Why Speed Pulls?

SLOW AND STEADY WINS THE RACE!

http://img2.finalfantasyxiv.com/acci...6851f253f8.jpg

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Originally Posted by Sousoulsu

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Again I point out if you're relying on MY AoEs then you were screwed before you got there, This is not a matter of numbers it's a matter of practicality, I can use HT+RoT combo and Consistently hit more targets with more damage than DS. And something you are forgetting, prior to 2.4 DS was weaker than a Non-Comboed RoT which is why it fell out of rotation. And it still messes up my rotations as, even though it's not required for the combo, my chaos thrust combo still does extra damage from the rear.

If there are more than 4-5 mobs I don't trust Doom Spike to hit them all. Mobs don't just stand there, they move too. Now after the horde as been thinned and now that DS has been buffed it is now worth the 160 TP hit the last few mobs into the ground with now that they're heavily wounded.

I still don't think any of you "Number Worshipers" have actually put the time into understanding the job as I have as not only a dedicated Melee DPS but a Carrier Dragoon on top of it. There are some things you just can't learn by copying a rotation pattern. If it was all patterns and rotations then why would we even need parties to run dungeons at all? Just let us rent NPCs for places and never speak to each other. (I still remember how unfriendly 1.0 was just before it's ending.)

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Originally Posted by Velox

On a related note for this discussion, the community has to stop saying "well the tank sets the pace of a dungeon." That is not true at all, and the more people continue to say it, the worse the playerbase becomes.

The PARTY sets the pace for every instance.

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They say it because it's true. When I DPS the dungeon I follow their lead. If they go slow and steady I respect that and follow suit. If they wanna go guns blazing and pull everything I'm cool with that too. I'm not going to force anyone to do anything they don't want to. I'm certainly not gonna go pull additional enemies the Tank hasn't yet. That's just an asshat move, I've been seeing more of lately.

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Originally Posted by Sousoulsu

When I'm able, as healer, I force the tank to speedpull by pulling the next pack while they're flashing the one pack they pulled.
They get mad but everyone else in the group seems relieved.

It's a general community consensus, which means people should purrobably get used to speedrunning, or take their own advice and form up "slowrun" parties :3c

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Oh so you're one of those huh? Do that to me and I'll let the mob kill you. And no it's not a general consensus.

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Originally Posted by RaizeGraymalkin

Oh so you're one of those huh? Do that to me and I'll let the mob kill you. And no it's not a general consensus.

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Good thing she does not team with me when I tank, because she'd be the deadest healer you ever seen...

And on and on the subject of forming PF's, "Habitual" Speed Runner's have the same options as well, you can form a PF if you want it done in a certain time frame or deal with what team you get.

I really don't care if people don't want to pull like everything up to the boss in a single pull, but as annoyed as many of you folks are by that, many others are equally if not more annoyed by people who pull like 2 mobs at a time and call it a day. Like, Amdapor Keep (Hard). You really want to do that 2 mobs at a time, when you can easily pull far more with zero chance of any real danger? Maybe some people super enjoy fighting trash, but it's really not interesting. I suspect many people only do dungeons at all to get tomes, and just want to get it over with.

I prefer to do as few dungeons as possible, and get most of my tomes doing something else, but it's obvious that most people want to speed through it because they are running the dungeon many many times in a week and want it to be over asap.

The way I see it, the devs answer to this speed running plague was to make it so no matter how good your gear and strategy was, that there was only so much you could get to with out curb stomping a smaller group. Snow Cloak rooms you could pull maybe a few packs at once before you got to a gate that wouldn't open till they were all dead. As well as Satasha HM, Quran HM, and now as of AK HM Agrius, and WP HM it's become the norm. You speed runners had your fun curb stomping things in 5 minutes in 2.2 and 2.3 well now the devs have decided starting in 2.4 that they aren't going to let you do that any more. Adapt or go play WoW where they still allow pulling the whole dungeon at once.

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Originally Posted by Sousoulsu

I was once kicked from a dungeon for not using Regen on every party member.
is that a valid reason to hate anything aside from those particular misinformed people?

Go ahead and list your reasons to "hate" speedrunning.

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Nope. I won't list them, but I will list why I won't:

1. It's none of your business.
2. I've said just about all I need to say on the matter in nearly every thread that's ever existed about it ever.
3. The aforementioned reason lies less with the speed running itself (which I've already mentioned I find boring - this contradicts #1, I'm aware) and more with the negative impact it's had/caused on the community in general.
4. I don't intend to debate with you as we're likely to not agree on the matter. Ever.
5. Plenty of the valid points already made are in line with my own reasons.
6. See #1, #2, and #5.

