Red Mage could use some help.

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Originally Posted by Wintersandman

I read this entire thread. So what do Red Mages want specifically? DRK's, MNK's, BLM's, all have said DPS bla bla bla but they have put forth ideas. There are only two ideas I have seen in here one is have embolden affect all damage types and the other is have VerHoly/Fire cause a debuff to boost magic damage or decrease enemy damage done.

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Personally I just want potency buffs. Embolden not having a damage fall off would be great too.
just enough to bring them toe to toe with MCH would put them in a solid spot. Hopefully they could Nerf SMN at the same time. Let BLM be top DPS alongside SAM SE.

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Originally Posted by Zytoryu

Personally I just want potency buffs. Embolden not having a damage fall off would be great too.
just enough to bring them toe to toe with MCH would put them in a solid spot. Hopefully they could Nerf SMN at the same time. Let BLM be top DPS alongside SAM SE.

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Embolden not having falloff by itself probably does the trick, while having it also affect magic users would be a notable buff.

It would up their RDPS from .75% on average (or 1% PDPS) to around 1.4-1.5% which puts it in line with almost everyone else, while the personal buff would be a significant bonus should Manafication allow for two melee combos in that window.

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Originally Posted by Zytoryu

Personally I just want potency buffs. Embolden not having a damage fall off would be great too.
just enough to bring them toe to toe with MCH would put them in a solid spot. Hopefully they could Nerf SMN at the same time. Let BLM be top DPS alongside SAM SE.

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I don't think potency buffs would be a good design decision for RDM. SMN absolutely does not deserve to be nerfed, and as a side note BLM should be above SAM too.

For Red Mage, I don't think you can realistically buff the class until multi rez is dealt with. But if you have to buff the class, I think more OGCD's and more utility is the way to go, rather than raw damage. And maybe making the Melee combo easier to fit into raid buffs like trick attack. Embolden certainly could do with buffs and QoL (allowing other casters to make use of it).

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Originally Posted by HaroldSaxon

I don't think potency buffs would be a good design decision for RDM. SMN absolutely does not deserve to be nerfed, and as a side note BLM should be above SAM too.

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How does SMN not need to be Nerfed? they do literally everything RDM does but better. Much More DPS, more Raid DPS, More Mobility, Raises. A good SMN makes RDM completely mute. the only thing a RDM has over a SMN is being able to raise more than once a minute. but If your in a raid where you have more than 3 deaths a minute its probably to be a wipe anyways. the multi raises only comes in early early progression, soon after your group understands the Mechanics SMN is far far better.

The ease of rdm isn't just how easy it is to pick up and play. Their dps isn't really affected by mechanics because they don't have much a burst phase. You can't always avoid wasting bahamut time during downtime or mechanics. They also are consistently mobile compared to the other caster if you take advantage of both slide-casting and dualcast which loses you even less damage for each fight. If you want a dmg buff then kill dual cast rez and delete vercure. lol maybe they'll nerf potd afterwards. Ignore the guy that said smn doesn't need nerfing tho.

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Originally Posted by Waemliht

If you want a dmg buff then kill dual cast rez and delete vercure.

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Please, tell me why Vercure needs deleted. As it stands, it's nothing more than a RDM's spell in lieu of any damage mitigation like manawall, and most RDM use it purely to have dualcast ready for when a boss returns to the battlefield.

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Originally Posted by Zytoryu

How does SMN not need to be Nerfed? they do literally everything RDM does but better. Much More DPS, more Raid DPS, More Mobility, Raises. A good SMN makes RDM completely mute. the only thing a RDM has over a SMN is being able to raise more than once a minute. but If your in a raid where you have more than 3 deaths a minute its probably to be a wipe anyways. the multi raises only comes in early early progression, soon after your group understands the Mechanics SMN is far far better.

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Because there are still 5 classes better than it. Bard, Ninja, Dragoon, Machinist and Monk.

And SMN doesn't do Raises better. While it does everything else better and does outclass the other casters - its not because its so strong - its because RDM and BLM are weak by comparison.

