Difficulty format for Normal and Savage will remain in 4.0

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Originally Posted by zosia

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Well SE did do that once. FCoB's raid gear is so over the top looking, but it is clearly raid looking gear.

I would argue that SE is still trying to make unique looking raid gear, but its just not producing the same results. Another factor is they put a lot of time and detail into non-raiding gear also which makes it blend with other gear sets. We could be proven wrong this tier if the final Alex gear looks over the top and unique.

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Originally Posted by zosia

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I wish I could just take all of your posts, translate them into japanese, and mail them right to Yoshi P. You are so on the money.

One thing I would add though is that there is somehow more incentive to normal mode than savage, even without the far higher accessibility. NM should not have gear progression that is required by raiders, and instead offer something along the lines of rare glamour and minion drops, independent of savage, or even tie it into the relic from the get go. I feel like another aspect of the NM/savage debate is that raiders are burnt out with the aesthetic and bosses of alexander before they even step foot into savage, which doesnt help the lack of rewards or fight difficulty when it comes to participation and enjoyment.

It will be funny to see players who don't pull their weight trying Palace of the Dead 101-200 and whine for nerf :)
But no way, there is no excuses of gear or static (and no story). Here just skills prevail.
I hope it will train people to be better.
I have the feeling it will be our horizontal progression content if the rewards can follow.
To be honest, I have more faith in these last floors to be the most hardest content in this game, more than the last tier of Alexander savage ^^

After reading some of these replies going back and forth, I must ask a question of; why are people trying to proof each others wrong? Also, what's with the, if I can get my voice the loudest and the last, I'm right attitude? Both side have a suggestions and it's equally right for both side to make a suggest without someone coming in and saying "You're wrong." Please keep an open mind and STOP shunning others suggestion.

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Originally Posted by B0YRaNmA

After reading some of these replies going back and forth, I must ask a question of; why are people trying to proof each others wrong? Also, what's with the, if I can get my voice the loudest and the last, I'm right attitude? Both side have a suggestions and it's equally right for both side to make a suggest without someone coming in and saying "You're wrong." Please keep an open mind and STOP shunning others suggestion.

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Thank you, I have no idea why this keeps happening either. Like the two sides can't mutually co-exist for some reason. One side feels trampled on if the other gets the slightest boost in some form.

I also have never wished more for a Dislike button for Yoshi's decisions. While we have no idea of the difficulty levels, Savage (not normal) has proven a colossal failure in EVERY POSSIBLE WAY. There is not one business I can think of that would keep a system around that has so much negative energy from nearly everyone, including the industry, thrown at it.

Are mmo's at a tipping point? I feel that we are eventually going to see a split, and more niche mmo end-game oriented may eventually again see the light of day. Will this game fail any time soon? No. Will it be anything more than a glorified fashion show? At this rate, probably not.

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Originally Posted by B0YRaNmA

Both side have a suggestions and it's equally right for both side to make a suggest without someone coming in and saying "You're wrong." Please keep an open mind and STOP shunning others suggestion.

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It's reasonable for someone to voice objections to a suggestion that would significantly alter some part of the game that they enjoy in its current form.

Obviously there's a respectful (or at least cordial) way to do so, but if I said (for pure point of example, I don't believe for a moment that it's the case) that either normal or savage mode is the clear and obvious problem with end game and it must be removed, I don't think it would be reasonable to expect someone who is glad that the applicable mode exists to just "keep an open mind" about that.

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Originally Posted by Ibi

It's reasonable for someone to voice objections to a suggestion that would significantly alter some part of the game that they enjoy in its current form.

Obviously there's a respectful (or at least cordial) way to do so, but if I said (for pure point of example, I don't believe for a moment that it's the case) that either normal or savage mode is the clear and obvious problem with end game and it must be removed, I don't think it would be reasonable to expect someone who is glad that the applicable mode exists to just "keep an open mind" about that.

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Reasonable voice of objections is fine, but there's gotta be a line. What I'm seeing is, who's getting the last saying and that person will win the argument. So, you'll just end up constantly at each others throat to no end of 10+ page that is completely not related to the OP.

