People selling runs, why not talking about it ?

If you can't sell carries, you shouldn't sell houses either. Because both encourages RMT. If one is acceptable, then both should be acceptable.

to be honest, more then once I thought of paying for those runs, instead of waiting 400mn+ each day until finally one day the run you miss pops, because it happens that you want to do it sync..and everybody wants only fast mode. I never did it but, even if I am against those practice, I cannot blame people for wanting to experience at least once the thrill of the fight whatever that fight is. Besides, if there are sellers there are buyers, cant blame the sellers for wanting money to buy a house out of price, right ?...or buy the best gears ...money is power, irl or ig is no diferent. Leave those that want to do that and just mind your own business..Nobody forces you to lower the prices and nobody forces you to make the prices prohibitives ones...market is market, business is business nobody's else business if not those that are in business....this is the first rule of thumb. I wish they were forbidden but is not soooo..life as usual

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Originally Posted by Starbirth

The market board sells items, not services. From what I've heard people who sell runs don't even give the items to the buyer and lets be honest that this is evidence of some deep rooted problems within the game.

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And? There is some super high priced items on MB for 5-50 million, what about those? It doesn't encourage at all? Please people I know admited buying gil because of the high price. It actually does more than those who buy runs.

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

Not everyone wants to learn, though. There's plenty of people out there with a pocket full of gil and an 'ain't nobody got time for that' attitude when it comes to content. They don't want a challenge, they want shiny loot. If people want to learn, I encourage them to do so but it takes work! I've noticed that a lot of the people that I've met that complain that they can't find people to help them clear don't really seem to be putting in a lot of effort toward it. "But there's no parties for it in party finder," is a really common excuse. You know what? Be proactive and make one. Go beat around every linkshell, knock on every friend's door, and shout around in every zone until it fills. Don't just sit there and stare at PF and whine about how run selling is awful for the community. There's nothing exploitative about selling a run to someone that doesn't want to learn the content anyway.

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I couldn't agree more!

In addition; that there is half of this community's problem. Nobody takes initiative. I'm sorry, but "There's no parties in party finder" is not a tolerable excuse to me. If you really, and I mean really want to learn the fight, you'll make the PF yourself and have it say "Learning Party"; but god forbid nobody wants to run with pugs. A lot of people would rather just sit around and wait for their FC to eventually carry them. And on other occasions, you get the "I tried to make a party but the party finder was taking forever to fill", well you know what sweetheart? That problem isn't going away anytime soon because even current tier content suffers that issue to. Unfortunately, we just have to suck that one up.

"So in the end, it boils down to two simple choices. Either you do or you don't. You'd think with all the problems in this world, there'd be more answers. It's not fair...
...But that's the way things are. The choice is yours."

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Originally Posted by SnugglesD

First, your third hand knowledge is wrong. Its expected to give the buyer the loot when you sell a clear. Some d-bags will have separate price schedules for clears with/without loot, but its not common. The only time you'll really see a lootless clear is when you buy it from a group that's loot locked for the week.

Second, there's absolutely nothing wrong with charging for services. What's wrong is expecting others to do something for you for free just because you want it. There is absolutely nothing in the ToS about selling services for in game currency.

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On my server the ones who advertise it don't. I never viewed offering services as some kind of black plague on the community its just an effect that happens when people become lazy or are unable to clear because other people don't have the competency to clear it. Many who sold Titan runs back in the day sold them to players who actually knew the fight but were held back by others. The only difference now is the population that has cleared AS is less than 1%.

As for the RMT situation it's nobodies fault but SE's. We still don't even have an in game report feature.

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Originally Posted by Seraphix2407

And? There is some super high priced items on MB for 5-50 million, what about those? It doesn't encourage at all? Please people I know admited buying gil because of the high price. It actually does more than those who buy runs.

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Sounds like a lack of competition to me. Its inevitable that discontinued items will rise in value over time but things like the relic items will go down as well. SE knows this and that's why all the seasonal stuff has been untradable these past few months.

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Originally Posted by RyuRoots

Clear sellers are a blight upon the community.

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I think the ones that expect housing size rewards for one or two clears are terrible, sure, because they make other static groups believe that they should demand that much to help players as well. That being said, I don't mind that there are static groups out there that will walk people through content in exchange for a reward. I used to bribe people in WoW with rare pets and other oddities to help me with tasks I didn't have a group for.

