DRG has been broken for far too long. Fix it SE

Guess* not guys, stupid phone auto correct, and want let me edit.

I heared Dragoon will be fixed in patch 3.0
http://i.imgur.com/vXFWnym.jpg

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Originally Posted by Dragoonite

You're missing the point. It's not just about damage, it's about utility, survivability, synchronicity with other jobs, et cetera. Things that Dragoon is -required- to pay extra attention to for a result that barely scrapes by.

And yes, it is an exaggeration. It's a phrase, a saying, an idiom, to get a point across. Read between the lines, everything isn't just black and white.

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What exactly is drg having to pay attention to that other jobs dont? Raid mechanics are generally the same for everyone in the same role. Magee need to pay more attention to movement and timing to cast. (Melee don't at all). Mnk has to worry about positioning constantly and manage gl stacks that mechanics frequently push them to loose it. Nin needs to manage an entirely unique sub set of skills that no other job does that are hugely detrimental to screw up. Smn needs to manage their pet abilities and position in addition to caster limitations.

All the QQ is just Grass is greener syndrome. All I hear is how strong mnk is. How painful 2 positional moves are. I guess people don't die from animation lock anymore so now we have to find something else to complain about. I've been playing drg since i was lv1 for over a year and even made a 2nd char just to play it more while maining mnk and war on my primary, and recently changed to nin main, and im raiding in fcob and had previous coils all on farm status. Yes I raid. Ive litterally raided constantly on mnk, drg, and nin. Grass s always greener until your on the other side. Most fights aren't dummy parses. Mnk doesn't trounce all over drg to the obscene levels people reference except in a very limited set of encounters. I'm all for a boost in utility but if I believed what I read here I'd think drg falls over every time magic is cast(even as the highest he melee), there's never a bard to take advantage of piercing (ha!) every mob spins like a top with no rhyme or reason(tank troll I guess?), mnks never loose gl, and, somehow, despite mobs spinning like a crazy top mnk will still trash you because they manage to land their positionals. Oh and something something ninja op. Perspective is of great value. Try it on.

No big deal with drg. no need buff. Let me tell you why :D

1.We just lose 70potency and buff 15% damage with HT miss and waste 70tp extra. no biggy

2.Impulse Drive miss only lose +80 potency and DS +120 potency + 10% debuff + CT 200+30 dot 30s and waste another 70tp and miss a TT-VT-FT. see still no big deal

3.no probelm with weak mdef and all need to do is Learn to play right? Tell me how to take less damage from something like mega flare without full healer buff.

4.Even with perfect rotation still lose to mnk and nin. No biggy

5. 10%(6-7%) buff for single brd vs entire party 10%(6-7%) buff. No big different

6. goad vs no goad + brd lower 20% damage.

see there is no reason to not bring a drg along :D.
Seriously I mean we aren´t ask a big buff to has skyrock dps. But at least give us a bit less punishment and a bit close dps to mnk and nin.

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Originally Posted by Aana

Words

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I don't believe anything you say is true since you don't even know what the fundamental issue with Dragoon even is or why Monk and Ninja is a unbalanced and unhealthy issue.

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Originally Posted by Fayto

I don't believe anything you say is true since you don't even know what the fundamental issue with Dragoon even is or why Monk and Ninja is a unbalanced and unhealthy issue.

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Honestly at this point we should just stop feeding the troll.

Your point, Aana, misses the point completely.Yes, every job has their own issues. Dragoon has far more of them. So many, in fact, that they break the job. The lack of utility and weak defence are what you'd expect from a glass cannon, but the other half of that equation should be balanced by superior dps. Dragoons do not have superior dps. Their maximum dps is significantly below a monk/ninja, and it is much more difficult to achieve that maximum dps.

You bringing up skill and l2p and knowing the fight and the rest of it, again, misses the point. 'A good dragoon knows how monsters turn'…. lol. The arguments made here on why dragoon is broken rest upon the assumption that the job is being played as well as it can be. In other words, skill, or lack of it, is not the issue.

I agree with you when you say that dragoon is not complex. I don't think any of the jobs are complex. In the same way that you say 'a good dragoon knows how monsters turn' I believe, that a good monk knows his rotation so well that it is not complex to him. The same with a ninja, or a scholar, or a warrior… to a skilled player, none of the jobs are complex. how many buttons you have to press does not correlate with difficulty. However many buttons your chosen role needs you to press, as a skilled player you put the time into the character until you know it like the back of your hand.