P.S.
When a suggestion is made, one agrees or disagree.
You agree, you press like and if you have something to add on, add on.
You disagree, you don't do anything and reply to the thread with what you believe should be the opposite.
If there's a specific counter that you want to do, quote that specific area and follow up with maybe two or three more counter arguments (have pity on those that truly wants to follows the thread for possibly and pure innovative ideas).

At the end of the day they are going to do what they feel is best for the entire Playerbase. I do believe the best rewards should be behind raiding. But I also believe that the story shouldn't be gated behind it either.

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Originally Posted by DGladius

Yeah you should just be able to put a half-assed effort in fighting the toughest bosses who want to destroy the world and defeat them easily to see the story unveil.

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See: Main Story Quest

As for my thoughts on the topic. I don't raid (don't have time to/no interest). But even if I did I wouldn't agree with locking story behind raiding. Plus, as people have mentioned, you could just watch a video of the entire story if you really didn't want to bother with the content so how is that even really a "reward"? What they need to do is give proper incentive for Savage, plain and simple, but if they plan to do so it won't be before 4.0.

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Originally Posted by Evumeimei

See: Main Story Quest

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*looks at everyone who still botches Nidhogg normal*

Uh huh...

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Originally Posted by Nalien

Part of the problem there is item level inflation... I mean, Lv60 starts out at i150, then before 3.1 even came around, we had i210... We could actually have a much tighter progression up the item levels if SE wasn't so set on making everyone the same every other patch... If you don't hand casuals raider tier progression, then you don't have a situation where Scriptures are going to outclass everything we currently have... You don't rise through the item levels at a fairly alarming level, and content maintains its difficulty for slightly longer... Heck, they don't even have to make these jumps 10 point differences... We had i220 > i230 > i240, for example, but i220 > i225 > i230 is just as viable...

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The new prototype/crafted gear doesn't even need to be higher ilvl, it could be 240 but pentamelded would still be better. The tome upgraded stuff could have been like 235 or something to compensate for prototype ilvl. That way raiders still have good gear to start the next tier with even if they don't want to start out crazy with the crafted stuff.

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

*looks at everyone who still botches Nidhogg normal*

Uh huh...

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Well, I mean, people still mess up a lot of content. It happens. But if you say it like that then there's even less reason to remove normal mode raids, lol.

Besides, Nidhogg was a good amount of difficult.

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Originally Posted by B0YRaNmA

You disagree, you don't do anything and reply to the thread with what you believe should be the opposite.
If there's a specific counter that you want to do, quote that specific area and follow up with maybe two or three more counter arguments (have pity on those that truly wants to follows the thread for possibly and pure innovative ideas).

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That's how most, if not all, of these arguments and back-and-forth started at one point though. Usually several threads ago.

I know a lot of the people in this thread (and some other regulars who haven't shown up in here yet) have gone back and forth on some of this stuff in a least a half dozen threads before because:

1. We have different (sometimes wildly so) opinions on both what motivates people at end game and on what a good end game structure would involve.
2. We're all pretty stubborn and convinced that our answer is at least mostly correct and the other person must just be missing some key point of our argument, and if we can just find the right way to phrase it, obviously they'll come around to our point of view.

So what may have started out as a reasonable conversation has just escalated over time.

I rest my case...

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Originally Posted by Velhart

You pay 12.99 to access the world, not to have everything handed to you on a silver platter. That is what veteran rewards are for. That privilege you speak so lightly of is from people who put in the hard work to have it. Work that most are not willing to do but for some reason feel just as entitled to it.

If you cannot put in that kind of effort, then you need to acknowledge where you are in the progression chain, which is not at the end. When I played WoW before raiding, I always saw characters who had this really top notch Heroic gear and sometimes Legendary weapon that really showed off who was the best of the best. I in no way felt entitled to that gear at all, I know that person sweat blood and tears to get to where he was at.

If I am going to stress myself out doing these really hard dance routine raids that a lot of times tests my patience, then yes I do deserve that privilege that casual players shouldn't have.