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Originally Posted by Sousoulsu

Your lack of experience with speedfasts is showing.
Tanking a speedpull and tanking a single pull is different in the following ways:
1)Managing cooldowns is important
2)Knowing what cooldowns your healer has is important
3)Shield swiping certain mobs makes some otherwise impossible pulls possible
4)managing aggro during the pull is important to make sure your re-stoneskinning healer doesnt get hit
5)picking which targets to get rage of halone debuff up on is important
It is far more engaging to tank a speedpull.
There's more difference in speedrunning and single-pulling than "just do more of the same".

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1. Tanks should be doing that anyway. Unless you just seriously over gear the dungeon then it doesn't matter. Speaking of which, does an ilvl 120-130 tank REALLY need to use cooldowns when speed running Brayflox HM with an equally geared healer and DPS? Yeah they have been ilvl synced to 110. What about CM? Not really for either. Why, because our gear is so great now. Which most would rather have ZERO level syncs at all, thus making us over gear that many MORE dungeons by a greater degree, thus needing to use exact cooldowns even less. Newer dungeons? So many gates can't really do a lot of mass pulls like before. Also in the newer dungeons, they hit harder, or have more various AOEs crowding you. What is that "lesser" geared tank of appropriate gear going to do on small pulls anyway? Use their cooldowns efficiently. As a tank you are already doing that, when gearing up, as being lower geared, you have to do that because you have less gear. And now that you are well geared, and do mass pulls, you are still doing that. More of the same.
2. You actually keep track of exactly when a healer will use a cooldown, know exactly when it fades, and exactly how many seconds until it can be used again, for all cooldowns for both a WHM and a SCH has, during the entire run? You question each and every healer what cross skills they use so you know exactly which cooldowns they have as well? You completely change how you pull if they Swiftcast Stoneskin II right before a pull, versus slow casting it, knowing they have that Swiftcast in their back pocket? If they already used Eye for an Eye or Virus?

3. Counting on RNG to make an impossible pull possible? So what about WARs?

4. Managing enmity on a pack means doing what exactly? Mainly using your area-agro abilities MORE than on lesser pulls. 3 mobs, 5, 10. You just have less room to play around and generally have to use your AOE skills more often, the more you grab. 3 mobs you can keep rotating targets throughout your rotations. 10? Not going to be hitting all 10 throughout a rotation, that's the AOE skill doing that.

5. That sounds like 1-2-3 things. And if your BLM gets some lucky crits in a row, or your melee DPS going hard on different targets, you can less afford to do your combos, because you will do more of your area enmity abilities. Or have to do your Flashes in between each combo step, greatly slowing down when you CAN get that Halone debuff. Most packs of multi-mobs are very similar. Without doing mass AOE spamming, you can really only have that debuff on 2 mobs. The more you have to pause your combo rotations to keep Flashing, you may only be able to keep that debuff on one thing. So, out of a pack of 10 or so mobs, it is vitally important that ONE of them has that debuff? It seems better that you finish the combo to really nail down enmity on something, more than lowing the STR on something by 10%. And what about WAR? You have to use 3 cooldowns to put a debuff on a target, and ALL 3 of those skills have no enmity bonus to them, not like Halone. It may be a bit before you can ill afford to use 3 skills that have zero extra enmity tied to them. Meanwhile that one thing that is so vital to slightly debuff is beating on you full force. And on a big pull of 10, it is REALLY going to make a difference when only ONE is debuffed on a pack of 10?

I get it that it is not EXACTLY more of the same. You pull a single thing, you not going to blow through a bunch of cooldowns and keep flashing. You might never flash, or just once initially. Pack of 10, you going to flash a lot more. I get that. But it is still more of the same. Especially when you get past about 4 mobs. You will be doing almost the exact same thing on a pack of 4, versus 10. More AOE enmity skills, more cooldowns, etc.

Not trying to argue, I just don't see some of these points. Each person has their own idea of fun, and that is what this all boils down to. Both sides largely wants the player base to play where each individual find a run enjoyable. Somewhere in the middle the two sides meet and this friction occurs.

Like you mentioned this:

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Originally Posted by Sousoulsu

I just hate it when poetics geared tanks do single or double pulls. It's extremely boring.

