The withdrawl penalty is a good thing. I've read the entire thread, now, and every circumstance put forward as to why it is bad - EVERY CIRCUMSTANCE - is a situation where earning the penalty is pretty darned easy to avoid.
Party keeps withdrawing? Use Ready Check before signing up for the duty. If you're signing up for something as a partial party, chances are good that they are all people that you know and trust. The Ready Check gives them a chance to let you know that they haven't gone afk. If you're signing up as a complete party, you don't need to worry:
So, trolls have no foothold at all. They can't join Party Finder, and nuke some poor, unsuspecting party with multiple withdrawls to inflict penalty on them, because a party finder party will be a full party before it enters, if the organizers have a lick of sense. To be trolled, you need to have the hilariously bad sense to enter duty finder with a partial party composed of strangers - and, after doing so, try again twice after they troll you the first time. It's safe to say that these are pretty fringe situations we're talking about, here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Camate
As for incurring a penalty for unavoidable issues (in bathroom when commence appears, in the middle of a long and risky craft, engaged with an enemy and can't escape and change in time, etc), that is why we have three strikes. If you fail twice, take a little care before signing up a third time. If you're on your last strike, DON'T start that risky craft, DON'T enter a FATE that you won't be able to leave in time, use the bathroom FIRST before signing up, and so on.
Is this the best solution SE could have come up with? Perhaps, perhaps not. They certainly should have started by removing all in-progress indicators from the commence window (it was idiotic to include those in the first place), but this solution isn't bad by any means.
Locked out of the Duty Finder.
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11-03-2014, 11:08 PMLineageRazor
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11-03-2014, 11:10 PMTupsiIndeed people have needs - Yet people who think this didn't fix the problem are also being a bit on the not sane side. Despite what inside ST is like now, it's nice actually being able to get inside of content without sitting and waiting for the fishers and trolls to finish. So it's not defending, I just know in the grand scheme of things it's done far more good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rjain
It's funny - People who somehow always miss the queue are now coming out of the woodwork yet didn't complain to SE to extend the Commence timer during the last year...this is kind of why many people get skeptical about the "oh I had to take a piss all 3 times!" -
11-03-2014, 11:15 PMRjainI love the concept of the system. When it was announced it was one of the things I praised the most. But it is broken and poorly implemented. Reduce the penalty tally from 24 hours to 6 or 8 hours (6 hours is by far more than enough to deal with people who are maliciously withdrawing). Also, penalizing only the players who did not commence the duty, not the rest of the party. Reading some of the posts in this thread defending what's going on and making victims of the system seem like idiots is mindblowing. I can't wait to see these people whine to the high heavens when this stuff happens to them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tupsi
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11-03-2014, 11:22 PMMadoka
for anyone crying about a whole party getting locked out, it simply does not happen. Yesterday I had more than 6 cases where someone within a full 8 party alliance clicked withdraw for either various coil turns or shiva. I should have been locked out for 30 minutes each time after the last two going by what people are saying but it did not happen.
It will happen for ST/CT but that's because you are merely 8/24. So stop making shit up -
11-03-2014, 11:31 PMRjainRead: "partial party". People queuing with 1 or 2 friends for things like expert roulette or trials. In my case it was helping people level their rogue, doing expert roulette, or doing my Hydra trial for NIN relic. Waited in queue for 20 mins with a friend, he had to go get a drink of water or something, came back and I was hit with an additional 30 minute penalty on top of a penalty I had previously for people not accepting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Madoka
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11-03-2014, 11:37 PMwinxbloom61this dosnt hurt the people whos trolling if someone is really trolling they dont care about the penality they will just find another way to troll like draging bosses to early and so forth al this does is HURT INNOCENT PEOPLE mainly dps who hav e life outside of a game and does other things while dealing with are 2 hour + ques the only people this dosnt hurt is trolls/tanks and healersQuote:
Originally Posted by Tupsi
im sorry but se and people who think this is hurting the ones who are trolling arent to smart trolls will troll some times in new worse ways YOU CAN NOT STOP PEOPLE FROM TROLLING ITS IMPOSSIBLE A TROLL WILL ALWAYS TROLL IN GAME ADDING SYSTEMS TO KEEP TROLLS FROM TROLLING. YOU CANT REALLY EVER STOP PEOPLE FROM TROLLING WITH ANY SYSTEM -
11-03-2014, 11:41 PMLittleArrowThis may have been a positive, but it wasn't the only way to achieve this goal. I don't understand why our society is so quick to punish people instead of implementing people friendly systems. We have some pretty good studies out there that shows how to push people into good behavior without using a punish / shaming system. A good suggestion for in game that I've seen so far has been to allow players to only que up in progress. There are better ways to achieve these goals without supporting a punishing system.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tupsi
Not trying to completely drag this system through the dirt. It's just interesting to me how I've noticed people in the MMO community are more likely to attack / punish their fellow players than look for a win-win alternative. -
11-03-2014, 11:45 PMKaze3434allowing people to queue in progress only is a terrible idea. all healers and tanks would do is just that.Quote:
Originally Posted by LittleArrow
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11-03-2014, 11:49 PMLittleArrowAnd those players would have long ques since in progress parties aren't that common. This may not be the most well thought out idea, but it's a start. My point is why don't we offer systems that don't punish players but balance gameplay?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaze3434
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11-03-2014, 11:50 PMMeiUshu
yesterday I queued for Amdapor Keep normal mode, it withdrew 4x during the process, that means someone was not hitting the *ready* button once it popped.