Simply writing off missed positionals or mistakes as down to player skill is somewhat disingenuous, given the heavy presence of rng in the game mechanics. There may be instances where you simply cannot target the flank or rear; i.e. in t8 if the avatar binds you for ballistic missiles, if you need to hit flank with ht, you're not hitting flank with ht. DPS loss. Even the best players will get caught out from time to time, especially when tackling fresh, endgame content that no-one has on farm status yet. Content that you yourself have had no personal experience of, as you admitted earlier. Yet here you are, telling players that have used dragoon in t10-13 what good dragoons build their play around and how its really about skill.

So, missed positionals will happen, even to the best of us, oftentimes through no fault of our own (skill is not the issue, remember?). The question becomes, how much do these missed positionals cost me, are they recoverable; and assuming i am able to make it through without a single one, is the payoff worth it?

For a dragoon, the cost of missed positionals is high. That cost is not recoverable. And the potential payoff? it is low. They cannot, even at their best, touch the payoff of a monk or ninja, who face a much lower cost for missed positionals, and a much, much higher ceiling for flawless performance.

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Originally Posted by Seoki

Honestly at this point we should just stop feeding the troll.

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I agree since this is a complaint more so about the health of the game and less about Dragoon as an individual.

FFXIV so unhealthy guys.

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Originally Posted by GalkaBikini

FFXIV so unhealthy guys.

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Dont think internet world has ever be healthy for us at all.

Rng affects everyone. For every bind in T8 forcing a delayed HT is a mnk losing gl trapped in conflagration in t5 or loosing gl getting shriek in t7, or a missed cast because blm got targeted by a plume instead of a melee it wouldn't affect. rng quite squarely falls in my 'deal with it' category. It hurts different jobs in different ways at different times but ultimately everyone has to deal with it.

I am all for enhancing utility because drg is obviously lacking in that department. But softening the positionals doesn't do jack squat about it. All that does is dumb down drg to the point it is the EZ mode dps relative to every other job by a wide margin. There would literally be nothing to consider except the basic rotation. That doesn't fix drg because it's challenge to play was never the problem. Add some utility sure, but just removing positionals cuz "it's hard to land HT!" Is silly. That's just sugar covered QQ.

yes, well done, rng affects everyone. And rng causes mistakes, i.e. missed positionals, which skill alone cannot prevent (and its good to see that you have accepted this, despite your earlier assertions to the contrary); which is when you see the cost of the mistake, and find out whether or not its recoverable, and moreover, is the potential gain of the class worth the cost of the mistake?

the way that the dragoon rotation works, you're building up to your most powerful attack (life surged full thrust) with both b4b and heavy thrust enabled, and the -10% piercing resistance from disembowel. HT needs to be reapplied after FT, so a delay in the combo means that FT may hit without it, meaning your most powerful attack is significantly gimped. You don't get a button that corrects that. Dragoons don't have perfect balance.

And if you cannot hit impulse drive from rear, you are deprived of an entire combo. you are deprived of your highest potency move. you are deprived of your -10% piercing resistance. You are not a monk that only loses a slight amount of potency but the actual effect itself is always applied, meaning that all you have to do in order to keep your stacks is hit the boss.

Monk does have its own challenges, as does every other class. Mistakes do not necessarily prevent the maintenance of stacks though, you are able to continue your rotation with maybe a small loss of potency on that one attack; the job is far more forgiving than dragoon, after all. And there is a substantial payoff for facing those challenges; superior ST dps.

Make a mistake as a dragoon, you are punished very harshly. And if you managed to play perfectly, guess what, you still did less damage then that monk or ninja that screwed up a couple of times.


I'm also not sure if getting rid of the positional requirements would be the right way to rectify Dragoon. What I do know is that the job needs to be overhauled because as it is right now it simply does not measure up to the other melee jobs. The cost for mistakes is too high, and the reward for perfect performance is too low. add to that piss poor mdef that ensures you will be a burden on healers when those unavoidable magic aoe's flare up and pitiful utility, there is no argument that can be made for someone to opt to choose a dragoon over a ninja or a monk at end game.

And that is simply not right.

Increase HT's buff to 25% from 15%, considering that:

1. We don't get a speed buff compared to MNK's GL3 and NIN's Huton (15% attack speed)
2. GL3 increases damage by 27% and Kiss of the wasp/viper increases damage by 20%

It's a better idea than increase all the potency across the board, since MNK and NIN can be punished for not keeping up important cooldowns. HT is an important cooldown for DRG and DRG should be punished for not being able to keep it up, although the ease of keeping up the buff is relatively easier.

Second: Lower TP cost of all skills by 5. MNK and NIN are doing 60 50 50 and 70 for specials whereas we're doing 70 60 60 and 80 for specials (no that extra 100 on invigorate will never cover this difference).