You won't catch me doing that in FFXIV because the prices groups expect for their help is insane, even for content in which the primary difficulty is simply finding enough bodies. The cost of a pony or even an old coil clear is enough to buy the raid group a full set of thavnarian glamour back at its most expensive market value. The ONLY explanation for someone having that much gil to throw around each week is RMT.

Selling clears doesn't promote RMT any more than overpriced minions do. Your whole argument is that selling anything for any substantial amount of gil automatically forces people to buy it with real cash. Laziness promotes RMT. Ignorance promotes RMT. SE promotes RMT with the way they devised the system.

People using a particular skill they possess to make a profit doesn't promote RMT, it makes them entrepreneurs.

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Originally Posted by Starbirth

Sounds like a lack of competition to me. Its inevitable that discontinued items will rise in value over time but things like the relic items will go down as well. SE knows this and that's why all the seasonal stuff has been untradable these past few months.

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Yes and no. The easter cherry tree is 5-8 mil on my server, and alooooooot of players wants it but it's not avaible anymore as they change the items each year is out.
Problem is the overpriced items, many wants them but they arent avaible in bulks or things that people rarely do anymore. Some of the seasonal stuff can be sold on MB, like housing items, the gear itself like the santa outfit isn't sellable, correct me if I'm wrong. But items like these will be overpriced once it's not obtainable anymore and people missed it because:
1: They werent on when this happened
2: New players
3: both?

uhhhh because everyone already has talked about it before.

Nobody cares, it has nothing to do with you, they are making Gil from doing this, its nothing new it was done in FFXI also.
Its been going on since beginning of FFXIV ARR release.

You can duty up and get yours done and totally ignore those people, I don't see how it effects you.

I am sure they have a Free company Bank and people actually run their shells with a point system and people get GIL for showing up for events.

Its the same as FFXI LS bank and the DKP system people used.

I highly doubt RMT are doing this because by the time they get up to 30-50+ they are always banned, I have not yet seen a RMT in heavensward cept one time and it was a botter though quickly reported and banned.

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Originally Posted by PArcher

You missed the point then. It's a rare player now that actually wants to learn the fights and progress if they aren't in the "first wave" of clearing. In general, waiting shows a lack of care fir the accomplishment, just wanting to get the clear to say they got the clear.

Yes, you are different, but most in your situation are just looking to get carried. And those also happen to be willing to pay for the clear if it's mentioned.

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No, I didn't miss your point at all, and I'm not even contesting it. Yes, there are people want to be carried through content and, indeed, through the entire game. You don't even have to wait for high-end/raid level content to see examples of that. I've seen it in Story and Hard mode content as well, where people want to just coast through everything, not lift a finger (except to lot on items), and let everyone else do the work.

However, you're arguing a point that's completely aside what I'm saying.

I'm saying "If you want to sell clears, and there's a market for it, then by all means, do so. Just be honest in your intentions, and don't stand on ceremony over a principle you don't even really hold to yourself. Don't pretend you care about keeping the difficulty of content for the sake of "preserving your own sense of accomplishment", when all you really care about is preserving the size of your in-game wallet. If you're willing to accept money to carry someone through, then you don't really give a crap about whether or not that person has earned their win."

Nothing I'm saying is in disagreement with what you're saying. It's two completely separate issues that happen to overlap within similar content.

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Originally Posted by PArcher

... but most in your situation are just looking to get carried.

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The fact that wanting to be carried may well be the most common reason for buying runs doesn't eliminate the fact that the second most common reason is wanting a chance to do the run properly yourself when you can't find 7 other people who also want to do it.

People in that second group, those who want to actually experience the game as it was meant to be played, get berated by those selling runs for not wanting a carry, at the same time as they get vilified by everyone else for the exact opposite, claiming they need a carry (which they neither need nor want).

(I haven't bought any runs, but only because I can't afford to. If I had enough gil to do so, I would be quite willing to buy runs from anyone who would let me genuinely run them.)

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Originally Posted by Niwashi

Stuff

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If im reading this correctly most groups that sell runs are ok with you participating. But if you cause the group to wipe then that is what you payed for and its duty abandoned. If you honestly feel you can clear it without mistakes im sure a group will allow you to stay alive.

