MNK 4.0 Changes . . . I'm not a fan tbh

Yoshida: It may be a bit difficult to understand without actually using it in game content. I'll tell you a bit because I want to hint at the rotation. This time with monk, we wanted to focus more on the Fists element, and the element type is reflected in Shoulder Tackle. It was important that you could see the impact of each type when you fight by switching between the three types. Originally with monks it was enough to get used to the fixed rotation, but when you enter a new battle with the associated uncertainty, you need to make quick decisions about things like whether to use Chakra or whether to keep going with the DPS rotation. Your DPS will grow if you excel at that, so I think monk should be rather interesting.

It did look good during our time with it.

Yoshida: It feels good to use. Where DPS used to fall apart at breaks between phases, it's now designed to be able to sustain if you play it well, so, as usual, it's a job that can excel based on the skill of the player. There are also synergies that you'll need to think about how to use to their fullest potential.

So even though the first impression is that the action rotation hasn't changed, it may feel entirely different when you actually take it into content.

Yoshida: The intention of the overall adjustments for DPS was that you'll be able to put out a decent amount of DPS, and all jobs will be raised, without much change what you've done before. However, the differences in player skill should become more apparent because with the simplified and clarified elements, there will be more room for players to come up with ways to further improve.

(Taken from : https://www.bluegartr.com/threads/13...ew-Translation)

Hmm... well unless you begin as monk, the difference of fists is not something we're so eager to use and play with, neither is shoulder's tackle... then again they had Dragoon as the standard class for all melee dps. *sigh*

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Originally Posted by DatPotato

"Yoshida: It may be a bit difficult to understand without actually using it in game content. I'll tell you a bit because I want to hint at the rotation. This time with monk, we wanted to focus more on the Fists element, and the element type is reflected in Shoulder Tackle. It was important that you could see the impact of each type when you fight by switching between the three types. Originally with monks it was enough to get used to the fixed rotation, but when you enter a new battle with the associated uncertainty, you need to make quick decisions about things like whether to use Chakra or whether to keep going with the DPS rotation. Your DPS will grow if you excel at that, so I think monk should be rather interesting.

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"You make fun of my game? You say my game easy? Enjoy monk you ungrateful ****"

Is what I read out of that. I'm sure I'm in the wrong... but that's the only translation I made

I don't understand this statement. it's like, they're so sure about themselves that they don't see the problems raising with monk, thus discarding any contructive feedback...

I really fail to see any good use of riddle of wind, it justs lowers your damages by 5, just allowing you to do a second should tackle.
And riddle of earth, refresh GL upon damage hit, which makes tornado kick useless and can only be used during ultimates provided they don't last too long..

Either our information is wrong and those skills will act totally differently, or there is a real lack of perspective on what they're doing.

Well if it can cheer you up guys, on the french monk threads, a community representative told us they took the feed back from MNK WHM and SMN, guess the message come across more or less?

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Originally Posted by DatPotato

Well if it can cheer you up guys, on the french monk threads, a community representative told us they took the feed back from MNK WHM and SMN, guess the message come across more or less?

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Do you have a link confirming this? I can't seem to locate this.

Edit: Found it.

I'll still wait until launch to see what everything is, because if Tackle Mastery still exists in any form then the devs will have failed.

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Originally Posted by DatPotato

Yoshida: It may be a bit difficult to understand without actually using it in game content. I'll tell you a bit because I want to hint at the rotation. This time with monk, we wanted to focus more on the Fists element, and the element type is reflected in Shoulder Tackle. It was important that you could see the impact of each type when you fight by switching between the three types. Originally with monks it was enough to get used to the fixed rotation, but when you enter a new battle with the associated uncertainty, you need to make quick decisions about things like whether to use Chakra or whether to keep going with the DPS rotation. Your DPS will grow if you excel at that, so I think monk should be rather interesting.


Yoshida: It feels good to use. Where DPS used to fall apart at breaks between phases, it's now designed to be able to sustain if you play it well, so, as usual, it's a job that can excel based on the skill of the player. There are also synergies that you'll need to think about how to use to their fullest potential.

Yoshida: The intention of the overall adjustments for DPS was that you'll be able to put out a decent amount of DPS, and all jobs will be raised, without much change what you've done before. However, the differences in player skill should become more apparent because with the simplified and clarified elements, there will be more room for players to come up with ways to further improve.

(Taken from : https://www.bluegartr.com/threads/13...ew-Translation)

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Wow that sounds out of touch. He has indirectly diminished those exact concepts he's touting here.

Skill gap has decreased because there are now fewer adjustments any job can make to match themselves to given conditions. By slimming modulars (e.g. the time or GCD count between where a Demolish would land and when all its DoT ticks complete) and removing DoTs and other such skills that could extend these modulars to allow for multiple sub-rotations across varying attack speeds and uptime durations, rotations have become more fixed, not less.

