nerfs and solo DPS for healers at the beginning of this patch cycle was a nightmare. Every healer main I'm acquainted with had a nightmare of a time soloing through SB compared to HW due to the the developers trying to focus on making healers /heal/ more by nerfing Cleric Stance and many of our kits. Which, as of this current part of the cycle has mostly been undone and with good reason with the exception of Cleric's. The issue here is that these developers don't know how to make both sides viable and tend to take a ratchet to the perceived problem rather than a screw. So forgive me if I honestly can very easily see them blundering in just a bad a way if they tried to forcibly shift the meta yet again.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

It didn't always. Things were different when it was just ARR. SE has slowly made healing and tanking less necessary. They can continue it or if they really don't intend for the game to be like this, they can make adjustments.

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The only difference between ARR and now is that in ARR tanks would sometimes go back into tank stance, whereas now you can just turn it off and forget it exists.

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Originally Posted by Canadane

It makes tanking and healing a lot less boring.

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I agree with this, but I also agree that nobody should be harrassing a tank who's not doing dps levels of dps, or using TANK stance for his job. When tank stance becomes useless for tanking, we have a huge problem.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

It didn't always. Things were different when it was just ARR. SE has slowly made healing and tanking less necessary. They can continue it or if they really don't intend for the game to be like this, they can make adjustments.

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ARR required twice as many Damage Dealing classes as healers and tanks across all of its content that imposed restrictions.

That didn't give away the fact that they placed damage a bit higher? If you ask me, I think non-premade 4 mans should be converted to 8 mans so the DPS have lower queues. 1 tank, 1 healer, and 6 dps. That alone will cut DPS queue times by 50-75%.

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Originally Posted by Kaethra

ARR required twice as many Damage Dealing classes as healers and tanks across all of its content that imposed restrictions.

That didn't give away the fact that they placed damage a bit higher? If you ask me, I think non-premade 4 mans should be converted to 8 mans so the DPS have lower queues. 1 tank, 1 healer, and 6 dps. That alone will cut DPS queue times by 50-75%.

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So they'll have to scale up monsters health and instances will take longer as you'll have triple the chances of getting disappointing DPS players? No thanks...

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Originally Posted by Fyce

Just to make it clear: nobody is arguing about how new players don't play optimally.
What is argued revolves around experienced players who made the deliberate choice not to play how the game was designed, even after having the full knowledge of what should and shouldn't be done. It's also about these players not caring about trying to have a balanced team effort no matter what, simply because of their beliefs. We are talking about selfish individuals who make their own comfort as their number one priority, often at the expense of others.

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I'm aware. We've been through 100+ pages of this on the healer forum already. :)

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And since you said "this is entirely true, and it's the root of a lot of this" to someone who thinks that the way FFXIV healers are desined is a "flaw", I am obligated to say it again: no, it's not a flaw. The flaw is inside these people's brain, who refuse to think that a game's take on that aspect might be different than the very few other games they have played. They are simply inept to adapt, and that's the problem. Not the game.

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Ah, I was replying to the part about it being different in other MMOs specifically, not that it's a flaw. Sorry the confusion.

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Originally Posted by AxlStream

So they'll have to scale up monsters health and instances will take longer as you'll have triple the chances of getting disappointing DPS players? No thanks...

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Premades are looking better and better aren't they?

Like I said in a few threads. If you're a tank, just announce you're looking for DPS to queue with. You'll get dozens of replies and they'll do far more damage than getting paired with one who's been in the queue for 45min.

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Originally Posted by Kaethra

Premades are looking better and better aren't they?

Like I said in a few threads. If you're a tank, just announce you're looking for DPS to queue with. You'll get dozens of replies and they'll do far more damage than getting paired with one who's been in the queue for 45min.

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Oh believe me, I already do. Doesn't filter out the bad players. Just those not smart enough to look at PF every once in a while.

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Originally Posted by Kaethra

Premades are looking better and better aren't they?

