A detailed Reaction to Warrior in SB

I guess I'm an old-timer in XIV, because everyone else is looking at HP steal on Steel Cyclone like "that's weird" and I'm looking at it like "wait they put that back on it from 1.23??"

I like that change.

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Originally Posted by InfiniDragon

I guess I'm an old-timer in XIV, because everyone else is looking at HP steal on Steel Cyclone like "that's weird" and I'm looking at it like "wait they put that back on it from 1.23??"

I like that change.

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Same. It's a good start, as long as it's at least IB "portion" and not "path" portion. And also as long as they don't stop here, of course~

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Originally Posted by Launched

I really don't think these changes fixed WAR at all. The stance swap changes will make it feel better to play, but apart from that we got almost nothing. The IR change means 2 more Onslaughts every 2 minutes inside IR+Berserk, which seems like it'll be a very small DPS increase, and the 20 potency to Path is incredibly small especially when the optimal rotation (Eye>Path >BB>Path, I think?) only uses Path half the time. Steel Cyclone at ~25% is just stupid, because we can use 3 per pull max if we save up to 100 gauge on the previous pull/boss.

WAR dps will still be nearly identical to PLD while having 0 utility, so I still don't think I can justify doing Savage as WAR instead of a second PLD.

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Also pretty much absolutely agreeing with you. None of the issues to the core of the class are solved, it's still useless but at least it's not Literally Unplayable. Progress sorta.

I really don't think these changes fixed WAR at all. The stance swap changes will make it feel better to play, but apart from that we got almost nothing. The IR change means 2 more Onslaughts every 2 minutes inside IR+Berserk, which seems like it'll be a very small DPS increase, and the 20 potency to Path is incredibly small especially when the optimal rotation (Eye>Path >BB>Path, I think?) only uses Path half the time. Steel Cyclone at ~25% is just stupid, because we can use 3 per pull max if we save up to 100 gauge on the previous pull/boss.

WAR dps will still be nearly identical to PLD while having 0 utility, so I still don't think I can justify doing Savage as WAR instead of a second PLD.

And... Nothing on Shake it Off?

I agree for the most part. The self-heal on steel cyclone isn't a solution to make unchained more valuable. Basically it's like they are saying "Sorry for messing that up, here's a self heal on steel cyclone"

The self-heal on SC is cool, don't get me wrong. Just everyone was asking they do something with Un/IR. Well, I guess they did by removing gauge cost.

Its a step forward to our return to HP gained through attack mitigation. I'm guessing they just don't want us to be able to spam it like we were doing with overpower during bloodbath. The only problem I have with this is that it does not help us at all in regards to Bosses. Unchained is still our weakest link for level 70 content... There's so many things they could do with that skill and its being wasted as a defiance penalty remover.

There's 2 ways they could make the skill useful again:
-Make it not share a cooldown with Inner Release.
-Make it the Go to Emergency skill for defiance, in that you are currently Main tanking and a situation has turned for the worse / you are unable to switch to deliverance for the added DPS from using inner release. This implies that they continue to share a cooldown.

I'm back after being suspended lol what'd I miss in "WAR is the best tank now, PLD is useless" land?

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Originally Posted by Tegernako

I'm back after being suspended lol what'd I miss in "WAR is the best tank now, PLD is useless" land?

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Oh is that what happened.

...Suddenly things make a lot of sense.

You've missed nothing. A few people resting on their laurels but mostly people agreeing that it's not enough for Warrior and that drk needs more.

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Originally Posted by Umbeliel

Oh is that what happened.

...Suddenly things make a lot of sense.

You've missed nothing. A few people resting on their laurels but mostly people agreeing that it's not enough for Warrior and that drk needs more.

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Yep, I was suspended. I called someone a liar in a blunt way and they reported me out of spite and I got suspended for two weeks.

Although I admit I'm curious as to what makes sense now?

As for WAR, I agree with you. The changes were good, I enjoy playing WAR again, but it still has zero utility which needs to change.

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Originally Posted by Tegernako

Yep, I was suspended. I called someone a liar in a blunt way and they reported me out of spite and I got suspended for two weeks.

Although I admit I'm curious as to what makes sense now?

As for WAR, I agree with you. The changes were good, I enjoy playing WAR again, but it still has zero utility which needs to change.