I honestly have no idea why a person would purchase a run to not get carried when you can just set up a PF or get FC help for free. Sure it may take some time to get the group but once you start getting a small network of people you can clear whatever comes out in the future together if needed.

First of all, let people play however they want, being carried or not. You find tons of people who has bunch of friends but they get carried by their own fc or friends, for example stay dead, or dead most of the time or the performance is so bad (dps, handling mechanics etc.) I always prefer a player who wants help to clear content and know they can do it, meaning they been training somewhere else and just need a group to get them through it, then they perform good both dps and mechanics.

What about that one friend you have who play's bad as hell but didn't pay for the content but just performed so bad, it might as weel been 7 man kill? What about you who can't perform well but also the player who actually makes the party wipe? Many talk about if some one pays for content then it ruins for everyone who tries to clear the content, but the one player who bought the content is gonna end up in the party and screw everyone over? Don't forget, many players who cleared conent might not have paid for it, but they are those who got carried or just performed so bad, it might as well be called a carry.

The fact people selling content is a service. You have thos fc's or linkshells who brags all the time about how many members they have but yet they cant help their own memebers? I've had many of these players who are GREAT but simply can't get help from their fc or linkshells. I'm selling content or well was selling content (been a while now) because it's a service and if you good at something, you almost never do it for free. I mentioned earlier in this thread, ive seen some amazing players who been buying from me, I ended up using them for my own sell team.


So for starters, if you are againts people getting carried or paying for content, start with yourself, perhaps the fc/linkshell you own or is in, then start help people there. Many of these carries I've had are most of the players who simply can't get help. Main problem is people that can't even help their members, because they either play bad or never cleared the content. And you never did clear the content, then start with a group to do stuff together and then down the content. And if you did clear the content then help, dont sit around and wait for some one to end up buying, because you or your friends didn't want to help. In my fc we help ALL the time, including the linkshell I own. If people ask, I'm there to help.

And before people ask why I don't do it free for everyone, is because I need(ed) income in game which is gil, and to do that I need to do some sort of service. Crafting pre hw was my thing, now it's just bad and not worth it, so yes selling content made me get what I wanted. A house, vanity and also giving away over items, minions, hell even 4 small houses to people during holidays on my server. Was even reddit thread(s) about it, so I don't excactly feel bad selling content x).

ps: I'm tired, so there is alot of stuff I'm too cba to fix.

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Originally Posted by Seraphix2407

And before people ask why I don't do it free for everyone

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Imo its pretty selfish to assume the people that sell runs should carry you for free.

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Originally Posted by Niwashi

The fact that wanting to be carried may well be the most common reason for buying runs doesn't eliminate the fact that the second most common reason is wanting a chance to do the run properly yourself when you can't find 7 other people who also want to do it.

People in that second group, those who want to actually experience the game as it was meant to be played, get berated by those selling runs for not wanting a carry, at the same time as they get vilified by everyone else for the exact opposite, claiming they need a carry (which they neither need nor want).

(I haven't bought any runs, but only because I can't afford to. If I had enough gil to do so, I would be quite willing to buy runs from anyone who would let me genuinely run them.)

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See, the problem with the 'second group' is they are paying to be carried, not to experience a run with a good group "as it was meant to be played". Lot of groups would still insist that the person being carried, regardless of their skill or fight knowledge, to not participate in the fight to ensure the run went as smoothly as possible (because no one wants to be wiping to something that should have been 1-shot).

Also, from my experience, people wanting to just play with good players is not as common as you think; when I used to be on sell runs we sold a lot more to people looking for specific drops (and/or tokens after HW) than people just looking for a clear, and people buying to play with good people was basically non-existent.

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Originally Posted by Andrea

Imo its pretty selfish to assume the people that sell runs should carry you for free.

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Yeah I mean I help alot of people, but I did sell runs. But when I help people and the annoying part is they ask me to bring the good other players to tag along. If you want my help you ask me to tag along, you dont ask me to get the rest, which is sometimes annoying imo. :/. Ive done over 300 coil runs for people on my server for no fee and I even let them stay alive if they prefer to. I also do that with my buyers, if they prefer to stay alive and know they cant wipe us then its totally fine by me as well :).