Like I said in a few threads. If you're a tank, just announce you're looking for DPS to queue with. You'll get dozens of replies and they'll do far more damage than getting paired with one who's been in the queue for 45min.

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Unless I specify speedruns, I tend to get average or below average players in this way. It seems as if PF-only players are often overestimated as being "above" DF, when in fact many of them lack the basic competence to queue on their own for anything serious without soon being kicked, and simply latch onto anti-random sentiments as the cause for their personal shortcomings. Unless the PF specifies, expect that you're also drawing from crowds quite possibly beneath a DF average. The only real restriction you're placing otherwise is whether or not the person searched for a criteria matching your party recruitment while it was open.

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Originally Posted by Kaethra

ARR required twice as many Damage Dealing classes as healers and tanks across all of its content that imposed restrictions.

That didn't give away the fact that they placed damage a bit higher? If you ask me, I think non-premade 4 mans should be converted to 8 mans so the DPS have lower queues. 1 tank, 1 healer, and 6 dps. That alone will cut DPS queue times by 50-75%.

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No thanks. smaller teams were a major draw for me for this game, I don't need more 8 man dungeons.

The DPS Meta is what made me quit raiding on my WHM of 4 years. Having to maintain perfect timed heals, mechanics, covering for people’s mistakes and high DPS on O4S pushed me past my limits and I just walked away from it, just way too much stress for the reward. SE has made their decision on the matter, you only have to look at the final MSQ dungeon and you will see all the healer NPCs doing DPS rather than healing.

Your all DPS is the new reality, accept it now and it will make it easier on yourself. If you continue to want a pure or semi-pure healer, I suggest you find another game.

I know the thought has crossed my mind a few times...

I liked 2.0 tanking more when enmity was a bigger concern and people loled at anyone who says "but Riot Blade is higher dps". In 4.0 I quit tanking and now only play as DPS because if I'm going to be focused on dps, I might as well play a real DPS. Same for healer.

Positioning, placement, enmity, survivability. These gameplay elements are unique to the tank job, but the current design has removed the last two.

I'm guessing this design has attracted more players to play tank, though. So it looks like it's here to stay.

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Originally Posted by Zfz

I'm guessing this design has attracted more players to play tank, though. So it looks like it's here to stay.

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Not many understand why there is a lack of tanks in the 4 man queues (the ones where DPS have to wait for up to 45 minutes).

1. Tanking isn't harder.
2. Tanking isn't less enjoyable.
3. There isn't a lack of people who want to play tanks.
4. Tanking isn't the leadership role.

None of those reasons people use.

Endgame disparity. That's the reason.

Alliance raids: 3 Tanks, 6 Healers, 15 DPS. DPS queue is usually under 5 minutes. Everyone's queue is about that due to how many you need (24). Except tanks, tanks have a longer queue due to only needing 3 of them.

Raids, 2 tanks, 2 Healers, and 4 DPS. Should be similar to regular 4 man queues right? Still the 1:1:2 ratio. These are usually statics for the Savage and they've got their tanks. Its the DPS, because they need 2x more of them AND they need good ones to progress that there is a high turnover rate. Many tanks get to 70 and realize they need to roll a DPS or form a new static and find 6 DPS.

Suffice to say.. the game everyone works up to is the 70 game. 1-69 is the journey there. Journey means you don't stay there forever, you eventually reach the destination, then its time to really play the game.

This is why I suggested that we move the 4 man queue for DF (and only for non-premades) to 8 man. And yes it would adjust the HP accordingly to still provide an adequate challenge. And to comment on the one who said they prefer smaller groups. 8 People still quite small compared to 20+. I've played a variety of MMORPGs over the last 20 years. I've worked with group sizes from 3 to 6. They work the same. the only difference is when you get more than 5 is that subroles begin to appear and ADPS becomes more prevalent.

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Originally Posted by Kaethra

Not many understand why there is a lack of tanks in the 4 man queues (the ones where DPS have to wait for up to 45 minutes).