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Originally Posted by Waemliht

The ease of rdm isn't just how easy it is to pick up and play. Their dps isn't really affected by mechanics because they don't have much a burst phase. You can't always avoid wasting bahamut time during downtime or mechanics. They also are consistently mobile compared to the other caster if you take advantage of both slide-casting and dualcast which loses you even less damage for each fight. If you want a dmg buff then kill dual cast rez and delete vercure. lol maybe they'll nerf potd afterwards. Ignore the guy that said smn doesn't need nerfing tho.

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If you think SMN is overpowered in respect to all DPS classes, then you should be ignored. Along with your questionable analysis of Vercure.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

Please, tell me why Vercure needs deleted. As it stands, it's nothing more than a RDM's spell in lieu of any damage mitigation like manawall, and most RDM use it purely to have dualcast ready for when a boss returns to the battlefield.

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I think he is talking about potd because rdm is only job so far that have soloed floor 200.

Except there is the fact that Bard which has way more utility does more damage as does machinist...
So yes Red Mage needs some minor tweaks and slight buff.
Using verraise as an arguement for a reason to not buff Red Mage does not work

lol, it was a mistake to have mentioned vercure or potd, it was just an afterthought. Vercure's really not worth casting if you're not prepping in downtime, avoid like plague. But if you really want these dmg buffs, I can't see any way but making them 1 rez a minute like everyone else.
This isn't a smn thread but you can't deny that smn's > blm rn.

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Originally Posted by Waemliht

lol, it was a mistake to have mentioned vercure or potd, it was just an afterthought. Vercure's really not worth casting if you're not prepping in downtime, avoid like plague. But if you really want these dmg buffs, I can't see any way but making them 1 rez a minute like everyone else.
This isn't a smn thread but you can't deny that smn's > blm rn.

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I'm with you on verraise. It needs a nerf also because it creates a divide between for-prog and post-prog, where anybody who wants to play RDM is only there for-prog, and if they want to stay efficient with the group they swap to SMN after prog.

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Originally Posted by HaroldSaxon

Because there are still 5 classes better than it. Bard, Ninja, Dragoon, Machinist and Monk.

And SMN doesn't do Raises better. While it does everything else better and does outclass the other casters - its not because its so strong - its because RDM and BLM are weak by comparison.

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https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/17#dataset=90 Are you sure Summoner is outclassed by Monk? Ninja, Bard, Dragoon, and Machinist I can see because of their strong raid presence. but Monk does less DPS than Summoner and brings less. and yes I agree that Casters are currently heavily under powered thanks to Disembowel. but that doesn't mean Summoner gets a free pass to be as over tuned as it is, atleast not without simply buffing RDM and BLM to be on par if not above SMN

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Originally Posted by Zytoryu

https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/17#dataset=90 Are you sure Summoner is outclassed by Monk? Ninja, Bard, Dragoon, and Machinist I can see because of their strong raid presence. but Monk does less DPS than Summoner and brings less. and yes I agree that Casters are currently heavily under powered thanks to Disembowel. but that doesn't mean Summoner gets a free pass to be as over tuned as it is, atleast not without simply buffing RDM and BLM to be on par if not above SMN

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If you look fastest speed kills in o1s there is monk into it.

https://www.fflogs.com/rankings/17#boss=42

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Originally Posted by Maero

Except there is the fact that Bard which has way more utility does more damage as does machinist...
So yes Red Mage needs some minor tweaks and slight buff.
Using verraise as an arguement for a reason to not buff Red Mage does not work

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Bard doesn't do "way more damage". It does have more Raid DPS utility. Machinist does have both. But RedMage's utility of Verraise + Duelcast is absolutely fantastic for progression, and I feel that buffing Red Mage while it has that unique and powerful utility will just create another Ninja situation.

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Originally Posted by Maero

Except there is the fact that Bard which has way more utility does more damage as does machinist...
So yes Red Mage needs some minor tweaks and slight buff.
Using verraise as an arguement for a reason to not buff Red Mage does not work

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Bard doesn't do "way more damage". It does have more Raid DPS utility. Machinist does have both. But RedMage's utility of Verraise + Duelcast is absolutely fantastic for progression, and I feel that buffing Red Mage while it has that unique and powerful utility will just create another Ninja situation.

