Put back Extreme trial on raid finder again...please

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Originally Posted by DaikiKiyoshi

Sounds like a personal problem. Vets aren't here to teach newbies, we are here to have fun just like they are. We have zero obligation to assist anyone yet sometimes we still do out of the kindness of our hearts. They should be grateful for what they get. If you are concerned about people using it to filter newbies out of MSQ content simply don't allow the "No Bonus" option to be selected for things like MSQ dungeons and Roulettes.

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That's all fine from your perspective, but it's ignoring why these mechanics exist. Square Enix is trying to keep the game healthy. Having players who flatly refuse to help new players is extremely unhealthy for a game like this. That's why there are so many mechanics designed to incentivize helping players.

Which isn't to say you're necessarily wrong regarding the raid finder. But your attitude is literally useless to Square Enix, and they're not going to cater to it because it doesn't help grow the game at all. If you want to convince them to give you what they want, you need to provide a reason for them to do so. Selfishness is not a good way to convince people to help you.

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Originally Posted by Talraen

Having players who flatly refuse to help new players is extremely unhealthy for a game like this. That's why there are so many mechanics designed to incentivize helping players.

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Unfortunately, those kinds of people will never go away, regardless of what is done to the Raid Finder or Ex primals, or what SE does to the game. Can't please everybody. :/

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Selfishness is not a good way to convince people to help you.

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This comment applies to the people here demanding everyone needs to cater to them because they're new as well. Except now it's them being selfish, and not the vets that just want to farm some days.

It's not selfish of vets to want the option to filter bonuses out of their premades. It's also not selfish that new people ask for veterans with experience to help them, and pass that experience along. What's selfish is when one group (and this goes for BOTH) demands that the other needs to do what the want because they're "more important."

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

Because you guys are talkin like this is a majority of the playerbase and its not

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If its not a majority of people who'd use the option in the first place, what harm is done?


It may not take away our chance not to have the cleared-option in RF, but its making farming less convenient and more annyoing.
Having the cleared-option in the DF isnt taking away the chance of people who want to learn the fight either - stop making it sound as if there is one newbie and 99 vety queueing and if they're all gone, newbie is all alone and cant learn the fight (unless they go into PF and make a learning party for it)

We are not asking to remove the "I havent cleared it yet"-queue - we're asking for a second queue option, being "I have cleared this". And if people want to spend their freetime in a game farming instead of teaching/helping/carrying new people they should have every damn right and the means to do so!
You really need to stop thinking that newbie-clears and their wish to do this content snyched are more important than "vet"-people who would like their bird now.
I might want to spend those last two months before SB farming for my birds because there is nothing else to do and I would unsub without that. (This doesnt apply to me anymore, because I got my birds now - but I still see enough farm-parties, so telling those people "hey, just wait 2 months and go and help new people now because their kills are really more important" is a horrible attitude)
You keep saying that you want to get those kills the proper way - guess what: I wanted to get my birds the proper way. Which is why I had to farm them now - it might be more difficult to get a syched-learning-party once unsched is an option, but its going to be impossible to farm this content syched once unsyched is an option. So your argument only works when you consider the new person more important than anyone else...

Lets go back to the swimming pool and the two lanes that are for people who want to serious exersice while the rest of the pool is for everyone who wants to just fool around and paddle a bit - those people who want to seriously exersice arent being mean monsters, even if they keep focused on their goal of swimming lanes when the playful people need one more person for water-volleyball and our swimmer chooses to stay focused on their goal and not join them.

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Originally Posted by Talraen

That's all fine from your perspective, but it's ignoring why these mechanics exist. Square Enix is trying to keep the game healthy. Having players who flatly refuse to help new players is extremely unhealthy for a game like this. That's why there are so many mechanics designed to incentivize helping players.

Which isn't to say you're necessarily wrong regarding the raid finder. But your attitude is literally useless to Square Enix, and they're not going to cater to it because it doesn't help grow the game at all. If you want to convince them to give you what they want, you need to provide a reason for them to do so. Selfishness is not a good way to convince people to help you.

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How is forcing people to help anymore helpful and healthy? How is saying "Hey, you can go and play football, but only if you take your little brother with you" helpful?

Dont get me wrong, I understand and know why those mechanics are in place - but you cant make people help other people. By not giving them a choice its basically telling them "Hey, your intrests are worth less to us than those of the person who just joined the game three weeks ago" - and how is that a good attitude?

And its not even helpful for new people - not every person who'd like to farm has the patience or the skill to teach new people. They'll get upset, toxic, leave immidiatly or after one wipe... giving those people the option to stay out of learning groups is helpful for both sides. Because then only people who are fine with a slower pace will queue up for not-cleared.

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Originally Posted by Talraen

That's all fine from your perspective, but it's ignoring why these mechanics exist. Square Enix is trying to keep the game healthy. Having players who flatly refuse to help new players is extremely unhealthy for a game like this. That's why there are so many mechanics designed to incentivize helping players.

Which isn't to say you're necessarily wrong regarding the raid finder. But your attitude is literally useless to Square Enix, and they're not going to cater to it because it doesn't help grow the game at all. If you want to convince them to give you what they want, you need to provide a reason for them to do so. Selfishness is not a good way to convince people to help you.

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My attitude is that of someone who is annoyed with entitled people who think there is nothing wrong with forcing vets to teach them. I'm way more likely to take time out of my day to help newbies with ex trials if said newbies have not been ruining my own progress by sneaking into my farm parties (which happens way more often then you think). If SE wants veteran players to help newbies the so called incentives they provide us now are not enough. I can't speak for everyone but when I'm trying to farm Soph Ex for weapons, that 50 (or whatever amount) of bonus tomestones (that I don't even get in the end lmao) in no way compensates me for my 90 minutes spent wiping and never clearing the content. SE needs to throw us a bone here, like the ability to filter newbies out of content as they did with RF. It might not make sense to you but if we can get our runs in without newbies ruining it for us we are a lot happier and more likely to help them out after we get our stuff done. It may sound harsh but it's tough love that benefits everyone in the end.

Don't really care if it ends up in DF or RF.

However, if someone is making a PF that is a farm party that says no bonus, there should be a way to tell who snuck in with bonus if it happens instead of trying to guess who has the bonus. Same thing should happen if someone joins and doesn't meet other entry requirements (such as it not being unlocked). If people keep saying just use PF, PF should provide the tools required to enforce whatever restrictions the party leader wants.

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Originally Posted by Vaer

If people keep saying just use PF, PF should provide the tools required to enforce whatever restrictions the party leader wants.

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I like the idea of adding it to PF. It would make sense, because PF already lets us filter based on minimum ilvl all the way to what party comp the leader wants for their group. Adding in this filter would be extremely beneficial. Wouldn't solve the Duty Complete PUGs but it could still help with the issue of people sneaking into farms for their clear. Which is far more prevalent than some think.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

Let me ask you this then would you say to put the Arr primals in the rf as well then. I dont think youd advocate for that so why with the same fate coming swiftly to these primals should we keep them in the rf when in two months people could care less. Its not necessary , so we should appease farmers for two more months just to make them happy when they couldnt care less once the expansion hits. That's pretty much what everyone is arguing here a small two month window when it has been a certain way for the rf whole existence but you guys cant handle a mere two months.

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If titan ex was in the raid finder it really wouldn't matter at all.

Let me ask you this. How many people queue titan ex or coil t13 in the duty finder?

Without touching party finder because it seems people don't want to ya know create a learning party and just expect duty finder success.

Go and queue them. Tell me how long they take to ding? Probably pull some people queuing mentor roulette to help you fill the party. Does mentor roulette include coil I dunno?

When it does ding though tell me how many attempts it takes to clear it or see it abandoned? Was there a newbie there?

My point is that even though these things might be in the duty finder the likely hood you could get a party and clear it is incredibly low. Because people wanting to farm it simply won't touch the duty finder without the option to filter out newbies.