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Seeing as how it's a common problem across trinity based MMOs, I really don't buy that.

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2. Tanking isn't less enjoyable.

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All the people who refuse to play one because they find DPS more fun would like disagree with your assessment, as would the people who would rather be going as DPS but don't want to wait in the queue. What is more or less enjoyable is inherently subjective.

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3. There isn't a lack of people who want to play tanks.

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Simple math suggests otherwise.

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Alliance raids: 3 Tanks, 6 Healers, 15 DPS. DPS queue is usually under 5 minutes. Everyone's queue is about that due to how many you need (24). Except tanks, tanks have a longer queue due to only needing 3 of them.

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Except that in the first Alliance raid the game added, this wasn't true. It was 6:6:12 for the usual ratio, and it was constantly waiting for tanks. It also turned out to be pretty cumbersome to create fights that actually need six tanks, so you wind up with several of them DPSing the entire run anyway.

They reacted by requiring fewer tanks for Alliance raids because of the problems, and the tank wait in Ivalice isn't all that long.

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Raids, 2 tanks, 2 Healers, and 4 DPS. Should be similar to regular 4 man queues right? Still the 1:1:2 ratio. These are usually statics for the Savage and they've got their tanks. Its the DPS, because they need 2x more of them AND they need good ones to progress that there is a high turnover rate. Many tanks get to 70 and realize they need to roll a DPS or form a new static and find 6 DPS.

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Looking through the recruitment lists, I don't see it. If you're a competent tank, it's in no way difficult to find a static that needs you. I think you have it backwards more often than not, where a DPS has to switch to tank (or healer) because finding people in that role who will stick around is hard. They've got a lot of options.

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This is why I suggested that we move the 4 man queue for DF (and only for non-premades) to 8 man. And yes it would adjust the HP accordingly to still provide an adequate challenge. And to comment on the one who said they prefer smaller groups. 8 People still quite small compared to 20+. I've played a variety of MMORPGs over the last 20 years. I've worked with group sizes from 3 to 6. They work the same. the only difference is when you get more than 5 is that subroles begin to appear and ADPS becomes more prevalent.

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Aside from the detail that you'd have to redesign every leveling dungeon in the game to give a second tank something to tank, that wouldn't solve anything. If the goal is to reduce DPS queues by changing group size, the thing you do is increase it to 5 and add a third DPS. Boom, 50% more DPS players getting into dungeons for every tank and healer. And even then, the queue time still wouldn't be eliminated, because when the DPS queue gets short enough, people who wanted to play it but were playing another role for faster queues just switch back. It'd ease that pressure, at least.

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Originally Posted by Tridus

Aside from the detail that you'd have to redesign every leveling dungeon in the game to give a second tank something to tank, that wouldn't solve anything.

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I didn't say to add a second tank. 1 Tank, 1 Healer, 6 DPS. 1 + 1 + 6 = 8

It would reduce DPS queues by 50-75% or more. I could give the math to why that is, but its a bit of a long explanation. Or you could do it yourself. Just start with 5000 players, assume 20% of them are queuing, assume 20 minutes is an average run and you can determine the ratio of DPS/Healers/Tanks that are queuing. Adjust the ratios needed and you'll be able to extrapolate the time reduction.

As someone who loves, loves, loves DPSing as a healer, I do strongly agree with the OP. SE need to stop catering to the snowflakes and actually give us harder content to heal and tank through.

Tanks should have to constantly control enmity, rather than making it a party obligation, and damage needs to be tuned up in regular intervals to keep healers healing. There's nothing wrong with tanks/healers adding DPS, but their difficulty should come first and foremost in their primary role. I don't find it satisying DPSing 90% of the fight and throwing out an Indom whenever it's needed. That's basically the end-game for most SCHs right now, and we still end up with 50% overall healing alongside our cohealers. If people couldn't handle the stress of healing or tanking being made a little more difficult, then they shouldn't play that role. It really should be that simple!