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Originally Posted by Zytoryu

https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/17#dataset=90 Are you sure Summoner is outclassed by Monk? Ninja, Bard, Dragoon, and Machinist I can see because of their strong raid presence. but Monk does less DPS than Summoner and brings less. and yes I agree that Casters are currently heavily under powered thanks to Disembowel. but that doesn't mean Summoner gets a free pass to be as over tuned as it is, atleast not without simply buffing RDM and BLM to be on par if not above SMN

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Check speedruns. In some fights, it is. If anything, i'd say it kind of proves how well patch 4.1 did for SMN's - it was some good work from SE. Monks are also getting some heavy buffs in 4.2 which will likely tip them over the edge.

The main thing that makes Monks viable is the killtimer. SMN isn't overtuned because there are at least 4 classes that are better than it. Its RDM and BLM that should get buffed to be on par with SMN (when looking at their overall kit, not just looking at raw dps numbers).

Plus, FFlogs overestimates SMN's Dot's so isn't entirely accurate.

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Originally Posted by HaroldSaxon

Check speedruns. In some fights, it is. If anything, i'd say it kind of proves how well patch 4.1 did for SMN's - it was some good work from SE. Monks are also getting some heavy buffs in 4.2 which will likely tip them over the edge.

The main thing that makes Monks viable is the killtimer. SMN isn't overtuned because there are at least 4 classes that are better than it. Its RDM and BLM that should get buffed to be on par with SMN (when looking at their overall kit, not just looking at raw dps numbers)..

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Fair points, but I still feel RedMage should have their personal DPS buffed. to at least be close to Summoner instead of far below them. It would at least make them more interchangeable after progression instead of just always going SMN after the first week or 2 of progression. Then you have one thats safer for progression and you have one thats better for speed kills but both can still be quite viable in either situation.

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Originally Posted by Zytoryu

Fair points, but I still feel RedMage should have their personal DPS buffed. to at least be close to Summoner instead of far below them. It would at least make them more interchangeable after progression instead of just always going SMN after the first week or 2 of progression. Then you have one thats safer for progression and you have one thats better for speed kills but both can still be quite viable in either situation.

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As a design point, I think it would be a little boring to have RedMage have a personal DPS boost. Sure it could work to balance it, but I feel it would be more unique if it had more utility - it would certainly be interesting if that dps utility wasn't centered around burst too.

@Harold if you read what i posted i said Bard has way more utility, i did not say way more damage.. Just the way i worded it i guess
But the issue is jobs that have more utility and do more damage then those with less or no utility.
In the case of blm which does not have utility and smn has a good amount.
I am not saying Red Mage needs a huge buff as it is not horrid buuuut it should be doing at least on par damage with Bard and Machinist or slightly more

embolden needs to buff both physical and magical damage on the target

even if blm dont have real burst windows, just having that "enhanced" embolden, buffing healers burst or other casters in the comp, would be nice and make rdm a tick more valid, .. even if rdm is already valid like hell in prog

I think many would agree with that.
Atm embolden is "ok" but changes like you and others have mentioned would be beneficial

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Originally Posted by Maero

@Harold if you read what i posted i said Bard has way more utility, i did not say way more damage.. Just the way i worded it i guess
But the issue is jobs that have more utility and do more damage then those with less or no utility.
In the case of blm which does not have utility and smn has a good amount.
I am not saying Red Mage needs a huge buff as it is not horrid buuuut it should be doing at least on par damage with Bard and Machinist or slightly more

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I mean, don't know how else you are supposed to take "Except there is the fact that Bard which has way more utility does more damage as does machinist...", but I word things badly too sometimes.

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Originally Posted by HaroldSaxon

I mean, don't know how else you are supposed to take "Except there is the fact that Bard which has way more utility does more damage as does machinist...", but I word things badly too sometimes.

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"the fact that Bard, which has way more utility, does more damage. As does machinist."

Is probably how the punctuation would be used to clarify.