Ramp-up and uptime dependence, or opportunity cost for salvaging incoming downtime, has increased for DRG and NIN, increasing the extent by which downtime can cripple your DPS. In its current functionality, RoE does almost nothing to help with this (since it requires that we're attacked far enough into the jump that a refresh would allow us to retain GL even onto landing), while the extension to base GL duration merely decreases skill cap and/or devalues Tornado Kick at equal jump durations, and again does nothing if those jump durations are increased by the same or more.

Fists themselves haven't become much if any more interesting. Fire will remain the only fist viable except when in need of a double-charge. RoF becomes an awkward DPS CD. The first is bloat. The second's just any old CD.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Fists themselves haven't become much if any more interesting. Fire will remain the only fist viable except when in need of a double-charge. RoF becomes an awkward DPS CD. The first is bloat. The second's just any old CD.

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Yeah honestly, the fact that they decided that the "Fists of" stances shouldn't have been trimmed out as part of the action rework, when you literally only ever want to have Fists of Fire on, let alone that they tied a trait to them really shows that they don't have any idea about how Monk plays.

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Originally Posted by Keramory

Think monk lost itself after 1.0. Don't know how many remember but the job was amazing when we had the elemental wheel... and it packed a lot of power. Class was simple within itself too.

I've never been a fan of the GL mechanic in the first place. On paper it looks great but it's a bloody mess when you have EVERY boss jumping around like a mad man.

These changes have done nothing to excite me. Honestly though I don't know much they'd do to make me happy with monk again. Hopefully somehow playing it feels different then what I'm reading now

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While I prefer the feel of the 2.x - 3.x Monk over 1.x's, 1.x Monk's place on the battlefield felt outstanding. Though, possibly a bit overpowered.

Off-tank this for me? Sure.
Nuke this down for me? Sure.
Be the last one standing? Naturally.

For me what makes a Monk a Monk now is:

1. Rotational control.

I consider this as the amount of viable rotations and/or macro-rotations a job has available at given breaks in uptime and/or across a given range of GCD rates. In this sense, Monk is unparalleled. Should TP have been balanced (e.g. 50 TP given per GCD), a DRG would actually come close at a 2.22 GCD, allowing a highly complex rotation that adjusts considerably with the number of targets in play, and a sub-2s NIN doesn't trail far behind with a Warrior, but nothing will ever meet the buttery smoothness of internal balance that a 1.9s 3.x Monk provides.

2. Wing everything / confidence abounds.

Overlapping with the above, it feels to me that while the Monk has a lot of depth available for theorycrafting, it's also the job in which it feels most natural, once skilled, to wing everything. Immediacy is key after all, and every strike is merely the beginning of the movement for the next; making decisions on the GCD of cripples you. Yet with time that one GCD gap or more of preparation feels spontaneous. Moreover, its amazing what the mere inclusion of Fists of Wind and Fists of Earth can do for one's confidence. Soak with tank? Fists of Earth. Lived with 2 HP; good to go. Deposit T13 Earthshaker puddles between GCDs? Not even scary with Wind—Snap, Dragon, Twin, and back in back in time for Demo (Monk supper). Now, NIN and DRG get this too, admitedly, but per event/CD rather than on demand. That continual access just does something for the Monk through being that slight bit... more of what's necessary just then. It's surprisingly powerful. It might be unwarranted confidence in some cases. But the combination of it and the need for immediacy is what makes Monk the "Imma punch it" job. And I'm annoyed that SB didn't meaningfully improve upon this, except perhaps for when gathering adds under RoE, which I will maximize/abuse wherever possible to trim an otherwise needed tank.

3. Attack speed.

The rest just wouldn't be as significant without it. Personally, I find 2.15 slow and 1.88 about perfect, which means I'm desperately waiting for TP generation to be balanced/scaled-to-GCD, but it's all a pretty significant improvement. The really gross thing is that with a VPN in Cali I can double weave at said 1.88...

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Originally Posted by SpeckledBurd

Yeah honestly, the fact that they decided that the "Fists of" stances shouldn't have been trimmed out as part of the action rework, when you literally only ever want to have Fists of Fire on, let alone that they tied a trait to them really shows that they don't have any idea about how Monk plays.

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I actually love fist weaving. But at my rotational plateau given the option between 5% uptime on a GCD and 5% damage increase on it, the uptime will be superior 99% of the time because I only have about .2 seconds to spare by which to avoid 25-32 potency lost (for a 120 net gain), so Fists of Wind then becomes surprisingly viable for same-target uptime or facing potential tick neglect (not having Demo up in time for a global tick). If there are no buffs active already, then it becomes a matter of bonus potency now vs. global tick/personal GCD sync for the upcoming DoT.

I feel like most Monks don't actually know how to take advantage of their Fist stances. Granted, the long animation time and average player ping doesn't help. I was far more hesitant to use it at 120 ms ping, because it'd always take 2 GCDs to recover. At 30 ms, I can potentially swap at the tail of the 1st-2nd's gap, so I've only lost the Fire bonus on a single GCD.

The sad thing is to make Fist weaving broadly useful all they had to do was:
1. Make the skills activate faster
2. Reduce their animation time/lock
3. Reduce their cooldown (e.g. to exactly 1 GCD while still remaining oGCD, or to 1.5 seconds flat, since no one's likely to get there).