On the flipside, if they don't want to make a change, give tanks and healers more intricate DPS rotations. Not quite on the level of DPS, but at least more than DoTs + nuke spam. It's dull.

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Originally Posted by Kabzy

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To be honest. I can't disagree with this.

The tank I normally run with can take all the adds from one boss to another and does so frequently, only stopped by dungeon mechanics that block your way arbitrarily. He jokingly states he does it to see if the healers stop DPSing. Whats sad is sometimes they don't because they don't need to. And on bosses its even less damage (bosses simply don't do the damage of 15-30 trash mobs).

When ARR first came out, and before 2.1, I do remember using Repose and Sleep as Crowd Control. To be honest, I wouldn't mind seeing this return. If it means cutting down trash, to keep the dungeons from being too long, that's not a bad compromise. And one way to do this would be to use ilvl scaling on even leveling dungeons. Even though our level is scaled down, our gear isn't held back too much.

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Originally Posted by Kaethra

1. Tanking isn't harder.
2. Tanking isn't less enjoyable.
3. There isn't a lack of people who want to play tanks.
4. Tanking isn't the leadership role.

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Disagree. Those reasons are some of the reasons that people don't play tanks. Why wouldn't anyone want to play tanks if they get better rewards (cluster, gil) in a reward centric game if no one had any of those issues with it. This game just makes it easier due to the armoury system to play a different job and still be able to gear the tank while dropping all the possible stress related issues related to tanking that some players have.

Increasing the queue size doesn't really show anything other than there is only 1 tank for every 5 or 6 dps (TBH this is overkill, 1/1/3 is enough) which means... there is a lack of tanks in the first place. Sometimes I get an insane number on the waiting list as dps during primetime but it moves pretty quick so adding another dps slot would drop the times enough where you wouldn't impact the tank or healer queues too much.

Also you would impact smaller groups that just do premades. Now they have to find up to 4 more people just to run a dungeon.

I know how to tank dungeons easily, but I would much rather queue healer or dps if I could unless it is a premade just to not deal with shenanigans.

As for main topic, I don't think they have to rebalance the entire game over stuff that in my experience doesn't even happen very often. I've been playing since launch and I've barely seen anyone in casual content get salty just because the healer or tank isn't playing optimally. Most runs people say hi, do the content with no one saying a word maybe some random jokes, say bye and life goes on.

In EX/Savage maybe, but that's because personal responsibility goes up since everyone has to pull their weight or a clear might not be in reach. These are usually in premade groups anyhow, where there are going to be some sort of requirements in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Kaethra

I didn't say to add a second tank. 1 Tank, 1 Healer, 6 DPS. 1 + 1 + 6 = 8

It would reduce DPS queues by 50-75% or more. I could give the math to why that is, but its a bit of a long explanation. Or you could do it yourself. Just start with 5000 players, assume 20% of them are queuing, assume 20 minutes is an average run and you can determine the ratio of DPS/Healers/Tanks that are queuing. Adjust the ratios needed and you'll be able to extrapolate the time reduction.

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So then when you get to endgame you suddenly need twice as many tanks and healers as can fit through the levelling dungeons? That's an awful idea. That'll lead to more endgame shortages of those roles by making them harder to get through levelling and create a huge glut of DPS who get to 70 and suddenly discover that it's going to take several times longer to get into everything because so few of them are comparatively needed to form a group.

If you're going to go the route of messing with group sizes, go all out. Change the base party to five and the full party to ten. 50% more DPS slots per tank & healer without hitting a brick wall at 70.

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Originally Posted by Kaethra

To be honest. I can't disagree with this.

The tank I normally run with can take all the adds from one boss to another and does so frequently, only stopped by dungeon mechanics that block your way arbitrarily. He jokingly states he does it to see if the healers stop DPSing. Whats sad is sometimes they don't because they don't need to. And on bosses its even less damage (bosses simply don't do the damage of 15-30 trash mobs).