If the idea for DRG is to be that slow hitting high damage per hit DPS, these would essential. We're outspeed-ed by the other 2 classes without a skill to buff our attack speed by 15%, and yet our damage potencies are not high enough to justify a higher per hit DPS. NIN's 3 hit combo is only 30 potency lesser than DRG's, what imbalance is this! And for further imbalance, NIN's 3 hit combo costs 30 TP LESS.

So we attack slower, we hit about as hard each hit, we burn out TP faster than both classes, we don't bring any utility to the table without cross classing, we might as well relegate DRG to a CLASS rather than a JOB then.

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Originally Posted by Aana

Drg isn't that Iimpossible to play nor is mnks few extra dps in a real fight that obscene.

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Mnks have FEW extra dps over DRG? Really?? Just a FEW?

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Originally Posted by Haeresis

I heared Dragoon will be fixed in patch 3.0
http://i.imgur.com/vXFWnym.jpg

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Which means that we have to suffer for another 6 months or more TT.TT

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Originally Posted by Aana

Rng affects everyone. For every bind in T8 forcing a delayed HT is a mnk losing gl trapped in conflagration in t5 or loosing gl getting shriek in t7, or a missed cast because blm got targeted by a plume instead of a melee it wouldn't affect. rng quite squarely falls in my 'deal with it' category. It hurts different jobs in different ways at different times but ultimately everyone has to deal with it.

I am all for enhancing utility because drg is obviously lacking in that department. But softening the positionals doesn't do jack squat about it. All that does is dumb down drg to the point it is the EZ mode dps relative to every other job by a wide margin. There would literally be nothing to consider except the basic rotation. That doesn't fix drg because it's challenge to play was never the problem. Add some utility sure, but just removing positionals cuz "it's hard to land HT!" Is silly. That's just sugar covered QQ.

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Well RNG does affect everyone but no it is not equally.

There are regular mistakes/mishaps that come from miscalculations or the victim of RNG, like missing a BLM/SMN cast because you had to dodge (sometimes a mistake, sometimes just has to happen), or MNK missing a positional. They can happen a few times a fight, usually not too big a deal in reality. Then there are the catastrophic mistakes/mishaps from miscalculations/RNG, like losing GL3 when you didn't have to, or losing AH3/UI3 accidentally somehow, or going OoM with SMN. These things shouldn't happen unless they're SUPPOSED to happen, like losing GL3 to a phase change. The thing is, DRG missing a positional is closer to this category than the former.

That's the problem. No one is punished so harshly for a regular mistake/situation, even a missed cast from BLM is just a missed cast, go on your way. DRG loses out on the combo/buff, takes a potency loss, and heaven help you if you are in such a mechanic that doesn't let you get to your positional for more than 5s (as we have said multiple times does happen in the new coil ... which you don't seem to care about).

Regardless, this whole positioning thing is part of the problem, not the problem. MDEF (YES this is a thing right now ... we've had our DRG die in every single turn when others would have survived while progressing, and T13 is gonna be especially punishing now that we're working on it with a DRG), lower total DPS, no utility (MNK 20% Mantra, INT debuff Dragon Kick. NIN Goad, ability to let Storm's Path stay up 100% of the time without major tank aggro/DPS loss), they're the issues. The positional thing is just icing on the cake of why they're not ideal.

So DRG's less survivable, less DPS in turns it can play optimally and way less on ones it has to miss positionals, and has no importance to the raid. The overwhelming majority thinks it needs some help. You for some reason deny this with all your first half of T10 experience in all your glory and say we're wrong because we need to L2P. Cool.

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Originally Posted by Seoki

That's not relevant.

Warriors can do amazing DPS

Because of that utility they don't get to be top tier tank.

OH WAIT.

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PLD will out DPS a WAR on single targets.

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

PLD will out DPS a WAR on single targets.

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On the condition that there is a WAR being the MT and PLD as OT in sword oath.

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Originally Posted by Firepower

WAR had 0 dmg mitigation and in the first coil of bahamut people were using PLD skills to mitigate some heavy hits to make things easier such stacks on the snake in t1,

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Hallowed Ground was being used to bypass intended mechanics, something which a WAR tank couldnt do. So, instead of removing utility of Hallowed ground to bring it down to WAR, they decided to bring WAR upto level. Without Hallowed Ground, before the WAR changes, WAR was as effective a tank as PLD.

Albeit, the changes do get a thumbs up from me XD

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Originally Posted by Ooshima

On the condition that there is a WAR being the MT and PLD as OT in sword oath.