I still don't understand whether selling runs is against TC or not. I remember reading that reporting these people would result in GM taking some kind of actions, but i couldn't find it anywhere so probably i just imagined it.

Anyway, i think that SE should do something so that even people who want to focus on DoW or DoM can make gills properly without investing time crafting and gathering. This would help reducing the number of players selling runs which does affect the community. In 2.X there were players being carried past Titan EX and thought they could clear Levi or Ramuh causing wipe after wipe.

It's frustrating for people who can't find a good party, but then again the fact that it's hard to find good training/kill/farm parties is also because of people who buy runs and join them without being experienced. It will happen soon with Alex Savage just like it did with Bismark > Ravana Ex. People will buy the first floors and expect they can join A3 making it even harder for groups that haven't a full party.

This game is made of layers .. there are raids that are just not meant for everybody or that will require to some player (including me) more time than the average to get past them. It's ok and the sooner the community accept this the better will be for the game.

Some of the prices in here are crazy. 6M for a T9, I wish I could sell it that high.

@Andres_lonegrief : Selling content is not against the Terms & Conditions at the moment. GMs treat a content sale the same as selling a piece of gear and they will hold both parties to the agreement if you can prove you made the agreement from what I understand. Most content sellers have a reputation that they like to uphold though and some of them become some of the most trustworthy people on the server.

I have had multiple people I do not know trust me with their Gil/Materia/Armor when trading across characters, looking for some place to store something, buy a run from me because they believe I am trustworthy just from how often my name is in PF doing sales without having a single complaint against me. I expect this is pretty common across all servers. I do not think I have yet heard of a group of sellers run off with someone elses money, and I suspect that is why SE is ok with content sales. Because it isn't disrupting people's experience with the game.

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Originally Posted by Andres_Lonegrief

Anyway, i think that SE should do something so that even people who want to focus on DoW or DoM can make gills properly without investing time crafting and gathering. This would help reducing the number of players selling runs which does affect the community. In 2.X there were players being carried past Titan EX and thought they could clear Levi or Ramuh causing wipe after wipe.

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While I will acknowledge that what you say does indeed happen a small part due to selling runs, I would be willing to be that more people get free carries from FC groups than groups selling.

Hell I myself have helped friends or friends of a friend out with passing content that I know they just aren't good enough to pass. Sure they could improve but they most times do not want to.

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Originally Posted by PArcher

See, the problem with the 'second group' is they are paying to be carried, not to experience a run with a good group "as it was meant to be played". Lot of groups would still insist that the person being carried, regardless of their skill or fight knowledge, to not participate in the fight to ensure the run went as smoothly as possible (because no one wants to be wiping to something that should have been 1-shot).

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Yes, and that's exactly the problem I was talking about. It's not the person paying for it who wants to be carried, they're too often being unwillingly forced into a carry because the ones selling runs prefer doing it that way, and insist that their own desires should outweigh those of their customers. The buyer's other option is to simply give up, not buy it, and so likely never get a chance to see that dungeon at all.

If you join someone just for sake of helping them and getting some tomes, then you're expected to work with them and make a real effort at completing the dungeon together. Anyone who just bails at the first hint of difficulty is (quite justifiably) regarded as being a terrible player. Yet somehow, when players are getting not only the rewards offered by the game itself, but also an often quite huge payment of gil as well, they suddenly decide that getting that extra payment entitles them to insist on everything going perfectly or they can bail on the person paying them, or worse yet, shut them out entirely. There's no excuse for such behavior even without getting paid. I'll never understand how anyone would accept it when someone is getting paid.

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Originally Posted by Niwashi

If you join someone just for sake of helping them and getting some tomes, then you're expected to work with them and make a real effort at completing the dungeon together. Anyone who just bails at the first hint of difficulty is (quite justifiably) regarded as being a terrible player. Yet somehow, when players are getting not only the rewards offered by the game itself, but also an often quite huge payment of gil as well, they suddenly decide that getting that extra payment entitles them to insist on everything going perfectly or they can bail on the person paying them, or worse yet, shut them out entirely. There's no excuse for such behavior even without getting paid. I'll never understand how anyone would accept it when someone is getting paid.