Putting them in the duty finder ultimately helps no one.

Even for more current content. Queue a12s in the duty finder. Tell me how long that takes to ding. Or how long it takes to clear or get abandoned.... were there newbies?

Pretty sure that no one wanting to farm a12s is going to risk a duty finder group without a completed only option.

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Originally Posted by Vidu

If its not a majority of people who'd use the option in the first place, what harm is done?


It may not take away our chance not to have the cleared-option in RF, but its making farming less convenient and more annyoing.

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The thing about it is we agree on what your saying I have seen first hand in learning parties on zur where dps is so low from dps that not only do u see soar but u see it twice and demons claw. And this is in parties with just one tank, so I get the whole filter part of what your saying players that can perfectly do this content like its a puzzle with ease and finish and destroy it in 5 mins should be able to do this.

Where we disagree is that to me , the time for the filter is up you wont it to continue and it will continue just on new stuff no longer the old stuff and I'm 100 percent ok with that. Because the fact of the matter is that farmers have had things their way ever sense rf was released. Even week one of zur coming out people where already saying no the fight Id say even two days after it was released which is fine. But what Im sayin is that its very rare that people that are a bit slower to grasp on to mechanics etc get a chance to do it in ways they would like. So both sides have arguments to pretty much the same thing , but the difference is , is that farmers have had their filter for 6 months. So now its gone are others to feel bad about this? If a new person posted today in this forums I'm having trouble gettin a que for this or that primal what would be the very next post under it be well why dont you make a learning party.

So I say to you or anyone else on here why dont you make a no bonus party pf is full of them , and if someone sneaks in disband just like a learning party would do the same if things arent gettin anywhere. Its as simple as that , nobody is gona feel sorry for someone late to content and just now doing it people could careless so why expect sympathy from those who are still tryin to clear content and are happy its in duty finder when for so long you have had the perfect set up. You even said yourself you have your birds from ur methods and it worked, so just like people dont care about someone tryin to learn a fight should of been there when everyone else was learning I say to the farmers should of gotten all your birds like Vidu did before they went to Df.

LIke the commercial goes gota be quicker than that , but seriously with the new expansion everyone pretty much has a 100 percent shot at gettin a bird face roll the unsync content 99 times and you have your bird. Its not even rng based like the arr ponies are, but lets be honest someone tryin to make a learning group for a primal or raid thats unsyncable now id say they have about a 5 percent or less chance of that happening. So I think yea in the beginning sure have your filters in the mist, but now SE is just tryin to keep subs and make as many people happy as possible and thats why everything is in the df now more access for everyone the filter will return in sb for those who want it to regain their happiness.

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Originally Posted by Talraen

Square Enix is trying to keep the game healthy. Having players who flatly refuse to help new players is extremely unhealthy for a game like this. That's why there are so many mechanics designed to incentivize helping players.

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the problem with those mechanics and incentives is they aren't worth the time investment....
newbie bonus in Sophia ex for example 100 lore I think it is... spend 90 mins wiping only to get timed out with nothing. or soend 15 minutes in a dungeon and be guaranteed 100 lore at the end.....

it might help some what if you got that newbie bonus regardless of outcome.. if you've spent an hour trying to help that newbie only for the group to fall apart you get nothing.. so in the end the incentive just gets lolled at because its worthless...

on a slightly different note though imo what is really unhealthy for the game is the difficulty curve is basically a horizontal line..... players don't get better as they progress through the game. because everything is deliberately easy... and that creats the massive skill gap that exists and that's why people don't want to help newbies... the level of skill you need to unlock zurvan ex for example is a million miles away from the level of skill you need to clear it.. you basically took a stroll along the beach and suddenly been faced with a sheer vertical cliff and the zurvan ex clear is at the top.. that's unhealthy for the game and all it does is frustrate players because either they feel ecluded cos everyone says no bonus. or b players repeatedly get queied with people that have no clue how to play there jobs.....

the game should get harder as you progress. not stay on the same horizontal line.... if it actually got harder as you progressed it'd be like climbing a hill / mountain and not a impossible cliff soo by the time a player cleared zurvan hard. and unlocked zurvan ex he'd already be maybe 3/4 of the way to the summit of actually clearing zurvan extreme. and in this environment you'd probably find players a lot more willing to help newbies. because those newbies are already 3/4 of the way up a hill instead of stood at the bottom of a great big cliff.

but when its a horizontal line. you really cant blame people for not wanting to risk queieng with newbies... would you let a total stranger you passed on the street fix your car just because they want to do it. or would you want some knowledge that they are actually a compentent mechanic before you even consider letting them near it...... if anything is unhealthy for the game its the learning curve

end of rant....

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Originally Posted by Dzian

If titan ex was in the raid finder it really wouldn't matter at all.

Let me ask you this. How many people queue titan ex or coil t13 in the duty finder?

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Maybe not titan extreme but I joined after hw like I mention and I cleared levi, garuda, ifrit, shiva, and ramuh all in the duty finder and the waits where about 30 mins or so. I never unlocked Odin, but yes I have gotten king moogle as well as Titan extreme in duty finder. So yea sure there wasnt a for sure chance at success, but it still was possible to clear the content through duty finder I dont see where the idea that its impossible to clear something in df. It wasnt even until thordan and up that I even had to use pf for content when they were in rf that I didnt get a que for stuff because it was far less used. So thats why Im scratching my head wondering when rf was even good I guess for sophia and zur and thats about it every other que was far longer than I ever waited in df.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

So I say to you or anyone else on here why dont you make a no bonus party pf is full of them ,and if someone sneaks in disband just like a learning party would do the same if things arent gettin anywhere. Its as simple as that , nobody is gona feel sorry for someone late to content and just now doing it people could careless so why expect sympathy from those who are still tryin to clear content and are happy its in duty finder when for so long you have had the perfect set up. You even said yourself you have your birds from ur methods and it worked, so just like people dont care about someone tryin to learn a fight should of been there when everyone else was learning I say to the farmers should of gotten all your birds like Vidu did before they went to Df.

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Here is the thing though about you telling me "just go and make your farm party in PF" - I can say the same to anyone who wants to learn the fight: "just go and make your learning party inf PF"

PF is offering the option to form the party that suits our needs for both of us. And you're obviously fine with that.
DF, on the other hand is not offering that option for both of us - which is what I'd like to see. Currently DF is only benefitting those who are okay with most likely only seeing the first phase of a fight. Anyone else cant use the DF, making a tool thats supposed to make our game-experience better and easier, completly useless.
DF should be for everyone, right? At least thats what you guys seem to say - but at the same time you're making DF only for first timers who dont care how far they'll get in the fight.

I'm of the opinion that both sides - newbies and vets - should be able to use both tools - DF and PF - at their convenience. Currently you guys agree that its fine that both sides are using the PF in the way that suits them (as in: making learning and no-bonus-farm-parties). Why is asking for that in DF such a horrible thing?
Why does DF has to be a place for everyone who is to lazy to make a learning party? Why is it okay for farmers to exclude themself in PF, but not in DF? Why can I use both tools when I want to see/learn the fight - but am limited to the more inconvenient one as soon as I want to farm? When it didnt has to be that way!

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

So thats why Im scratching my head wondering when rf was even good I guess for sophia and zur and thats about it every other que was far longer than I ever waited in df.

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Raid finder was great. Yoshi said it was a big contributing factor in the clear rates of creator savage (especially 9s and 10s) and hugely popular for Sophia. The highest clears of any extreme primal "in patch"

I cleared Zurvan and even farmed a few wins Zurvan in raid finder and had better success than most farm parties.. 7 of the 10 totems I got for my blm staff were raid finder farms. Maybe because people weren't relying on the 5th dps to carry them. Although Zurvan queues could take a while to fill sometimes. Because most people wanted to solo tank.

But most people that used raid finder for Sophia found farm queues were usually.less than 5 minutes. As read in this thread and several others. That's a good indication of how popular it was..