Granted, that'd make it almost an obligatory part of play at that point, lest they start consuming noticeable amounts of mana that would force them to be used sparingly (base potencies increased and Fire toggled for burst multiplicity).
Given that they would be wholly viable at that point, would you mind using them?

If that still doesn't quite do it, increase the bonuses by 20%, to 6 (Fire), 12 (Earth), and 36 (Wind).

...

My point though was that he could have done so much more to make their use more than just situational though. Being able to blend with the situation feels great on Monk, but being able to craft one's internal situation, like a MCH around the 2nd full burst phase, would add a lot to the job. Fists could have given access to that. Tackle Mastery is interesting insofar as battlefield control, but the game makes too little of that concept thus far. Thus, we needed more. It's a decent start, but we need a lot more for this to be a mechanic worthy of an expansion.

(I'm not counting Deep Meditation as a contributor to that sum simply because I find that it in almost every case diminished Monk gameplay by throwing off internal balance, devaluing stat choice, reducing control, introducing added maintenance, introducing points of viable hesitation absolutely adverse to Monk gameplay, etc., etc.)

If this doesn't work out, just play Samurai until some more balancing adjustment patches. Or just enjoy sub-optimal jobs anyway, unless you need to change for a savage raid group. The more jobs we get, the harder it is to keep them all equally viable. There's gonna be periods where certain jobs are less desirable. So much gets altered in an expansion that balancing efforts basically start from scratch again, but they will do significant post-launch fixes as always. Just how the cycle goes.

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Originally Posted by Rufalus

If this doesn't work out, just play Samurai until some more balancing adjustment patches. Or just enjoy sub-optimal jobs anyway, unless you need to change for a savage raid group. The more jobs we get, the harder it is to keep them all equally viable. There's gonna be periods where certain jobs are less desirable. So much gets altered in an expansion that balancing efforts basically start from scratch again, but they will do significant post-launch fixes as always. Just how the cycle goes.

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For me, it's never been about being optimal or meta. Monk just feels alot less fun with the missing moves, overdependence of Forbidden Chakra, and the bad additions of RoE, RoF, and Tackle Mastery. I'm not much of a fan of Deep Meditation or Brotherhood either as they are either "overpowered" (at the maybe 100% seen in the job actions video and even then with the pot nerf FC doesn't make up for dps losses unless you hit 6 or more in a 15 sec timespan) or underpowered (the 30% from the media tour data that most of us are going off of). None of this helps the class in the end imo.

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Originally Posted by Rufalus

If this doesn't work out, just play Samurai until some more balancing adjustment patches. Or just enjoy sub-optimal jobs anyway, unless you need to change for a savage raid group. The more jobs we get, the harder it is to keep them all equally viable. There's gonna be periods where certain jobs are less desirable. So much gets altered in an expansion that balancing efforts basically start from scratch again, but they will do significant post-launch fixes as always. Just how the cycle goes.

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Monk's been undesirable for basically all of 3.0. We've been the joke dps for two years, or at the very least post-Gordias. With all due respect, I think it is very easy for someone who hasn't had to put up with all the ribbing and being told your main class is useless for an entire expansion to tell us to just deal with it - after all, even with the launch issues at 3.0, as far as I'm aware there's never been a "delete mch" meme.

I do actually need to change for my static, because while I'm most comfortable with monk as a dps class and have the most fun with it, the proposed changes would essentially make me borderline useless for the role that I'm supposed to play. I'm not about to demand that seven other people cater to me, especially not when the class I'd be playing hits like a wet noodle and has little-to-no utility. That's why I'll likely be switching to sam for progression despite not really wanting to.

There's been 18 pages of people pointing out exactly why the proposed changes are pretty terrible. Sub-optimal is one thing. Clunky, counter-intuitive, and overly stripped-down and simplified is another.

Yeah, you can enjoy a class regardless of viability...but that requires it being enjoyable to play, and 4.0 mnk doesn't look like it will be.

There is a lot of upset people here, and I don't want to come off as rude but both here and reddit people seem more upset that Sam was designed to be top DPS AND mnk players wanted to stay on top and just get a little more raid utility.

These changes don't make sense either and I'm not a very experienced mnk only played it a bit back in ARR but, even though I don't represent the populace, I never minded a Mnk in any party. (This was a year ago and I'm coming back for SB) I just don't remember the plight of Mnks being this bad, you guys made it seem as though you couldn't get Into simple pugs to accomplish things.

I will reserve judgement for SB, might level mnk after Sam since I've do e Drg for too long.

I wouldn't mind my dps taking a hit if at least we got some new stuff to play around with. The problem is....we play exactly the same, and no new traits aren't gonna change the way the job plays. Especially when those traits focus on...shoulder tackle, and RNG tacked on RNG.

I pray whatever changes made to monk since the April build were significant and worthwhile. At this point, im dying to see the patch notes.

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Originally Posted by Leonus

There is a lot of upset people here, and I don't want to come off as rude but both here and reddit people seem more upset that Sam was designed to be top DPS AND mnk players wanted to stay on top and just get a little more raid utility.