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When you sell your services to mow someones lawn do you expect them to help? No. Because you are selling the service, when you sell a run. You are selling a clear, not selling some one a tutor.

You don't expect your mechanic to teach you how to fix your engine problems. You pay him and expect him to do it for you. This is no different.

WTB: 100 Neverreap and 100 Wanderers Palace HM clears.

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Originally Posted by Ossom

When you sell your services to mow someones lawn do you expect them to help? No. Because you are selling the service, when you sell a run. You are selling a clear, not selling some one a tutor.

You don't expect your mechanic to teach you how to fix your engine problems. You pay him and expect him to do it for you. This is no different.

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But in this case, the service isn't to have the run done, it's to get the buyer themselves through the run. A closer analogy would be that you pay a tour guide to show you a city you're visiting, and the tour guide demands you just sit in your hotel room while they go drive through the city for you, since they can do that faster. It's probably quite true that a tour guide could drive through the city faster than they could take you through it, but you wouldn't be getting much out of it that way.

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Originally Posted by Niwashi

But in this case, the service isn't to have the run done, it's to get the buyer themselves through the run. A closer analogy would be that you pay a tour guide to show you a city you're visiting, and the tour guide demands you just sit in your hotel room while they go drive through the city for you, since they can do that faster. It's probably quite true that a tour guide could drive through the city faster than they could take you through it, but you wouldn't be getting much out of it that way.

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That's not necessarily a very close analogy either. Many people see raids as a means to an end - loot. As such there's plenty of people that don't care about experiencing the mechanics or clearing on their own as long as they get shinies. On the other hand, a tour is something you do for the sake of experiencing the sights yourself; there's no tangible loot to be had, really. If someone wants to learn the raid, they should join or make learning parties and clear parties to do so rather than paying for a clear.

Many veterans are willing to join learning/clear parties in order to help out. If I join one of those, of course I'm willing to help someone learn. I know what I'm getting into. When someone pays me for a clear though, they're paying for the amount of time it takes for us to clear in the most efficient manner possible. I'm not there to do hours of dicking around while they work through mechanics. Unless there's some kind of stipulation to the contrary, the buyer eats wall and lets us do our thing.

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Originally Posted by Niwashi

But in this case, the service isn't to have the run done, it's to get the buyer themselves through the run. A closer analogy would be that you pay a tour guide to show you a city you're visiting, and the tour guide demands you just sit in your hotel room while they go drive through the city for you, since they can do that faster. It's probably quite true that a tour guide could drive through the city faster than they could take you through it, but you wouldn't be getting much out of it that way.

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I would say that it's more like that tour guide asks you to stay inside the vehicle while they drive you around.

It sounds like you are on a pretty horrible server Niwashi. If you are having problems finding a group to enter Savage (and are competent yourself) then I recommend server swapping. The longest I've waited to find a pug is like 1 hour, and my server is not known for it's flourishing raid community.

My static refuses to teach people a fight. Because honestly, no one would be able to afford it. We can sell a Thordan run for 5M and be done in ~9 Mins. If we were to teach you to clear then it would take an hour minimum ( I taught my static Thordan and we had AS4 down by then and it still took us 3 Hours to down Thordan).

So if you wanna buy a clear were gonna charge you roughly 50-60M per hour, and thats for Thordan. We would probably sell AS3 learning per hour at at least 100M an hour just because of how much crap needs to be perfect in there. We actually can 7man AS3 easier than teaching a new person it honestly.

If you wanna pay that then I am pretty sure my static would be 100% for it, but I don't think anyone is paying that and that is why people don't want participants. Because they are a liability on whether or not a group is going to clear it. Most fights can be 7man, but fights can not be 7manned while there is an 8th person alive and actively screwing the rest of the group over by unintentionally messing up critical mechanics that causes wipes.

Heres something that I find funny that relates to this whole discussion in a way :

I get a lot of people asking me to carry them through AS3/AS4. They'll be like : "Ossom get me an As3 clear.", what they are asking me to do is to make a group of people for them to help them clear it. Which is honestly a joke. I'm supposed to find 6 other people who know the fight just to help you get a clear? It's not gonna happen. But I am willing to join any learning/clear PF I see if I have time and this is what I respond with.