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To correct that, you find it extremely boring when ANY tank does a single or double pull. Why would it be boring for a Poetic geared tank to do that, and not boring for a little over the minimum requirement tank to do that, where you may additionally have to hold back damage from fear of pulling enmity? Is it not also boring when you feel like you are forced to continuously re-hash "old" content? You just want it done and over with as quick as possible, because going that that dungeon YET AGAIN is not fun for YOU. Yet you do it for whatever reward you are aiming to get.

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Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

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I posted numbers as a matter of principal. Realistically, a DRG in dungeon content is a hinderance. However, making lemons out of lemonade is what DF is all about.

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And something you are forgetting, prior to 2.4 DS was weaker than a Non-Comboed RoT which is why it fell out of rotation. And it still messes up my rotations as, even though it's not required for the combo, my chaos thrust combo still does extra damage from the rear.

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You are, to put it bluntly and simply, wrong. It is irrelevant if a move fell out of rotation: It was buffed, and is now optimal damage per GCD/TP cost - and CT doing more damage from the rear has no bearing on AoE. It is entirely irrelevant to the subject. I have no idea why you would bring it up, unless you don't understand that Doom Spike's potency is multiplied by a number equal to the number of enemies it hits.

If you have trouble hitting the optimal amount of mobs with Doom Spike, that is your failing as a player. I do not "main" DRG. I play it occasionally though, and I have no trouble with hitting the amount of mobs that would make DS worth using over RoT.
Of course, it relies on situational awareness. On some pulls it is not possible to optimally DS, and good DRGs will know the times when to DS and when to RoT. But I have not found it problematic on most big pulls to do the method I mathed out as superior.

You seem to think of yourself as an exceptional player, but from what I've seen you post, the most I can really say is that you are a mediocre Dragoon.
You tout yourself as a "Carrier DRG", but all you're really doing by saying that is proving how meaningless that self-stated title can be.

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Originally Posted by Zedd702

Good thing she does not team with me when I tank, because she'd be the deadest healer you ever seen...

And on and on the subject of forming PF's, "Habitual" Speed Runner's have the same options as well, you can form a PF if you want it done in a certain time frame or deal with what team you get.

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Originally Posted by RaizeGraymalkin

Oh so you're one of those huh? Do that to me and I'll let the mob kill you. And no it's not a general consensus.

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Choosing for a dungeon to fail when it is within your power to make it succeed? That sounds like [Harassment] :3c

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

Nope. I won't list them, but I will list why I won't:

1. It's none of your business.
2. I've said just about all I need to say on the matter in nearly every thread that's ever existed about it ever.
3. The aforementioned reason lies less with the speed running itself (which I've already mentioned I find boring - this contradicts #1, I'm aware) and more with the negative impact it's had/caused on the community in general.
4. I don't intend to debate with you as we're likely to not agree on the matter. Ever.
5. Plenty of the valid points already made are in line with my own reasons.
6. See #1, #2, and #5.

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What you say in this post is that you have no response to my inquiry?
Why even post in the thread, then? What you posted is effectively spam.

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Originally Posted by Mykll

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This is a long one, so I may have to answer it in multiple posts.
1)I've healed i90 Tanks in KotL, WP(H), and AK(H). They did not need to use any defensives whatsoever. The only thing that would make them need to do so is if they were to multipull, which they opted not to do.
2)Yes, I keep track of the group's relevant defensive cooldowns. Tank CDs, Apocatastasis, DPS' e4e (if I notice they're using it), PLD's cover, etc.
I find it second-nature. I understand many people don't go this far(possibly why they have trouble with and dislike speedruns), but it's a good idea to keep track of major CDs.

3)It's hardly RNG with large pulls. Shield Swiping the Vuln. Down/Splash mobs in Pharos (when that was somewhat difficult to do in the first pull) made an impossible pull possible. With WARs, you get the benefit of higher damage output from the tank, so the net result is roughly the same time in the dungeon.
4)by managing aggro I more mean making sure every enemy is hit as you keep running to get more. If an enemy only has prox aggro, a healer re-stoneskinning or casting e4e o nyou will draw aggro. As for during the pull though, I'd say it's more interesting to manage aggro and give yourself room to 1-2-3 things to get debuffs up on them than it is doing single pulls.

5)This whole thing just seems like you aren't used to this style of clearing content.
After establishing hate (1-2 flashes) you are actually generally safe to 1-2-3 a large, hard-hitting enemy in the pack because the mobs will be stunned for 5.5 seconds, just enough time for you to flash back or Cover anybody who's riding your threat. This is the sort of thing a good tank will do that does not need to be done when you are single-pulling. It should not be surprising that players need to be better when you are doing large pulls.