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I'm not sure if you didn't read my whole post or if you're just ignoring it.I personally don't feel entitled to get the gear without doing anything for it, and if you get a super awesome "legendary" weapon or a certain item because you beat something super hard,I don't feel entitled to get it and I don't feel bad at all for not having it, but savage gives a WHOLE set of items that are unavailable to 90% of the players, it's not a single special item, it's a whole set and it gets farmed till everybody has theirs on each and every alt, so yea I don't think it should be anything else but a recolor with higher itemlevel, I do however think that there should be something else there as a reward at the end of savage aside from just a simple achievement.

Maybe it's because there generally is such a lack of choices when it comes to gear... There is always only ONE set of gear with a certain iLvl when a new patch comes out.
For me it makes sense there is a gap in iLvl between endgame and casual, but if you don't want a sour feeling over your effort not being meaningful, a casual or midcore player doesn't want to have that sour feeling either, and trust me, we have it too.
Grinding tomes is not rewarding, the gear that drops in the new dungeons is meaningless unless you have an army of alts to equip. By the time the weapon upgrade to i230 (7 weeks) is possible, we don't even "need" it to clear the content, since the iLvl is already high enough to faceroll through everything anyhow, the i240 upgrade now even more useless... we actually have even less to do than you.

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Originally Posted by zosia

Well, to answer you question, for me at least, exclusive rewards. I want to FEEL justly rewarded for millions of gil spent, countless hours of frustrating progression, and keeping my raid roster filled out. If raid gear cannot be the best gear in the game, then raid gear needs to really have a standout appearence.

Look at guildwars 2, a strictly horizontal progression MMO. The skins coming from end game content are amazing! The detail, effects, and models are unlike most of the other gear in the game. Right now, the normal mode gear set spoils any chance of Midas gear having a stand out appearance.

Savage should have either superior Ilvl or amazing vanity gear that stands out over anything else offered in the game. I would be happy with ONE of those. At least with FCoB, we had some of the most unique looking gear in the game that was only obtainable through raiding. We had an amazing raid story that was only obtainable from raiding. It FELT rewarding.

To be as concise as possible, I feel raids need either the best ilvl or the best glamours. Right now we have neither. If I had a preference between the two, I would take the ilvl over locking great glamours behind savage.

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Ok wait, but isn't the gear from alex savage higher iLvl? I mean you got your i240 a while ago, no? And the weapon is i245, the highest in the game? Correct me if I'm wrong.
I guess they would do better if the iLvl doesn't jump so much with each patch, have alex normal be i220 then tomegear be i230, savage i240 with i245 weapon, then after some month the general public gets to upgrade their stuff to i235 and weapon to i240 for example, then raidgear would actually ALWAYS be better... and it wouldn't actually matter for the general playerbase at all... because all the other content is easily beatable with i220 or less anyhow...

I'll be honest, if raiders would actually get REALLY awesome completely newly designed gear SETS I'd be upset (simply because of all the recycling that happens with gear in general), but higher iLVL plus maybe a super shiny i245 weapon or something I'd find totally acceptable.

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Originally Posted by yexie

Ok wait, but isn't the gear from alex savage higher iLvl? I mean you got your i240 a while ago, no? And the weapon is i245, the highest in the game? Correct me if I'm wrong.
I guess they would do better if the iLvl doesn't jump so much with each patch, have alex normal be i220 then tomegear be i230, savage i240 with i245 weapon, then after some month the general public gets to upgrade their stuff to i235 and weapon to i240 for example, then raidgear would actually ALWAYS be better... and it wouldn't actually matter for the general playerbase at all... because all the other content is easily beatable with i220 or less anyhow...

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My main gripe with odd number patches (3.1, 3.3, 3.5 someday) is that there is no new raid gear, so standardizing the item level is not needed. "Catch up" gear is not needed while the current tier is still relevant. I would have even been fine with augmented upgrade items coming from niddhog EX. But standardizing everyone's gear when the next alex raid has not even come out is asinine.

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Originally Posted by yexie

I'll be honest, if raiders would actually get REALLY awesome completely newly designed gear SETS I'd be upset (simply because of all the recycling that happens with gear in general), but higher iLVL plus maybe a super shiny i245 weapon or something I'd find totally acceptable.