Guess what happens though? They don't make a Learning/Clear PF for me to join because they don't want to learn the fight. Most people just want the clear without doing the work.

Sellers are offering a specific service (a clear) with specific terms (ie, buyer can't participate in the fight) for a specific price. Some may have options (loot/no loot, multiple runs) that can change the price, but not always. If the buyer is looking for something else not offered, he can try to negotiate, or just not buy.



I don't think the people looking to to "clear" a trial or raid with a group really know what it means to let them "experience the fight", especially the ones that require a bit more coordination and knowledge of the fight. I'm sure many don't understand just how much one person can screw up a run by moving the wrong way out of an AoE, being in the wrong position, DPSing the wrong add, failing a mechanic, etc. Some of these people also think they are either better than they are, or know the fight better than they do (or worse, both), and can cause issues due to their ignorance and stubbornness

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Originally Posted by Ossom

My static refuses to teach people a fight. Because honestly, no one would be able to afford it. We can sell a Thordan run for 5M and be done in ~9 Mins. If we were to teach you to clear then it would take an hour minimum
<snip>
I get a lot of people asking me to carry them through AS3/AS4. They'll be like : "Ossom get me an As3 clear.", what they are asking me to do is to make a group of people for them to help them clear it. Which is honestly a joke. I'm supposed to find 6 other people who know the fight just to help you get a clear? It's not gonna happen. But I am willing to join any learning/clear PF I see if I have time and this is what I respond with.

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When you sell a run, it's not the nine minutes or hour or whatever it is spent in the dungeon that justifies a price range in the millions. That part alone would barely bring in a hundredth of what you're charging. What you're really getting paid for is, at least primarily, the part about putting a viable group together. You said here yourself that that's the part that's "not gonna happen" when someone is asking it as a favor (but also that you will do it for 5M in the 9 min Thordan run you mentioned).

If you'd be willing to put a group together and then spend ~9 mins running something for 5M, or in other circumstances would be willing to spend an hour or more helping people learn it for free, how do those combine into needing at least 100M to do those in combination, putting a group together and then spending an hour or so helping someone learn it? Maybe adding a bit of a premium onto the fee would make sense, but not all that much of one, not when the major effort (building the group) is the same in either case.

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Originally Posted by Ossom

Guess what happens though? They don't make a Learning/Clear PF for me to join because they don't want to learn the fight.

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Or, more likely, they don't make a Learning/Clear PF because those don't work. Sure, you can put one up and spend several hours trying to talk people into joining it, just to have various people join at different times and then leave again because the party isn't full yet. It's not as though any of them are likely to wait all day with you for just the possibility of a single run. Short of getting one of them who will indeed find 6 other people (exactly what you yourself said is "not gonna happen" from you, and isn't very likely to from anyone else either), PF isn't likely to fill for anything except whatever is currently the most popular run.

(And if you get lucky enough that it does somehow fill, you have to just hope that your teammates don't bail at the first hint of trouble rather than working through it. Because, guess what, the first time someone tries new content, chances are they won't already be good at it yet, even if they're good at their job and have read over descriptions of the mechanics. There's a big difference between not wanting to learn a fight and not already being perfect at it before you've even been there.)

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Originally Posted by PArcher

Sellers are offering a specific service (a clear) with specific terms (ie, buyer can't participate in the fight) for a specific price. Some may have options (loot/no loot, multiple runs) that can change the price, but not always. If the buyer is looking for something else not offered, he can try to negotiate, or just not buy.

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I wouldn't really have a problem with this.

What I do have a bit of a problem with is people ignoring it when they go on and on about how anyone wanting to buy a run wants or needs a carry and can't earn it on their own. I don't think it's generally the buyers insisting on these sold runs being carries. From all I've heard, it seems to normally be the sellers insisting on that. (Admittedly, "from all I've heard" is hearsay. As I mentioned a few posts back, I haven't bought any runs myself.)

Every thread I've seen that discusses run selling, people keep claiming that the buyers just want to be carried. Yet whenever it's asked more specifically, the answer always seems to be that it's the sellers who don't want to offer anything else. Clearly, anyone who ends up buying anyway is willing to accept being carried if that's as close to a real run as they're going to have a chance for, but that's a far cry from saying that they either want or need it to be a carry. Many would prefer it wasn't. And many others who don't now buy runs would likely be willing to do so if they didn't have to be carries.