RDM was very strong at beginning and then scaled very bad with the tiers of gear. I bet it now will get even worse and RDM gets more and more behind.
I hope SE will realize at some time that this is not fair and can not stay as it is.

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Originally Posted by TelosNox

I bet it now will get even worse and RDM gets more and more behind.
I hope SE will realize at some time that this is not fair and can not stay as it is what they are actually doing at all with their caster cls'.

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RDM wont fall behind with current caster-buff/nerf infos... at least not with 4.2 ^^'

75% Percentile of Omega Savage
SMN is currently at 4890DPS. Patch will nerf SMN about 2%, so still about 4800DPS + Utility
BLM is currently at 4577DPS. Patch will buff about 4%, so still about 4760DPS. Still behind SMN and no Utility
RMD is currently at 4300DPS and will get not changes. Worst DPS of ALL Dps Jobs with weaker Utility than SMN. And the Utility is still not even worth the 450DPS RDM is behind BLM (it effectively is only embolden).

I don't see any reason to bring a RDM into my Raidgroup. I would ever ever prefer any other Dps Job.

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Originally Posted by TelosNox

I don't see any reason to bring a RDM into my Raidgroup. I would ever ever prefer any other Dps Job.

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well but thats, without being offensive, a situation RDMs have to face and most probably will face 4ever - their spot won't be an endgame dps cls. their potential shines in other aspects more than any other cls... progress, solo content, potd, map-dngs etc. And please don't restart the discussion if dualcast+verraise+vercure is weaker than devotion+con/radiant. There are enough threads discussing this matter and show that you actually can't compare their utility because they shine in different situations and tasks. (progress vs. farm)

Last point (a very personal one) is if you like to play RDM in raids just do it - don't be a worrier be a warrior. You don't have to be top end to have fun... ingame neither on pve nor at endgame/raids. Until now every Savage content was doable with every cls, yeah even ultimate – so give a shit bout statistics and numbers and just play what you like to play. If your mates have a problem with that... you don't have to look for another cls, you should look for new mates instead. but thats just me...

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Originally Posted by Neela

if you like to play RDM in raids just do it - don't be a worrier be a warrior.

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yeah.... try to say that to the one that tell you "no rdm thx" when asking for party... "Oh dont be a worrie, be a warrior! Cause i want to have fun, let me join your party please"....

In a single player game point of view your comment is more than welcome. But come on, in a mmorpg? No... just no... If you make a dps, you have to make it in a way that he can challenge for spots with the other dps too

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Originally Posted by Neela

Last point (a very personal one) is if you like to play RDM in raids just do it - don't be a worrier be a warrior. You don't have to be top end to have fun... ingame neither on pve nor at endgame/raids. Until now every Savage content was doable with every cls, yeah even ultimate – so give a shit bout statistics and numbers and just play what you like to play. If your mates have a problem with that... you don't have to look for another cls, you should look for new mates instead. but thats just me...

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When UCOB came out I looked for a static for a solid 2 and a half months as an RDM, over the course of those two Months I received two offers, both of which demanded I played Ninja or Summoner. I would happily still play RedMage regardless of what happens to it balance wise, But when you can't even get past step one (Finding a group) because the Job you wish to play as is bastardized and seen only as viable for a few weeks of progression, Thats when something needs to change.

if u based your main char on pf-demands its actually your own fault q.q – progress and in best case farming should be done with friends/fc/static first, and if you can't play the cls you like in that setup its not the fault of the devs but of people which are kinda ego. Rdms won't lose their spot, they will always be interesting with every new raid-tier patch, no matter how well other cls perform - they will have their spot for progression with every new content, thats how it is. :'/

"That's just how it is" is a really poor argument for relegating a class to progression every patch.

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Originally Posted by PrismaticDaybreak

"That's just how it is" is a really poor argument for relegating a class to progression every patch.