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Originally Posted by Vidu

Here is the thing though about you telling me "just go and make your farm party in PF" - I can say the same to anyone who wants to learn the fight: "just go and make your learning party inf PF"

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But the roles are just simply reversed now is what Im saying Im guessing no one has touched on the fact that when you qued for the havent cleared yet in rf. You could pretty much expect to not even get one person to join the party as a matter of fact I made a post about it, and their where actually several threads about it. So because of this you could pretty much say raid finder was only for maybe learning the very first week the content came out and after that the already cleared filter was much more used than the havent yet cleared. So this pretty much made rf only for those whom have already cleared the content only, I highly doubt that anyone was getting any ques in the looking for practice portion of the raid finder prior to SE making this change to df.

So Rf was exclusively for farmers only, even tho I know pf works as far as learning content and getting a clear it to is still exclusively for farmers. 90 percent of the parties at any given time in pf are farm parties and go like this, no all mechanics, no the fight, no bonus, if you are bad you will get kicked, bring good dps etc which is fine. So if 90 percent of something is like this you have to also say that its pretty much catered to those whom make these type of parties. I dont see how any new person are returning player could look at even the party finder and be like wow you know what this feature is so welcoming to all players because it simply isnt if we being honest about it.

So now with 2 months left two small months its in duty finder which actually gives everyone in the game access to this content everybody it gives access to. (Prior to this rf havent cleared yet you can x that off the list not gona get a que there. Party finder oh no learning parties on here right now all farms and no bonus parties I cant join a farm yet havent cleared it. )The only option a new player had was to make a learning party and that was it while farmers, and people whom have cleared multiple times have had a strong hold on this content as soon as rf came out and as soon as pf came out.

So now that literally everyone is on the same playing field of access now its a problem with only two months left until the next expansion, things will go right back to as they where before as soon as the new primal comes out. If you dont think that pf and rf overwhelming was in the favor of those whom have already cleared the content then Id challenge you to look at ur pf and to see how many no bonus parties u see compared to learning parties. So with two months left to do when you know this wont happen with brand new storm blood content even if putting in df doesnt benefit everyone, hasnt the features like rf and pf overwhelming benefited them more than those who hadnt cleared content already?


@Dualgunner
Id beg the differ on that one because I have stated all of my arr primals where cleared viva duty finder my bis and ravana was cleared in duty finder many people have stated they have gotten many clears in duty finder. I think the difference is simply this those whom que in duty finder dont expect a clear, if they que but the opportunity to clear. Farmers just simply want for sure clears which is perfectly fine, but just like someone who hasnt even touch the content has to jump leaps and bounds to get their learning parties to result in something that works. Its simply welcome to the club at this point, most of the time farmers wernt gona que for the havent cleared section either. So its no different duty finder ques will be filled a lot faster than tryin to que in rf when u havent cleared the content yet.

Except it doesn't, payton. Now that the queues have no filter, the vets aren't saying "Oh well I'll just queue anyway" they're saying "Okay whatever, I'm just gonna stick with PF farm parties."

DF will be as dead as ever and veteran players will still only queue in DF if they *want* to help teach people. Removing the aforementioned duties from RF has helped nobody, and inconvenienced a few.

I really don't know how many times, or how many different ways I can say:

-- Moving these to Duty Finder did not give them "open access" for "everyone." They were all just as accessible when they were in Raid Finder. Moving them didn't change that.
-- Just because you think that you can't queue in Raid Finder as a Duty Incomplete (guess what, you can), does not in any way exclude you from the content. Don't have a clear? Need one? Want to learn the fight? Queue just isn't wanting to pop? Make a PF for it. With the cross-server Party Finder, it is easier than ever to get people to join and help out. Take some initiative and stop saying that Raid Finder's filtering options prevent you from doing the content. The only thing prevent people from doing the content is apparently their inability to create PFs, and try to get a full party to help them. Which is not that hard.

Unless you are making learning PFs at weird/inactive times on your data center, there will be no difficulty getting people to join. I got my BisEx and RavEx clears back before cross-server Party Finder was a thing (and back when you actually had to do mechanics, and could not just cheese the hell out of the fights). Party took maybe 30 minutes to fill. I received the rest of my clears mostly after the implementation of the cross-server PF. Parties took even less time to fill then.

New people are not being forced to jump through hoops to get their clears. They are just being asked to (and expected to) clear the content just like those who have already cleared it did. And to stop asking for free carries. Stop asking for special treatment. If these "veterans" can clear the content with them in Raid Finder/with filters, so can you.

Even before the implementation of Raid Finder, there were still PFs stating: "Farm party. No bonus. Know entire fight. Know all mechanics, etc.". This is not something new that popped up with the advent of RF. 90% of parties in PF are not farm only; some days there's more learning parties up, and some days there are more farm parties up. Not seeing a learning party for [insert content here] doesn't prevent anyone from making their own PF for it.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

Id beg the differ on that one because I have stated all of my arr primals where cleared viva duty finder my bis and ravana was cleared in duty finder many people have stated they have gotten many clears in duty finder. I think the difference is simply this those whom que in duty finder dont expect a clear, if they que but the opportunity to clear. Farmers just simply want for sure clears which is perfectly fine, but just like someone who hasnt even touch the content has to jump leaps and bounds to get their learning parties to result in something that works. Its simply welcome to the club at this point, most of the time farmers wernt gona que for the havent cleared section either. So its no different duty finder ques will be filled a lot faster than tryin to que in rf when u havent cleared the content yet.

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Those arr ex and bismarck/ravana ex clears you obtained are only because those fights are very trivial at current ilv (or at lv 50 max ilv), so they're kind of in a grey area between "hard contents" and "easy contents." The same thing can be said about a1s farm via DF, for these relatively easy ex/savage contents most people will just ignore any bonuses just like normal dungeons/trials/raids. The problem with DF lies in the actually difficult contents (a3s onwards for example, or some of the coil turns synced) that are quite impossible to clear with people who don't know the fight.

If you allow clear filter in DF/RF, then those easier ex/savage contents will be harder to clear for newer players via DF, since even if they're easy, farmers would most probably still choose to turn the clear filter on. If you leave all hard contents in DF without the clear filter, the actually hard contents' queues will be dead.

In my opinion the former is still better, since new players can make PF for those easier ex/savage contents stating that they have first time bonuses. If I'm farming poetics/lore I'd gladly join a PF for helping someone clear a1s, ravana, or the easier lv 50 ex trials (even synced garuda, ifrit, mog are still easy enough).

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Originally Posted by aleph_null

Those arr ex and bismarck/ravana ex clears you obtained are only because those fights are very trivial at current ilv (or at lv 50 max ilv), so they're kind of in a grey area between "hard contents" and "easy contents." The same thing can be said about a1s farm via DF, for these relatively easy ex/savage contents most people will just ignore any bonuses just like normal dungeons/trials/raids.

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I actually got my Bis and Rav clears back when the content was still difficult, when you could not cheese the mechanics like you can now. I was honestly shocked when I decided to actively farm RavEx for his bird at how ridiculously cheesed the fight could be, and how much of it was skipped. I wasn't at my current ilvl (266) for those clears. Same for the ARR extremes. I cleared all of those at level 50-52 before I even entered Ishgard. It was like: cleared the Hard Modes, now let's clear the Extremes. Did I farm them at current ilvl? Some of them. But some of them I also did, at most, ilvl 110-115. I maybe cleared Ramuh and Shiva in Ironworks, but I know I didn't clear the others with much higher level gear than their minimums (because for the longest time I wore the i90 AF gear because I loved the look; after that I wore the i110 Kirumu set because dat coat.)

My clears were split between making/joining clear PFs and just straight up queuing in DF for them. I know Titan Ex I had to turn to PF for that. But I farmed for Levi's and Shiva's ponies some days just queuing directly into them. I'd just do other stuff while I waited for the queue to pop. I know that the times are different now, but what I'm trying to say is: if I can do it, so can the others. And I am no hardcore raider.