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I see more people upset that MNK just spent 2 years being unquestionably worse then DRG/NIN and now SAM will actually be a good version of HW MNK while SB MNK is projected to be the worst melee DPS for another expansion. Most of the good MNK's I've talked to plan on changing from MNK if the current tooltips don't change next week.

(I'm french, so sorry for my bad english)

Here all the change / idea I have for the monk. 4,0 isn't out wet so it's a lot of speculation because we don't know the final product.

All the change / idea aren't final and I will try to not talk about number. If my monk look to powerful, all can be change ! For me, the problem with monk isn't global DPS (the nerf of some skill isn't the most inportant because you can change it), but the concept of the job who is know wrong execute and contradictory. The monk don't have is own identity !

I will come back and judge the job after being Level 70 with some hour in my hand !

Change

Touch of Death :*This skill have to stay. If not, they should make some adjustment to Demolish

Arm Of The Destroyer :*The effect (Silence) should not depend of the form, this skill is to much situational because of this. It should be an oGCD with a short reset. But, for compensate the short reset the skill should become a single target without damage.

Demolish :*For conpensate the lost of Touch of death and Fracture, they shoul buff that skill.

Fists of Wind :*Currently this stance is only use for moving faster in town. This stance should reduce weaponskill cast time and recast time, and auto-attack delay plus increases movement speed, to conpensate the lost of DPS du to not being in Fist of Fire. Fist of Wind must become an alternative to Fist of Fire : Power Mode or Speed Mode ! The two stances will give the opportunity to have two kind of monks, but the global DPS have to stay the same between these two. The Fire have to be more powerful, but slower. The wind have to be faster, but weaker and the TP should be reduce. The monk's skills should have different effect because of the stance (like they made for Shoulder Tackle). The difference should be more like QoL and playstyle but the two stance should be viable for combat ! Fist of Earth must be more défensive / support. So Fist of Fire = Power Mode / Fist of Wind = Speed Mode / Fist of Earth = Defense Mode.

One Ilm Punch :*The skill should be remove to let Steel Peak do the Stun. Like Arm of the Destroyer, this skill is to much situational because of form. With the adjustment of Arm of the Destroyer the all thing will be more logic. For not becoming a clone of Leg Sweep who is now a cross role, Steel Peak should have an advantage and keep the damage.

Dragon Kick :*To give monk a better group utility, the skill should reduce the target physical resistance !

Perfect Balance :*The reset should be reduce. 30s min or 60s max. (Maybe 30 with Fist of Wind and 60 with Fist of Fire).*

Tornado Kick :*The potency should be buff. The cost (3 Stack of GL) is too hisgh for the potency and the skill is to much situational. And the new skill Riddle of Earth kill the utility of Tornado Kick in Boss jump phase (keeping stack is more OP). Thats why they should reduce the reset of Perfect Balance because this will grant us the possibilty to make more Tornado Kick (if Perfect Balance resent is good, we don't need buff potency for Tornado Kick. Perfect Balance is needed for the usage of Tornado Kick (it's faster to gain your 3 stack).

Deep Méditation :*It's hard to judge because we only have the tool type. 30% look per critical hit seem a little low. Maybe too much RNG (RNG with crit + RNG of 30%). I'll wait until Stormblood.

Riddle Of Earth :*The skill should give 3 stack of GL and not only refresh GL. This skill kill Tornado Kick usage in boss jump phase because it's more OP to keep your 3 stack of GL. If the potency of Tornado Kick isn't buff, Riddle of Earth have to give 3 GL stacks, because that give you the opportunity to keep using Tornado Kick and then have 3 stack again. Riddle can also give the 3 stacks of GL without being hit, but this would kill Perfect Balance.

Shoulder Tackle (Wind) :* This skill will be useful, only if Fist of Wind is viable in combat !

Shoulder Tackle (Earth) :*This skill like Fist of Earth should be a defensive skill. It would be interesting if we were able to buff to a partner by using Earth Shoulder Tackles. Dash and apply a buff on a ally who grant him a shield or something like cover or maybe heal him (this one can be cool with mantra). With this kind of skill the Fist of Earth can become more defensive / support and give monk some new group utility.

Riddle Of Fire : This skill is here only for conpensate the lost of Blood for Blood. This skill is in contradiction with the design of the monk (because of the lost of the speed) ; the fastest DPS. This skill will be very different with the modifications of the fists.

Brotherhood :*Like Deep Meditation, it's hard to judge without playing. The skill look more RNG than Deep Meditation because of an other level of RNG ; the team. With this skill, monk is to much team dependent. Also, the fact that the monk don't have the 5% buff is strange. I'll wait until Stormblood.

The Concept of (my) Monk

Like I said in the change of Fist of Wind, this stance have to be an alternative to Fist of Fire.
The idea behind this (new) monk is having a 2 in 1 job or maybe 3 in 1. I have in mind something like "choose your monk", and the two stance have to stay viable in combat. The concept will give to the monk something unique, becoming the only job with two combat mode. The stance dance will still be possible, but the change will be more about the playstyle and will change the skills. It's not some kind of a buff ! It's not like a tank who change stance because when a tank change he change his role (MT or OT / Tank or DPS). The idea is to make two kind of monk player some who play fire style and some who play wind style.