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at least RDMs place seems to have a defined spot and identity... u can't say that about current smn/blm state – which are more a dev-toy to play "how can we fuck up caster cls this time?" ^^'

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Originally Posted by Neela

at least RDMs place seems to have a defined spot and identity... u can't say that about current smn/blm state – which are more a dev-toy to play "how can we fuck up caster cls this time?" ^^'

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A poorly defined spot isn't much worth it. Neither is the identity of 'progression babysitter' particularly enjoyable. I didn't say SMN or BLM didn't have issues, frankly all casters have issues. We need to stop the pointless 'who has it better of the people who have it the worst' game and start focusing more on how we can get the devs attention better. Although a 100+ page thread apparently wasn't enough for them to think BLM needed more significant buffs.

they are actually totally lost in caster syngergy/balancing for sure... Blm is totally out of order while current smn is for farm and rdm for progression - im not sure how they can ever balance them off in an equal way. I liked the early HW while they seperate Blm & Smn in ST & AOE "kings" - running dngs and/or 24 raids with both of them in one grp was just awesome and fun. with rdm as support/progress-dps cls there is a 3rd spot to line up strict identitys for all 3 of them....

...but instead the only thing which seems clear in the current state is an untouched Rdm for prog & solo content... facing 2 mates who totally lost anything they stand for in the chaos of adjusting/balancing....

RDM is fine it's super easy to learn and play good.
Ranged classes is also easier doing mechanics on compared to say a melee dps.
This game doesnt even have hard dps anymore like gordias did.
You can pretty much save the healers from ever having to ress with a rdm in the grp.
Embolden could be buffed abit i guess thats it.

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Originally Posted by snipski

RDM is fine it's super easy to learn and play good.
Ranged classes is also easier doing mechanics on compared to say a melee dps.
This game doesnt even have hard dps anymore like gordias did.
You can pretty much save the healers from ever having to ress with a rdm in the grp.
Embolden could be buffed abit i guess thats it.

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Alright I'll cover the bullet points for you.

1. Ease of gameplay shouldn't and for the most part doesn't affect balancing a job. (Said before by Yoshi-P in a producer live letter) RDM isn't fine, it has less damage, rDPS, and utility than Bard.
2. Flatly untrue, if anything melee/ranged physical have the easiest time dealing with mechanics as they don't have cast times aside from SAM's Iaijustsu not to mention there are specific mechanics that target ranged players.
3. Fair.
4. And that's only the case if your group has 4+ deaths per minute which gimps the RDMs damage for the rest of the fight.
5. Embolden does need to be buffed, the damage restriction needs to be removed and the actual numbers should be improved.


After that, RDM needs a personal damage buff as it has less raid DPS contribution than bard and lower personal damage while Bard has solid offensive and defensive utility, it needs Verraise to have modest cooldown (15-30 seconds) so we can stop being balanced around a stupid niche use.

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Originally Posted by Neela

they are actually totally lost in caster syngergy/balancing for sure... Blm is totally out of order while current smn is for farm and rdm for progression - im not sure how they can ever balance them off in an equal way. I liked the early HW while they seperate Blm & Smn in ST & AOE "kings" - running dngs and/or 24 raids with both of them in one grp was just awesome and fun. with rdm as support/progress-dps cls there is a 3rd spot to line up strict identitys for all 3 of them....

...but instead the only thing which seems clear in the current state is an untouched Rdm for prog & solo content... facing 2 mates who totally lost anything they stand for in the chaos of adjusting/balancing....

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Those are all really meh identities to base a class off of, each one should be decent for each of those categories with maybe a slight advantage to each one. Each one should be competitive in any end game content. And tbh dungeons and 24 man raids are trivial enough I'd really rather they not take balancing inspiration from either of those.

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Originally Posted by PrismaticDaybreak

Those are all really meh identities to base a class off of, each one should be decent for each of those categories with maybe a slight advantage to each one. Each one should be competitive in any end game content. And tbh dungeons and 24 man raids are trivial enough I'd really rather they not take balancing inspiration from either of those.

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sad to to read another "raid only" opinion again... cls design is NOT only about endgame I wonder why people think their demands for endgame is the non-plus ultra and the only thing what matters... if you take in consideration that just 10% of the com is activ in any kind of forum and half of these 10% are endgame/hardcore raider - the majority of the com isn't kinda elite. Jobs also have to be enjoyable in pve, 24 raids and dng runs - cause this is what most of the com do most of the time. That being said single target, aoe and support are 3 different routes which can clearly make a point.