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The problem with DF lies in the actually difficult contents (a3s onwards for example, or some of the coil turns synced) that are quite impossible to clear with people who don't know the fight.

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That's the way the content was designed though. It was not designed for people to go in blind, wipe maybe once or twice, and then clear. It was not made for people to just randomly queue into them like they would Expert Roulette, and clear with no communication whatsoever. Even groups for Creator Savage (barring those insane World First groups, but the more common statics that only Raid a couple hours a night, 2-3 days a week) are still working on progression for some of the later tiers. Some groups I know took months to clear A9S and A10S; even longer for A11S. But this doesn't mean the content excludes new people. They are more than capable of either forming their own learning PF for just whoever feels up to it that day, or for even forming their own static.

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If you allow clear filter in DF/RF, then those easier ex/savage contents will be harder to clear for newer players via DF, since even if they're easy, farmers would most probably still choose to turn the clear filter on. If you leave all hard contents in DF without the clear filter, the actually hard contents' queues will be dead.

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I wouldn't say the first part of this is necessarily true. I still see clear parties for BisEx or A9S or even super old ones like A4S. For a while, PFs for A4S clears => Glamour/Mount Farms were pretty common. And this was semi-recently on my data center. They may not be as common as the "A11S speed clears, 2-point strat" or "Zurvan Ex farm; no bonus, skip soar or disband" groups, but they aren't completely non-existent.

I like joining clear parties some days. Especially if it's something I don't have a clear for. If people made PFs to clear Midas Savage or Gordias Savage or even Second Coil Savage, I would join them. Sure my experience wouldn't be the same as clearing them during their tier, but I could still experience the fight nonetheless. Like-minded people are out there, but you gotta take the initiative to find them, and not just expect them to pop up for you.

I would expect farm parties to use the Duty Complete filter (regardless of where it is implemented, be it RF, DF, or PF). After all, their goal is to farm. They aren't looking to teach. So people really can't--and shouldn't--fault them for that. Just like the clear/learning parties. People shouldn't join them and expect a one-pull clear, and for the party to turn into some fast-paced farm group. They should expect wipes, and they should be ready to teach.

Filters or no filters, neither of those groups are going to change when it comes to goals. And I don't think taking away filters will increase or decrease the amount of clears achieved. If people are that determined to clear something, they will certainly find a way. The filters are there more so for convenience so people can be like "I feel like teaching today; let's roll Duty Incomplete and have some fun" or "I really just want to farm [content] today; I don't feel up for teaching people how to clear it, so I'm going to roll Duty Complete."


EDIT/ADDITION: Since I have reached my posting limit today (seriously, can this not be a thing... it's like I have to pick and choose what to respond to... but anyways), thanks for the clarification aleph_null. :3 I wasn't trying to sound rude or abrasive or confrontational. Whether your comment was directed at me or not, I just responded with my opinion on things. Guess I shouldn't have assumed it was just because it was posted after mine. ^^;;;

@bswpayton: I give up. I don't know how to get you to understand that you still had access to content in the Raid Finder, regardless of whether or not you were "late" to the content. If you couldn't get the Incomplete queue to pop, you still had Party Finder to help you get a group together of like-minded individuals that want to learn the fight, whether it be with the help of guides/veterans or just straight up blind. If you did not have the PF option, and Ex primals could only be entered via the Raid Finder, then yeah, maybe you would have run into some issues. Or maybe, people like you who are not clearing the content at zero-hour, would have faster queues, because that would be the only avenue for the duties. As it is now, though, that is not the case. The option was always there: RF or PF. Like others have said, back when Ex primals were only in DF, some of them had extremely long queues, and some never popped at all (Thordan Ex), similar to the situation now. What did those people probably do? They probably turned to Party Finder at that point, looking for help/people. If they decided to just whine and pout and not do anything to rectify their situation, then that's on them. Not others, not the system.

I don't care about if the primals are in Raid Finder or Duty Finder or if they make some Special Shiny Ex Primal Finder for it. Same for Savage. But if I want to make a farm, and guarantee to filter out bonuses from my farm because I don't feel like wiping for 60 minutes with no clears, or I don't feel like teaching that day and just want to get my loot, then I think I should have the option to do so. And that's not discriminatory, or exclusionary. The same would go for clear/learning groups if they wanted to just get people together that haven't cleared the content at all, jumping in completely blind and ready for any surprises. I've met people like that before. And it applies to those learning parties that have veterans join and expect a one-hit-KO for SephEx and then throw a fit when that doesn't happen, and they're reminded that it was a LEARNING party. Filter out vets, include only new people. It can go both ways.

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Originally Posted by Vidu

I
Having the cleared-option in the DF isnt taking away the chance of people who want to learn the fight either - stop making it sound as if there is one newbie and 99 vety queueing and if they're all gone, newbie is all alone and cant learn the fight (unless they go into PF and make a learning party for it)

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That's exactly whats happening. In RF, if you haven't cleared, the learning queues never pop(or take hours). How are people supposed to learn if they can't even get into the content?

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I really don\\'t know how many times, .

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We are just repeating ourselves Ive mention that I myself have used pf to clear sep, thordan, Sophia, have filled up zur parties as well. But that was my only option period, rf was not for anyone late to content. This is what I\\'ve been saying so not only did farmers have raid finder but also had ninty percent of the pf parties as well. I have never seen more learning parties than farm parties in the history of playing this game. So again the probality of someone getting in a trail viva duty finder is higher than , getting in through raid finder as uncleared.

Many threads have complained about rf this is the first one I've ever seen complaining about duty finder. So like I said the roles have shifted for those whom simply want to just have access the have more access now and farmers aren\\'t as in control just for two mere months I don\\'t see how that\\'s a problem. The trend will end as soon as storm blood hits the same people who are complaining here will be the same ones advocating for new players to just simply run the content unsync and move on to the hw Primals. Thats all I heard from these forums was to get over it the content is old move on to this new stuff. So I will repeat whats been said to me the content is old and irrelevant so why get upset about it new stuffs on the way

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Originally Posted by Brill_

That's exactly whats happening. In RF, if you haven't cleared, the learning queues never pop(or take hours). How are people supposed to learn if they can't even get into the content?

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By using PF for learning parties, for example.

And before you tell me that the farm people have to make their farm-parties in PF, let me rephrase your statment their: How are people supposed to farm if they're getting people who cant even clear the content?

DF should be for everyone, yet it isnt. While yes, everyone can queue for it - not everyone can queue for it with their intrest being represented.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

Many threads have complained about rf this is the first one I've ever seen complaining about duty finder.

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Opposite for me.

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So like I said the roles have shifted for those whom simply want to just have access the have more access now and farmers aren\\'t as in control just for two mere months I don\\'t see how that\\'s a problem.

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"In control"? This isn't us vs them this is the removal of a feature that helps separate players with different goals. You say vanilla df is more likely to pop? Vets who want to farm still aren't going to queue into DF, so vanilla DF will be just as dead as you claim RF Uncleared to be, for the exact same reasons. It helps no one and only hurts solo players who want to farm things.

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The trend will end as soon as storm blood hits the same people who are complaining here will be the same ones advocating for new players to just simply run the content unsync and move on to the hw Primals.

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That's a nice generalization.

