Summoner Over-Nered (and A few other Problems)

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Originally Posted by Exterium

This is like talking to a wall...

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I could say the same thing to you. But you have no idea what you are talking about.

And I've looked at overall dps. A bard's dots have no cast time. Miasma 3 has a cast time. Bard's dots have more potency overall 570 + 670 compared to Summoner's 400 and 450. Your dot's tick harder (100 potency vs Summoner's 80). Bard's dots are so strong they still outdamage Summoner's dots if I use shadow flare.

Summoner's strongest spammable spell is Ruin 3. It is 150 potency and we can cast it 9 times before we run out of mana. It is the same potency as Heavy shot. How many times can you use heavy shot before you are out of tp? (Just making a point. I'm well aware of how dreadwyrm works.)

Oh and Refulgent Arrow and Ruin 4 work almost the exact same way except Summoner's get a 15% chance to use ruin 4 which does 200 potency while bard gets a 20% chance to do 300 potency.

With Barrage and Emp arrow you get 690 potency attack every 90 seconds that can crit for all three strikes. You can use this immediately at the start of a fight. Summoner can't even use ahk morn's 680 potency until we have built up all the aetherflow (takes two minutes)

Pitch perfect even does more damage then death flare does at 3 stacks. Pitch perfect 420 potency vs Deathflare's 400. Bard arguably even beats summoner's Aoe attacks as Summoner has no spammable Aoe move. Every Aoe Summoner has is either on a minute cooldown (Shadowflare, Aetherflow, Radiant Shield Technically since it can hit more then one add) Two Minute cooldown (Ahk morn) or three minute cooldown* (Enkindle). So tell me again... How does a bard with no cast times, stronger dots, higher mobility and stronger attacks not outdps summoner in almost every way?

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Originally Posted by Ariomi

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Tin foil hat time, but I'm wondering if this combined with the way SCH has been handled is a way to try and get everyone off SMN/SCH so they [SE] can split it with less community backlash? I know, it's conspiracy theorycrafting to the max, but still, it makes you wonder. Especially with how they have mentioned they wanted to split the job off so it's not 2 jobs bound to a single class.

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Originally Posted by Paladinleeds

Tin foil hat time, but I'm wondering if this combined with the way SCH has been handled is a way to try and get everyone off SMN/SCH so they [SE] can split it with less community backlash? I know, it's conspiracy theorycrafting to the max, but still, it makes you wonder. Especially with how they have mentioned they wanted to split the job off so it's not 2 jobs bound to a single class.

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They have had the longest time to accomplish this. If they wanted to do just that, Why didn't they split if before storm blood? Red Mage and Samurai where in Uldah. They could have easily split summoner and Scholar entirely. Just have them be two separate classes in the Arc guild. If they wanted to do that, I don't get why they haven't.

I'm loving SMN right now specially having this Bahamut thingy.

I wouldn't mind getting miasma 2 back

Actually, currently Smn is just behind Samurai in the way of Dps. This is the chart of all the dps jobs that been parsed http://ft.trillian.im/efc29cb18654c5...Uk3tV3breQ.jpg

also a video of a Smn destroying a SSS dummy. Link

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Originally Posted by Bigcat9715

Actually, currently Smn is just behind Samurai in the way of Dps. This is the chart of all the dps jobs that been parsed http://ft.trillian.im/efc29cb18654c5...Uk3tV3breQ.jpg

also a video of a Smn destroying a SSS dummy. Link

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"But they're too weak, 'cause "potency loss", we know better."

So... how come they only seem to be able to do that... on target dummys.... not actual combat.

Because the parces talked about here Ariomi... are indeed real. And I've seen it too.

Not to mention the other threads linked here with other SMNs on the last page reporting the same things. No wonder people are leaving this job in large numbers.

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Originally Posted by Bigcat9715

Actually, currently Smn is just behind Samurai in the way of Dps. ]

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And yet, As an Ilvl 296 Summoner, using almost that same rotation, I can't beat the dummy for the Menagerie. A fight I've already cleared.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lS6x8Gy-DwM

Here's a video of My rotation on an ilevel 280 dummy.

The Menagerie. IF you see something that I am doing wrong that is preventing me from beating a fight I'm 16 Ilvl over. I would love to be enlightened about how I should fix my opener.