When ARR first came out, and before 2.1, I do remember using Repose and Sleep as Crowd Control. To be honest, I wouldn't mind seeing this return. If it means cutting down trash, to keep the dungeons from being too long, that's not a bad compromise. And one way to do this would be to use ilvl scaling on even leveling dungeons. Even though our level is scaled down, our gear isn't held back too much.

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I'd love to see that come back. The reason this "run wall to wall and grab everything" stuff works is because mobs hit like they have nerf swords. Autoattacks do basically nothing to a tank, so you don't feel it without tons of packs hitting you. Experts are pretty badly misnamed because they're so mindless right now. Auran Vale is STILL more dangerous than every expert currently in the game. Running bindly into that first room grabbing everything will get you wiped in short order.

You don't really need to use scaling. It's okay if people overpower stuff eventually. Mobs just need to hit hard enough that having 9 of them hitting you is suicidal instead of annoying, and then we'd see people using CC and pulling more selectively instead of the zerg that we get now.

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Originally Posted by Tridus

Change the base party to five and the full party to ten

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sometimes i wish this were the case with our game like there's a time you ask your friends in the ls for some expert roulette, and 4 people say yes, sometimes you wish you could just take all 4 of them and go in as 5 people but you cannot as it is now, and you have to say no to someone or someone would take the initiative and drop out because you could only take 3

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Originally Posted by Kabzy

As someone who loves, loves, loves DPSing as a healer, I do strongly agree with the OP. SE need to stop catering to the snowflakes and actually give us harder content to heal and tank through.

Tanks should have to constantly control enmity, rather than making it a party obligation, and damage needs to be tuned up in regular intervals to keep healers healing. There's nothing wrong with tanks/healers adding DPS, but their difficulty should come first and foremost in their primary role. I don't find it satisying DPSing 90% of the fight and throwing out an Indom whenever it's needed. That's basically the end-game for most SCHs right now, and we still end up with 50% overall healing alongside our cohealers. If people couldn't handle the stress of healing or tanking being made a little more difficult, then they shouldn't play that role. It really should be that simple!

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Yup. Remember back when MP management was a thing? Good times. Things have gotten simpler over time, and now we're in a situation where spells like Cure don't really have a purpose because there's no reason to use it over Cure 2 except MP efficiency... which doesn't matter since it's so easy to never run out of MP (unless you're casting Raise a lot).

On the healer end, the biggest problem is that healing is too strong relative to HP pools. You can burst a party from 1HP to full in a matter of seconds, at which point if they're not getting blasted back down immediately, you're done. A rebalance on this end would need an across the board HPS nerf, but they've been going the opposite direction all of Stormblood.

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On the flipside, if they don't want to make a change, give tanks and healers more intricate DPS rotations. Not quite on the level of DPS, but at least more than DoTs + nuke spam. It's dull.

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A million times this. I've got lots of healing buttons that do interesting things. I spend the majority of my time hitting Stone, which is the most boring DPS skill in the game (you can't even call it a rotation). If they want us to spend 70% of our time DPSing, devote some more effort to make that more interesting to do.

Not much if a raider, but would it hurt the game if SE just gave people an option? Provide players with content where auto attacks do say 1/2 the tanks HP, were encounters have more unavoidable raid wide damage. If some people want to be more active healers or tanks give them that content. I do not see why they cannot if they are able to make a fight that prob less the 1% of the player base will clear, why not provide other forms of content a smaller group of the player base will enjoy.

Hellluuuuuu

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Originally Posted by Enla

Except that's not what they've done in any of the other MMO's I've played? I started in GW2 where every class had their own heal and was expected to share the load on top of DPSing. Then I went to LoTRO where even the 'pure' healers were expected to output damage as well. Finally I went to SWTOR where, you guessed it, damage was essential even as a heal spec'd Smuggler/Operative or Consular/Inquisitor. I've literally never played a game where 'pure' healing was part of the meta.