A good exemple is the 3.0 Bard
Imagine a bard with minuet (casting) and a Bard without (festest), but the two are viable in combat ! That wasn't the case because without minuet the DPS of bard was too low !

Here an example from an other video game ; Mortal Kombat. When you choose Scorpion, you have to choose a style / variation (Ninjutsu / Hellfire / Inferno). The variation have things in common, some effect change and new move are add. The result is that one character have 3 different gameplay, but without havind 3 completely new moveset.

The Fist of Earth on the other hand will still be more support / defensive and will never be viable in combat keeping is place of an situational stance.

So, monk will be a 2 in 1 job with a situational defensive stance !

The dev idea about making fists more important isn't bad, but it's poorly executed because Fist of Wind base is useless. The idea behind making variation of the skill because of the stance is good too, but not enouth.

The Fists

Fists of Earth :*Reduces damage taken. Cannot be used with Fists of Fire or Fists of Wind, and shares recast timer with both. Effect ends upon reuse.

Fists of Wind :*Increases movement speed. Reduces weaponskill cast time and recast time and auto-attack delay. Reduce TP cost. Cannot be used with Fists of Earth or Fists of Fire, and shares recast timer with both. Effect ends upon reuse. Note : It may be possible that with all the speed boost the GCD is too fast, making positioning too hard. It may be good to cancel the positiong with Fists of Wind. That would make the speed playstyle more good and will make a higher difference between Fire and Wind.

Fists of Fire :*Increases damage dealt. Cannot be used with Fists of Earth or Fists of Wind, and shares recast timer with both. Effect ends upon reuse.

Skill variation

(These are exemple of some)


Shoulder Tackle

Earth : Rushes target and increases the physical and magic defense of target and yours.

Or

Earth : Rushes target and take all physical and magical damage intended for another party member. Can only be used when member is closer than 10 yalms.

Or

Earth : Rushes target and Restores target's HP and yours.

Wind : Rushes target and delivers an attack. You can do it twice. (We should have a timer between the time, but I don't know how long)

Fire : Rushes target and delivers an attack. (This one is stronger).

Or

Fire : Rushes target and delivers an attack. Damage over time.


Mantra


Earth : Increases HP recovery via curing magic by 20 % for self and nearby party members.

Wind : Reduces weaponskill cast time and recast time, spell cast time and recast time, and auto-attack delay for self and nearby party members.

Fire : Increases damage dealt for self and nearby party members.

Or

Fire : Increases critical hit rate of self and nearby party members


Riddle of


Earth : Reduces damage taken. Grant you Greased Lightning III when hit.

Wind : Reduces weaponskill cast time and recast time, and auto-attack delay

Fire : Increases damage dealt.


Tornado Kick


Wind : Delivers an attack. Loose one stack of Greased Lightning.

Fire : Delivers an attack. Can only be used when under the effect of Greased Lightning III. Effect fades upon execution.

Other Idea

The Fists of Wind can also reduce the cost of Purification and The Forbidden Chakra. We can also buff the RNG of Brotherhood and Deep Meditation.

The time of DoT like Demolish, buff and debuff can also be different between Fire and Wind stance.

A 4th move can be add on the combo, this one can also be unique with the stance. I think the 4th move should not be a GCD, because it maybe cause some problem for refreshing GL. An oGCD who proc after the execution of Snap Punch, Demolish or Rockbreaker. The skill will have a reset to prevent spam with Perfect Balance. The 4th move with Fire should have more potency but proc lees often (every 6 GCD = 2 combos) and the Wind one will should be weaker but more regular (every 3 GCD = 1 combo).

I said nothing about that but we can also change the GL stack with the stance :
Earth : One stack grant more defense (Yellow lightning in HUB)
Wind : One stack grant more speed (Blue lightning in HUB)
Fire : One stack grant more attack (Red lightning in HUB)

Conclusion

Like I said previously, I tried to not talk about potency and purcentage, because I don't want to put strange number. It's very logic that the skills under Fire are stronger than Wind one, but the Wind skill conpensate with their execution speed. We can translate this like that : If Fire strike one hit at 100, Wind strike two hit at 50. The result must be the same !

With this system, monk will be playable for two type of players ; Players who want big number and the players who want fast gameplay. It's not necessary to switch between the stances, but dancing with stances can make the difference between top player and more casual player ( the top player will look at choose the better stance, in the good situation). The identity of the Fists is more important et the difference between them will give to the monk player the possibility to have two gameplay ! This monk also have a better group utility with more tool to help allies. It still have the core of the job (Speed / Dynamic / Positioning / DPS) and grant him some diversity. The Job will have something unique and is own identity : The only Job with two gameplay / playstyle (not 3 because Fists of Earth will not be able to make the fight. It will be still an defensice and situational stance).

But I know I'm dreaming because all these change are too big for a simple patch. It's look more like a revamp of the job. It's something that won't came until 5.0 but I can still hope !