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Originally Posted by Ariomi

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Why are you comparing two jobs while purposefully leaving these aside:
- The pet sustained damage (!)
- Aetherflow usage (Fester is 900 potency in 15s every minute)
- Ruination+DWT buff
- Deathflare
- Demi-Bahamut 160 potency hits every 1.5s
- Akh Morn hits twice (meaning 2 times per 120s, while "Barrage and Emp arrow" is once every 90s)
- Enkindle which isn't a 3mn cooldown because of Ruin IV procs

SMN is a job which damage comes from all kind of sources. If you don't include half of them, of course it'll seems weak. But that's also completly unfair to do so.
So, stop comparing two jobs if you don't take everything into account. It doesn't serve your point and makes you look like you either don't know what you are talking about, or that you are dishonest.

It's hard to get your point across when majority healers I see are SCHs still at 70 and if the dps aren't a SAM or RDM they are a SMN or BRD and I've seen SMNs still out dps most so your argument has to be more then what you don't like that changed because SE won't see it your way they will see it my way unfortunately....I hope they change the class but right now for ppl who don't play it they don't see the issue with he SMNs high Dps currently lol

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Originally Posted by Fyce

Why are you comparing two jobs while purposefully leaving these aside:
- The pet sustained damage (!)
- Aetherflow usage (Fester is 900 potency in 15s every minute)
- Ruination+DWT buff
- Deathflare
- Demi-Bahamut 160 potency hits every 1.5s
- Akh Morn hits twice (meaning 2 times per 120s, while "Barrage and Emp arrow" is once every 90s)
- Enkindle which isn't a 3mn cooldown because of Ruin IV procs

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Same reason I didn't include Raging Strikes, Foe Req, Battle Voice, or The Wanderer's Minuet.
Ahk Morn Can't be used at the start of the fight and it's only possible to buff a single ahk morn. (Contagion doesn't last quite long enough.)
Barrage and Emp can be used instantly at the start of the fight, can be buffed by raging strikes (10%) a song of Bard's choice, and a 10% crit buff.

ahk morn can only be buffed 10%. God Forbid the damage, the direct hit and the crit buff cause emp arrow to direct crit hit for all three strikes. Barrage will have gone through a good chunk of it's cooldown by the time bahamut is ever summoned.

Emp Arrow is 230 potency every 15 seconds or 920 potency per minute. Sidewinder is 260.
I included deathflare. I compared it to Bard's Pitchperfect which is a 20 base potency stronger then deathflare assuming a Bard is able to get three stacks per minute.



If you want to compare Smn buffs to Bard's

Smn has Contagion (10% magic buff for 15 seconds)
Dreadwyrm (10% all damage for 16)
Ruination (Increases ruin by 20 potency... woo)
Radiant Shield (Oh but wait... can't use this on a dummy cause....)

Bard has
Raging Strikes (10% for 20 seconds)
Straighter Shot (10% crit for 20 seconds)
Foe Req (3% damage increase till it runs out)
The Wanderer's Minuet (2% crit buff)
Battle Voice (Direct Hit Buff by 15% for 20)

The ruination debuff is roughly the equivalent of Iron Jaws giving 100 potency when a Bard refreshes their dots.

Oh and did you forget bard can auto attack now? Auto attacks are 100 potency. Garuda's basic auto attack is does about the same damage as a summoner's 100 potency ruin. SO what about the pet's sustained damage? Bard Auto attacks on his own.

Enkindle is a 3 min cooldown factored on Rng. More often then not, It's cooldown is still over two minutes.

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Originally Posted by Aomine1992

It's hard to get your point across when majority healers I see are SCHs still at 70 and if the dps aren't a SAM or RDM they are a SMN or BRD and I've seen SMNs still out dps most so your argument has to be more then what you don't like that changed because SE won't see it your way they will see it my way unfortunately....

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Originally Posted by AsahinaMyLove

At HW: Smn classes got heavily boostet -> balanced

Now at Stormblood: Smn AND Sch got actually destroyed, As if a random trainee had some drunk ideas and the devs didnt looked into this mess before... >.>
I dont like that class anymore....

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Originally Posted by Silverquick

As I'd said,

You are not the only one who is seeing this. I am seeing it from other quarters as well. And obviously from the thread linked on the last page... its not just a couple of people noticing the fall off.

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I'm not the only one who would disagree with you.

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Originally Posted by Ariomi

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I listed you some stuff that you missed, and you still managed to ignore some of them. Especially the most important ones. You're definitly dishonest in your argument, only cherry picking what you want.

Stop this pointless comparison between skills. Compare actual full parses.

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Originally Posted by Tonkra

stuff, not necessarily this post specifically,

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Okay I tried to read everything, but after several pages I just had to chime in. Cause dude you need to quit while you can.