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Tested it with WAR without defiance, and over the long haul PLD pushes ahead, equally geared. PLD does have the singularly best damage buff in game, Berserk does not compare. PLD v MRD? different game XD

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

Tested it with WAR without defiance, and over the long haul PLD pushes ahead, equally geared. PLD does have the singularly best damage buff in game, Berserk does not compare. PLD v MRD? different game XD

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From my limited testing: PLD in Sword Oath with Slashing debuff applied > no Defiance WAR = Sword Oath PLD > Defiance WAR >> Shield Oath PLD

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

Well RNG does affect everyone but no it is not equally.There are regular mistakes/mishaps that come from miscalculations or the victim of RNG, like missing a BLM/SMN cast because you had to dodge (sometimes a mistake, sometimes just has to happen), or MNK missing a positional. They can happen a few times a fight, usually not too big a deal in reality. Then there are the catastrophic mistakes/mishaps from miscalculations/RNG, like losing GL3 when you didn't have to, or losing AH3/UI3 accidentally somehow, or going OoM with SMN. These things shouldn't happen unless they're SUPPOSED to happen, like losing GL3 to a phase change. The thing is, DRG missing a positional is closer to this category than the former.

That's the problem. No one is punished so harshly for a regular mistake/situation, even a missed cast from BLM is just a missed cast, go on your way. DRG loses out on the combo/buff, takes a potency loss, and heaven help you if you are in such a mechanic that doesn't let you get to your positional for more than 5s (as we have said multiple times does happen in the new coil ... which you don't seem to care about).

Regardless, this whole positioning thing is part of the problem, not the problem. MDEF (YES this is a thing right now ... we've had our DRG die in every single turn when others would have survived while progressing, and T13 is gonna be especially punishing now that we're working on it with a DRG), lower total DPS, no utility (MNK 20% Mantra, INT debuff Dragon Kick. NIN Goad, ability to let Storm's Path stay up 100% of the time without major tank aggro/DPS loss), they're the issues. The positional thing is just icing on the cake of why they're not ideal.

So DRG's less survivable, less DPS in turns it can play optimally and way less on ones it has to miss positionals, and has no importance to the raid. The overwhelming majority thinks it needs some help. You for some reason deny this with all your first half of T10 experience in all your glory and say we're wrong because we need to L2P. Cool.

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This, so much this. Took everything i wanted to say right out of my mouth and said it in a way that actually makes sense. My thanks, good sir.

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Originally Posted by beowulf81

yes, well done, rng affects everyone. And rng causes mistakes, i.e. missed positionals, which skill alone cannot prevent (and its good to see that you have accepted this, despite your earlier assertions to the contrary); which is when you see the cost of the mistake, and find out whether or not its recoverable, and moreover, is the potential gain of the class worth the cost of the mistake?

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1st off, no. Being bound in T8 preventing HT does not force a 'mistake'. Getting gaoled and loosing GL is not a 'mistake'. Mistake implies human error. All my RNG examples are not human errors and are esentially unavoidable. If you could compensate for them then they would fall under 'l2p' instead of RNG 'deal with it'.

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Originally Posted by beowulf81

And if you cannot hit impulse drive from rear, you are deprived of an entire combo. you are deprived of your highest potency move. you are deprived of your -10% piercing resistance.

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You are not 'deprived' of a combo. Missing 1 GCD of ID does not somehow equate to a loss of the 900 pot combo as it is commonly suggested in this thread. Whiffing a move is only a DELAY of 2.5sec, not some mass destruction of a 900 pot 3 move combo. It is only the opportunity cost of your normal rotation avg pot per GCD - the 100 pot of a failed ID or HT. It is far less dramatic than many believe. I forget the #s exactly off the top of my head but avg pot/gcd for drg is like 260ish iirc. So a whiffed ID or HT is really 260-100. 160 pot loss per whiff give or take and of course other factors. If you whiff during B4B its worse than whiffing with no buffs etc. Nuances aside you have a chance to flub under 200 pot 5x a minute. Now were falling into mnk and blm territory. Funny how that works. It really is in the same ballpark of other jobs for potential losses. 5x/min chance to loose <200 pot. But you wont mis ALL of them unless youre horrible. so in most scenarios were talking a few hundred total pot a min really at risk here. Every GCD miss positioned on mnk is 40-50 pot lost. If a mnk misses 3-4x a min thats the same as drg missing 1/5 (1 per minute). Thats pretty darn reasonable in my book as far as parody goes.