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Originally Posted by echo78

I see more people upset that MNK just spent 2 years being unquestionably worse then DRG/NIN and now SAM will actually be a good version of HW MNK while SB MNK is projected to be the worst melee DPS for another expansion. Most of the good MNK's I've talked to plan on changing from MNK if the current tooltips don't change next week.

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Yeah, this is basically my beef.

Well, it's finally getting raid utility in the form of Brotherhood which is what a lot of people had been asking for. Honestly if you enjoy the job that much like I do, just play it, especially if you don't take "the meta" that seriously anyway. Or re-roll if you're not happy. The main issue with Monk for a lot of people is the lack of raid utility besides mantra, and we finally got it, while Samurai has become the new "selfish" dps. For all we know, that much dps might not still be enough anyway upon release. We'll have to wait and see. From what I saw though base on this thread, the monk community just seems ungrateful. I know the other new abilities don't seem exciting, but it seems like they're meant to be situational just like the Ninja ones in 3.x. Riddle of Earth seems good for mitigating unavoidable damage and riddle of wind seems good for PVP. I'm not trying to defend the changes entirely but my point is, monk got the one thing they desperately needed in HW, and that's utility. DRGs, BRDs, and SCHs to name a few will synergize well with MNKs with the new changes, and we just need to wait and see how it plays out.

Edit: I will say that I don't agree with some of the nerfs either. Forbidden Charka seems over-nerf and the potency nerfs in our rotation seems pointless as well. Tornado Kick also could use as well.

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Originally Posted by Chi_Hoshi

Snip.

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Just a quick note, telling people to stop playing a job they love because the changes screwed them up is A) Counter-productive, and B) Obviously not what SE wants given the reason for the removal of casts for Mch and Brd being the severe drop of class usage.

I don't care too much about meta, but bad design is bad design. No one is complaining about Brotherhood (Only that it's too weak, really). It's everything else.

Yes, we got raid utility...but it's underpowered, honestly not that good, and still not a reason to bring monks to stuff.

Also nerfs.

Also what we desperately needed in HW was offensive utility and raid synergy, and we got a half-hearted taste of the former and none of the latter.
(We needed an aggro dump too and we got that, but so did everyone so I'm not counting that.)

As it stands, Brotherhood is underwhelming and we still have no actual synergy with the rest of whatever group we happen to be in. We're still the selfish dps, but with none of the numbers that come with that position (sam does, and also provides slashing debuff afaik, so there's synergy with all three tanks and nin), and consequently if the patch notes don't reveal anything drastic we're going to stay the odd class out of the melee.

Riddle of Earth isn't good for mitigating much, imo, since in order to trigger the defense boost you have to take damage. That's not going to benefit you unless it's multiple hits in a row...and if you're in a position where that's happening, +20% defense is probably not going to help you very much since nine times out of ten that means a boss is chewing on your face.

Like KingFrost just said, bad design is bad design. That's the issue here.

Edit: And just so you know, I do enjoy the job like you do. That's why I'm so unhappy about this.

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Originally Posted by KingFrost

Just a quick note, telling people to stop playing a job they love because the changes screwed them up is A) Counter-productive, and B) Obviously not what SE wants given the reason for the removal of casts for Mch and Brd being the severe drop of class usage.

I don't care too much about meta, but bad design is bad design. No one is complaining about Brotherhood (Only that it's too weak, really). It's everything else.

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What I meant to say is do whatever makes you happy. I know some people just don't like the new skills and that having higher dps is really important to them but I can't speak for everyone.

Like I said, we need to wait until 4.0 to see how everything plays out at this point, though I get that feedback is important and SE could actually be listening to us, but waiting for the patch notes and playing it for ourselves is the only way to be certain.

You might be right about Brotherhood but remember that it does last longer (15s) than ninja's trick attack (10s). Arcian has a good point about Riddle of Earth as well.

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Originally Posted by Arcian

Yes, we got raid utility...but it's underpowered.

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I gotta agree that it is underpowered. Too little a raid buff for too short a time for too long a cooldown.
Tho I believe they did intend for some raid synergy in an upside-down fashion?
For example, brotherhood works the best for the MNK the less casters the party has :/ (so, yay?)

... not very helpful.

Well, hopefully we'll see some good changes on the patch notes, since it have been told the tooltips shown so far were an April build that prioritized game stability for the media to enjoy over balance of the skills, so most likely things will be slightly (or very) different once we see them out.

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Originally Posted by Leonus

I just don't remember the plight of Mnks being this bad, you guys made it seem as though you couldn't get Into simple pugs to accomplish things.

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That did happen, we were barred from entering pick up groups in the PF frequently enough to be noticeable for EX and Savage raid parties, most noticeably in 3.4/3.5.

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Originally Posted by echo78

I see more people upset that MNK just spent 2 years being unquestionably worse then DRG/NIN and now SAM will actually be a good version of HW MNK while SB MNK is projected to be the worst melee DPS for another expansion. Most of the good MNK's I've talked to plan on changing from MNK if the current tooltips don't change next week.