You seem to be unaware that every job SE has ever brought into existance can have a unique take per game. Here I'll give you a reverse example, maybe then you'll understand. "OMG change SCH, this is rediculous, SCHs don't have pets thats not what a traditional SCH does. Why do I summon a fairy, wouldn't that make me a SMN. I just want a traditional SCH." Hopefully that irony isn't lost on you or anyone else.

Oh and... you keep mentioning VII-X, but you might want to get your facts straightened out a little. First off, if you are forgoing a job system why not include II, IV, and VI. Second, You keep including IX, but IX has a Pseudo Job System, you just can't swap jobs, just the characters; IV is sorta similar but a bit different because of how the story progresses and the characters that come and go And Third, to add to the above, even when a job system isn't present, most character's are designed to fit into a Job, this is the case for VI, VII, VIII, and X. You are correct XII, did not have these systems. XIII, however had a different take on the Job System. And I've never played XV, but it looks like no Jib System is present there either.

Now onto the "pure" job debate... yeah that doesn't exist, SE can edit, alter, and create jobs as they see fit, since they are the creators. Some games have only Ninjas some have only Thieves, some both, same with Warriors or Fighters, Conjurers and Summoners... and hey on that topic, isn't the traditional FF Conjurer a lesser Summoner who can't call the summon just use their power briefly? And segwaying from that, some Jobs have had different names in the series, Conjurer/Evoker, Blue Mage/Gun Mage/Vampire, Dancer and Bard/Songstress/Performer, Dragoon/Dragon Knight/Valkyrie, Knight/Paladin/Holy Knight, the list goes on. And lastly not always is a job defined by its weapon... as you "pointed out" with DRK and Scythes. Warriors don't always wield axes, traditionally its swords. most Dark Knights in the series use swords not scythes, don't recall Summoners using grimoires really, or, and lets get the big on out of the way, when has a Bard used a Bow? Weapons are just that, weapons, what the character uses to deal damage, sometimes they are specific to that game and character, other times they can be what the player wants, they aren't set in stone. Eiko, a SMN, used Flutes, Rydia a SMN used Whips, Rosa a WHM used Bows, Wakka a RNG used Blitzballs, Cait Sith a BST used Megaphones, etc.

The main point is the series as a whole isn't as black and white as some people believe. The only things it has are commonalities that create the feeling of the jobs and world that SE is trying to make. As with RDM, they were worried that fans would not like their take, but they were able to do the job justice, but giving a jack-of-all-trades feel, not too strong in one area (maybe in magic though for obvious reasons) but where you have to use all 3 aspects to fight effectively.

Well, DPS information on level 70 summoner is coming in slowly. At level 70 on Susano EX and dummy, Summoner is anywhere between second and 5th place depending on player skill and fight.

All I have to say about that is: I knew it. SE balanced Summoner DPS to level 70, where it is amazing. However this makes Summoner clunky and weak feeling on all content lower than 70.

Take my Summoner that is level 66, any level 65 random enemy anywhere brings me dangerously close to death and this is with my going out with my rotation and cooldowns. As a DPS we are not meant to be tanky, but the enemies get really, really close to just killing us before we kill them, and we are a DPS job! The enemy should be dead long before we hit half health if we go all out!

I say the return of sustain and some potency distributions is in order. A slight buff to wash a way some of the salt would not be a bad idea.

As far as healing goes... they can't just remove Physick since its part of the arcanist package. What they can do however, is give summoners a trait at 30 that changes Physick into a pet heal. I vaguely recall someone mentioning that Sustain was removed because SMN's were soloing things SE didn't want them to. If that's the case, then give this new pet heal enough of a cooldown to be useful but not short enough to allow soloing whatever it is SE doesn't want them to solo.

I can't even keep all the different takes and complaints about Summoners in this thread straight because everyone has their own idea of what's wrong with the job.

Third parties read this thread and see Summoner, a job with DPS about as good/better than Black Mage, complaining and asking for buffs when there's objectively no performance issues with the job.

The problem isn't the job, it's the players.

I am starting to adapt to level 70 Summoner now and I'm moderately happy with it, still need to break the old aetherflow habits I had in regards to DWT. I do still enjoy this job immensely and I will adapt to any changes that get thrown my way. I've been playing Summoner as my main since 2.0 and I would hate to give up on it now, I know its sentimental but I do really love the lore, story and everything behind it.