The VAST majority of instances you whiff can be avoided and thus chalked up to human error. The few remaining like bound in T8 for a few seconds is just dealing with fight mechanics. People are gonna do less DPS in real fights than on dummies because of things like that. Its completely normal and acceptable to take a slight hit because you got honey in T6, shriek in t7, kiting renauds, whatever. 'Deal with it' category.

My problem is that this "i whiffed ID now the world ends!" idea is that it is mathematically not very dramatic. 1 GCD opportunity cost. <200 pot because it only DELAYS your combo, not destroys it. This would be a true argument if there were raid bosses that had no rear like demon wall. THAT is problem. Not <200 pot for making (generally human errors) and once in a blue moon a bad RNG issue. It is, bluntly, not as big of a factor as people make it out to be and the math agrees with me. Also, people need to stop thinking mnks just pop a 3 min CD everytime they mess up. It is usually saved and pre-planned for specific phases to ramp up like after heavensfall to get up to speed for the Ghost>47% push on nael and such. Not because "whoops i dun did messed up my rotation! better PB!".

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Originally Posted by beowulf81

I'm also not sure if getting rid of the positional requirements would be the right way to rectify Dragoon. What I do know is that the job needs to be overhauled because as it is right now it simply does not measure up to the other melee jobs. The cost for mistakes is too high, and the reward for perfect performance is too low. add to that piss poor mdef that ensures you will be a burden on healers when those unavoidable magic aoe's flare up and pitiful utility, there is no argument that can be made for someone to opt to choose a dragoon over a ninja or a monk at end game.

And that is simply not right.

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And, as i said i partially agree with this (not the 'mistakes cost is to high part'). The general complaint is drg doesnt compete in ST damage and/or doesnt bring enough party benefits. If that is in fact the basis of everyone complaint then reducing positionals doesnt fix ANY of that because it is: A) not as big of a DPS hit as people think it is B)Doesnt raise their overall damage, and C) Doesnt add any utility

Positionals are not the problem OR the solution which means its just "i want drg to be easier, not better" and thats just dumb.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

What people are getting at is that while monks have a lot more positional, the only thing they suffer from is having a lowered potency on that hit. Dragoons would be unable to continue their combo or not gain an additional bonus if they miss theirs; They can't disembowel and they don't get heavy thrust's damage buff.

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And because of this DRG have only on the start combo skill a position requirement and not on every skill of the combo
Missed the position? Use the start skill a second time before doing the next skill in the combo

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Originally Posted by Aana

More words

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Again, you are not understanding the actual issue. Also, yes. Missing Impulse Drive is a big deal. That is roughly nine seconds of DPS wasted. Missing Heavy Thrust is about six seconds wasted. I also checked your profile and you are not experienced enough to even understand the problems of Dragoon. You do not have Marauder to 26 and Pugilist to 42, so your crossclass skills aren't even proper. Don't care that you have the HA choker and earrings(not to mention the earrings are subpar on Dragoon), your entire posts here has shown you aren't getting it.

-Sincerely, A monk.

Edit: I take that back, you need those earrings as your Determination stat is far too low for you to be doing any significant damage.
Edit 2: Your skillspeed stat is far too high as well, you must be doing 0 DPS.

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

Tested it with WAR without defiance, and over the long haul PLD pushes ahead, equally geared. PLD does have the singularly best damage buff in game, Berserk does not compare. PLD v MRD? different game XD

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Something's wrong with your test then. Dozens of people have tested with numbers to prove that the only way PLD in Sword Oath can out DPS a WAR is when it has the slashing debuff given by the WAR. Else a lone PLD win Sword Oath slashing the dummy will not surpass the lone WAR slashing on a dummy.

Anyways this thread is about DRG, lets not derail.

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Originally Posted by Aana

...

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You mean everyone should just ignore drg? right? Or you mean revamp the whole drg with no idea?
Tell us how to fix it. Serious just tell us and guide us!

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Originally Posted by Aana

"it's hard to land HT!" Is silly. That's just sugar covered QQ.

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Once again you do not raid. You do not understand why it needs to be reworked. You do not understand the problem at all, and thats ok, we have all came to realize that you are about as dumb as a box of rocks. What about turn 11 last phase when you are tethered and cant flank / rear? Now you dont have your damage buff or piercing buff. But guess what, monks and nins still rolling on doing their shit out dpsing you, oh ya not only are they out dpsing but bringing some utility to the raid and not dying cause their mdef sucks. Lets not forget dragoon uses way more tp than both so pretty much defeating the purpose of the buff they offer bard cause now they are singing for days, hell just bring a nin and let him goad the bard and give him trick 1 time per min. Just gtfo out bro with your trolls.

