Is DPS'ing as a Healer Vote Kickable?

I just re-subbed and this argument is still going on? Healers are damned if we do and damned if we don't. I see DPS standing around with a finger up their bum at least half the time or they go afk on bosses while auto attacking. How many times has a LAZY DPS been locked out and the healer is working as hard as they can DPSing to help that boss die quicker while 3 manning? Happens at least once every other day. I don't see many threads on this at all, but if a healer isn't playing so hard their thumbs are bleeding they are a "chronic underachiever" or "lazy" or people are mad they are dpsing when they see the tank get close to death.

Im so sick of this argument, really. I wish they would take away healers ability to DPS in dungeons and just add a class that debuffs and offheals. Make dungeons 6 man and raids 9 man and put in a true support dps class. PLEASE for the love of fk! Add a true support class!

Out of curiosity what's the off tanks role if no adds or tank swaps? I guess just sit down and wait for the main tank to die.

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Originally Posted by Masekase_Hurricane

Out of curiosity what's the off tanks role if no adds or tank swaps? I guess just sit down and wait for the main tank to die.

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They've obviously filled their part and if the content is cleared, they've played well enough! :P

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Originally Posted by Masekase_Hurricane

Out of curiosity what's the off tanks role if no adds or tank swaps? I guess just sit down and wait for the main tank to die.

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Man, if I'm OT in Ifrit HM I just go make a sandwich... XD (Kidding, of course.)

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Originally Posted by Taika

I've seen a SCH /follow tank and drink coffee.

http://i.imgur.com/t2h4Cav.png

But yeah I guess they were doing their part good enough, right...

The example of 90 mins was about if DDs and tanks would play at the same level than the SCH here in this example. But somehow only healers get defended when they decide to do something like this.

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The faerie can reliably solo heal every dungeon up to Haukke Manor. I know because when I leveled my scholar, that's what I did, never leaving Cleric Stance ever. You may not like it, but the healer is doing their job adequately. Doing one's job adequately is not about the effort it takes, but the end result. If DPS could auto attack for damage on par with using their abilities, they'd be just as entitled to auto attack their way through every dungeon, even if it takes no effort. They can't, and indeed on many encounters there are soft or hard damage checks that need to be overcome, which will not be overcome if they do not use abilities. In order to adequately perform their job, they therefore need to use abilities, even though it takes more effort than the autofollow scholar.

Again though, I generally don't concern myself with what other people are doing unless we start wiping. Failure to try to micromanage or boss other players around has not resulted in any problems thus far and it seems unlikely that it would in the future.

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Originally Posted by Nixxe

The faerie can reliably solo heal every dungeon up to Haukke Manor. I know because when I leveled my scholar, that's what I did, never leaving Cleric Stance ever. You may not like it, but the healer is doing their job adequately. Doing one's job adequately is not about the effort it takes, but the end result.

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Well, I think "doing one's job adequately" requires adequate participation, and claiming someone is adequately participating and / or doing their job in content while being afk and while all other members of their party are actually participating just doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

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Originally Posted by Nixxe

If DPS could auto attack for damage on par with using their abilities, they'd be just as entitled to auto attack their way through every dungeon, even if it takes no effort. They can't, and indeed on many encounters there are soft or hard damage checks that need to be overcome, which will not be overcome if they do not use abilities. In order to adequately perform their job, they therefore need to use abilities, even though it takes more effort than the autofollow scholar.

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But if there are no DPS checks, why should the DDs put in more effort than auto-attacking? Isn't it adequate by your argument, if they just clear the dungeon in 90 mins then?

And how about the DPS checks that require tank and healer DPS, such as the last boss of Antitower (where both DDs are turned into dolls and the group will wipe unless the tank and/or healer do DPS)?

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Originally Posted by Zojha

I'm merely pointing out the flaws in other people's criteria on what is acceptable behavior and what is not. And all I did to that end was to apply it to DPS as well. Nothing more, nothing less. And doing so leads to results I find undesirable.

Luckily, most people I meet in the game actually do not use that criterion but rather use the one I personally proposed, which is that you should always strive to do something productive and ideally efficient regardless of role. As such, my dungeons thankfully do not take anywhere near 90 minutes either. Naturally, I find that criterion vastly superior to the one of duty completion as a result. But for some reason, other people don't, which I find both surprising and disturbing.

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The flaw is in your overly literal approach to what should be an easily understood concept of dungeons are not hard and people don't need to min/max to complete them in a reasonable amount of time so long as they make some basic effort to contribute in a manner based on their assigned role.