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And in the MMOs I play regularly - WoW, Rift, WildStar (GW2 doesn't count as it doesn't really have a trinity system) - healers are not expected to dps. So once again - it's not unusual for someone to come into this particular MMO with that expectation.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

You are so dense, even a paid lightsaber from Battlefront II lootboxes wouldn't even scratch you. Because, yes, it seems that I have to explain some things to you, because it's already the third time and you still didn't get it.

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Excellent job on both the personal attacks and completely misunderstanding my point.

An addendum that is entirely beside the point I was making, and I will hope that noting such here will make it clear to certain people that again, it is not related to my statements above: The current healer meta is, in my opinion, dull. Periodic bursts of damage that are healed up in one or two GCDs in 8-man content, or damage so low and steady that all I have to do is maintain an aspected benefic on the tank in 4-man content =/= engaging healing content. I main AST because at least I have the addition of managing cards, but even that's just a couple GCDs here and there. The vast majority of my time is spent spamming a single damage nuke and occasionally refreshing a dot. Not exactly exciting.

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Originally Posted by Awha

Not much if a raider, but would it hurt the game if SE just gave people an option? Provide players with content where auto attacks do say 1/2 the tanks HP, were encounters have more unavoidable raid wide damage.

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I have a question: What exactly is a "more active tank"?
Tanks have a set amount of defensive cooldowns and just turning a stance on and leaving it on doesn't seem very active...
Plus, I don't think the 20% reduction to damage tanks get from tank-stance is going to be that effective if the user's HP is going to continuously be blasted past 50% like you want it to be.
And do you honestly think casual players would want to play as a healer that has to continuously heal a tank who keeps getting blasted?

My 2 cents:

Tanking roulettes is an exercise in frustration, you have arguably the most responsibility but you get the least reward for playing above par. An incredible tank will enable a good group to do great things in dungeons, but if the group is awful, there's not a huge amount you can do about it beyond adjusting the pace accordingly.

Healing can also be rather frustrating, but IMHO the gameplay is far more rewarding across a much broader range of groups. You can carry a bad run or you can shave an extra couple of minutes off that top notch quick clear.

SE have to shoulder a good portion of the blame though IMHO. Frankly I think the model they design their dungeons around is fundamentally flawed and has been since since they backed down over Pharos Sirius.

The term 'expert' is massively misleading when you consider the difficulty of the dungeons it involves. Thus it's all too easy for casual Joe to do their dailies thinking they are performing just fine because hey, they cleared the 'expert' content right? Rabanastre is a fantastic demonstration of what happens when average casual players let their standard of play rot away due to the daily content simply not requiring anything more. And then of course, once they hit content that actually punishes them for all those mistakes they've previously been getting away with, the results are pretty much akin to a train wreck.

Hashmal isn't difficult or complex, it just kills you when you mess up enough. Amdapor Keep in 2.0 demonstrates that SE could get dungeon bosses right and I'd argue that Pharos Sirius was a few telegraphs away from being perfection as well. I really don't understand why Expert is consistently so far removed from anything else resembling challenging content.

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Originally Posted by Mimilu

I have a question: What exactly is a "more active tank"?
Tanks have a set amount of defensive cooldowns and just turning a stance on and leaving it on doesn't seem very active...
Plus, I don't think the 20% reduction to damage tanks get from tank-stance is going to be that effective if the user's HP is going to continuously be blasted past 50% like you want it to be.
And do you honestly think casual players would want to play as a healer that has to continuously heal a tank who keeps getting blasted?

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Now where did I mention this is what 'I' want, just going based off what other people have mentioned in the countless threads. I am sure SE is smart enough to figure out some form of content that pleases those players that enjoy only healing or sitting in tank stance and have this playstyle be considered viable for the content that they are in. Also where did I mention causal players, they already have their content were you can pretty much do the bare min and clear the content. All I said was would it hurt so much if SE gave people an form of content that caters to their desired play style? Since they were willing to make an encounter that prob only 1% of the community will clear, I am sure they could make content that those that want live out their tank and healer fantasy without running the risk of being ridiculed.