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Originally Posted by Fayto

Again, you are not understanding the actual issue. Also, yes. Missing Impulse Drive is a big deal. That is roughly nine seconds of DPS wasted. Missing Heavy Thrust is about six seconds wasted. I also checked your profile and you are not experienced enough to even understand the problems of Dragoon. You do not have Marauder to 26 and Pugilist to 42, so your crossclass skills aren't even proper. Don't care that you have the HA choker and earrings(not to mention the earrings are subpar on Dragoon), your entire posts here has shown you aren't getting it.

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Originally Posted by Hakmatic

Once again you do not raid.

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I dont know what your smoking. Im standing in town on my 50 maurader right now. This is also my alt char I leveled exclusively to get more time and gear playing drg on just so i could play it more frequently, so you can take your assumptions about me, and my experience and stuff it. I have more than enough raid experience to 'qualify' to have an opinion wheather you believe me or not. How many HA weapons do I need to qualify exactly? I have a few. Besides, its irrelivant since you havent refuted the statements so ill spell them out even more plainly.

And explain how loosing <200 pot is equivalent to 9 seconds of DPS? Im serious. Do the math for me and show your work because its simply not true.

What exactly is 'the actual issue' im missing? All i see here is "Drg doesnt do enough single target damage and/or doesnt have enough utility". Landing 1 more HT doesnt do squat about utility and until you can prove with actual #s instead of statements that the occasional missed HT or ID is somehow preventing Drg from keeping up with mnk then as far as im concerned, you are the one who isnt understanding the issue.

Explain to me how the proposed positioning easing in any way buffs party utility, or prove, mathematically that positional easing is a dramatic gain in DPS enough to 'fix' the ST DPS. Or are those not in fact the gripes with drg? What dont i get. Enlighten me, or just be the 20th person to blankly state yet again that i 'dont get it' without being able to articulate what 'it' is.

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Originally Posted by Aana

I dont know what your smoking. Im standing in town on my 50 maurader right now. This is also my alt char I leveled

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I so haven't heard that one before. I know you're lying. Also, it is worth 9 seconds of DPS lost because when you miss the skill, you have to start over from the beginning. It takes 2.5 seconds to use an ability without skill speed reduction. The first skill missed is 2.5 seconds plus another 2.5 seconds to reuse. You then continue to add from there. This is simple math dude. The last bit of your post was already answered multiple times, reread them.

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Originally Posted by Fayto

I so haven't heard that one before. I know you're lying. Also, it is worth 9 seconds of DPS lost because when you miss the skill, you have to start over from the beginning. It takes 2.5 seconds to use an ability without skill speed reduction. The first skill missed is 2.5 seconds plus another 2.5 seconds to reuse. You then continue to add from there. This is simple math dude. The last bit of your post was already answered multiple times, reread them.

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Sorry, gotta apologize for my War. I got my nexus and gave my HA axe to my retainer, and shes on a venture right now, but I assume claws and cleavers should be proof enough. Take my word on the axe.
http://i.imgur.com/x5wPCTG.pngRawr Str jerbs!
http://i.imgur.com/aI6WspX.pngNot 1 but TWO 50 wars! Man how did i not have mercy stroke after leveling 50 war on 2 chars....thats amazing.
http://i.imgur.com/j29Iqj3.pngDex jerbs seem cool!

Excuse me sir, may i now have an opinion on endgame activities? Or do i need to post a video of my FCOB raid i went on all of 5 hours ago too? Can we talk about drg or do i need to provide a resume with proper credentials so you can stop trying to discredit me instead of talk facts and math.

As for your 'numbers' lets see how a fight generally goes.

Engage Mob!!! RAWR!
0 Seconds: Yay my 1st GCD! HT GOOOO!.....crap....i missed. UGGGGH!
2.5 Seconds: HT ROUND TWO! HOOOOOOO! Yay i hit it!!!!

Net lost time from whiffed GCD: 2.5 seconds. Man my DPS just TANKED! UGH.

1 whiffed GCD means you loose the time it takes to do 1 GCD. How long is a GCD again? Is it 6 seconds? 9 Seconds? /checks tool tip. Nope still only 2.5 seconds. You make the common mistake of adding the time before and after an action. The time before an action is actually tied to the previous one. Thus having an action at zero seconds when you engage otherwise we would be forced to engage>wait 2.5>then do 1st GCD> wait 2.5 then do second. You are creating an extra 2.5 that doesnt exist. The time starts after the action so you dont get to double dip the previous 2.5 and post action 2.5. 1 action is 2.5, never 5.