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In the forums people sort of come in waves, it seems? Like after every couple of weeks it starts seeming like the general population starts agreeing on whatever topic(Like say, Warrior being bad.) but then everyone who was in support of it just like... disappears. And a new group of people appear and take their place and we're back at step one because they're happy with things as is.

I'm just thinking maybe the people who are the most likely to complain about things they care about are also the most likely to wind up getting banned, maybe.

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Originally Posted by Umbeliel

In the forums people sort of come in waves, it seems? Like after every couple of weeks it starts seeming like the general population starts agreeing on whatever topic(Like say, Warrior being bad.) but then everyone who was in support of it just like... disappears. And a new group of people appear and take their place and we're back at step one because they're happy with things as is.

I'm just thinking maybe the people who are the most likely to complain about things they care about are also the most likely to wind up getting banned, maybe.

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Oh I don't doubt that. After weeks of WAR/DRK players complaining and some PLD players downplaying after the patch it was mostly (actually before the patch) PLD players saying they were going to be trash.

Still is kind of the mood, though it's mixed with most ppl seeming to agree DRK is in the worst place and some people thinking WAR is fine/not fine.

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Originally Posted by Tegernako

Some people thinking WAR is fine/not fine.

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I think this is because (my own opinion) warrior works in current content. However, it's daft dps windows (rigid/long/setup) could use some work. Also should do more dps than the other 2 to fit design mantra for the class and the lack of utility we have.

On utility point, shake it off rework will happen, but one utility ability won't make up for the sheer amount on PLD. But that's fine, just give us dps instead. Same mantra as every class - less utility means more deeps.

So I would say it works, but isn't fine. If that makes sense :)

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Originally Posted by Paiyne

I think this is because (my own opinion) warrior works in current content. However, it's daft dps windows (rigid/long/setup) could use some work. Also should do more dps than the other 2 to fit design mantra for the class and the lack of utility we have.

On utility point, shake it off rework will happen, but one utility ability won't make up for the sheer amount on PLD. But that's fine, just give us dps instead. Same mantra as every class - less utility means more deeps.

So I would say it works, but isn't fine. If that makes sense :)

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You're probably right, but I really don't want to be a dps bot lol

I would really like to see some utility in the warriors kit as well as a buff or change to shake it off. it would be nice if onslaught cost TP or was even free as well cause it feels weird wasting our beast gauge to use it. Can we please have bloodbath back too?

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Originally Posted by Umbeliel

You're probably right, but I really don't want to be a dps bot lol

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WARs have always been DPS bots though?

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Originally Posted by Kyrph

it would be nice if onslaught cost TP or was even free as well cause it feels weird wasting our beast gauge to use it.

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I'll disagree. A BG cost means you aren't gonna use it if you don't need to use a gap closer, meaning it'll always be up to bring you into the fight when you need to close distance. Every second you spend not in melee is a big dps loss. In addition, if you use it while buffed by Berserk, with or without IR, it becomes a stronger move then Fell Cleave. It feels pretty natural to me.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

I'll disagree. A BG cost means you aren't gonna use it if you don't need to use a gap closer, meaning it'll always be up to bring you into the fight when you need to close distance. Every second you spend not in melee is a big dps loss. In addition, if you use it while buffed by Berserk, with or without IR, it becomes a stronger move then Fell Cleave. It feels pretty natural to me.

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I did not understand any of this. I didn't say anything about gap closer and since it cost beast gauge you can't use it to engage anyway. It is not stronger than fell cleave even if you buff it with berserk. If it cost tp you could use it freely when it is off cd even if you are in mele since its off the gcd so it would only makes the ability easier to use since WAR never runs out of TP and I could use the beast gauge for the other abilities. If you know a certain fight you know when you will need it to get back into boss range after dodging so I don't think it would change that as well. What exactly are you disagreeing with? Sorry maybe Im reading your post wrong or you worded it weirdly.

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Originally Posted by Kyrph

Snip.

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Basically, while you can't use Onslaught to engage, which is the only point it falls short for me, there are still bosses that either summon adds or that require you to break off to dodge AoEs/reposition, what have you. If it didn't cost BG, you'd just use Ons on CD and wind up losing DPS in the long run because you'd have to waste precious seconds running to and from the boss like an overworked Uber. It's also stronger then FC when buffed because of how Beast works. FC takes a GCD and doesn't build BG when used, so even at its worst (HS GCD traded for FC), you're only gaining 350 potency for 50 gauge and delaying your next beast gain by two GCDs. Someone else can probably explain it better than me, since in many ways SAM/WAR gauges are identical, but explanations are not my forte.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

I think saying it's stronger than fell cleave is a bit misleading, it's not ever going to hit as hard, so that statement (I believe) is simply based off potency per BG.