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This is another good point at all. I'm not convinced that Samurai is going to be super OP at this point, but it's incredibly aggravating to be neglected by the devs since 3.2 in Heavensward while the other Melee see buffs (Dragoon's getting buffed by the buffs to Bard/Machinist probably wasn't intentional, but Ninja sure needed that AOE buff to further weaken Monk since that was the one spot it excelled at compared to the other melee), and then have them actually try and make Samurai what Monk was supposed to be.

Ayo dawg I heard you like RNG.

So we put RNG on your RNG so you can RNG while you RNG.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Didn't Flare go from -10/20/30/40/50... to -15/30....? That's a buff on any more than 4 mobs...

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Late reply, but let's do some math.

Current Flare average multiplier:
4 - 0.85
5 - 0.8
6 - 0.75

New Flare:
4 - 0.8125
5 - 0.79
6 - 0.775

It's technically worse on five enemies, but worse for less. Any more than six and it gets better and better.

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Originally Posted by Waliel

Current Flare average multiplier... <snip>

It's technically worse on five enemies, but worse for less. Any more than six and it gets better and better.

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100 / 190 / 270 / 340 / 400 / 450 / 500
100 / 185 / 255 / 325 / 395 / 465 / 535

Sorry, my head-math was either off slightly or I was thinking at "5 additional" enemies.

The weird thing is that it runs contrary to their "cutting down on big pulls" idea, though still without a consistent formula (e.g. the average of n and √n total potency multiplier).

If they wanted to cut down on AoE through and through, I don't know why they wouldn't just take one total damage formula that allows for equal damage to all enemies hit while tapering its output somewhat. It wouldn't likely change the choice of skill (except perhaps between Rockbreaker and Demolish-spread), but it would at least taper output in line with their alleged intentions. Crippling some, buffing others, and leaving the rest untouched has in this case just imbalanced AoE potential in a new way—"the king is dead; long live the (new) king."

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Originally Posted by Arkenne

I gotta agree that it is underpowered. Too little a raid buff for too short a time for too long a cooldown.
Tho I believe they did intend for some raid synergy in an upside-down fashion?

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I think you have the right of it there.

Put it this way: consider if the 5% damage buff to the raid were removed, yet the Monk was still intended to be balanced in 8-man content (all other numbers being thus adjusted). What will have changed?

It will simply have become more variant in raid contribution, despite that being entirely personal DPS, based on party size and composition. The first is true of every job with raid DPS bonuses; the second of about half of those same jobs.

Put another way, it would be a nerf to Monk output when in light party content, more in keeping with other classes.

The only question would then be: why didn't they do the same to SAM?

brotherhood is far more underpowered than you can think...
you can look at what the other offer already.

ninja 10% of damage deal by the team on a target every minute
dragoon +15% critic hit for 20 sec every 180 sec...

brotherhood even compared at skill already present is underwhelming...

Y'know what one of the biggest slaps in the face is, though? Samurai got the ability Third Eye. Not the class that has spent the entirety of their story doing nothing but opening chakras, no. Samurai.

For those who don't know, the Third Eye is the 6th chakra, which resides in the forehead. Opening it is a fundamental step of attaining inner peace and, eventually nirvana. This is like if SAM was given a ninjutsu, or a jump. They literally gave a core, fundamental aspect of our class's lore identity to Samurai.

To add a bit more weight to this, currently Monks can only open up the first 5 chakras with Meditation. Samurai is able to open the 6th chakra before Monks get to.

samurai had third eyes for very long and this mechanic work perfectly since they had counter.
now i admit i will have wished they had give fist of earth under this form.

I know SAM had Third Eye in XI. It's just that, on top of everything else, with MNK still only being able to open the first 5 chakras, even though we've unlocked all 14, had to fight for our lives in order to do so, for SAM to be given the ability to open the 6th just feels like a betrayal.

They gave poor monks a taste of power with the 14 chakras opened hitting like nuclear missiles and regening health faster than wolverine, sadly those advancements on their art are barely shown aside the job quest :(

don't get me wrong i'm kinda upset about the monk situation, but the trouble lie in the dev team that simply have given the rightfull mechanic of the monk to other jobs, like the dragoon that did get more combo... when the combo system is our speciality...

the worst it's because they don't want to make the jobs too hard, when the jobs is barely difficult from get go.
we end in a situation far more dire, it's at the critical level, where we are like in the 1.23.... unwanted. none of the add announced are good... it's as simple than this. none other jobs have a buff that only work in group.... all the other jobs buff work even on them... brotherhood is wrong.
why the fist of the wind, the most useless skill we can found in the whole game is still there? why one ilm punch is still there? i'm failing to understand what they try to accomplish exept kill the freaking monk.

i'm angry to the point to hate what they have done, when all the rest of the expansion is great, the monk is far more than a slap in the face.... it's rude and extremely underwhelming. honestly if in the 4.1 the monk don't get a whole rework.... they can delete it.... because no one will want to be unwanted for 2 more years.

add buff that will increase artificially our damage or add a half baked synergy that is barely interesting is not what will save the monk. they still don't understand where the problem is... maybe because in the dev team, none play monk seriously. any serious monk will look at the 4.0 monk modification and say is not what we need, is not decent, is not good at all. and we can continue for age... sadly we are one of the smallest part of the community then we are not a priority...exept that they have buff soo much some jobs that now the monk did loose his role and have no reason to exist anymore.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wintercoat

I know SAM had Third Eye in XI. It's just that, on top of everything else, with MNK still only being able to open the first 5 chakras, even though we've unlocked all 14, had to fight for our lives in order to do so, for SAM to be given the ability to open the 6th just feels like a betrayal.