I'll address your multiple "What about WARs?" points now:
PLDs and WARs bring different things to the table. PLDs bring utility and relatively safer pulls. WARs bring.. ..Damage.
Both are useful. Some pulls are harder with a WAR than a PLD. PLDs are generally better for speedruns because they can do pulls that WARs simply cannot, but both are useful and the difference in time between the two tanks is negligible, unlike the differences between the two healers. Unfortunately, WHMs are strictly better for speedruns.

And now, I will address what you said about

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I just hate it when poetics geared tanks do single or double pulls. It's extremely boring.

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That was a statement psoted as example. An overgeared tank should not be single-pulling, period. Even if the healer at the exact gear level to queue in; the tank's overgearing makes double and triple pulls easy to heal through. The healer may not be able to DPS, but the run will go faster with multipulls.
It's boring, but I don't get frustrated when a new or low-geared tank does small pulls; but even an at-ilvl tank can do most double-pulls with general ease.
Dungeon content is very, very loosely tuned. You can get through it with doublepulls with a tank that spams flash and doenst use cooldowns, a healer who spams heals into the tank, and DPS who spam their 1 on mobs - as long as boss mechanics are handled properly.

There is no feasible excuse for doing single-pulls in a level 50 dugneon.

Its probably safe to say that any discussion with Sousoulso is kind of useless, because .... well firstly he only knows numbers, secondly he only takes his own opinion as relevant and lastely he ignores most things we say.

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Originally Posted by Sousoulsu

And now, I will address what you said about

That was a statement psoted as example. An overgeared tank should not be single-pulling, period. Even if the healer at the exact gear level to queue in; the tank's overgearing makes double and triple pulls easy to heal through. The healer may not be able to DPS, but the run will go faster with multipulls.
It's boring, but I don't get frustrated when a new or low-geared tank does small pulls; but even an at-ilvl tank can do most double-pulls with general ease.
Dungeon content is very, very loosely tuned. You can get through it with doublepulls with a tank that spams flash and doenst use cooldowns, a healer who spams heals into the tank, and DPS who spam their 1 on mobs - as long as boss mechanics are handled properly.

There is no feasible excuse for doing single-pulls in a level 50 dugneon.

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YES THERE IS. IT DOES NOT MATTER WHAT MY GEAR IS - IF I DONT WANT TO YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO FORCE ME.
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Get that in your mind.

People have different playtyles. Some play for raids. Some play for roleplaying. Some play for low end content. Other play to do gathering / crafting. Others play just for fun, play for glamour.
Everyone has a different reason.
Everyone likes to do it another way.
Noone has the right to force anyone to play the way he likes.

If i want to do masspulls, i check if a) my group can handle it b) if they want to.
If i dont want to do masspulls, i dont do it.
If you want masspulls - play as tank.

/over and out. Discussing stuff with this guy is complete waste of time. For hi m there is no indivuduality, only numbers, his own opinion and how much time he can win by speedrunning everything.

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Originally Posted by Rasylia

Its probably safe to say that any discussion with Sousoulso is kind of useless, because .... well firstly he only knows numbers, secondly he only takes his own opinion as relevant and lastely he ignores most things we say.



YES THERE IS. IT DOES NOT MATTER WHAT MY GEAR IS - IF I DONT WANT TO YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO FORCE ME.
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Get that in your mind.

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I'm doing everything but ignoring what people say. I am responding to it point by point. This is what a discussion is. I'd like to see people's opinions and assertions backed up with reasoning.

I do not "only know numbers', though. I also know that situation awareness is what makes a player good. You should be able to tell if the current situation requires you to use RoT or DS. Numbers can not tell you that. They are just useful to math out if an ability is worth using in a given situation.

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Originally Posted by Rasylia

Everyone has a different reason.
Everyone likes to do it another way.
Noone has the right to force anyone to play the way he likes.

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True. But I would like to see people's reasonings for why they think a certain way. They get upset with me when I ask them to quantify their playstyle.
I like speedrunning because it is challenging light-party content, and I like small groups over large, and there is no content currently in the game that is a genuine challenge for light parties outside of speedrunning.
^Fully quantified opinion. It is an opinion, but I quantify it with understandable reasoning.

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/over and out. Discussing stuff with this guy is complete waste of time. For hi m there is no indivuduality, only numbers, his own opinion and how much time he can win by speedrunning everything.