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Originally Posted by Aana

Dumb words

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No, it is not 2.5. If you miss Impulse Drive, you have to redo the entire skill. That right there is already 6 seconds of lost DPS because you have to recast Impulse Drive. The second Impulse Drive could have been time spent casting Disembowel, so after casting Impulse Drive a second time you then have to cast Disembowel which could be time spent casting Chaos thrust. That right there is 9 seconds of lost DPS because you missed the first part of the combo because you have to recast. You are only counting the time of one Impulse Drive but you did not waste one Impulse Drive, you wasted an entire Chaos Thrust combo.

I know I am using the base recast time and rounding up which is the incorrect way to do it since skillspeed reduces the time, but seeing as how skillspeed sucks for Dragoon I decided to remove it from the equation all together. Not only do you not understand how Dragoon works, you seem to not understand how DPS works either.

Edit: Already discredited yourself with your posts, btw. Also your "alt" gear is bad and you should feel bad.
Edit 2: Dragoon is not Monk, if I mess up Bootshine, I only waste the DPS of that attack. If I mess up on Dragoon, I ruin the entire combo.

It'd be nice if Square-enix senpai noticed us. My Dragoon is too baka and burns too easily in the sun :(. Gomenasai.

But anyway, they need to improve the damage buff of Heavy Thrust, and the combo and additional effect requirements from our positionals then we'll be fine. If you dont get your flank heavy thrust then you lose the potency bonus but still gain the buff. If you dont get the rear hit on impulse you don't get the potency bonus but can still disembowel.

It's enough of a reason to do your positionals and stops us getting crippled any time that the tank side steps slightly.

Oh, some Magic Def would be nice too.

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Originally Posted by Fayto

No, it is not 2.5. If you miss Impulse Drive, you have to redo the entire skill. That right there is already 6 seconds of lost DPS because you have to recast Impulse Drive. The second Impulse Drive could have been time spent casting Disembowel, so after casting Impulse Drive a second time you then have to cast Disembowel which could be time spent casting Chaos thrust. That right there is 9 seconds of lost DPS because you missed the first part of the combo because you have to recast. You are only counting the time of one Impulse Drive but you did not waste one Impulse Drive, you wasted an entire Chaos Thrust combo.

I know I am using the base recast time and rounding up which is the incorrect way to do it since skillspeed reduces the time, but seeing as how skillspeed sucks for Dragoon I decided to remove it from the equation all together. Not only do you not understand how Dragoon works, you seem to not understand how DPS works either.

Edit: Already discredited yourself with your moronic posts, btw. Also your "alt" gear is bad and you should feel bad.

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You dont have to like my gear. Its an alt. My main is boss enough.

You conflate an under 2.5 second skill into a 3 and turn that into 9 and IM bad at math?
0 Seconds: This is the moment you lance hits a monster and you hit the button to do a skill. Agreed? Still with me? OK. So you hit a button at 0 seconds. 1st skill STARTS at 0 seconds? With me?
2.5 seconds: That skill you hit at 0 seconds GCD is now over. Now you can hit another button. Following? 2.5 sec is the moment you hit button #2.
5 seconds: GCD no longer grayed out. Now you can hit Button #3 because the PREVIOUS GCD from #2 is now over allowing you to hit #3.
7.5 seconds: So on and so forth

If you miss one skill you redo 1 skill. EG:
Hit.
0sec HT, 2.5sec TT, 5sec VT, 7.5sec True.

Whiff
0sec HT(Whiff), 2.5sec HT, 5sec TT, 7.5sec VT, 10sec True.

You get DELAYED by 2.5 sec. Everything just gets pushed back the span of a single 2.5 sec. Thats it. If you miss a single ID, then your Dis and CT are both applied: 2.5 seconds later than if you didnt whiff. According to your 9 second rule, im about to finish the 3rd hit of a combo at 10 seconds (see above)after a whiff, and you are still 'redoing' your 1st HT or ID. It doesnt work that way.

Dunno if you guys ever played starcraft or SC2 but this is the same flawed logic crops up with people talking about zerg buliding prices. Drone costs 50, hatch costs 300, replacement drone costs 50=450. You dont count 2 drones to make 1 building. its only 400.

Similarly, you dont count 2 GCD timers to do 1 GCD. 1GCD=/=2GCDs. 1GCD=1GCD. 1GCD=2.5sec(or less with SS obviously)

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Originally Posted by Aana

Dunno if you guys ever played starcraft or SC2 but this is the same flawed logic crops up with people talking about zerg buliding prices. Drone costs 50, hatch costs 300, replacement drone costs 50=450. You dont count 2 drones to make 1 building. its only 400.