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It is, yes. Apologies if that part wasn't clear.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

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Oh I get what you are saying now. I guess I understand but a lot of mechanics such as summoning adds and doing AoEs are scripted in most fights so having knowledge of that could correct the ability being off CD at those times. But there are times where you had just used your BG in order to use a defensive or just doing damage where you don't have the 20 BG to actually use the ability when you might need it if I wanting to argue my side of it which has happened. It would shift BG management to just managing the CD which would overall be better for the WAR and a damage increase.

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Originally Posted by Kyrph

I did not understand any of this. I didn't say anything about gap closer and since it cost beast gauge you can't use it to engage anyway. It is not stronger than fell cleave even if you buff it with berserk. If it cost tp you could use it freely when it is off cd even if you are in mele since its off the gcd so it would only makes the ability easier to use since WAR never runs out of TP and I could use the beast gauge for the other abilities. If you know a certain fight you know when you will need it to get back into boss range after dodging so I don't think it would change that as well. What exactly are you disagreeing with? Sorry maybe Im reading your post wrong or you worded it weirdly.

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I think saying it's stronger than fell cleave is a bit misleading, it's not ever going to hit as hard, so that statement (I believe) is simply based off potency per BG.

That being said, it does kind of suck you can't use it to engage (outside of dungeons where you have leftover/pre-built gauge), but I don't find the BG cost prohibitive necessarily. The CD is short enough to usable when needed to close a gap, and with so much time between berserk windows you end up using it fairly often anyways to keep from overcapping on gauge.

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Originally Posted by Kyrph

I didn't say anything about gap closer and since it cost beast gauge you can't use it to engage anyway. It is not stronger than fell cleave even if you buff it with berserk. If it cost tp you could use it freely when it is off cd even if you are in mele since its off the gcd so it would only makes the ability easier to use since WAR never runs out of TP and I could use the beast gauge for the other abilities.

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1. Most gap-closers aren't used to open a fight (i.e. to "engage"). Engage skills are meant to decrease the time between when the tank first pulls and when everyone else first hits. A tank teleporting to the enemy is counterintuitive, and slightly decreases the raid DPS dealt over the duration of the fight.

2. If Onslaught cost TP, yet Warrior TP were infinite, it would effectively cost nothing. Even if their TP were not "infinite", it would still remain free damage obliged to be used on cooldown, thereby hampering Warrior's freedom of movement.

3. Onslaught IS a DPS gain in certain circumstances. Apart from those it is only a slightest DPS loss, even if you exclude the bonus to uptime it can bring (which can very well give DPS by using it as... a gap closer). The skill is incredibly well balanced for a low-CD gap closer that doesn't oblige you to use it on cooldown (thereby wasting its purpose as a gap closer). There is scarcely a better tuned ability in this game than Onslaught.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

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I don't really think getting to the boss quicker would be dps lost at all really. With most countdowns the boss will be pulled at the same time no matter what and not have to reposition the boss the few steps it took when you engaged would actually be a dps increase.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

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I went over this on my last post but having knowledge of a fight easily fixes the problem of having it off CD when you need it since most fights are scripted and can account for when you would need it. So it would just change for some fight where it would help the warrior. Sometimes you use a BG ability and don't have the resources to use the ability when you might need to dodge or use the gap closer. So it shifts from BG management to managing its CD. If anything this just lets you use the ability more and would be nice for single target fights when I want to stay in my dps stance and get some free threat. This answers 3 as well.

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Originally Posted by Tegernako

Yes I wanted to comment more on DRK (Specially the lack of OGCD's, the nerfed self healing, and some other strange changes like dark dance being gone and delirum the combo being removed making it have less utility, among other things) but since I don't have it at 70 (64 right now) I didn't want to comment to much on things I hadn't personally experienced. (and I don't even understand in the slightest, quietus. It seems so useless especially with a blood cost of 50)That being said, DRK suffers from a lot of faults IMO with the few team utilities is has being its only saving grace from (imo) being worse then WAR.

And I don't mean to act like the issues we face are any worse then yours, just that from a utility standpoint DRK still has some benefits! We really need to band together to make our voices heard for both classes!