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Well, I would prepare yourself to get upset. Lets do a quick thought experiment shall we...

The dev team knows the rewards for savage are poor. The dev team also wants to avoid any performance gaps between raiders and non-raiders. If I am lead producer that does not want to create ilvl disparities but I know I need to increase raid rewards, I would, of course, choose to double down on cosmetic rewards.

I would put into this game some of the best looking raid sets that the player base has ever seen and I would gate them behind savage. That's how games like GW2 operate. Since gear is virtually meaningless, the best cosmetic rewards come from challenging end game content. I would bet 10 million gil on the notion that this is the kind of conversation Yoshida is having with his team about 4.0 as we speak.

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Originally Posted by yexie

I'm not sure if you didn't read my whole post or if you're just ignoring it.I personally don't feel entitled to get the gear without doing anything for it, and if you get a super awesome "legendary" weapon or a certain item because you beat something super hard,I don't feel entitled to get it and I don't feel bad at all for not having it, but savage gives a WHOLE set of items that are unavailable to 90% of the players, it's not a single special item, it's a whole set and it gets farmed till everybody has theirs on each and every alt, so yea I don't think it should be anything else but a recolor with higher itemlevel, I do however think that there should be something else there as a reward at the end of savage aside from just a simple achievement.

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I think most of us would just settle for an Ilvl bump and savage and normal being complete disassociated for eachother, meaning raiders don't have to run normal for prog and Normal will have no impact on Savage. Just let them exists as two separate stand alone entities.

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Originally Posted by yexie

Maybe it's because there generally is such a lack of choices when it comes to gear... There is always only ONE set of gear with a certain iLvl when a new patch comes out.
For me it makes sense there is a gap in iLvl between endgame and casual, but if you don't want a sour feeling over your effort not being meaningful, a casual or midcore player doesn't want to have that sour feeling either, and trust me, we have it too.
Grinding tomes is not rewarding, the gear that drops in the new dungeons is meaningless unless you have an army of alts to equip. By the time the weapon upgrade to i230 (7 weeks) is possible, we don't even "need" it to clear the content, since the iLvl is already high enough to faceroll through everything anyhow, the i240 upgrade now even more useless... we actually have even less to do than you.

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This is what all the white knight-ing back in ARR afforded us. People wanted a game that they could play for 20 mins a night. do one 24 man a week, and stay current with the end game. When you have a player base that WANTS that kind of meta, you end up with dungeons that have no teeth, content that is boring after two weeks, and an endgame that lacks any substance what so ever.

This is what a casual 20 min a day MMO looks like. This is what the casual players wanted. Content that could be completed in a casual time frame on the casual player's terms. /shrug

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Originally Posted by Ibi

We do actually already have a loose precedent for this in the rewards from The Feast's ranked mode.

Admittedly it's hard to say that's hard evidence that they'd move in that direction, because PvP's rewards in general are even less impactful than Savage's due to the item level caps, but it does show that they're willing to institute glamour sets as the ultimate reward for a particular type of content.

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I often think of this, thanks for pointing it out. SE should extend the feast ranking system to raid rewards. I am not a game dev, so I can't say for sure how such a system should translate to PvE. I think we see mechanisms in wow like this where vanity mounts from HC/Mythic are guaranteed to drop while the content is relevant but are reduced to 1% drops once the next expansion comes out.

Maybe the gobwalker and fauslet should not have a 100% drop rate come the expansion. But honestly, that's small potatoes for me. I don't care who goes back to alex in 4.0 to farm vanity items.

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Originally Posted by zosia

If I am lead producer that does not want to create ilvl disparities but I know I need to increase raid rewards, I would, of course, choose to double down on cosmetic rewards.

I would put into this game some of the best looking raid sets that the player base has ever seen and I would gate them behind savage. That's how games like GW2 operate. Since gear is virtually meaningless, the best cosmetic rewards come from challenging end game content. I would bet 10 million gil on the notion that this is the kind of conversation Yoshida is having with his team about 4.0 as we speak.

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We do actually already have a loose precedent for this in the rewards from The Feast's ranked mode.