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Thats all I heard from these forums was to get over it the content is old move on to this new stuff. So I will repeat whats been said to me the content is old and irrelevant so why get upset about it new stuffs on the way

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"I'm telling you to get over it because the content is old and there's new stuff around the corner because that's what I was told." Is the same logic of "I was bullied so that's why I'm shoving your head in a toilet and flushing." Child logic. Also I hate that "new content is around the corner" argument: it's not here -yet-. It might be a better argument if the release date was next week, but it isn't. There's still what, two months? That's a long time to start throwing up your hands and saying "LOL there'll be new stuff here eventually so who gives a crap! :DDD"

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

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Sorry I didn't see your post, my post wasn't replying to yours. But in short I agree that the clear filter is QOL for people who have cleared contents since they actually have a choice of not having to teach people when they queue in DF, instead of having to create a PF for farm.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

Many threads have complained about rf this is the first one I've ever seen complaining about duty finder. So like I said the roles have shifted for those whom simply want to just have access the have more access now and farmers aren\\'t as in control just for two mere months I don\\'t see how that\\'s a problem. The trend will end as soon as storm blood hits the same people who are complaining here will be the same ones advocating for new players to just simply run the content unsync and move on to the hw Primals. Thats all I heard from these forums was to get over it the content is old move on to this new stuff. So I will repeat whats been said to me the content is old and irrelevant so why get upset about it new stuffs on the way

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Just to clarify a bit, whether new stuffs are on the way or not (they always are, every few months), I still feel that current end game contents should be in RF (or if RF is integrated into DF, I'd like to see different queues for practice/clear/farm). Maybe for all the savage floors and the last few ex trials at least.

As for recommending people to do previous expansion contents unsync, it's because at different level caps jobs play really differently and most of the time I'd argue it's not worth relearning your job for lower level cap just to clear the hardest contents. Unless maybe you have cleared all the current end game contents and are no longer interested in them (weird composition runs, speed kills, weird strats etc). If a new player joins my fc and asks about coils or lv 50 relics, I'd honestly recommend them to leave those behind or help them unsynced, since the rewards are not relevant anymore and they could spend the time to catch up to current contents and prepare for the next patch/expansion. Even the skills you learn for raiding at lower level caps may not be applicable to raiding at current level cap, since some jobs change a lot between their lv 50 and lv 60 playstyle/rotation. Of course if they're okay with holding off their progress just to clear those fights synced that's fine too, but that could very likely mean they'll be left behind in the next patch/expansion so I'll at least let them know about that "risk."

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Originally Posted by Talraen

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To be fair, I don't think the community is not as toxic as you make it out to be, FFxiv probably has one of the best community around, I'm speaking from personal experiences from many games big or small. Yes bonus incentives are nice when you're doing easier content but on savages and Ex trials they are often not worth it, why spend 60mins in a lock out for 100lores when I can just queue ARL for 150 in 30mins.

I've cleared everything most of my content in RF, I never had a static and despite my real life commitments I still invested time to study fights and make the effort to practice, google for japanese strats watch videos and understand them. I never had the luxury to run with the player compositions, strategy or the quality of players I want, I play in a JP server and have poor command of the japanese language but I still make an effort to improve my japanese and converse with them.

I think it all comes down to the mind set of the players, you can brood all day, blaming the system, the community and possibly the difficulty of the game by at the end of the day it all comes down to how much effort you're willing to put into something. That is the effort I put in hoping I don't pull 7 other people down with me, to me if you don't put in effort in the things that you want, obviously you don't want it enough.

That being said I enjoy helping people, I'd love for the playerbase to improve but I do not want to be put in a situation where I am forced to help when I really just want to get things done and every fight I queue for starts at ground zero ( at least for trials and savages). My advice is that you should try queueing for HW trials (not bismack and ravana) and Alexander savages and you'll see where I am going, quite often you'll meet people put in little to no effort to read up, go in blindly and expect a clear.

I don't want to sound like a broken record but.. I will say this again, no one complained about RF when it was placed be it casual or by "elite" players, meaning difficult contents is where it should be and RF was a good filter in a sense, people are complaining now because DF is a nightmare with those content. My words have some weight in them because I am an extremely helpful person in a way I try to give back to the community, I do things for free, carry people on a double seater mount to unlock aether currents, I can go on about this but that is beside the point. I have been queuing DF and it has been burning me out mentally because I am thrown in a situation where I am forced to help the majority of the time. My advice to you is, go and queue alex savage, thordan, sep and nidhog then maybe your opinion might change.

Lastly I don't want to be burnt out like what has happened to most veterans in this game, it becomes counter productive when you burn your veterans till the point where they don't want to ever step in.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

Opposite for me.


"In control"? This isn't us vs them this is the removal of a feature that helps separate players with different goals. You say vanilla df is more likely to pop? Vets

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Despite the logic the people who control the pf and the rf are just not getting their way at the moment for two months and thats all. There was no patch note that came out saying that from here on out that primals will be in duty finder from here on out we all know that isnt the case. If people that haven't cleared things now and dont do it in the next few months then the chances of gettin a sync clear of these same runs are pretty slim. I personally had to go out of my way to use that pesky duty finder to clear all of the arr primals sync.

Other people will not be as willing to do the same thing and now is their only chance. Bird farmers on the other hand have a 100 percent chance to get every single bird because of the totem system thats even better than the rng ponies. So you tell me why should we feel sorry for those complaining on here your chance to get your birds increase 100 percent. While if things stayed the way they where the chance of someone wanted a sync clear would be far less. You guys arent losing anything other than the ability to cut people out of content thats been out for months Im sorry if thats so horrible to you but I just cant be concerned about it nor should others. No one here that hasnt cleared a certain piece of content is seeing their goals represented in the party finder nor rf while the bird farmers are weapon farmers have had what they wanted overwhelming represented in the pf and rf. So its just a matter of timing the time is up and just like someone who hasnt cleared something has to get over that 90 percent of the parties on pf dont want them and that nobody is gona que up for a rf practice session you guys gota bite the bullet to.

After all that is fairness right are do you just want your own interest represented only the whole time in the game. Like I said where is the post on raiders asking them to stop nerfing savage so people cant clear it , their arent any because nobody cares at this point. So I dont see why anyone cares about this temporary duty finder shift for content thats been out for months. I assure you that I qued up for nidhogg extreme the other day just to see if I could tell the difference from raid finder and I could. Whereas rf produces not even one extra person to even join duty finder will fill up just like it does for arr primals. ITs just like I said the roles have reversed you cant control the way the game plays to your advantage all the time sometimes others have to get their shot to.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

Despite the logic the people who control the pf and the rf are just not getting their way at the moment for two months and thats all.

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Did you read past that point in the quote? Or did you stop there and decide to springboard off that to rant? Cuz fair enough if you did, but you missed the point of my post at the same time*. Taking the duties out of RF helps nobody, and as I've repeated before, experienced people aren't just gonna start queueing df because "Oh well no RF". Anyone queueing into DF expects the exact same they did when they queued into Uncleared RF.

This isn't about "control" it's not "us versus them". The thread was made asking to put the mentioned HW duties back in because they are still difficult to try and pug, infinitely moreso when the knowledge of your party members is also in question.

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If people that haven't cleared things now and dont do it in the next few months then the chances of gettin a sync clear of these same runs are pretty slim. I personally had to go out of my way to use that pesky duty finder to clear all of the arr primals sync.

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I'm glad you got your clears! Now go get your ponies with only DF.

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Other people will not be as willing to do the same thing and now is their only chance. Bird farmers on the other hand have a 100 percent chance to get every single bird because of the totem system thats even better than the rng ponies.

So you tell me why should we feel sorry for those complaining on here your chance to get your birds increase 100 percent.

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Uhm...what?

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While if things stayed the way they where the chance of someone wanted a sync clear would be far less. You guys arent losing anything other than the ability to cut people out of content thats been out for months Im sorry if thats so horrible to you but I just cant be concerned about it nor should others.

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No, the only people losing things are solo players. People who haven't cleared still have just as low a chance of clearing through DF, probably even lower than with uncleared RF. I'm sorry you're not too terribly concerned about a feature that affects nobody but the solo player but I guess that's the fate of the solo player--to be overlooked in favor of the flood of new players.

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No one here that hasnt cleared a certain piece of content is seeing their goals represented in the party finder nor rf while the bird farmers are weapon farmers have had what they wanted overwhelming represented in the pf and rf.