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You only think discussing anything with me is a waste of time because you don't like the way in which I quantify things.
Amewsing :3

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Originally Posted by Sousoulsu

You only think discussing anything with me is a waste of time because you don't like the way in which I quantify things.
Amewsing :3

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Completely wrong. I dont discuss anything with you anymore because you ignore what people WANT.
They do not WANT to speedrun - you start pulling. They dont WANT to masspull - you ignore it and pull more.

You try to force your playstyle onto other people. And THAT is why im saying you are hopeless.

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Originally Posted by Rasylia

Completely wrong. I dont discuss anything with you anymore because you ignore what people WANT.
They do not WANT to speedrun - you start pulling. They dont WANT to masspull - you ignore it and pull more.

You try to force your playstyle onto other people. And THAT is why im saying you are hopeless.

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Do you know what happens when I do that?
The dungeon run goes faster, and the other players comem me.
I am never overtly impolite. I always say that I am having no trouble healing and that they can safely pull more. When they do not, I "accidentally" aggro another pack. And I heal through it. And the group's AoE is more potent.

If it is the general consensus of the group aside from who is tanking, why should the tank get to decide?
They should not. 3 to 1 wins in the "Playstyle-forcing" department. If they do not want to speedrun, they should queue with a DF group :3c

if nyew really donyot want to discuss anyaathing with mew anyaameowre, nyew need simply cease nyewr replying! m^^m

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Originally Posted by Sousoulsu

If it is the general consensus of the group aside from who is tanking, why should the tank get to decide?
They should not. 3 to 1 wins in the "Playstyle-forcing" department. If they do not want to speedrun, they should queue with a DF group

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See? You dont get it. If you want to speedrun, go with a full df group.
It goes both ways. Just because YOU WANT TO you think EVERYONE has to adapt to you.

If an Ilvl 130 Tank sais "i dont want to speedrun" you say "you are overgeared, its a waste"
All you can respond to is "more effiicent" "waste of time" "i want to" "if they dont like it, make a full group"

Everyone has to adapt to your playstyle. But hey, you are right. I will stop responding now. Talking to you is like telling a Ilvl 130 Elitistic scumbag that not evey casual is bad and he is not "pro" just cause he has killed T13. Oh wait.

Okay I read the OP but the first few replies made me just skip the rest. So I'll just give my 2 gil and move on . . .

As a healer, a GOOD healer, that is (no ego here, really), I completely respect and honor what the tank wants to do. I go at the pace that the tank is comfortable with. Why? because I am the one responsible for healing him, and the tank knows what he is comfortable with pulling. I also LOVE it when the tank, who knows they set the pace, ASKS the group "Hey, guys, are you comfortable with speed pulls or . . . ?" Me, personally, am confident as a healer and I'll tell the tank they can go as fast or as slow as they want - I'll heal through it. Really this is a convo between healer and tank because DPS should be able to deal with whatever we do - all they need to do is DPS so it doesn't matter - but as long as the tank and healer are comfortable with the pull rate and damage ratios, all is well in the run. Like it or not, the tank is in charge, and the healer is like the first officer of the ship, with the DPS being the rest of the crew.

If folks want a speed run, they have no right to be in the DF. They need to grab one of the 200 friends they have crammed into their friend list (seriously, this is a SOCIAL game - if you don;t have friends uninstall now and go play a single player game or PvP game like CoD where friends are never needed), or grab FC mates, or maybe even use the PF to pre-form a party that communicates BEFORE the queue and agrees on a pull speed. If you DF, you go with the flow - period - end of story.

When i queue up in DF for a random PUG, I expect to go at the rate the party goes at - meaning the tank's pull rate. I am always pleasantly surprised to heal through a speed run, but I always EXPECT a slow run if I use the DF. That's just common sense.

There's my 2 gil. Now on to waste more time during this maintenance :)

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Originally Posted by Faelandaea

As a healer, a GOOD healer,

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Hahahahahahaha

after reading that, didn't even have to read the rest.

I agree OP, it seems like most of the playerbase is out to zerg all content as fast as possible. I don't tank a lot of the content anymore unless its an FC group or with friends because I got tired of the rush, rush, rush attitude a looooong time ago. If the zergfest is agreed upon at the beginning of the dungeon between all of its members its kosher. Tanks call the speed of the dungeon since they have the defensive capabilities and gear to do so. If that really bothers people when they que up and consistently don't like the pace people are generally running it as, feel free to roll your own tank and then you can call the shots. We wait long ques as dps classes and to a lesser extent healing classes for a tank to simply show up in our que. Do you like that wait? Keeping people on a constant time clock (who don't want to be) when they are logged on a game like they are at work obviously isn't fun for everyone (hence this thread). ...and people wonder why there's a tank shortage.