I do not "Put a group together" for any sales. My static sells runs during our raid time if we have all other content downed for the week. We don't go outside our raid time to handle a sale and I don't find people to form the 7 to sell the content.

I also do not sell services to find 6 other people. No one does that.

What I sell is the clear, and the loot. I do not sell the patience to put up with wipes. I do not put any group together for anyone. I will join groups to help people if they ask me though. But they need to put the group together because you can't pay me enough to try and get 7 people together to learn a fight for content I already have cleared. That's not for sale.

If someone made a PF and asked me to join, I'd join and we can start @ 2 and wait for it to fill up, I don't mind.

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Originally Posted by Ossom

I do not "Put a group together" for any sales. My static sells runs during our raid time if we have all other content downed for the week. We don't go outside our raid time to handle a sale and I don't find people to form the 7 to sell the content.

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Putting the group together was done when you formed your static. Sometimes groups who sell runs form that team for the express purpose of selling runs, and other times (probably more often) the static is formed for their own advancement, but then sells runs occasionally on the side. But in either case, they're able to sell runs because they have a static group already formed and advanced enough to clear the specified content.

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Originally Posted by Ossom

I also do not sell services to find 6 other people. No one does that.

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Well, essentially, anytime a static sells a run, they're doing that. No matter how good you are, nobody would be likely to pay you much just to join by yourself. You get paid because you have an entire static team with you (well, a team minus one, since the buyer needs a spot).

A potential buyer who doesn't have a static of their own but wants to complete a run has two choices. They can try to recruit a brand new team, finding seven other people all available at the same time and willing to run the same content they want. Or they can pay an already existing static team to do the run they want and bring them along. Building a viable team from scratch for the purpose of a single run is hard, frustrating, and more often than not unsuccessful (which I'd assume is why you say "you can't pay me enough" to do it). But getting an existing team to take an outsider along typically just costs a lot of gil.

That's the difference that justifies a cost in the millions. It's not because of the nine minutes you're willing to spend clearing something on behalf of someone else. It's because, by already having a full coordinated team capable of doing that, you're sparing the buyer from having to create one.

The cost comes from the guarantee that the content will be downed in a timely fashion with the buyer being the sole person who gets to roll on loot. That is where the cost comes from. It doesn't come for anything else, it doesn't come from the person getting to participate. It doesn't come from the person getting a reliable static for an hour. It doesn't come from the person learning to down the content. It comes from what the agreed upon sale was. The loot and/or achievement of the content being downed. Otherwise you are saying that I am allowed to take someones money and roll on the loot, or not even clear it honestly, because they didn't buy the loot or the clear, they bought us 7 people coming together to run content with them.

If that was the case I wouldn't get any buyers. "5M for 15Mins in Thordan with my static, no guarantee on Kill or Loot but you get have a static for 15Mins"

Do you think the buyer wants the guaranteed kill and loot or the faux static? (Anyone can find 6 other people who are down to wipe for 15Mins for 5M, hell I would sell that every day of the week)

Edit: A "Full coordinated team" is hours of work, week after week of banging our heads against content. This is why I say no one would be able to afford it because there really isn't enough gil in the game and enough use for gil to buy the time we spent handling content, gearing our characters up and learning how to effectively play our class. You can't not buy a static and that is not what any content seller on this game sells.

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Originally Posted by Niwashi

A potential buyer who doesn't have a static of their own but wants to complete a run has two choices. They can try to recruit a brand new team, finding seven other people all available at the same time and willing to run the same content they want. - - Building a viable team from scratch for the purpose of a single run is hard, frustrating, and more often than not unsuccessful.

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You do realize that people do this all the time, especially when content is new? Even people with statics will form parties in the PF, or through linkshells, and learn and farm content. This notion that you're either in a static, or you buy runs is, well, complete BS.

Yes, sometimes it will fail. Learn from it and move on. Blacklist the big problem players, get in contact with the good people. But most importantly, make sure *you* are not the reason these parties are failing. Because if it is you...well, you don't have much more choice than to be carried, do you?

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Originally Posted by PArcher

Because if it is you...well, you don't have much more choice than to be carried, do you?