Now while this type of playstyle is not my cup of tea, I am sure SE can work with the community that does enjoy this type of play style to create some content that fits their desires. I do not have an answer to your question since that is not what I want, but as a player I do think it would be cool if other playstyles were supported by SE and had content to reflect it.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Rabanastre is a fantastic demonstration of what happens when average casual players let their standard of play rot away due to the daily content simply not requiring anything more. And then of course, once they hit content that actually punishes them for all those mistakes they've previously been getting away with, the results are pretty much akin to a train wreck.

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I'm getting flashbacks of waterballs, sandballs, and archdaemons not being killed... ;A;

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Originally Posted by Awha

Snap

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And when did I ever say you wanted it? I was just asking you questions about the suggestion you were making.
The issue with adding a new content-type that focuses less on DPS and more on Healing and Defensive-Tanking is that they would have to balance abilities around it, causal play, and raiding. SE already has an issue balancing around just casual and raiding.

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Originally Posted by Awha

Now while this type of playstyle is not my cup of tea, I am sure SE can work with the community that does enjoy this type of play style to create some content that fits their desires.

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I don't see that working well though. If players can't perform their role's main responsibilities now to the point they can focus on dpsing, then I doubt they'll be able to clear content with a much higher focus on their role's main responsibilities.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Rabanastre is a fantastic demonstration of what happens when average casual players let their standard of play rot away due to the daily content simply not requiring anything more. And then of course, once they hit content that actually punishes them for all those mistakes they've previously been getting away with, the results are pretty much akin to a train wreck.

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I thought Zurvan Ex did a fine job of this, it even showed just how toxic casual players can be.

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Originally Posted by Mimilu

And when did I ever say you wanted it? I was just asking you questions about the suggestion you were making.
The issue with adding a new content-type that focuses less on DPS and more on Healing and Defensive-Tanking is that they would have to balance abilities around it, causal play, and raiding. SE already has an issue balancing around just casual and raiding.

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Pretty sure new raid encounter is balanced around top end players only. So certainly SE is willing to make content for a small sub set of players that is balanced around them. Not everything in a game has to be cleared by every subset of players. Also sorry figured since you quoted me I figured you were asking me what a more active tank is, did not know it was a general question.

I am sure SE has developers on staff that would love to make content that places a larger burden on tank and healers, I say let them go ham. Not all content has to be made with every player in mind, that mindset is what causes issues within a community. If SE provided enough variety in content that focused on a wider range of play styles I am willing to bet overall we will have a happier community.

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Originally Posted by HoodRat

I don't see that working well though. If players can't perform their role's main responsibilities now to the point they can focus on dpsing, then I doubt they'll be able to clear content with a much higher focus on their role's main responsibilities.

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Said content will not be meant for those type of players. They already have their own content that can be cleared by putting for the barely any effort. This content will be designed around players that want tank stance to hold more value or not be bashed for sitting in tank stance, and for encounters that allow players to focus solely on healing without being ridiculed. It is not a perfect idea, but I think this type of content will create a preferred play style that allows for content that matches it. Instead of it being forced on all players.

Rabanastre is a raid, and nothing new. When first released, every stage of each 24-man raid destroyed non-raiders. World of Darkness, Wiping City ("Do not /taunt Happy Fun Ball.")...no, you can't use Rabanastre as an example of casuals going soft, sorry.

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Originally Posted by Xerek

Rabanastre is a raid, and nothing new. When first released, every stage of each 24-man raid destroyed non-raiders. World of Darkness, Wiping City ("Do not /taunt Happy Fun Ball.")...no, you can't use Rabanastre as an example of casuals going soft, sorry.

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There is no enrage, no big penality of bosses there, so no it makes people go soft.