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Originally Posted by Its_Elodie

Keeping people on a constant time clock (who don't want to be) when they are logged on a game like they are at work obviously isn't fun for everyone (hence this thread). ...and people wonder why there's a tank shortage.

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On the contrary there is just as much people who would tank and pull the whole damned street, if only the other 3 members are competent enough. Times when I enter as tank, I look at how my DPS do their job and how the WHM just stood there AFKing instead of throwing a holy or two to make things more fun, I'd say screw it, I rather queue as BLM and blow things up.

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Originally Posted by Staris

Hahahahahahaha

after reading that, didn't even have to read the rest.

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Hehe well I had to troll a LITTLE bit. In all seriousness though, tank and healer decide the pace, DPS go pew pew, if folks want speed runs preform a party and stay the hell away from the DF - end of story. :)

Come on patch, you done yet? .... By the way, you can start downloading now.....


Well I do appreciate Sousoulsu replying to me without resorting to any name calling or anything derogatory.

Tanks SHOULD be making an attempt to use their defensive cooldowns. Especially PLD, they have so dang many of them. Use the most optimum rotation of them regardless of size of pull, no, but even on small pulls, at least make an attempt. Show especially your healer you know they exist.

I sort of keep track of abilities that have been used, but I don't necessarily go as far as changing how I pull, depending on what cooldowns I noticed the group use. That is what I took as what you wrote initially, that you pay attention to what has been used and change your pulls accordingly. Maybe I did not understand that. I know I am wired differently, as an example on Eye for an Eye, if I am someone that can use that, and someone else in the group can use it, if they use theirs first I won't use mine on the tank as soon as theirs wears off. I check the debuff on the mob, if it still has it, and only when that debuff wears off, do I then give mine to the tank. Little things like that. To me it is like re-casting regen when regen still has half it's time left.

That makes sense about managing agro, making sure everything is hit and on the tank so the healer can start to do something. As a tank, it annoys me when the healer casts regen right before a pull, and as a healer it annoys me when the tank smacks one thing and then runs off to the next pack, proximity only agro mobs in tow. Then he needs a heal, and I still see a bunch of orange names that haven't turned red yet.

Yes if you have your WHM stunning, you have some extra seconds. More often than not, you have no idea what your group is going to do once you pull. They can say they are ready for large pulls, but you have no idea if that healer is ready to dps, ready to purely heal the large spikes, or what. Most of the time I can't count on that extra stun time (either WHM won't, or the stunnable DPS jobs fire their off right away, greatly shortening the overall stunned time on a few mobs) and if that NIN gets some lucky opening crits he can tear something off me. It seems at times DPS popping their cooldowns can overpower what Flash is able to hold.

I read your comments as saying without the PLD Shield Swipe, and without getting that Halone 10% STR debuff on exactly the right mob, then large pulls are impossible. So that is why I brought up WAR. They don't have either and can still do it. Not talking about the overall time inside the dungeon, just talking about surviving those hits from a mob that is not Pacified or STR debuffed. I probably took your comments wrong on that.

I LOVE dungeons. I live inside them. I leveled everything up inside dungeons. My favorite time in any game is running a dungeon with a group of people. I love co-op, don't care much for PVP. There is a point down the road. Someone, and I'm too lazy to go back to find it, was asking exactly why someone doesn't care for speed runs. I can do speed runs as any role I am just not comfortable with them. Maybe more of a bad taste in my mouth, thanks to WoW. WoW began nerfing the crap out of their dungeons. Sunken Temple was it that I think 3 complete floors were removed from it? Blackrock Depths, where the "finish line" was put almost right inside the entrance, so groups would speed run to that and leave. Many more dungeons were dumbed down to an AOE zerg fest tunnel run. People with bad attitudes would talk crap about my gear, whether normal or heroics. Why? I can use that dungeon for gear upgrades, but because I was not so over geared for the place I would constantly be railed against. Thank you Gear Score. The many great tactics of yester-year, Warlock or Hunter pet off-tanking, Hunter CC traps, Rogue sap, Mage polymorph, Priest undead root, you would be laughed at, talked down to if you used any of those. Why? Nothing but an AOE zerg fest.