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Originally Posted by Taika

Well, I think "doing one's job adequately" requires adequate participation, and claiming someone is adequately participating and / or doing their job in content while being afk and while all other members of their party are actually participating just doesn't make any sense whatsoever.


But if there are no DPS checks, why should the DDs put in more effort than auto-attacking? Isn't it adequate by your argument, if they just clear the dungeon in 90 mins then?

And how about the DPS checks that require tank and healer DPS, such as the last boss of Antitower (where both DDs are turned into dolls and the group will wipe unless the tank and/or healer do DPS)?

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I'm sufficiently confident that other players are enough like me to not want to make things take twenty times longer than they need to, especially content they've done many times before, that I'm not the least bit worried I'll ever encounter that situation. Even if I did, like I said, I'm really not interested in complaining at people unless they're hindering success to such a degree that it threatens completion.

If the encounter is designed to require healer DPS, then the healer should DPS. Again, this is all part of adequacy. However, most of the time the healer really doesn't need to DPS. It's just a convenience that speeds up the run a bit.

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Originally Posted by Kikoten

Yes, that has happened, more times than I'd like to count. If there were no Cleric Stance, and healing and damage were both based on Mind, it might be easier for me to quickly go back to healing when someone eats a big one.

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I am just curios about something (and, Kikoten, this has nothing to do with your post, so don't consider it a pro or con reply):

If the "community" expects healers to DPS, why should the healer be charged with doing maximum damage via Cleric Stance, rather than just some damage without it?

My reasoning behind Cleric Stance as a skill is that SE didn't want to penalize healers during the Main Story quests, so gave them a way to keep Mind as a primary stat while also being able to Kill Things in solo mode in a reasonable amount of time.

That reasoning doesn't apply to group content, where the DPS is expected to Kill Things in a reasonable amount of time.

So it is only healers that have to be active only 20% of the time. Everyone else must be active 70+%. Got it.

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Originally Posted by Nixxe

The faerie can reliably solo heal every dungeon up to Haukke Manor. I know because when I leveled my scholar, that's what I did

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Haukke Manor is a lv 28 dungeon... and you dont even get the Fairy until you get your scholor soul stone at level 30....

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Originally Posted by Cinno

Haukke Manor is a lv 28 dungeon... and you dont even get the Fairy until you get your scholor soul stone at level 30....

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I believe what was meant was doing levelling roulette as long as it was Haukke or lower, the fairy could solo heal.

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Originally Posted by Cinno

Haukke Manor is a lv 28 dungeon... and you dont even get the Fairy until you get your scholor soul stone at level 30....

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Scholar faeries and the summoner Garuda and Titan egis are job specific modifications of Summon I and Summon II. As such, while you can't get the job until 30, you retain the modification even if scaled beneath level 30, so long as you're high enough to have access to the relevant arcanist spell and are equipped with the relevant soulstone.

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Originally Posted by Cinno

Haukke Manor is a lv 28 dungeon... and you dont even get the Fairy until you get your scholor soul stone at level 30....

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But if you're a 30+ SCH running synced in Haukke, Eos is Summon I, which you have from leveling ACN. You can run Sastasha with a fairy...

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Originally Posted by Taika

It's not about people "not going above and beyond what their role is", it's about all party members making an equal effort towards the party's goal and setting the bar at same level for everyone.

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This appears to imply that it is the responsibility of DPS and Tank to heal themselves at times, and not blame the healer if they die from something they could have easily avoided.

It appears to imply that DPS should never take enmity from the Tank, and actually tone down their DPS if they are doing so.

It appears to imply that Tanks should be watching the Healer constantly and grabbing adds in a timely fashion, regardless of whether it's a DPS drop for them.

That about right?

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Originally Posted by Cinno

Haukke Manor is a lv 28 dungeon... and you dont even get the Fairy until you get your scholor soul stone at level 30....

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When you level sync in a duty as a scholar, you still keep the fairy regardless of level.

To the.. what.. six people that responded to that, I misread his post. He said thats what he did when he was leveling his scholor, so I thought he was trying to say he used it while running the dungeon as a means to level. Disregard :P

This is just my 2 cents (and I'm aware other people disagree, but I don't really care lol. I'm allowed to be as tolerate as I desire). If a healer doesn't want to DPS, it personally doesn't bother me much (and yes, I am allowed to have my own opinion on this tyvm). I mean, it kinda sucks to see them standing around while I'm working my butt off, but I'm a DPS, that's my job in the party, and as far as I'm concerned I just DPS harder (by psychically willing my cool downs to go faster if I have to LOL). But their heals better be on point. >.> I can't count the amount of times I had a "heals only" WHM that still let the tank die. DX I don't know how! Were they distracted by the shiny lights my DT/Ruin III was giving off???