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So it's an argument from envy? The glorious Have-Cleared Master Race MUST come down from their Ivory Towers to bless us with their untold powers of Git Gud! I'm sorry but no, it doesn't work like that.

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So its just a matter of timing the time is up and just like someone who hasnt cleared something has to get over that 90 percent of the parties on pf dont want them and that nobody is gona que up for a rf practice session you guys gota bite the bullet to.

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I recall a screenshot earlier where ten highlighted parties were all learning/clear parties. It's also easy enough to make your own learning party, PF isn't gonna smack you across the face and say "NO go use the RF unclear you filthy peasant" nor does it say "NO go use the DF you filthy peasant!"

And what the shit is this 'bite the bullet too' crap? People who cleared *DID* bite the bullet when they learned these fights themselves. They--nor anyone else--needs to beg and plead with other people who have cleared to come carry them through.

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After all that is fairness right are do you just want your own interest represented only the whole time in the game. Like I said where is the post on raiders asking them to stop nerfing savage so people cant clear it , their arent any because nobody cares at this point. So I dont see why anyone cares about this temporary duty finder shift for content thats been out for months.

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After all that is fairness right...right.

DF is no better than RF uncleared, with the logic I've posted before backing me up. People aren't going to suddenly go "Oh okay, no clear filter might as well just roll the dice!" They're going to abandon the df altogether in favor of farm and clear parties, and the only uncleared that benefits are people who hop on trying to go unnoticed and ruining other people's time.

Removing these duties from the RF has benefited no one. And obviously some people do care or we wouldn't have a 19 page discussion about it right now.

EDIT: To add on page 1 as of this post is a request to nerf POTD Floor 50 boss. The overwhelming response to it is "No don't." Despite the content being what, 2 major patches old at this point they don't want that nerfed. But that's "old content" now, so why should they care?

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I assure you that I qued up for nidhogg extreme the other day just to see if I could tell the difference from raid finder and I could.

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Sweet! Got recorded times and numbers? As well as several trials to make sure it wasn't a fluke?

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Whereas rf produces not even one extra person to even join duty finder will fill up just like it does for arr primals. ITs just like I said the roles have reversed you cant control the way the game plays to your advantage all the time sometimes others have to get their shot to.

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A) If RF unclear isn't popping, your best shot is PF. "That's what you *hiss* RAIDERS should do too!" We do. That's where we get memes like "Skip soar or disband" from.
B ) I'm sorry but I don't quite believe your anecdote from before nor do I believe that your anecdote counts. Difference is vague. How much better was the queue? Was it an instant pop? Did all seven other players know/not know the fight and did you clear it?

*It's like you just broke down and threw a temper tantrum at me. "I'm angry because you cleared things and want an option for solo queueing, well guess what 100% haven't cleared this primal so you should suffer until you make sure each and every last person--YES EVEN THE GILBOT sdfhcbkehbdckj Mckjehbvkwjev clears this primal so then you can know everyone can do it!"

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

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What?.. Go search reddit and this forum on RF.
Pertaining to your other post, No doing ARR primals unsync isn't as hard as it was back then, one reason being that some classes received a buffed over the span of 3.0-3.57, introduction of Astrologian is one factor. Ravana ex was quite difficult during it's release, you're doing ravana at like 100-120i levels then it used to be done at lol, why do you think pubs can fail ravana normal?

Well technically HW primals still is relevant, since well primal birds. Stormblood has yet to hit so this "trend" isn't over we have like alittle less than 2 months to go you know lol.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

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What is this nonsense again?
I'm sorry, but I start getting really annoyed and angry with you because I feel I have explained this to often already - but lets go again, shall we?
I'll try to keep it simple:
- We have people who want to farm and those who simply want to clear.
- People who want to farm were able to use RF before to do that - now they cant anymore.
- They were queueing with RF because they were able to achieve their goal - to farm - using that option.
- Current DF does not represent their desired option, so they wont queue at all.
- Newbies arent benefitting from them either way - and if they are benefitting from someone who would have prefered to queue with "cleared"-only, that person right now is doing something they did not want to do. In their freetime. In a video game. That they're playing to have fun. This is messed up - that the game would forced them into groups they dont want to be in. How can you be okay with this at all?

The way you're wording this it also sounds a lot like "The only chance for newbies to clear this content now is to have random experienced people help/carry them in DF" - Isaid this before: This is insulting for everyone. Its insulting for the new player, you're so worried about because its patronising them - "Oh, but they cant clear this if you vets arent willing to help them!" - bullshit. We had to learn this fights on our own and we managed. And you know what? If someone isnt able to clear this on their own without a "hardcore-elitist-raider" holding their hand, they shouldnt get the clear. Period. How do you think we got those clears?
If you want something that the majority isnt intrested in right now, you have to put a little more effort into that - if more people are intrested in farming that content than in learning/teaching it, thats to bad for those who are the miniority. But again: this is a game, it shouldnt artificial make people help others by removing their option to decide against that.

Should everyone who is bird farming right now quit the game btw and come back with SB? Because its only two more months? They wouldnt help new people get their kills that way either, but at least their not elitist jerks that way because they put their own intrests infront of those of other people, I guess...
And since you always claimed that you, personally, wouldnt want to get rewards like the birds when doing content unsyched, you should have more empathy for people who want to get their birds now - when they're still having some prestige and require you to do the content properly. I wanted to get my birds the proper way - waiting for SB wasnt an option and SB itself would have killed my chance to farm them synched completly. Doing primals synched to get one kill is still very possible - I just helped some people with Shiva and Ramuh EX synched two weeks ago! - but getting a synched farm-party together? Yeah, sure...

To sum it up: IF (and that is a big IF) queuetimes are getting better in DF now, it is because people, who dont want to be there are there because its now they're only option (if we dont count PF - but since DF seems to be the only option for those who want to get their first time clear, we can ignore that PF exists, right?). And if its not even getting better them moving the EX-primals from RF to DF accomplished nothing - or at least nothing positive because it only took away a convenient tool from people who would have liked to use it.

I deleted a previous post just so I could respond to this. Because I am seriously losing my patience, and I am going to explain this stuff to you one more time. Maybe this time it will sink in. Sorry if my post comes off as rude; I am not trying to be. But this is ridiculous.

To everyone else, I apologize in advance for the wall of text.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

Despite the logic the people who control the pf and the rf are just not getting their way at the moment for two months and thats all.

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No one controls Party Finder or Duty Finder. I have no idea where you get that impression. I wasn't aware that Savage raiders had taken over PF, and transformed it into something were only those select elite can farm A12S.

Two months is still two months. It's not two weeks. It's not two days. It's two months. Two months that this content cannot be ran unsynced, and cheesed so hard it'll make people sick. Two months for people to farm for the things they want (birds, ponys, glamour items, whatever), so that they can focus on the 4.0 Ex primals and the 4.0 Savage tier when they are released. I don't know how else to say that just because you think the content becomes irrelevant two months after release does not actually make it so.

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There was no patch note that came out saying that from here on out that primals will be in duty finder from here on out we all know that isnt the case. If people that haven't cleared things now and dont do it in the next few months then the chances of gettin a sync clear of these same runs are pretty slim. I personally had to go out of my way to use that pesky duty finder to clear all of the arr primals sync.

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People in this thread, including you, are advocating for the complete removal of Raid Finder, and saying that us "veterans" or us "mentors" are obligated to teach/carry new people through Savage or Ex primals because the content is "dated." People, including you, are saying that we are "discriminating" and "excluding" new people when we say we want the option to queue Duty Complete; because we want the option for farm X primal in 8-10 minute runs max for loot, rather than wipe for 60 minutes during phase one, or an add phase, or even final phase.

I'm sorry that you had to go "out of your way" to get ARR Ex primal synced clears. But, unfortunately, the experience of one does not encompass the experiences of others. The same can be said for me being ABLE to get SYNCED clears for the Ex primals during patch 3.1, way after the content was "relevant" and when it was "dated." Perhaps this is when you should have sought out FCs or LS, made friends, and gotten people together to help you. Instead of coming here and complaining about how hard of a time you had.