On a side note, as for why I say IMO in front of like everything, it's so people can't go "OMG STOP ACTING LIKE WHAT YOU SAY IS A FACT!" because apparently if I don't add a disclaimer before everything, people get to ignore what I say because I said it like it was a fact.

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Just ran into you in-game. Small world.

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Originally Posted by Falar

Just ran into you in-game. Small world.

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Yep and since then my opinion on DRK has sunk even lower, especially since they addressed one of the core issues with WAR right now with stance dancing penalty being gone.

Also I'm glad you dropped in to say hi!

I really enjoyed our talk.

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Originally Posted by Tegernako

Yep and since then my opinion on DRK has sunk even lower, especially since they addressed one of the core issues with WAR right now with stance dancing penalty being gone.

Also I'm glad you dropped in to say hi!

I really enjoyed our talk.

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When you referenced this thread, I thought to myself " surely I responded on pg 2 or 3....." and lo and behold.

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Originally Posted by Falar

When you referenced this thread, I thought to myself " surely I responded on pg 2 or 3....." and lo and behold.

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Haha when I saw your avatar on the forums I was like, I think i've seen them before but I odn't know for sure lol

This seriously makes it even crazier that we met each other. What are the chances?

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Originally Posted by Kyrph

I don't really think getting to the boss quicker would be dps lost at all really. With most countdowns the boss will be pulled at the same time no matter what and not have to reposition the boss the few steps it took when you engaged would actually be a dps increase.



I went over this on my last post but having knowledge of a fight easily fixes the problem of having it off CD when you need it since most fights are scripted and can account for when you would need it. So it would just change for some fight where it would help the warrior. Sometimes you use a BG ability and don't have the resources to use the ability when you might need to dodge or use the gap closer. So it shifts from BG management to managing its CD. If anything this just lets you use the ability more and would be nice for single target fights when I want to stay in my dps stance and get some free threat. This answers 3 as well.

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1. Except most times you want the boss nearer to the center of the dungeon than its starting position, and nearer to your raid during the pull itself. The time spent putting it back costs no DPS; melee can follow it in with no interruption to positionals. The half second longer by which melee cannot reach it does cost DPS. And if you want it to stay almost exactly in place, you need only Sprint.

2. Except you then turn it into something of the likeness of Plunge and Shoulder Tackle. The intended maximum DPS of MNK and DRK will account for the skill being used on CD. When it is not, you fall below. Perhaps not noticeably, granted, but why make it so your maximum DPS is penalized for saving a skill when right now the skill's use, apart from tuning to windows (Berserk, Inner Release, Infuriate) and enmity, is not so constricted? It's an unnecessary nerf, to both maximum DPS in fights that would require its CD to be saved and to the Warrior's depth and freedom. If Warrior is objectively underpowered right now, there are plenty of other ways to make up for that than messing with so well-tuned an ability.

Onslaught is beautiful as is! If you need to change something, change something else.

Onslaught needs to be a resource generator, not a resource user.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Onslaught needs to be a resource generator, not a resource user.

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We already have a resource generator, Infuriate. No thanks.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Onslaught needs to be a resource generator, not a resource user.

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We need a gauge dump to properly manage it and that's the main use of Onslaught really.
The skill is just fine as it is. Maybe a potency increase to 120 would be nice.

I would have loved a dump costing 10 or 30 Beast gauge.

Having only onslaught to manage beast gauge means the most I can do is pushing one BB or SE combo away my 100 BG. But if berserk/IR are slightly more than 3 GCD away, I end up wasting ressources like a moron :(.

Does anyone else have an issue with Infuriate not being able to be activated even while in battle or is it just me?

I have mixed feelings about WAR. On the one hand, the jobs burst phase is amazing and I love pulling off all that stuff, so the lack of cost on IR/UC is really nice! On the other... the lack of stance swap cost means I'm basically a demigod again and I don't really have to think about what I'm doing or plan ahead. It's awesome to see 20k+ FC crits back to back during IR, but outside the burst I struggle to not autopilot.

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Originally Posted by Tegernako

Does anyone else have an issue with Infuriate not being able to be activated even while in battle or is it just me?

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You need to be registered on some type of aggro table to be considered in combat. The reason your infuriate is unavailable is because you haven't generated enough aggro to even be on the aggro table, like if there are 100+ people attacking a hunt. Do a BB combo and you should be ok.