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there is a frontier between being carried and learning a fight. People tend to mix both considering any and all that are in learning process, at times dying often and making dumb mistakes several times in a row, as them wanting to be carried. There is a difference but nobody wants to know about this *frontier* really.

Also someone that pays for a run doesnt necesseraly want to be carried he at times also just want an opportunity to try a specific fight and learn it.

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Originally Posted by MeiUshu

there is a frontier between being carried and learning a fight. People tend to mix both considering any and all that are in learning process, at times dying often and making dumb mistakes several times in a row, as them wanting to be carried. There is a difference but nobody wants to know about this *frontier* really.

Also someone that pays for a run doesnt necesseraly want to be carried he at times also just want an opportunity to try a specific fight and learn it.

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Yes, there is. But if every party you join fails, and people start to avoid you...

I love people who are willing to learn and put effort into fights, willing to admit mistakes and do what they can to improve. But there are people who are stubborn, who won't admit they are wrong...those are who that is directed at.

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Originally Posted by MeiUshu

there is a frontier between being carried and learning a fight. People tend to mix both considering any and all that are in learning process, at times dying often and making dumb mistakes several times in a row, as them wanting to be carried. There is a difference but nobody wants to know about this *frontier* really.

Also someone that pays for a run doesnt necesseraly want to be carried he at times also just want an opportunity to try a specific fight and learn it.

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This is absolutely true, but a sale party is not that place. It takes time to learn a fight. I do understand that it is very hard to find people to learn a fight in PF, because of many reasons. Mainly because its hard to give people feedback in PF, you do not know if they will accept the feedback/criticism or rage quit or fling insults or even just completely ignore you. But what Kytre is saying is right. You need to recognize the players who do this and recognize the players that want to get better. You also need to recognize your own flaws and make sure you are a later player and not the former.

One thing I find interesting is that there are plenty of sellers who openly admit to the practice but so very little who admit to buying a run for something. Do they feel some shame in doing so?

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Originally Posted by CrimsonThunder

One thing I find interesting is that there are plenty of sellers who openly admit to the practice but so very little who admit to buying a run for something. Do they feel some shame in doing so?

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the entire community shames run buyers. Run selelrs on the other hand, not so much. I do understand buyers for being quiet about it

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Originally Posted by Ossom

What I sell is the clear, and the loot. I do not sell the patience to put up with wipes. I do not put any group together for anyone. I will join groups to help people if they ask me though. But they need to put the group together because you can't pay me enough to try and get 7 people together to learn a fight for content I already have cleared. That's not for sale.

If someone made a PF and asked me to join, I'd join and we can start @ 2 and wait for it to fill up, I don't mind.

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I agree. I dont really own a group thats pure static for sales but I have enough so I know I can do it different times etc. However, I agree very much on that part when they ask for help, I will help but they need to put a group together, they can't always expect me to get people together, just because I know good players, doesn't always work like that.

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Originally Posted by CrimsonThunder

One thing I find interesting is that there are plenty of sellers who openly admit to the practice but so very little who admit to buying a run for something. Do they feel some shame in doing so?

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I think it's not always about shame, but rather that people will still call it a carry even when some of the buyers can complete the whole raid on their own with 7 other people, those people are simply the ones who can't get people to do it with or people around them just doesnt satisfy what they want, a good group to clear content. When this happens, people will still say: hey its bought content, you got carried. That's not always the case, they buy it for other peoples skill, the other people buy it for a pure carry. That's 2 different things imo.

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Originally Posted by PArcher

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yes but is way too easy to accuse those that learn, way too easy. As for the selling of runs, it is the only way to get passed some things, when you wait few hours in a row for nothing and nothing shows up, all you want to do is move forward and you cant because tha thing that you cant do prevents you from moving forward, that is when people want to pay for it...and some are lazy of course..but they arent the majority

I will just give you an example at halloween, there was a player offering 1million gil to accompany him in a dungeon because nobody wanted to do it, all he wanted was to do a creepy dungeon, was fully geared knew the place very well too and we went in unsync....and nobody not even her FC that found it boring did want to come along..those that went were those that received payment for it..how is that right ?..it isnt, right ?..the community as a whole is guilty of this situation.

yeah it happens