I find I like AST more in the heals-only category, because usually they're playing with their cards and still supporting the party in DPS buffs even if they're not contributing directly, you know what I mean?

If a healer wants to DPS, fab, I applaud them, but if they DPS and forget heals 80% of the time? I kinda just want to poke my own eyes out instead of continuing the dungeon with them.

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Originally Posted by Cinno

To the.. what.. six people that responded to that, I misread his post. He said thats what he did when he was leveling his scholor, so I thought he was trying to say he used it while running the dungeon as a means to level. Disregard :P

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Just a lot of leveling roulette after I could queue as a healer. ;)

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

This appears to imply that it is the responsibility of DPS and Tank to heal themselves at times, and not blame the healer if they die from something they could have easily avoided.

It appears to imply that DPS should never take enmity from the Tank, and actually tone down their DPS if they are doing so.

It appears to imply that Tanks should be watching the Healer constantly and grabbing adds in a timely fashion, regardless of whether it's a DPS drop for them.

That about right?

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I honestly don't get where you're going with this. It doesn't imply that a person should never make a mistake (like DPS should never take enmity from tank - of course they should aim to avoid it but mistakes happen), but yes, it does imply that not only healers but also tanks and DDs should do their best to actively participate in the fights. If a DD takes damage and has a Second Wind available, of course they should use it, and of course tanks should be pulling adds when they appear. I really don't get what you're trying to imply here.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

It's a reiteration of your main theme: "it's about all party members making an equal effort towards the party's goal and setting the bar at same level for everyone". I agree with it. And agreeing with it has implications that many folks never consider.

Healers aren't the only team members. If the "community" requires them to have multiple responsibilities, they need to require the same from the other team members. Complaints I've seen appear to absolve DPS and Tank from any responsibility outside their given role.

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Ah I see now, thanks for explaining! Yes, of course I agree that all party members should use all their useful abilities to support the party. I just feel like this is most often taken for granted for DDs and tanks, but for healers some people are actually arguing that they shouldn't have to do anything but that one thing. I'd dislike a BRD who doesn't sing, a DD who refuses to use Second Wind or Quelling Strikes, or an off tank who does absolutely nothing while there aren't any adds up just as I dislike a healer who refuses to do anything but heal.

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Originally Posted by Taika

I really don't get what you're trying to imply here.

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It's a reiteration of your main theme: "it's about all party members making an equal effort towards the party's goal and setting the bar at same level for everyone". I agree with it. And agreeing with it has implications that many folks never consider.

Healers aren't the only team members. If the "community" requires them to have multiple responsibilities, they need to require the same from the other team members. Complaints I've seen appear to absolve DPS and Tank from any responsibility outside their given role.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

This appears to imply that it is the responsibility of DPS and Tank to heal themselves at times, and not blame the healer if they die from something they could have easily avoided.

It appears to imply that DPS should never take enmity from the Tank, and actually tone down their DPS if they are doing so.

It appears to imply that Tanks should be watching the Healer constantly and grabbing adds in a timely fashion, regardless of whether it's a DPS drop for them.

That about right?

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No, it implies DPS should be active as close to 100% of the time as possible.
No, it implies tanks should be active as close to 100% of the time as possible.
No, it implies that healers should be active as close to 100% of the time as possible.


If you needed to heal as close to 100% of the time as possible to complete a dungeon then this topic would be moot. You don't need to, *that* is why it is an assumption that healers will do *something* to take up the activity time that is not being used to heal. I really do not know how to make it any more plain than that.

edit: And to add, if there was a fight where there was nothing to tank or dps for a period of time but there was still damage somehow then yes, I would expect non-healers to pitch in as would be beneficial.

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Originally Posted by AutoWhit

Can't wait to see what all of you "you better be dpsing if there's nothing to heal" people have to say when the combat changes come in 4.0 and healers either can't dps at all, or their dps viability gets so nerffed it's not even worth it to switch stances.

Just guessing, of course, but I can see SE putting an end to this argument. I have a feeling there's gonna be a whole lot of dpsers out there that are gonna be upset at having to step up their game rather than blame healers for low party dps.