And to be fair each one is competitive in endgame, its just one is more powerful and stays in the spotlight (lets see how it change with the patch) more than the other ones - but both of the other once can do every content as well - its just not that easy. So how would you balance the 3 of them without making them all the same in mechanic and feel? im really curious bout your idea... ^^

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Originally Posted by Neela

sad to to read another "raid only" opinion again... cls design is NOT only about endgame I wonder why people think their demands for endgames is the non-plus ultra and the only thing what matters... if you take in consideration that just 10% of the com is aktiv in any kind of forum and half of these 10% are endgame/hardcore raider - the majority of the com isn't kinda elite. Jobs also have to be enjoyable in pve, 24 raids and dng runs - cause this is what most of the com do most of the time. That being said single target, aoe and support are 3 different routes which can clearly make a point.

And to be fair each one is competitive in endgame, its just one is more powerful and stays in the spotlight (lets see how it change with the patch) more than the other ones - but both of the other once can do every content as well - its just not that easy. So how would you balance the 3 of them without making them all the same in mechanic and feel? im really curious bout your idea... ^^

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End game raiding is the only part where intricate class balance actually matters. No, the only caster that was remotely competitive among all classes which is more important than this caster war you keep wanting to continue was SMN and only because their damage was overtuned enough to make the DRG+BRD+MCH synergy less important. Casters need to be competitive among the other classes. Instead we have our 'support' caster which has weaker support, damage, and mobility than both of the ranged physical DPS classes. A 'no utility high damage' caster that gets outclassed by the fact that its damage isn't sufficient enough to break the previously mentioned meta and a 'mild utility, mild damage' caster that again, has only broken the current end game meta because its damage was overtuned. I'm not saying the other content doesn't matter at all, it's just that it's not as relevant as far as balancing is concerned because the other content isn't rigorous enough for parties to justify not taking specific jobs.

As far as ST, AoE, and support, each class needs to have a use in each category or they have to excel only at that category enough to make a difference. Now take into account that all raid encounters are single target and the AoE job is no longer usable there because why bother. The support and ST class now have to vie for a spot in which either the support has to have enough useful support to make up for the fact that its ST dps is going to be lower. There should be a justifiable reason to take any job to end game raids at any point along progression. And for the most part if a job is performing well in the most serious end game content it will perform well in the less taxing content.

Basically the only reason you would take any caster at this point is because they have Raise, one of which has a disproportionate amount of access to it and one that has the same as healers do, now throw in the fact that one does significantly more damage than the other and gets gimped far less for using it. And then Black Mage doesn't have Raise and not enough DPS to justify its stark lack of utility.

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Originally Posted by PrismaticDaybreak

End game raiding is the only part where intricate class balance actually matters.

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well than... i feel sorry for you – but to cut it off: RDM most probably will always stay in the supporter/progression role no matter how much the com will cry. They won't be dumb enough to cause the current situation a 2nd time, trying to pimp them along with both of the other burst-caster. Why should they make it even more complicated than it is with 2 aggressive once - I highly doubt they will, progression-dps is a clear set position RDM fills in a very well way nobody can question this fact. ^^'

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Originally Posted by Neela

well than go ahead crying... :o

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Hardly a surprising response from some casual EU player who can barely articulate their thoughts and whose response to balance concerns is, "Go find a different party lol"

Good job editing your post not to sound like an arse.

Yet somehow they were able to balance 3 melee DPS against each other easily and there's a reason to take any of them without giving one of them the stupidly useless title of 'progression melee DPS'. They can do it, they're just so hesitant to do it with casters for some unknown reason. No you can't question that RDM fills a progression niche very well, that's the problem. RDM has way too much access to Raise and it's keeping them from being balanced well.

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Originally Posted by PrismaticDaybreak

Hardly a surprising response from some casual EU player who can barely articulate their thoughts and whose response to balance concerns is, "Go find a different party lol"

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actually it was a response from a casual view on raiders egoism ^^