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...what. People actually math like that? Somehow 1 drone = 2 drones? This is why people just play Protoss and cannon rush.

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Originally Posted by Exstal

...what. People actually math like that? Somehow 1 drone = 2 drones? This is why people just play Protoss and cannon rush.

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Sadly people do. There have been giant threads fighting over this since the 90s and still to this day with starcraft 2. And now were getting the same thing in 14. Drones, GCDs, apparently things just spontaniously multiply. Maybe they are just protoss players. After all 1 probe=infinite cannons. Doesnt all math work that way?

Murica edumacation. We iz gewd at maf.

Aana…. you're snipping select lines from posts and responding to them when the actual body of text from that very same post will actually answer your questions, or should do at least. Why? Do you have difficulty reading? Or are you trolling?

Honest question, i do not want to waste my time addressing a troll.

Such as this:

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Originally Posted by Hakmatic

Once again you do not raid.You do not understand why it needs to be reworked. You do not understand the problem at all, and thats ok, we have all came to realize that you are about as dumb as a box of rocks. What about turn 11 last phase when you are tethered and cant flank / rear? Now you dont have your damage buff or piercing buff. But guess what, monks and nins still rolling on doing their shit out dpsing you, oh ya not only are they out dpsing but bringing some utility to the raid and not dying cause their mdef sucks. Lets not forget dragoon uses way more tp than both so pretty much defeating the purpose of the buff they offer bard cause now they are singing for days, hell just bring a nin and let him goad the bard and give him trick 1 time per min. Just gtfo out bro with your trolls.

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What do you quote and respond to in your post?

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Originally Posted by Hakmatic

Once again you do not raid.

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which strikes me as somewhat disingenuous.

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Originally Posted by Aana

You conflate an under 2.5 second skill into a 3 and turn that into 9 and IM bad at math?

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Umm... this just shows how bad you are or your rotation is. One missed HT or ID costs a lot. It is just not apply it later. Type of thing. Because an optimal DRG rotations is highly fixed (esp if comparing to other melee classes) since there are quite a lot of timers that need to be managed:
HT, DIS, CHAOS, PHENO, BFB, IR, LS, PS (did i forget any?) so that's 8 timers that need to be aligned to get the max out of the class. Meaning that missing one will result in other timers falling off in the wrong time which results in either replying them in wrong times where you could do some other deeps moves (and in this case our deeps move that makes sense is 3 combo T which takes 7.5 seconds in total to make sense in using it so it also needs to be aligned since PHENO, HT, CHAOS combo will ruin it) or forgetting about them (which would cause you to loose waay more deeps). So if you are saying that you can just try again, means that you are doing that and loosing that deeps and not even realizing it.

I'm not saying DRG is terrible class. I still like to play it and i don't even mind missing stuff once in a while and loosing some deeps on it because as you said - eventually you can learn it some fights how to mitigate that and I don't mind the punishment since as you said everyone has that (let's not go into how mild or severe it is). The bottom line is that MNK and NIN do more deeps ( i think we can all agree to this) and bring more utility (and this).

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Originally Posted by xnonamex

HT, DIS, CHAOS, PHENO, BFB, IR, LS, PS (did i forget any?) so that's 8 timers that need to be aligned to get the max out of the class.[...]So if you are saying that you can just try again, means that you are doing that and loosing that deeps and not even realizing it.

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Basically, this is probably one of the worst parts about it. A monk's missed positional is exactly that - a missed positional, and an immediate short-term, minor potency loss. However, a Dragon's miss will delay an entire cycle. At the start of the fight, as Aana suggested, it's not that major - if you miss your first Heavy Thrust, well, go ahead and do it again - it's a very minor loss at that point. ]


However, once Dragoon is in its stride, it needs to maintain perfection of a rotation or else skills will fall off. Ever have a Heavy Thrust run out before using your Full Thrust / Blood for Blooded / Life Surged? It sucks, but unfortunately, you miscalculated the time you had left on Heavy Thrust because the boss had a jump (T9 dalamud) / you missed your heavy thrust 1-2 times (Boss is spinning like a top) / you had to dodge. This doesn't even touch on, as he said, DoT management.

The only real thing I found wierd is the mention of Blood for Blood. Is there really an optimal time to use it mid-rotation? I've never thought about it before, but of all the Dragoon GCD skills, you basically can run Blood for Blood up for 80% of them (At least with my cycle, I tend to.)... So as long as you don't pop it at a Heavy Thrust that's going to lead into an Impulse Drive, it should be up for all your other bread and butter skills.