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If they actually forced healers to only heal without scaling the damage to properly accommodate such a change, you'll see the queues become near unbearable. Why bother queuing for dungeons when you'll spend 50-80% standing around spamming emotes? I can speak only for myself, but I scarcely bother with Expert Roulette nowadays already since capping tomes is easy. A change like this would mean I never even look at dungeons.

What I do expect to happen in Stormblood is Cleric Stance being removed and healer damage being calculated through Mind not unlike how they changed tank damage to scale through both VIT and STR.

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Originally Posted by Sylve

If a player chose to start as a (CNJ)WHM, that WHM needs to be capable of actually killing things in MSQ quests, Leves and side quests.
Could you imagine trying to get from 1 - 60 via questing as a (CNJ)WHM with your ONLY damage spell being Stone I?
SE clearly thought that'd suck, so they made sure to give the Job adequate damage dealing spells that were flavorful to the Job without being the focus of the Job.

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That explains the various Stone tiers, however if SE didn't anticipate healer damage. Why give them arguably the most potent aoes in the entire game? Holy and Gravity will generally out-DPS Dragoons and Ninjas-- two dedicated DPS jobs-- while Aero III (and its equivalents) only adds to the sheer immense potency a healer can deal. None of these abilities are even remotely required for any MSQ content.

Honestly, if you have the skills, yes.

Good tanks that I have seen will use Second Wind, Equilibrium and Clemency to allow their healers more time to get their DoTs out before they are required to come out of healing stance. DPS that take unnecessary damage and have Second Wind or Bloodbath should use their skills and help contribute to sustaining themselves. Even on room-wide damage, using such skills to contribute to healers having more DPS up-time and overall damage increase. Healers not switching off who DoTs, heals and DPSs at a time, also leading to less overall DPS increase.

DPS have skills like Quelling Strikes and Shadewalker should use them as most good openers are likely to pull if you start casting right when the tank pulls (which I've seen many people do, even if the tank starts the pull at 3 instead of 1). I've equally seen people start casting too early, like a bard in Midas, thinking Empyreal Arrow was a 3 second cast and pulled at 3. I've seen so many people vehemently argue against ever using Quelling Strikes, saying it lowers their DPS.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

It appears to imply that Tanks should be watching the Healer constantly and grabbing adds in a timely fashion, regardless of whether it's a DPS drop for them.

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Ah, that sentence. The tank's role is to tank, not the healer. I have seen all too many tanks, healers and DPS ignore their roles for the sake of "the parse." A mob needs to die ASAP; hold on, lemme DoT all the other mobs and return to that one that needs to die. Oh, lemme not get the last hit because overkill isn't counted on FFLogs and is cropped off and will lower my parse. Tanks not stance dancing and once enmity is established, goes into DPS stance and will tank everything in that stance, including losing out on valuable skills that would otherwise contribute to higher overall DPS increases.

However, "my parse!" is more important.

This does not make anyone a good player. The things I listed above. They make players greedy for- what? A sense of superiority? I honestly don't know. FFLogs was meant to be able to look at where teams had issues and what could be done to optimize runs and roles as a whole. A place where you could see people who did better than you and check out their particularities; like their opener, when they next used buffs, what other buffs were stacked, etc. A tool for self, and team, improvement. Not a leader-board for boasting or bragging.

A good tank will switch back into tank stance and mitigate, making it easier for the healer to heal (and also return to cleric stance sooner) and then stance dance back into their DPS stance. Things like warriors will actually pop Defiance, mitigate and use skills like Second Wind or Equilibrium, then swap back into Deliverance. Taking the tank buster in Deliverance and living doesn't make you good- it just means you were baby sat. Yes, I'm well aware a Warrior takes the same amount of damage in Defiance as they do in Deliverance; this isn't about that. It's about working as a team, and many players have a blatant disregard for it in a social and team-based game.

As for healers, I've also seen so many other healers, mostly scholars, that will only DPS and leave everything to the co-healer and the fairy. They don't bother to mitigate, even throw down so much as a Sacred Soil when large amounts of room-wide damage are going out. The exception being things like a primal using their limit break and then just applying adloquium and deployment tactics. That's cool and all and if the other healer notices, and more importantly, can handle it, then why not remove the co-healer and take an actual DPS? Again, just because you can do something doesn't make you a good player; it makes you a greedy player that is, often times, babysat.