Admittedly it's hard to say that's hard evidence that they'd move in that direction, because PvP's rewards in general are even less impactful than Savage's due to the item level caps, but it does show that they're willing to institute glamour sets as the ultimate reward for a particular type of content.

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Originally Posted by yexie

I'll be honest, if raiders would actually get REALLY awesome completely newly designed gear SETS I'd be upset (simply because of all the recycling that happens with gear in general), but higher iLVL plus maybe a super shiny i245 weapon or something I'd find totally acceptable.

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This is actually part of the old school MMORPG tradition. It's honestly what got a lot of us to do the difficult raids and spend more time setting them up than actually doing them lol... a lot more time. I personally don't see it as a bad thing, since effort should be rewarded accordingly. Given that ilvl currently has next to no real value to have the best of, it's not exactly testament of the difficulties endured. As you might think I'm implying, I am indeed saying that prestige, bragging rights, and flaunting hard to get things is part of nearly all real hardcore raiders agenda. While there are always a few exceptions, the rest of the bunch absolutely love flaunting their achievements as time goes on or showing off new gear.

But hey, that's exactly how most casual players are too. They love being noticed for their vanity choices or achievements, it's not much different. Hence, why it'd actually upset you to know someone else has access to something you don't, even though you technically do have access (you're not literally barred from getting it).

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Originally Posted by yexie

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My apologies. I was more going off on a rant not towards you after the first sentence. Should of clarified that.

For gear, if story mode and Savage continue being a thing, then perhaps they shouldn't drop gear in there but other items. Like just keep the key item you have to collect seven times and add a decent amount of tomestones. Because the only reason people go back in for story mode is gear and the key item to buy a weapon. Story mode is already borderline dead content after the first week so you have to be careful with it's rewards.

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Originally Posted by Ibi

We do actually already have a loose precedent for this in the rewards from The Feast's ranked mode.

Admittedly it's hard to say that's hard evidence that they'd move in that direction, because PvP's rewards in general are even less impactful than Savage's due to the item level caps, but it does show that they're willing to institute glamour sets as the ultimate reward for a particular type of content.

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I actually wonder if they might do something like this for Palace of the Dead... They mentioned a Leaderboard for Floor 101-200 I think... Create an automated reward system (because Feast didn't have one, we had to wait for a GM to send out our rewards...), have some metric to measure success in the Palace, then rank players up based on that on a weekly/monthly basis... Send out some tokens for us to farm or something... Could be interesting...

Probably just going to get "Grind Aetherpool to +99 to exchange for an i255 weapon" or something instead though... However a Leaderboard alone could peak my interest... Depends how the community as a whole embraces that though, it'll probably end up the same as the Lodestone Grand Company leaderboards, as in I've just reminded a bunch of people those even exist... Would be quite nice to aim for #1 at Palace of the Dead, then defend that position... More likely to get me interested in the content than some sh*tty item level I don't need...

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Originally Posted by Nalien

Probably just going to get "Grind Aetherpool to +99 to exchange for an i255 weapon" or something instead though...

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That'll be from 51-100.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

I actually wonder if they might do something like this for Palace of the Dead... They mentioned a Leaderboard for Floor 101-200 I think... Create an automated reward system (because Feast didn't have one, we had to wait for a GM to send out our rewards...), have some metric to measure success in the Palace, then rank players up based on that on a weekly/monthly basis... Send out some tokens for us to farm or something... Could be interesting...

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There's some people that the leaderboard thing will appeal to, but it's probably going to be its own niche group (like a lot of the game's content) and most people won't pay it much attention, especially if there's nothing else tied to it.

In addition to the gear sets that you got for beating a certain threshold, I think WoW's Challenge Mode dungeons each had a unique title associated with them that the group currently holding the record (per server, maybe?) could use, and lost once someone beat their time, which was a fun perk.

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Originally Posted by Welsper59

This is actually part of the old school MMORPG tradition. It's honestly what got a lot of us to do the difficult raids and spend more time setting them up than actually doing them lol... a lot more time. I personally don't see it as a bad thing, since effort should be rewarded accordingly. Given that ilvl currently has next to no real value to have the best of, it's not exactly testament of the difficulties endured. As you might think I'm implying, I am indeed saying that prestige, bragging rights, and flaunting hard to get things is part of nearly all real hardcore raiders agenda. While there are always a few exceptions, the rest of the bunch absolutely love flaunting their achievements as time goes on or showing off new gear.