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Other people will not be as willing to do the same thing and now is their only chance.

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Other people will also NOT be as willing (or willing at all) to be forced to accommodate new players when they want to farm, regardless if they are farming on Day 1, or 4.0 release day. Doesn't matter.

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Bird farmers on the other hand have a 100 percent chance to get every single bird because of the totem system thats even better than the rng ponies. So you tell me why should we feel sorry for those complaining on here your chance to get your birds increase 100 percent.

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Perhaps I should remind you that the token system was not always the case. I think it was implemented sometime between Nidhogg Ex and Sophia Ex, though I would need to look at patch notes to be sure.

And yeah, maybe it's "guaranteed" because people that want to farm the birds can get them once they reach 99 tokens. But if they're constantly thrown into parties with 2-4 new people that can't even make it past phase one, that could take an extremely long time, if they don't get frustrated/burnt out first. Thus why people make FARM parties and explicitly say NO BONUS, and want to queue with DUTY COMPLETE filters on. Because people sneak into farm parties all the time, and if you don't figure out who they are to blacklist, they can just rejoin the party after you disband and reform.

I didn't have to buy any of my birds, because I was "lucky," I guess. However, I had almost 90 tokens when I won Sephirot's bird, 75 tokens when I won Thordan's bird, and 150 tokens (this isn't counting the ones that I spent on weapons) for Sophia's bird--which I won BEFORE she was placed in the token system.

Maybe people want to farm their birds before they're put on token systems. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Nothing at all.

And pony drop rates are not even that bad. I see them drop all the time when I'm just running stuff for Wonderous Tails. I didn't have to farm any of them 90 times, or 75 times, or 150+ times for the ponies. Hardest one for me was Ramuh, and even then, it wasn't half of the runs I spent for some of the birds. (It's extremely depressing to just watch that whistle hit the floor, though.)

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While if things stayed the way they where the chance of someone wanted a sync clear would be far less. You guys arent losing anything other than the ability to cut people out of content thats been out for months Im sorry if thats so horrible to you but I just cant be concerned about it nor should others.

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If you can't be "concerned" about us wanting smooth, clean farm clears (which we have the right to), then I can't be "concerned" with you wanting to clear at all (even though you have the right to). Veterans are not required to hold newbies hands. Mentors are not always required to teach sprouts, only when they are under mentor status/in a mentor roulette is it expected of them to help out. If it's mandatory for veterans and mentors to hold newbies hands, and written somewhere in the ToS now, please point it out. /s

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No one here that hasnt cleared a certain piece of content is seeing their goals represented in the party finder nor rf while the bird farmers are weapon farmers have had what they wanted overwhelming represented in the pf and rf.

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Make. Your. Own. Party. Then.
Don't see a SephEx clear party in Pf? Then make one.
Problem solved.

I actually looked at PF a few times the 2 hours or so I've been logged on, and in that time I saw CLEAR and LEARNING PARTIES for Nidhogg, Sophia, Sephirot, and Thordan.

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So its just a matter of timing the time is up and just like someone who hasnt cleared something has to get over that 90 percent of the parties on pf dont want them and that nobody is gona que up for a rf practice session you guys gota bite the bullet to.

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I don't know where you keep pulling out this 90% number from, but be prepared to back it up, since you bring it up so much.

I just checked my data center's PF for trials. As of right now, there are 2 Nidhogg learning parties up, 1 Zurvan learning/clear party up, and 2 Sephirot learning/clear parties up. There is also an individual who has made a Thordan bird farm, and IN THE DESCRIPTION SAID: "Already have the bird; just here to help out!" That 6 parties open to helping newbies/help people get birds. Out of 21 available parties. Take out the WT ones (there are 7), and that makes it 14. 6 out of 14 parties for HW Ex primals geared towards those that want to learn, or want the bird. That's almost 50% of the PFs. People just wanting to help.

http://i.imgur.com/E0cdimA.pngpic #1

http://i.imgur.com/O5ESANb.pngpic #2

The last three are two WT parties, and a Lootmaster bird farm.

And this isn't even counting Savage, but I did see an A9S learning and an A11S learning party earlier. Don't have picture proof, unfortunately. I'm sorry if your data center is different, but I'm sure that the learning/clear and even "help people get birds" parties are far from non-existent.

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After all that is fairness right are do you just want your own interest represented only the whole time in the game. Like I said where is the post on raiders asking them to stop nerfing savage so people cant clear it , their arent any because nobody cares at this point.

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Why on earth would raiders demand that SE not nerf SAVAGE CONTENT just so it's unclearable by all except the best of the best. Even when content is relevant on Day 1, there are no such threads. I have no idea where this came from either.

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So I dont see why anyone cares about this temporary duty finder shift for content thats been out for months. I assure you that I qued up for nidhogg extreme the other day just to see if I could tell the difference from raid finder and I could. Whereas rf produces not even one extra person to even join duty finder will fill up just like it does for arr primals.

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Except people keep saying to remove RF entirely, and keep ALL content in DF, Ex primals, Savage raids, everything. You, yourself, said you would prefer that.

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ITs just like I said the roles have reversed you cant control the way the game plays to your advantage all the time sometimes others have to get their shot to.

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So...now it's okay for you (meaning, those without [content] clears) to "control" the way the game plays to your advantage. I mean, the game was never played to farmers advantages either. Just because you can't seem to make your own learning PF for [content] while it's not "dated" doesn't mean that the raiders and farmers are "in control" of anything.


Addition: My advocating isn't for Raid Finder. If you have read any of my posts, you would know that. My advocating is for letting those who want to FARM do so without having to worry about bonuses crashing their farm parties. Secondly, I was referring to you specifically in some aspects of my post, bswpayton, but most were general you's. Because you are not the only one who wants RF (and filters) removed because of a false, preconceived notion that veterans and mentors and raiders "control" things.

I only referred to you, personally, on things where you talked about things you had to do, and things you thought (so, anywhere where you used "I" or "me" or "my").

To clarify again I am not talkin about myself here I have cleared every extreme primal in hw but two and I have yet to even do one of them. I cleared a9s first attempt in a learning party , I am not arguing on my behalf really. If I want to clear something I have made learning parties for thordan, sep, sophia, and a9s, a10s. I know how to use the party finder Im not sure why this keeps coming up , and I have used this feature because the very feature that you guys are advocating for is trash for anyone who is working on a fight. I have stated I know very well that in these primals with their raid focus mechanics and stacks are much less forgiving on one persons mistakes than those that were in Arr.

I know that one person can screw up a sep farm by not grabing towers, I know that, two people can ruin zur if they dont do soar correctly. I have done this content just like you guys , I am just simply not a farmer I just would rather get my clear and be done with it instead of dealing with such toxic behavior that is in this game. Thats a personal thing and duty finder works you guys are just assuming that it does not the thing is that like I said it isnt a one shot it isnt gona end in success every time that is the only difference. So to the perfectionist sure thats a waste of time but to everyone else its their only way to learn. So what I am simply sayin no people dont need a vet to hold their hands to guide them through content, but lets be real only a certain amount of people even touch this content so sometimes paths will cross in duty finder. Because the difference here is the same bashing your head against the wall that you may have experienced isnt afforded to new players it isnt afforded to those in the novice network currently. They dont get a break , they dont even get a chance period, so when new stuff comes out how bout dismiss yourself from a party if u make one mistake in a fight while your learning. See the thing is you wouldnt its ok when you want to learn something but oh god forbid someone else wants that same chance.