However, I know a majority will disagree with this statement.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

~snip~

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You're assuming dungeons will be just as unfulfilling as they are now. I'm hoping the last fight with The Griffen in Baelsar's Wall is anything to go by, that we will see an increase in mobs doing enmity ignoring attacks on all party members with just enough going on that cleric stancing could spell death. I'd personally welcome such a change; I'd love dungeons that are "easy," but more action packed to the point that even if I'm "just healing," I have too much going on to afford me to DPS for any length of time.

Not required in MSQ at this point, no but there have been points in time where job quests did need it. We're also not taking into account open world, where a person would potentially be solo questing. You're only looking at instances and MSQ.

Well, I guess from now on I can kick any healer who heals but doesn't deal any dps, and everyone else if I don't like their gear or how they play, that's pretty nice. No need to feel bad anymore for kicking the DD's if I deal more dps than them as healer.

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Originally Posted by Leanna

Well, I guess from now on I can kick any healer who heals but doesn't deal any dps, and everyone else if I don't like their gear or how they play, that's pretty nice. No need to feel bad anymore for kicking the DD's if I deal more dps than them as healer.

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Effectively yes. You still must get a majority vote though so you alone aren't really the say all be all for kicking.

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Originally Posted by JunseiKei

You're assuming dungeons will be just as unfulfilling as they are now. I'm hoping the last fight with The Griffen in Baelsar's Wall is anything to go by, that we will see an increase in mobs doing enmity ignoring attacks on all party members with just enough going on that cleric stancing could spell death. I'd personally welcome such a change; I'd love dungeons that are "easy," but more action packed to the point that even if I'm "just healing," I have too much going on to afford me to DPS for any length of time.

Not required in MSQ at this point, no but there have been points in time where job quests did need it. We're also not taking into account open world, where a person would potentially be solo questing. You're only looking at instances and MSQ.

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Hence my mention of scaling. Although Baelsar's Wall does a better job than most HW dungeons, you still have significant downtime where the inability to DPS would mean healers have literally nothing to do. Honestly, higher level floors of PotD are a perfect template for dungeons. Tanks actually need to be mindful of pulls and cooldown usage and Healers equally have much shorter windows to DPS due to the damage. In that sense, I agree with you. I'd prefer more healer checks regardless of how they're designed since whenever I do play healer, I would rather heal (I main DPS jobs. I get enough of it :p ) Unfortunately, the current design of content just does not support that mindset.

No, there isn't. You will never need abilities as potent as Holy or Aero III in any solo-able content. The vast majority of quests pair you with NPCs who keep you nearly topped off should there be larger mob packs and open world mobs barely do anything unless you pull a bunch of them.

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Originally Posted by Greedalox

Effectively yes. You still must get a majority vote though so you alone aren't really the say all be all for kicking.

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Go in duo helps to kick anyone you want.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

No, there isn't. You will never need abilities as potent as Holy or Aero III in any solo-able content. The vast majority of quests pair you with NPCs who keep you nearly topped off should there be larger mob packs and open world mobs barely do anything unless you pull a bunch of them.

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No? Hmm, we must be remembering things differently. Things like fighting in the mock PvP MSQ where such AoE skills were quite nice to have at your disposal. Just one instance I can recall off the top of my head. Maybe not needed, but certainly more efficient. However, that had been my point. Open world where multiple monsters could jump on you if you aren't paying attention to your surroundings. You can run, yes, but if you need to kill them, having AoE skills at your disposal is better than none.

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Originally Posted by Parawill

If a healer decides to DPS in their downtime, while keeping the group alive, a legitimate reason to vote kick someone? Asking, since word on the streets says that we're allowed to vote kick people for differentiating playstyles.

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The answer is no but unfortunately, it's the total opposite: if you DON'T DPS during downtime that's a reason enough to be kicked. So you either learn to DPS between heals or don't pick the healing job (in every possible meaning).

I picked the third choice and went tank! Toodles!

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Originally Posted by Leanna

Go in duo helps to kick anyone you want.

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That's the spirit!

I see these types of healers all the time when tanking, I sometimes ask them if they can dps, if they don't i usually stand in more aoes and not use cooldowns to make them work a bit ;)

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Originally Posted by AutoWhit

Also, I still haven't gotten an answer as to why we queue as tank, or dps, or healer.

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Do you prefer to play a DPS with no positionals but a lower ceiling, a dps with positionals, spells or range, or a DPS that occasionally casts a spell on an ally? There's no cause to worry about your primary role if you can't hack it, you'll probably be paired with someone that actually knows.