No, we need to concentrate on what really matters, and that is fixing DRK

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Originally Posted by Awha

Said content will not be meant for those type of players. They already have their own content that can be cleared by putting for the barely any effort. This content will be designed around players that want tank stance to hold more value or not be bashed for sitting in tank stance, and for encounters that allow players to focus solely on healing without being ridiculed. It is not a perfect idea, but I think this type of content will create a preferred play style that allows for content that matches it. Instead of it being forced on all players.

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I know there are people who can excel at tanking/healing and want content that puts a higher emphasis on that rather than dps, but I believe you are overestimating how many people like that exist. In my experience, most tanks/healers who complain about having to dps are the ones that either can't because they aren't good enough at tanking/healing (and they usually don't care about improving because they can still clear content like that) or the ones that just don't even try because, "I'm not a dps," either attitude won't excel when the difficulty gets ramped up.

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Originally Posted by HoodRat

I know there are people who can excel at tanking/healing and want content that puts a higher emphasis on that rather than dps, but I believe you are overestimating how many people like that exist. In my experience, most tanks/healers who complain about having to dps are the ones that either can't because they aren't good enough at tanking/healing (and they usually don't care about improving because they can still clear content like that) or the ones that just don't even try because, "I'm not a dps," either attitude won't excel when the difficulty gets ramped up.

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Not really overestimating, I know they prob do not even amount to 1% of the overall active player base, but at even that number is enough for them to do ult, meh I say give other subset of players some love.

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Originally Posted by Xerek

Rabanastre is a raid, and nothing new. When first released, every stage of each 24-man raid destroyed non-raiders. World of Darkness, Wiping City ("Do not /taunt Happy Fun Ball.")...no, you can't use Rabanastre as an example of casuals going soft, sorry.

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Rabanastre is casual catchup content irrespective of whether it is a raid or not. The mechanics it throws out there are far more simplistic and sedately paced than what we see in Savage/EX etc.

I'd also argue that Rabanastre is one of the easiest 24 mans so far, yet huge chunks of the populace still struggle with it. Simply standing in the correct half of the arena for a clearly telegraphed dive is too much for many on Hashmal.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Simply standing in the correct half of the arena for a clearly telegraphed dive is too much for many on Hashmal.

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To be fair, if you're unlucky enough to be on the extreme opposite side of wherever he is about to dive through, you're kinda boned. Even if you sprint, you're getting hit.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Xerek

Rabanastre is a raid, and nothing new. When first released, every stage of each 24-man raid destroyed non-raiders. World of Darkness, Wiping City ("Do not /taunt Happy Fun Ball.")...no, you can't use Rabanastre as an example of casuals going soft, sorry.

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Rabanastre is a step up from Void Ark and little else to any even mildly competent player. The only two bosses even worth a mention at Mateus and Hashmal yet people still manage to mess those up. It's depressing sometimes seeing how you'll out-damage ilvl 320+ DPS players while on a healer. There is no excuse whatsoever when a WHM can out-perform a BLM, RDM and SAM.

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Originally Posted by HoodRat

I know there are people who can excel at tanking/healing and want content that puts a higher emphasis on that rather than dps, but I believe you are overestimating how many people like that exist. In my experience, most tanks/healers who complain about having to dps are the ones that either can't because they aren't good enough at tanking/healing (and they usually don't care about improving because they can still clear content like that) or the ones that just don't even try because, "I'm not a dps," either attitude won't excel when the difficulty gets ramped up.

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I firmly believe part of the underlining problem is how the dev team continuously reduces the difficulty, thus offering little incentive to improve. With few exceptions, Stormblood has severely stepped down its difficulty. Even Savage has reached a point where it's far less interesting. Alte Roite has no business even he labelled Savage. I wouldn't stack him up against Susano EX. It's this constant hand holding that leads to what we have now. If the normal mode equivalents weren't absolute jokes, it could provide a meaningful curve to teach players who do want to improve. Unfortunately, this game has no curve. It jumps from laughably easy to occasionally moderate to extreme.