You'll also notice this when you pull a boss or something, depending on how quickly the aggro table refreshes, you sometimes have to mash infuriate right after engaging.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

I have mixed feelings about WAR. On the one hand, the jobs burst phase is amazing and I love pulling off all that stuff, so the lack of cost on IR/UC is really nice! On the other... the lack of stance swap cost means I'm basically a demigod again and I don't really have to think about what I'm doing or plan ahead. It's awesome to see 20k+ FC crits back to back during IR, but outside the burst I struggle to not autopilot.

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The thing is, in terms of game design, the BG cost for swapping made absolutely no sense and had to go.

As opposed to DRK and PLD, the BG is required for 6 (formerly 8) skills, whereas 4 of those are weapon skills. It was needlessly punishing and unnecessarily raised the skill ceiling in a patch where SqEx wanted to simplify things. And to top it off, well planned and proper use of IR and the BG did not reward you with more DPS or better mitigation for your team, it just put you on par with what the other 2 tanks were doing for DPS, something that is still the case.

I dont see the removal of the BG cost as a bad thing, and it did not make WAR "overpowered".

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Originally Posted by MauvaisOeil

I would have loved a dump costing 10 or 30 Beast gauge.

Having only onslaught to manage beast gauge means the most I can do is pushing one BB or SE combo away my 100 BG. But if berserk/IR are slightly more than 3 GCD away, I end up wasting ressources like a moron :(.

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One idea I've heard is to add 5 BG to Heavy Swing, Tomahawk, and Overpower, increase the Infuriate trait to 6s each from 5s or have it likewise affect RI/UC to boost the 50-BG spenders' value, and then decrease the BG cost of Onslaught to 15 and its potency to 80 or 90 (a 6.67 increase to efficiency, making it on par with current FC when including the trait effects, to a 20% increase to efficiency, about on par with FC given the above Infuriate effects). Then you could trim at 15, 20, 30, or 35, instead of solely multiples of 20 (granted, Upheaval will already be used basically on CD, so it's not exactly adding freedom). I'd have to see how that affects windows though. That's an additional .694 BG/s at a 2.4 GCD or 1.66 BG/GCD, and would accelerate IR-Zerk by 1-2 GCDs. The trait change would certainly raise DPS potential by a fair bit, but would also adjust windows in a potentially clunky window. Will be seeing how it'd all fit once servers are back up.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

I have mixed feelings about WAR. On the one hand, the jobs burst phase is amazing and I love pulling off all that stuff, so the lack of cost on IR/UC is really nice! It's awesome to see 20k+ FC crits back to back during IR, but outside the burst I struggle to not autopilot.

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This is pretty well how it feels for me, too. I feel like I might be a little more involved if I had to count Onslaughts or whatnot between bursts, or had more reason to swap in (e.g. a decoupled Unchained), but it feels like the class really goes to sleep once the Inner Release does.

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Originally Posted by Felorr

You need to be registered on some type of aggro table to be considered in combat. The reason your infuriate is unavailable is because you haven't generated enough aggro to even be on the aggro table, like if there are 100+ people attacking a hunt. Do a BB combo and you should be ok.

You'll also notice this when you pull a boss or something, depending on how quickly the aggro table refreshes, you sometimes have to mash infuriate right after engaging.

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this is the dumbest thing I've read all day. SE really did that? Wow lol

But tbf, I have gone an entire hunt doing aggro combos and still not seen it activate. Even when I switch stances or go to a different monster it still won't activate. I have to turn stances of completely to get it to work.

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Originally Posted by Tegernako

this is the dumbest thing I've read all day. SE really did that? Wow lol

But tbf, I have gone an entire hunt doing aggro combos and still not seen it activate. Even when I switch stances or go to a different monster it still won't activate. I have to turn stances of completely to get it to work.

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I'd imagine the 30+ other White Mages spamming Medica 2 and Cure 3 are pushing everyone off the aggro table by lightyears. :L

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Originally Posted by FallenWings

I'd imagine the 30+ other White Mages spamming Medica 2 and Cure 3 are pushing everyone off the aggro table by lightyears. :L

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I def see the aggro hit yellow or orange. I basically spam aggro combos because aggro in hunts gets you a lot of credit. There are times when I've gotten the MT role and it still hasn't let me activate it.

Next time it happens I'll take a video and file a bug report.

Theres nothing good about Warrior at all, there I said it fight me irl.