But hey, that's exactly how most casual players are too. They love being noticed for their vanity choices or achievements, it's not much different. Hence, why it'd actually upset you to know someone else has access to something you don't, even though you technically do have access (you're not literally barred from getting it).

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Yea I get you, and I'm generally not even against that, it's actually just something that particulary doesn't seem to fit with me in this game, which has to do with how gear progression in this game works. I also don't mind if it's single items that are totally OP and only a few hardcore people can get it. but here we simply don't have enough choices to alternate our gear. In the previous game I played I had different sets for different playstyles/dungeons, you'd hit max level and just have a bunch of choices, whereas here we just have whatever is the highest iLvl, with a little bit of freedom to go for a little more of this or that, always having to trade in iLvl for these choices.
If everybody generally has 10 different choices I really don't mind if there are a few people with 11 choices, but if there is basically only one choice it kind of becomes a big deal if there is a small elite group of people that has 2 choices.

Blah, this whole talk about the gear progression in this game left me pretty frustrated actually, because I totally get where raiders are coming from as well.

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Originally Posted by yexie

I'll be honest, if raiders would actually get REALLY awesome completely newly designed gear SETS I'd be upset (simply because of all the recycling that happens with gear in general), but higher iLVL plus maybe a super shiny i245 weapon or something I'd find totally acceptable.

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The glamor debacle could easily be solved by SE if they consolidated it entirely and made it so you could glamor any armor piece in the game without actually having it. Heaven forbid they streamline this system that is getting wildly out of hand, AND give EVERYONE access to anything they wanted (glamor wise). Problem solved in terms of unique looks.

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Originally Posted by zosia

Well, to answer you question, for me at least, exclusive rewards.

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This puts the lie to all the statements I keep seeing about raiding for the challenge and not rewards.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

Then why have normal mode if you can just "Watch the cutscenes" the "Story is the Reward" is why all the people unable to even play the original coil are grasping so desperately to the story they get.

It feels cheap to watch the cutscenes on youtube because you didn't earn them.

Coil felt accessible to anyone willing to try and earn the story, Savage Alex is a different beast from standard coil at least in my experience.

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Just to comment on this, albeit a bit late. That feeling only stretches so far. The average gamer typically will either lose interest entirely or go to Youtube if frustrated to the point where it's no longer fun. For most people, Savage isn't fun, but an enormous source of frustration. Gating the story behind it won't motivate more people to do it. You'll just risk those players unsubbing instead of raiders. To use a friend of mine as an example. There is no incentive I could offer her to play Bloodborne. She would despise it because, for her, that level of difficulty simply isn't fun. She'll watch, but she won't touch it herself.

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Originally Posted by Sparktacus

The glamor debacle could easily be solved by SE if they consolidated it entirely and made it so you could glamor any armor piece in the game without actually having it. Heaven forbid they streamline this system that is getting wildly out of hand, AND give EVERYONE access to anything they wanted (glamor wise). Problem solved in terms of unique looks.

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So you would kill one of the game's most powerful motivation tools to do content? Okay

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Just to comment on this, albeit a bit late. That feeling only stretches so far. The average gamer typically will either lose interest entirely or go to Youtube if frustrated to the point where it's no longer fun. For most people, Savage isn't fun, but an enormous source of frustration. Gating the story behind it won't motivate more people to do it. You'll just risk those players unsubbing instead of raiders. To use a friend of mine as an example. There is no incentive I could offer her to play Bloodborne. She would despise it because, for her, that level of difficulty simply isn't fun. She'll watch, but she won't touch it herself.