However there is one but to all this... I'm still going to be unhappy about the loss of sustain and physick not getting a trait or something to compensate for the lack of a pet heal, like literally they could make a trait that changes a summoners physick into sustain to regain that ability and just make it a pure pet heal. I mean Garuda and Ifrit are fine if you have them out as you will be taking the brunt of damage when solo. But Titan is effectively useless since he takes way too much damage and no way to keep him alive without help from someone else.

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Originally Posted by Kyne_Lyons

Third parties read this thread and see Summoner, a job with DPS about as good/better than Black Mage, complaining and asking for buffs when there's objectively no performance issues with the job.

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You are objectively wrong, when a summoner has to ask a healer to keep our pet that is 25% of our dps alive. If many many people have a problem with a job it probably needs to be tweaked

I'm OK with the adjustment for SMN so far for one reason: Less reliance on AoE. I am glad SE is shifting the jobs focus from AoE's more towards single-target/small-group abilities. If it shakes a bunch of parser marks off the bandwagon, all the better.

I would hope, however, that a replacement for Sustain is in the works or a means for giving Titan more durability.

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Originally Posted by Ariomi

You are objectively wrong, when a summoner has to ask a healer to keep our pet that is 25% of our dps alive. If many many people have a problem with a job it probably needs to be tweaked

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If only we had an ability which would allow us to bring back our pet instantly if it died... We'd call that "Swiftcast", because it'd allow us to cast swiftly.
I'm so good at coming up with names of things that absolutly do not exist yet. Good job me.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

If only we had an ability which would allow us to bring back our pet instantly if it died... We'd call that "Swiftcast", because it'd allow us to cast swiftly.
I'm so good at coming up with names of things that absolutly do not exist yet. Good job me.

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Except that re-summoning our pet costs us about 25% of our mp and swiftcast has a minute cooldown. Try Again. I don't recall any other dps class having to sacrifice 25% of their tp/mp to do full damage.

"A well-known hardcore Japanese FFXIV raider has compiled a list of DPS averages after testing with his raid teammates."

1. Samurai (ilvl 312) - 4616 DPS
2. Summoner (ilvl 314) - 4418 DPS
3. Black mage (ilvl 314) - 4414 DPS
4. Red Mage (ilvl 314) - 4285 DPS
5. Ninja (ilvl 314) - 4240 DPS
6. Monk (ilvl 314) - 4235 DPS
7. Dragoon (ilvl 314) - 4020 DPS
8. Bard (ilvl 314) - 3816 DPS
9 Machinist (ilvl 314) - 3688 DPS

http://www.gamerevolution.com/guides...a4GbOmc6hCk.99

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Originally Posted by Ariomi

Except that re-summoning our pet costs us about 25% of our mp and swiftcast has a minute cooldown. Try Again. I don't recall any other dps class having to sacrifice 25% of their tp/mp to do full damage.

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Except that Sustain never saved a pet getting instakilled from a boss cleave or very powerful DoT.
Besides, you'll actually die more frequently than your pet does under your control while doing some duties.

Another thing, a SMN currently has ~13300 mana. A pet summon cost 2400. It's less than 20%. 18% to be precise. Not your grossly over-estimated 25%.

So no, I don't mind spending 18% of my mana once in a blue moon because I forgot to take my pet back before a cleave.
Stop acting like your pet dies every 2 minutes. It doesn't.

People are complaining about not having sustain because many summoners used it to solo better with the titan-egi.

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Originally Posted by curather

People are complaining about not having sustain because many summoners used it to solo better with the titan-egi.

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I know, and I'm not debating on this. I think that Titan+Sustain was completly OP, so the nerf doesn't bother me that much. Besides, I did all my leveling with Titan-egi just fine.

Whatever the case, saying that you need a dedicated healer to keep your pet alive to it can DPS is a ridiculous argument to use to show that "SMN has been over-nerfed!"... Especially since current parses put it at the second best DPS, on par with BLM.

It seems to me that this thread is nothing more than useless whining about changes done to Summoner...

titan-egi isn't worth it if you can't heal it, better to go ifrit-egi or garuda-egi as the threat it generates is way down and can't hold agro very well anymore.

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Originally Posted by Keyln

It seems to me that this thread is nothing more than useless whining about changes done to Summoner...

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It is. OP goes from one topic to another when shown facts: like from low damage then jumping to the class losing the ability sustain lol

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Originally Posted by Fyce

I know, and I'm not debating on this. I think that Titan+Sustain was completly OP, so the nerf doesn't bother me that much. Besides, I did all my leveling with Titan-egi just fine.