Nobody is asking for a hand being held they are just asking to be included, which in rf they were not in pf maybe but not the majority. So now its in duty finder , the option is there not to que like many have said but it still gives those whom havent seen the fight access and at this point that is more important than someone farming birds when they can get their birds any time. Someone tryin to clear these fights sync once new stuff comes out is less than 50 percent ask ur friends how many of them went back and ran the old arr primals sync if they came once hw was already out for a while. Every one I know did wat the majority was doing unsync wouldnt even thiink about a sync clear. So lets not act like it wont be any different in sb, so with access even if a new player doesn't clear their fist time they still had access where as with rf its an instant rejection period.

So with that access they could then make progression groups instead of learning groups and then eventually clear. Where as if they are sittin in a que for 5 hours they get no access and cant make such a party. So like I said before if someone wanted their birds should of got it before that duty finder came a calling. I just dont feel sorry for it just like nobody feels sorry are cares about those whom want their clear these last two months before the expansion. And Im a mentor to btw , and I do spend a good bit of my time helping others its not required but thats how I like to play the game. Thats neither here nor there , but this is all about options here , before the option of the uncleared person was very limited now they at least have two. I cant say the same about those whom farm content , their option and their mean spirited parties with the rudeness has always been there and will always be there which is fine its not so much the filter its more so the language on that part. But at the end of the day SE has made this choice and its one that is good , Its only two months then things will go back to as they where before. Like I said how you guys seem to be feeling now is the same way that anyone would feel that loooked at the party finder and saw how vile people can be. If you really think the rf works for new people are those whom havent cleared make an alt and just let your computer sit until the que pops for you or even one person joins the group.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

snip.

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This post is so littered with hypocrisy and entitlement/contradiction it's sick. So basically if you didn't get your stuff before it made it into DF too bad so sad. You no longer matter. Which group was the selfish one again? (The answer is painfully obvious and this question is rhetorical.)

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

I can't read this shit without winding myself, please please PLEASE learn to break up text walls

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I just realized, you say 90% of people haven't cleared, but the 10% that have are somehow cutting the 90% out of clearing?

EDIT: I'll amend to insinuate, as the argument you're making relies on what I've said before as the premise, however I cannot find a direct quote of you saying that.

I like how this community somehow feels that everyone is obligated to help whether it is in our nature to do so, like it or not. And right now it is somehow our fault if we don't get our bird before it was brought to duty finder wow lolol.

Bswpayton you probably posted one of the most contradicting and hypocritical post in this thread, I have farmed my stuff through RF and even learnt the fights from there. You seem extremely aggressive towards a certain group of people (the veterans) but it still does not justify the choices of your words, well guess it was my fault I didn't get my birds before all of this, not RNG or not the people who outrolled me, yup totally my fault lol.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

A wall of contradiction and hypocrisy ಠ_ಠ

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You're one of the reason why we can't have nice things.

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I like how this community somehow feels that everyone is obligated to help whether it is in our nature to do so, like it or not.

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Not the community, only spoiled little kids spitting at the face of players who learn fights, while expecting them to carry their ass later because , you know, they can't be bothered spending time to earn something :D

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Originally Posted by Mejingjard

Not the community, only spoiled little:D

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How people think that those who like duty finder want a carry is beyond me

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

How people think that those who like duty finder want a carry is beyond me

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Same could be said to you. How you think that everything in RF is toxic, every veterans or "farmer" are perfectionist/elitist who are incapable of teaching and how not getting a bird mount before DF is beyond me. It is like you never really read through the point others have brought across for the past 19 pages, shoving all the valid reasoning aside and just went about what you think the Veteran community is like.

Look I don't know what you went through in your server to so pessimistic about the people you label as farmer and perfectionist, but I assure you that you are exaggerating it. Seriously do you have any idea how absurd this sounds, " people who control the pf and the rf are just not getting their way at the moment for two months and thats all".

If you claim savage and extreme trials to be so toxic and now that the "People who were initially controlling RF & PF" have moved to DF why are you even doing EX trials if you are trying to deter from toxicity yet claim that it is from these places is where toxicity is spewed from? You generalise things too easily, yet cry foul when claim that the elitist outcast the "casual" players?

Let me get one thing straight, the elitist players that made you this bitter does not represent the majority of the veterans, neither do you represent the players who you claim to be in the same category as you, because not everyone share the same opinion as you do. So stop being stereotypical.

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Originally Posted by OMGAFLYINGPENGUIN

Same could be said to you. How you think that everything in RF is toxic, every veterans or "farmer" are perfectionist/elitist who are incapable of teaching and how not getting a bird mount before DF is beyond me. It is like you never really read through the point others .

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I have done my content with friends are fc members or in pf groups where for the most part people are super cool and chill if it doesn't work out it just doesn't. But lets be honest here if a brand new level one player where to glance at the pf when it has 20 or more parties up how would they get the impression that as far as high level content they would be accepted. Anyone that knows how to read can clearly see the writing on the wall in the pf that basically says as far as we are concerned dont even que up for this content.

People are really over exaggerating the amount of learning parties that are up at any given time on average there are way less learning parties than there are farm parties. The very next day after zur came out it was already parties saying to know the fight , actually some the very same day. And the very same people on here that are sayin they want that filter back for two months are also claiming that people just want a carry.

I dont know about other people but I main tanks or healers and nobody is carrying me through any content. I personally dont even count unsync clears nor clears where I was dead at the end of the fight as a clear so I certainly am not looking for a carry this assumption i just wrong. So that very accusation that people just need these great amazing vet players to clear content or they are doom is the same attitude thats in the pf.

People just need slots to fill up doesn't matter if you are new are vet whatever people just need access to content, the way most of the people in here would have it is the only access someone who doesnt know a fight is to make a learning party and thats it. But yet they are totally fine with having the rf locked up and the party finder locked up for themselves but everyone else must have a single option. Well SE has spoken and just like the nerfed the raids, nerfed all kinds of things they also made these primals more accessible I didnt say made it easier to clear because Im sure that it didnt.

But at this point when everything has been in your favor then why get upset when now the content is open for everyone, we both no its not gona change just because this thread is here. So why not just get over it , its two months, I will be fully aware that all new raids and primal in sb will be going right into rf.

Im ok with that I dont wana get rid of rf even tho I prefer duty finder, but I know it has its purpose so if people can be ok with knowing if they are slow to learn they will be excluded . Then why cant the opposition be ok with content thats already been out there now being more accessible to the masses?

The number of practice parties would be proportional to the number of people who haven't cleared. The contents we're talking about (creator savage, zurvan ex) are months old, they're somewhat past their "best before date" so it's not weird that there are more farm groups than practice, especially considering they're quite easier than previous savage/ex so many people who are interested in such contents have cleared them. If you're months late then tough luck, there are less people like you so it'll be harder to make a practice group. Is it unfair? Well life is unfair. It's not our fault that we were playing this game 5-ish months ago when creator savage was released. It's also not your fault that you didn't clear those contents soon after their release, but that's just how it works: more people cleared = more farm groups.

Zurvan (and sophia, a9s, a10s) were clearable after few hours of practice for most people, so it's not strange that you see later phase practice parties (or even clear/farm parties) on the day they're released. On the other hand, that doesn't mean there are no practice parties. I saw a lot of practice parties for zurvan/sophia weeks after they were released. Just because some people make farm/clear PF groups a few hours after release doesn't mean you can't make a practice PF group. They're faster than you, so what? Can't they be? They're not obliged to help others who are slower to get up to where they are. Another important thing is that there are many of those clear/farm parties few hours after patch because it's actually clearable quickly so there are enough people to fill those parties, otherwise people wouldn't bother. If someone made an aim to clear PF group for a12s 3 days after patch they're probably trolling or crazy.

Sorry friend but let's face it you can have a full group of people who "cleared" be 10x worse that that one guy desperate for a clear who probably would have been your top dps if they joined as such.
What I'm trying to say is that even with content in raid finder, there's no real chance of that group being legit even with a whole team of "farmers". it really makes no difference in the end to be honest. You either get a good group or a poo poo storm. Blocking people who haven't cleared with rf BARELY mitigates this.