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And where is this idea coming from that raiding is the only content in the game? 95% of this game is catered to the casual market. If raiding is the one thing that they feel they could not do, then besides that and Primal EX, every piece of content is catered towards casual for them to play. I have a hard time believing they would leave over it. It certainly wasn't an epidemic in 2.0. Raiders on the other hand will easily leave over poor raid structure like we have currently and they have. Midcore scene is in really bad shape and some notable world/server first groups have disbanded.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

So you would kill one of the game's most powerful motivation tools to do content? Okay

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There are so many ways that this system could be implemented without being a detriment, since you could not think of one let me share one with you. Here is an idea for you, tokens available from only doing certain content. And you know how SE loves their tokens. This is a simple example but you can let your imagination run wild, go ahead try it, its fun.

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Originally Posted by Sparktacus

There are so many ways that this system could be implemented without being a detriment, since you could not think of one let me share one with you. Here is an idea for you, tokens available from only doing certain content. And you know how SE loves their tokens. This is a simple example but you can let your imagination run wild, go ahead try it, its fun.

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People find the easiest content that drops the most tokens. Buy item. Done. All other content disregarded for this.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

People find the easiest content that drops the most tokens. Buy item. Done. All other content disregarded for this.

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okay, because you don't like the example given doesn't mean another can't take its place or it can't be refined further to fit whatever you are personally looking for. Also there is a fine line, and the glamor game will eventually in itself not be enough motivation for many. If you think it can last forever I will disagree here. It simply is not enough to sustain and engage the masses permanently.

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Originally Posted by Sparktacus

okay, because you don't like the example given doesn't mean another can't take its place or it can't be refined further to fit whatever you are personally looking for. Also there is a fine line, and the glamor game will eventually in itself not be enough motivation for many. If you think it can last forever I will disagree here. It simply is not enough to sustain and engage the masses permanently.

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It isn't, that is why the game has multiple forms of motivation and one of them is going to keep the interest of the end game player. It isn't just glamour that keeps people.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

It isn't, that is why the game has multiple forms of motivation and one of them is going to keep the interest of the end game player. It isn't just glamour that keeps people.

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What? Are we going in circles now because this whole discussion is based on how there is not enough motivation especially in endgame.

Let me add, that I was merely suggesting a means to a middle ground. There are people in here saying they don't as much care about the ilvl difference as much as the glamor and I was simply putting ideas out there to get in the right direction if that is truly the case.

After re-reading the translation, about the only different is boss visual between Normal and Savage. I have to agree that we will eventually run out of designs of gear for glamours, w/ the amount they're pushing out if they continue with the ilvl path they're taking. I also dread when the stats gets bloated.

I'm also liking the idea of making Savage hard...like...super hard or (some might not like the idea, but it's a start) time consuming so that their gears are earn, at which points then they can have their gears like 2 tiers to 3 tiers up for the effort they put in. Why make savage gear that much different? So that it is not a requirement that everyone running Ex Roulette needs to have it (I'm looking at you BiS).

What's the purpose of the gear at that ilvl? I think the idea of getting an equally high ilvl weapons from Savage EX primal sounds pretty good, just be sure to make EX Savage super hard too.

What do you do when you have both? You can help others or (I'm sure like many will do) take it and leave.

Is it fair for others that wants to try savage raiding? Sure is, those that finished had started at exactly where the next person to try will start. Which at that point is up to the high ilvl if they wants to give them a hand or not(being humanitarian), but since Savage are super hard, it'll be slightly easier so that it's not just giving high ilvls away.

Normal for story and equally casual ilvl gear.
Savage has super tier gears + story if people wants to just dive into it through savage, but no complaining that it's hard, and you couldn't get the story done, cause you could of done it in normal mode.

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Originally Posted by Cakekizyy

This puts the lie to all the statements I keep seeing about raiding for the challenge and not rewards.

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Show me where I said that raiding was all about the challenge? Let me save you the search, I never have.... soooo alll you are really doing is taking my PERSONAL INDIVIDUAL statements and using that as some silly trump card against raiders in general. /golfclap

https://cmoe.com/wp-content/images/H...f-Water-Ph.jpg

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Originally Posted by zosia

Yoshida has already spelled out that we are going back to FCoB difficulty for raids

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Not generally. Only for the last tier of alexander, as they are not able to change the roatations before 4.0.