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And how is titan Op when every other class can solo just fine? Titan is nothing more then a tremendous dps loss when ifrit/garuda can increase the damage dealt to enemies. You ever see titan used in a raid? Not even worth it in solo play.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

Except that Sustain never saved a pet getting instakilled from a boss cleave or very powerful DoT.

So no, I don't mind spending 18% of my mana once in a blue moon because I forgot to take my pet back before a cleave.
Stop acting like your pet dies every 2 minutes. It doesn't.

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A large amount of people would disagree with you.

Sustain would be enough to save my pet in 90% of the situations it is in as it dies to raid wide aoes. Also you have no clue what you are talking about. Take a look at machinist. Their turrets can die and they have no way to heal them. So when a Machinist summons a turret, it is instant cast, costs no tp/mp and has a 10 second cooldown. 18% mana and using a summoner cooldown to get back a large portion of your dps is not ok. 18% of you mana is two minutes worth of aetherflow.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

I know, and I'm not debating on this. I think that Titan+Sustain was completly OP, so the nerf doesn't bother me that much. Besides, I did all my leveling with Titan-egi just fine.

Whatever the case, saying that you need a dedicated healer to keep your pet alive to it can DPS is a ridiculous argument to use to show that "SMN has been over-nerfed!"... Especially since current parses put it at the second best DPS, on par with BLM.

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Near top dps or not, the removal of sustain was pointless. The tank pets were designed to allow you to do solo content in the first place. Without sustain SMN doing any kind of solo content is a massive pain in the rear because everything hits so hard and you have to MP burn to just survive half the time in fate soloing.

Look at it like this: Not being able to sustain tank pets is like playing a tank and never repairing your gear after it breaks.

If you're going to argue it's ok, then make it so scholars can't summon the fairies outside of DF/RF content and see how that goes. It'll be the same thing basically.

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Originally Posted by Ariomi

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I understand what Exterium meant when saying that it was like talking to a wall.

Okay, you win. I don't have time for this. Sustain is an awesome skill that you need to use all the time in duties because your pet in constantly dying for whatever reason, and boss cleaves (like A12S where it's the most likely to happen) don't kill your pet and you're able to save it with Sustain.
I'm clearly not playing the same game as you, so I can't relate. I haven't used Sustain in a year, and I use Titan-egi for solo stuff all the time just fine.

Sorry that the loss of Sustain makes you unable to play correctly. We'll have to agree to disagree, because it doesn't affect me the slightest.

Sustain is used in 4man content and below during 3.0. I would have no qualms with them taking it away if they gave smn some form of survivability (and if they don\\'t pull another midgardsormir, secs have crap consistency with pet invuln coding) We have no self heal worth a damn and our tank pet works against our lvl 70 skill. To discourage using titan and give us nothing in return feels horrible. Now flash forward to 4.0 I personally have not made it to end game content on my smn because irl issues but my friend who\\'/ raced there and pretty much cleared everything says that pets now take incredibly INCREASED damage from mechanics in end game than they usually do and they do die a lot now. With the increasing need to MOVE your pet closer to melee range for devotion (fuck this skill) and the increased use of ifrit the chances of death are higher. A cleave may outright kill them, but a ground aoe won\\'t outright, but take a huge chunk and we now have no way to heal them. Can\\'t dodge on pet bc they\\'re still janky as nuts to control and movement = dps loss.

Tldr; would not mind sustain removal if they didn\\'t make current pets take increased dmg compared to 3.0 and if our current skills and the current remake of radiant shield didn\\'t require us to move them in dangers path even more while still discouraging re-summoning in general.

*Sees crying about sustain*
Just use garuda/ifrit and spam drain instead of ruin.

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Originally Posted by Higashikata

*Sees crying about sustain*
Just use garuda/ifrit and spam drain instead of ruin.

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You're missing the fact that pets still take damage in DF content and most healers don't go out of their way to heal your pet which costs a good chunk of MP to resummons and use your swiftcast. You're entire post is just pretty much a shitpost as it contributes nothing.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

Okay, you win. I don't have time for this. Sustain is an awesome skill that you need to use all the time in duties because your pet in constantly dying for whatever reason, and boss cleaves (like A12S where it's the most likely to happen) don't kill your pet and you're able to save it with Sustain.
I'm clearly not playing the same game as you, so I can't relate. I haven't used Sustain in a year, and I use Titan-egi for solo stuff all the time just fine.