Which is what my great fear was all the time leveling up in FFXIV. Ok, there are no "plows" in this game, great, but will those attitudes come back at level 50 when we start over gearing places? See Speed Runs and Hunts for your answer. Or all the times like CM, where groups will almost demand that a new player be present for the bonus, but not let that player really experience the cut scenes and the fights.

When I used to play D&D Online, I loved how they did dungeons. Extra EXP for smashing things, extra EXP for killing over a certain number or percentage of mobs, extra EXP for rogue stuff like traps, etc.

So, why do I have a bad taste in my mouth for Speed Runs and Hunts, other than some of the attitudes some may encounter during those times in this game? Goes right back to WoW. There is my valid reason, for me.

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Originally Posted by Mykll

So, why do I have a bad taste in my mouth for Speed Runs and Hunts, other than some of the attitudes some may encounter during those times in this game? Goes right back to WoW. There is my valid reason, for me.

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I read everything you typed, but this particular bit stands out the most to me.
I agree that in other games, Speedrunning would annoy me in random groups because some of those dungeons are actually threatening the way they were intended to be done.
With WoW, there are now Challenge Mode dungeons for people to speedrun if they want to.

Your sentiment rounds off your opinion nicely; but the way XIV dungeons are designed is the reason I don't think anti-Speedrun sentiments hold any water. If trash were threatening and had interesting mechanics and the dungeon designers trusted players to be at least a little competent, speedrunning would be much less of a thing.
That said, I can understand the sentiment of speedrunning being bad, thinking back to games that actually had interesting/challenging/mechanic-heavy non-boss content in dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Sousoulsu

What you say in this post is that you have no response to my inquiry?
Why even post in the thread, then? What you posted is effectively spam.

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Oh believe me, it took 12 pages, I think, before I even finally worked up the energy to respond here. Again, see #2. This isn't the first thread about this. This isn't even the fifth one. And this isn't even the tenth time I've said/am saying exactly what I'm saying now. So let me at least try to make it somewhat interesting this time around:

No, you don't get the satisfaction of a counter-argument. I'm not going to bother giving you reasons - factual or opinion based - to attack or dispute. Keep the numbers and the rationalization. Seen it, heard it, still hate speedruns. No matter which class. And frankly, that seems like more of a problem for you than it is for me. I'd wonder why, but I have about as much interest in that as I do speedruns.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

Oh believe me, it took 12 pages, I think, before I even finally worked up the energy to respond here. Again, see #2. This isn't the first thread about this. This isn't even the fifth one. And this isn't even the tenth time I've said/am saying exactly what I'm saying now. So let me at least try to make it somewhat interesting this time around:

No, you don't get the satisfaction of a counter-argument. I'm not going to bother giving you reasons - factual or opinion based - to attack or dispute. Keep the numbers and the rationalization. Seen it, heard it, still hate speedruns. No matter which class. And frankly, that seems like more of a problem for you than it is for me. I'd wonder why, but I have about as much interest in that as I do speedruns.

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Yet you take the time and effort to type to me about how little you care about the subject at hand.
If only I had the time to respond to a topic I don't care about~ Maybe then I'd appreciate slowrunning more! :3c

If it's a topic that's come up so frequently, it should be relatively clear to you that speedrunning is a play style choice in the community that will not go away. As players get better at the game over time, I expect to see anti-speedrunning sentiments to dwindle lower and lower. It's the natural progression of things like this in MMO communities.

While it is up to individual interpretation, I've responded civilly to everything in this thread. I am genuinely curious about why people opt to do single pulls rather than multi. You've contributed nothing to this inquiry, and are replying with spam.
{I'm sorry.}

The way I see it, for many dungeons tanks need to wait 5s to enter their duty, healers too, while DPS may have to wait more than 30min.
If the tank doesn't want to rush then: either 2 DPS need to kick him or 1 healer 1 DPS. As a result they'll have to wait a long time for a new tank to join their party. Or they can comply with the tank's rules because they want to finish that dugeon even if it lasts 5 more minutes :)

Basically, you have power over them, so do what you please as a tank. It doesn't matter if you think your decision is good or bad or that it doesn't even have a meaning to talk about good or bad, it's just that you are stronger and you decide...

Seriously, I'm a BLM and I have been abused many times by stupid tanks/healers and whatever I think, I just have to deal with it.