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In fairness: Pureblooded Garleans had the third eye before even monks.

/offtopic

Quote:

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

Snip

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I think the dev team actually plays monk somehow, but only in pvp.
The skills, the change, they all works wonder somehow if you pvp.
the 10s cooldown for TK allows more burst, like Axe kick > TK > Somersault > Some Snap > TK (if not enough form shift for a last one) > Perfect Balance > Snaps/One Ile Punch (no immunity against it) > as a rough example

riddle of earth works wonder in pvp too

*I should stop i'll sadden myself more with what they're doing*

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DatPotato

I think the dev team actually plays monk somehow, but only in pvp.
The skills, the change, they all works wonder somehow if you pvp.
the 10s cooldown for TK allows more burst, like Axe kick > TK > Somersault > Some Snap > TK (if not enough form shift for a last one) > Perfect Balance > Snaps/One Ile Punch (no immunity against it) > as a rough example

riddle of earth works wonder in pvp too

*I should stop i'll sadden myself more with what they're doing*

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Yeah I mentioned that a few pages ago, and it really doesn't stop making sense the more I think about it, and it's really disheartening to think that the dev team is so out of touch with how Monk plays to think that it's PVP playstyle is identical to its PVE playstyle.

It's even more disheartening when you consider that they planned to keep all of the PVP actions in PVP but they keep tacking them on as PVE skills on Monk.

There's also a few puzzling aspects about what they did do kind of right. They expanded on our means of building Chakras but they didn't give us anything new to do with them, we still just have Purification and Forbidden Chakra. They could have given us an AOE Forbidden Chakra or something similar. But no, we're a DPS without any new attacks.

I really wish there'd be a community manager or a dev who would make a statement here along the lines of the statement they made in the White Mage threads, I know they did so on the French forums, but it really feels like Monk is being ignored after it was basically ignored from 3.2 of Heavensward onward.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SpeckledBurd

I really wish there'd be a community manager or a dev who would make a statement here along the lines of the statement they made in the White Mage threads, I know they did so on the French forums, but it really feels like we're being ignored after we were basically ignored from 3.2 of Heavensward onward.

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Unfortunately, Monk players didn't cry loudly enough to get a response. Dark Knights look like they're getting a pretty raw deal in SB also and they aren't getting any big dev response as well, last I looked. And they're being far more vocal about their unhappiness than Monk players are.

Meanwhile, White Mages put up literally the biggest saltfest I've ever seen in FFXIV (not saying it wasn't justified though). Like, multiple threads in all places with one reaching well over 200 pages. It far outstripped the crying musicians complaining about bowmages in a fraction of the time, which prompted the instant SE response.

I think they aren't gonna realize what they did to Monk until a couple of patches when they see people still aren't using them and then they look at the data and go "oh crap". Which sucks because I really like Monk, it was my first Job back in 1.0 and the Pugilist beta in ARR was what sold me on the 2.0 combat system. When it was just the beta with Lancer I was ready to drop the game altogether out of disinterest in the combat.

I don't know about New MNK's skill, let me see this next happen? in Raid (Savage) +30%Dmg/-15% SkS GCD Fist of Fire :/

https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31....5b&oe=59A5A799

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DatPotato

I think the dev team actually plays monk somehow, but only in pvp.
The skills, the change, they all works wonder somehow if you pvp.
the 10s cooldown for TK allows more burst, like Axe kick > TK > Somersault > Some Snap > TK (if not enough form shift for a last one) > Perfect Balance > Snaps/One Ile Punch (no immunity against it) > as a rough example

riddle of earth works wonder in pvp too

*I should stop i'll sadden myself more with what they're doing*

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Pretty much.

Imo someone should sit the dev team down and kindly explain to them that centering the majority of a class's abilities on PvP is an incredibly asinine idea and ask them what on earth could possibly make them think that this was a decision people would be happy with.

(But don't mind me, I'm just being bitter. Horribly, horribly bitter.)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arcian

(But don't mind me, I'm just being bitter. Horribly, horribly bitter.)

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I know your pain ...

Reading this and other threads and laughing at how idiotic these OPs and responses are.. No one's even played any of the jobs at 70, we don't know how the new skills need to be worked in, we don't know what the boss fights are going to be like... Chill out people, my god. The devs likely know exactly what they're doing. So monks ate a damage nerf? They are likely changing the job up some so that some skills are going to be used more often. Get use to it, change your job, or gtfo of the game. Simple as that.