As I don't remenber which thread exactly was discussing around steps of faith, but I dont see an issue with making story content more challanging at the start. They just could solve the discussions about difficulty by making it easier later and tell the player from the beginning when this will happen. This could for example within a black text box at the moment of unlocking the content:

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The following content is currently more challanging. If you have trouble please be patient. We will make audjustments at <enter date here> to ensure everybody will be able to finish the story.

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Originally Posted by zosia

Show me where I said that raiding was all about the challenge? Let me save you the search, I never have.... soooo alll you are really doing is taking my PERSONAL INDIVIDUAL statements and using that as some silly trump card against raiders in general. /golfclap

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To be fair, it IS an argument that is frequently bandied about whenever non-raiders accuse raiders of wanting things made more difficult or outright inaccessible to other players simply to feel superior: "I don't NEED that; I raid for the challenge, and to have fun with my friends". Well, that might be true, but I do think that a lot of it is that feeling of superiority and exclusivity, as well. I don't think there's anything to be ashamed about by admitting that, though. Even if it's "just a video game", a Savage-clearing raider was able to do something that 90% of this game's population cannot (or will not) do - I don't think it's wrong that they want something that distinguishes them, something that identifies them as a skilled player in this game where pushing random buttons in an inconsequential order will still likely get you through almost all of this game's content.

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Originally Posted by KarstenS

Not generally. Only for the last tier of alexander, as they are not able to change the roatations before 4.0.

As I don't remenber which thread exactly was discussing around steps of faith, but I dont see an issue with making story content more challanging at the start. They just could solve the discussions about difficulty by making it easier later and tell the player from the beginning when this will happen. This could for example within a black text box at the moment of unlocking the content:

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Why would they do that? It would just encourage people to just unsub until the next patch, which most people do now anyway for different reasons. You want people to stay in the game playing, not tell them to come back later if they can't clear something. Having in game text basically telling people "We know you will probably never be good enough, so go do something else until we enable easy mode" isn't going to win favors with anyone.

One of the main issues with savage in my opinion is that the content is both hard and basically static locked. Meaning that the progression is close to impossible outside of the static groups, and I am talking about loot restrictions not knowledge of fights, which is one of the main reasons behind the low percentage of players even trying it.

What would you think about this:

1. The savage being free of all the weekly loot restrictions.

2. The savage floors being added to the game gradually instead of at once.

Basically something like this: 3.4 A9S and A10S added, 3.45 A11S added, and lastly 3.5 A12S added to the game.

It would be still time-gated but in more accessible way while allowing easier movement of people between the groups.

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Originally Posted by Archaell

One of the main issues with savage in my opinion is that the content is both hard and basically static locked. Meaning that the progression is close to impossible outside of the static groups, and I am talking about loot restrictions not knowledge of fights, which is one of the main reasons behind the low percentage of players even trying it.

What would you think about this:

1. The savage being free of all the weekly loot restrictions.

2. The savage floors being added to the game gradually instead of at once.

Basically something like this: 3.4 A9S and A10S added, 3.45 A11S added, and lastly 3.5 A12S added to the game.

It would be still time-gated but in more accessible way while allowing easier movement of people between the groups.

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This is true...

1. Though they will need to remove all weekly loot restrictions for other dungeons also, since their loot systems is one of the core problems. Which they should, then make dungeon content lock behind puzzle difficulties and sufficient mob threats, so that dungeon doesn't get steam rolled. All they're doing to prevent steam rollers is putting up gate to slow it down, which people will just gate rush.

2. Don't think you'll need this if contents is challenging and difficult enough, with boss guarded.

I don't think Devs have a lot of room to make things challenging when all people wants to do is fight the boss, with the exception of primal.

Gonna go off the rail little and say that I understand casual have little time to play, but at current it is promoting cruise control...

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Originally Posted by Archaell

One of the main issues with savage in my opinion is that the content is both hard and basically static locked. Meaning that the progression is close to impossible outside of the static groups, and I am talking about loot restrictions not knowledge of fights, which is one of the main reasons behind the low percentage of players even trying it.

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But i always tought raiding was teamwork content you do with friends or atleast it used to be, i mean wheres the fun doing that stuff with peoples you dont know at all?