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Try beating a12s without echo (without handicap) before you throw around insults. (feel free to look me up. I have better numbers then you do and I didn't have a bard in my group :p) And not sure you noticed, or your too stubborn to take notice, but no other class in the game can have 20% of their dps die and then suffer such a large penalty for it. You completely ignore that Machinist, the class closest to play style in summoner can have their turret die. It doesn't cost them any mp/tp/dps to re-summon it. Their turret is instant cast and has a 10 second cooldown. Pets are effected by more aoe damage this expansion compared to heavensward.You would be whining like the rest of us if your pet died after every mega holy, almost holy, or after defamation. There are cases like this in stormblood where your pet can get hit by everything, and you are spending needless amounts of mp to keep it alive. More Mp spent on pet = Less mp to use on spells and less time attacking.

Meanwhile Monk/Samurai/Ninja/Dragoon/Machinist/Bard/Red Mage/Black Mage don't have to spend any mp to swiftcast rez 25% of their dps.

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Originally Posted by Bigcat9715

Actually, currently Smn is just behind Samurai in the way of Dps. This is the chart of all the dps jobs that been parsed http://ft.trillian.im/efc29cb18654c5...Uk3tV3breQ.jpg

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And the actual dps numbers are out.

Aiuri Ai Mch #8
Sargatanas (NA)
4.0 3,660.4

Eirene Snow Smn #7
Elvellon on Tonberry (JP)
4.0 4,057.9 dps

Cupcake Corgi Red Mage #6
Sargatanas (NA)
4.0 4,200.6

Sasaro Saro Ninja #5
Ragnarok (EU)
4.0 4,350.9 Dps

Doogy Frostwhite Blm #4
Gilgamesh (NA)
4.0 4,384. dps

Aura L'afell Bard #3
Sargatanas (NA)
4.0 4,451.5 dps

Yud Tnb Monk #2 Highest
Belias (JP)
4.0 4,536.2 dps

Aix Len Samurai #1 Highest
Garuda (JP)
4.0 5,002.0 Dps


These are the top dps according to their class. Notice how bard went from Number 8 to Number 3. Summoner went from second best to second worst. These are the actual dps numbers, not some screenshot.

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Originally Posted by Ariomi

And the actual dps numbers are out.

Aiuri Ai Mch #8
Sargatanas (NA)
4.0 3,660.4

Eirene Snow Smn #7
Elvellon on Tonberry (JP)
4.0 4,057.9 dps

Cupcake Corgi Red Mage #6
Sargatanas (NA)
4.0 4,200.6

Sasaro Saro Ninja #5
Ragnarok (EU)
4.0 4,350.9 Dps

Doogy Frostwhite Blm #4
Gilgamesh (NA)
4.0 4,384. dps

Aura L'afell Bard #3
Sargatanas (NA)
4.0 4,451.5 dps

Yud Tnb Monk #2 Highest
Belias (JP)
4.0 4,536.2 dps

Aix Len Samurai #1 Highest
Garuda (JP)
4.0 5,002.0 Dps


These are the top dps according to their class. Notice how bard went from Number 8 to Number 3. Summoner went from second best to second worst. These are the actual dps numbers, not some screenshot.

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1) Where's your source for these numbers?

2) With the exceptions of those in first and last place, SMN still looks like it's doing relatively okay based off those probably-flexible numbers.

3) One thing that both sets of numbers agree on is that SMNs need to stop whining and be thankful they aren't playing MCH, although that could probably be because after two weeks, no one has figured out MCH yet.

Can we not use contextless numbers? What were they fighting (assuming none of them had to do mechanics), what was the comp, what was the %uptime on balance feeding. Were there adds to multidot, etc.

It's contextless numbers like this that give parsers a bad rep.

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Originally Posted by Jeykama

Can we not use contextless numbers? What were they fighting (assuming none of them had to do mechanics), what was the comp, what was the %uptime on balance feeding. Were there adds to multidot, etc.

It's contextless numbers like this that give parsers a bad rep.

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Those numbers were taken from the same fight, (Susanoo Ex) and were the very top dps from their respective job class. They were all doing the same fight with the same mechanics and represent the highest numbers that class can do in that situation.

Smn being 4k dps in the best scenario opposed to most classes being around 4200-4500 with Samurai at 5000 dps.

The only class worse then Summoner was Machinist at 3600 dps. Paladins and warriors can reach around 3200 dps.

Bad rep? Hardly. Using hard concrete facts like dps numbers to prove that summoner was nerfed too hard too much for you?