I could now tell you what I think about these attitudes but it would only be talking about human nature vs human ideals. Don't get me started :P

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Originally Posted by Sousoulsu

Choosing for a dungeon to fail when it is within your power to make it succeed? That sounds like [Harassment] :3c

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Nice try toots. You did that when you decided to put the tank shoes on the band-aid of the team... Don't blame the tank because you decided to step out of your role for your own selfish reasons. Play your role, not mine. If you want to tank as the healer, feel free, just give me a few seconds to pop some popcorn and get my drink, because that will be a very entertaining show.

Oh and feel free to vote kick me as a tank, because I'm sure :rolleyes: you'll find another as soon as I'm gone and I would not hesitate to file my own report...

Harassment works in many ways...

Dungeons are time consuming. If you've ran it more than once, and your gear is worth a darn, you should atleast pull mobs 2 groups at a time. Anything less is just silly.

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Originally Posted by Steady

Dungeons are time consuming. If you've ran it more than once, and your gear is worth a darn, you should atleast pull mobs 2 groups at a time. Anything less is just silly.

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To be quite honest, this is actually habit for me (pulling two groups at once), unless I see that the healer is under-geared or inexperienced or if I, myself, am under-geared in comparison to the rest of the team so that I don't lose hate. But again that would be my call as tank to decide that...

Little kids these days are so spoiled. Dungeons are time consuming? What rock have you been living under? Any MMO with half a fraction of thought put into a true dungeon - it takes 45 minutes just for the party to buff up, prepare and position, and at least 5 - 6 hours to clear the dungeon with maybe a 10 minute break here and there at the trash pull areas. To say that running a dungeon even casually at 15 - 20 minutes each is time consuming . . . that's beyond impatience.

Speed pulls - preform your party.
Slow pulls - DF

End of discussion LOL

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Originally Posted by Faelandaea

Little kids these days are so spoiled. Dungeons are time consuming? What rock have you been living under? Any MMO with half a fraction of thought put into a true dungeon - it takes 45 minutes just for the party to buff up, prepare and position, and at least 5 - 6 hours to clear the dungeon with maybe a 10 minute break here and there at the trash pull areas. To say that running a dungeon even casually at 15 - 20 minutes each is time consuming . . . that's beyond impatience.

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Hahaha, that troll was stronk :3

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Speed pulls - preform your party.
Slow pulls - DF

End of discussion LOL

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True facts right here... When you want an Ex Primal done do you DF it and expect perfection? Nope, you form a PF for efficiency...

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Originally Posted by Sousoulsu

If it's a topic that's come up so frequently, it should be relatively clear to you that speedrunning is a play style choice in the community that will not go away. As players get better at the game over time, I expect to see anti-speedrunning sentiments to dwindle lower and lower. It's the natural progression of things like this in MMO communities.

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AND AGAIN.

You do it AGAIN and AGAIN and AGAIN.

PEOPLE WHO DONT WANT SPEEDRUNS =/= BAD PLAYERS.
What is so hard to understand. Just because not everyone is playing at 150%, oing his utmost best, and playing ONLY for effincy doesnt mean he is BAD. He is just relaxed, and doesnt take every little dungeon as T13 raid which requires everyone doing 100%.

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Originally Posted by Rasylia

YES THERE IS. IT DOES NOT MATTER WHAT MY GEAR IS - IF I DONT WANT TO YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO FORCE ME.
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Get that in your mind.

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Ya know Rasylia, I'm with you on this one. Sousoulsu is clearly an Elitist Troll. And that's an abomination even amongst other Elitists and Trolls. I doesn't matter what we say they have a spoiled and entitled mentality and are incapable of accepting the FACT that other viewpoints exist let alone understand them. So I'll let you give some constructive (AKA Valid) caresizim on my DPS.

Oh and Sousoulsu, it DOES matter if it fell out of rotation. The fact you don't know that means you should NEVER equip a DPS weapon again. Rotations are what govern our combos so if something isn't in the rotation we have to make a new one to use it.

Now as for my skills, I do what I like and have more than once out lasted a Tank that bit off more than they can chew. That isn't a gear thing it's a skill thing.

My normal rotation:
Open with Spin Dive/Dragon Dive --> start Chaos Thrust Combo on Single Target/Boss or HT+RoT combo for mass trash --> Use personal DoT speed combo phlebotomize -> Leg Sweep -> Fracture-> Jump/dive--> Repeat from step 2 while using buffs and cool downs as necessary.

My rotation is completely governed by situation. I've added Doom Spike to step two for any time the add count is 2-4 or less and I use the Full Thrust combo when I see fit. And I use Elusive Jump for high powered AoEs that I can't get out of in time due to animation lock but I try not to rely on it.