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Originally Posted by Pomelo

Did anyone say anything otherwise? The pro-healer dps camp, really want healers to heal as well...we never said NEVER HEAL.

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I've seen many pro dps healers chastise a healer for stepping out of cs for 4-5 seconds to heal up after raid wide damage or toss out regens. I haven't seen anyone recommend keeping the party alive, even when the group's at a collective 5% HP.

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Originally Posted by Masekase_Hurricane

Out of curiosity what's the off tanks role if no adds or tank swaps? I guess just sit down and wait for the main tank to die.

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The offtanks role is to dps, because if they don't, the party will hit enrage and wipe. Unless the healers are dpsing, in which case the off tank is actually just a fifth red dps.

Not exactly, but whether or not they're able to DPS depends on how comfortable both the healer and tanks are with handling mobs in an instance and/or how well geared they are imo. At the beginning of Besaler's Wall, though, it may be a tad difficult for even skilled healers to DPS since some mobs ignore aggro, not just the one that tethers you.

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Originally Posted by JunseiKei

No? Hmm, we must be remembering things differently. Things like fighting in the mock PvP MSQ where such AoE skills were quite nice to have at your disposal. Just one instance I can recall off the top of my head. Maybe not needed, but certainly more efficient. However, that had been my point. Open world where multiple monsters could jump on you if you aren't paying attention to your surroundings. You can run, yes, but if you need to kill them, having AoE skills at your disposal is better than none.

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Yes, however their potency wouldn't need to be nearly as high in that scenario, which has been my point. It requires 6+ mobs before a Dragoon can deal more direct potency compared to a White Mage assuming the latter only spams Holy. If SE didn't intend for healers to DPS even just sparingly, then this is simply a design flaw. The current healer DPS meta exists because healers deal such significant damage and nothing hurts hard enough to warrant consistent healing. They had to know this would happen.

And open world mobs deal so little damage on average. Even if they did pile on you, Stone III would be more than adequate. Again, it isn't efficiency we're talking about but whether SE gave healers the abilities they have purely for solo-able content or to actually contribute damage whenever possible. In that specific MSQ event, I mostly did single target combos. It didn't take much longer nor would it had I been on White Mage spamming Stone III.

A simple solution would be actually make content hit hard enough or have healer checks that severely restricts how much downtime you have to DPS. Until they do, the meta will not change.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

They had to know this would happen.

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The hilarious thing is that they didn't. Look at dev comments or sometimes even patch notes. Round 1 holy nerfs? "Healers should not feel pressured to DPS". Hall of novice? "You MAY wish to DPS if you have time." Or other tidbits like "We know SOME groups' playstyle is to have healers DPS."

However, most people favor maximum contribution and so reach the logical conclusion: Healers are capable of significant DPS output and often have enough downtime to safely DPS. Thus, to maximize contribution, healers should DPS.

In the end it doesn't matter though. You can basically kick someone for a party for any reason except to grief them, so you can kick a healer that does/doesn't DPS.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

The hilarious thing is that they didn't.

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You know, I wrote that and immediately thought exactly this, xD. Granted, I wasn't around for the Holy nerfs and whatnot.

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Originally Posted by Taika

Expecting someone to go "above and beyond" in healer role would be to expect them to maximise their DPS while they optimise (= minimise) their healing. And absolutely no one in this thread is suggesting that should be the standard.

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Above and beyond their role is anything other than healing.

The role is healer, not healer/dps.

edit: I find it kind of funny, and sad really, that I'm being argued with for not calling healers out if they don't dps. People need to grow up and realize not everyone in this world is the same as them. Step up your own game and improve yourself, but do NOT assume someone else has the same ability as you to do so.

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Originally Posted by AutoWhit

but do NOT assume someone else has the same ability as you to do so.

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So we are bad because we assume everyone else has the ability to push buttons as frequently as other people? Why do you think so lowly of healers?

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Originally Posted by AutoWhit

Above and beyond their role is anything other than healing.

The role is healer, not healer/dps.

edit: I find it kind of funny, and sad really, that I'm being argued with for not calling healers out if they don't dps. People need to grow up and realize not everyone in this world is the same as them. Step up your own game and improve yourself, but do NOT assume someone else has the same ability as you to do so.

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Every role has to step out of their non existent box role that has never existed in this game. The Holy Trinity (+Support) simply does not apply to FF14. Tanks have to DPS, DPS have to support, Support barely support and DPS more than most DPS so where did you get the impression that "Healer is just Healer"?