This locking is totally nonsense, it doesnt prevent the many comes and goes of the DF, it doesnt shorten it either, not that I noticed, it doesnt force anyone to do anything. Lets say this, group of 4, A, B, C, D.
A withdraw/doesnt h it enter, is replaced by E, since you are queued again, right ?, it lits up again
B withdraw/doesnt hit enter, is replaced by F,
C withdraw/doesnt hit enter, is replaced ny G
see my point ? technically it could never end seen the number of people that play the game crossworlds right ?
this function prevents NOTHING it is just to satisfy the masses that complained over something that wasnt worth complaining about.
Now you complain about the group lock out because one member didnt press ready, well guess what is logical, yep, why ? simple a GROUP registering is considered as 1 person, news to you ? let me repeat, when the leader register he register for the entire group as 1 person for the system, therefore if one doesnt confirm the whole group is concerned and I guess that, by bad luck, one of you had already used 2 tries and there you go. or, worse, even since the group had what ? 3 people ? it counted for 3 attemps since the Leader or whoever withdrew, withdrew FOR ALL OF YOU....is this right? no...but in a way you all wanted this, so now, I guess you need to live with it.
As I said, is far more annoying to have someone leave a group once entered or in the mid of it, then people not confirming or withdrawing BEFORE entering.
You wanted it, you got it....no point in complaining now !
Mei -
11-04-2014, 12:07 AMMercuryD
The issue I have with this system is, as a PS3 player, if I tele from, say, E La Noscea to Mor Dhona, if df pops either before the port is finished or mid-port I will likely be forced to withdraw, thereby penalizing me. So, should I just sit in one zone whenever I use DF? How is that fair?
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11-04-2014, 12:32 AMMilesSaintboroguhAll caps really drives your point across, doesn't it? Also, no one said the system was to stop trolls. It is to cut back on people that want to troll (you really think the average troll is willing to risk being put in time out every 30 minutes?) People want to be able to play content and queue up in a reasonable timeframe without some bored/clueless person constantly withdrawing and holding others back. Before the patch, I never bothered clicking commence because I knew someone would withdraw anyway and most of the time, I was right. Nowadays, I get far fewer withdraws one is saying the new system stops trolling, but helps cut back on it. Noticed how I said trolling was cut back and not stopped?Quote:
Originally Posted by winxbloom61
Everyone keeps saying how they "got a life" outside the game they need to tend to have yet another "emergency" to deal with. You got business outside the game? You take care of that first. People using the queues as a time to do other things, in game or off game, was a huge red flag that showed that something was terribly wrong; no one should be forced to find other things to do and wait a long time just to do a 5 to 40 minute run of content.
I am not paying a subscription to sit around praying that I can get into a duty. -
11-04-2014, 01:29 AMKaze3434because caps lock is cool. anyway, the lock out has been working wonders. going into something with a full premade light or full party doesnt get you a strike.Quote:
Originally Posted by winxbloom61
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11-04-2014, 04:20 AMwinxbloom61
how about you stupid healer and tanks stop complain it isnt fine for dps who dont have instant ques u got what 5mins 10 maybe 15 max seriosely SHUT THE HELL UP u dont know if its fine until you have to deal with ques no shorter than 50mins
fact is we dps already being punished for playing a job we enjoy were punished by having to wait over a hour for a single dungon and most of the time the tanks or healers troll with in the dungon
we dont need another punishment for doing something while we wait and cant hit enter on time or we get up for a min out of a hour que seriosely -
11-04-2014, 05:19 AMKaze3434please, punctuation and spelling. it helps people understand you. anyway, not all of the people saying the lock out is a good thing play healers or tanks. if anything, from the thread and the other one, most tanks and healers hate it.Quote:
Originally Posted by winxbloom61
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11-04-2014, 05:24 AMTupsi-Everyone- had to deal with people withdraw spamming in CT/ST/FL and sometimes Roulettes. Maybe you're better off blaming the people who brought this upon the community?Quote:
Originally Posted by winxbloom61
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11-04-2014, 06:04 AMSinisterIsBack
So im not sure if this is a bug or what but I just got penalized for 30minutes for clicking withdrawl ONCE. (friend wanted to cap poetics with me) It says I am penalized for abandoning a duty....but I never set foot in the dungeon
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11-04-2014, 06:08 AMAsieridHow about you roll a tank rather then sit here and complain about playing a role 85% of the population plays.Quote:
Originally Posted by winxbloom61
Perks about being a tank: That's not my problem. Ready check. Use it. -
11-04-2014, 07:26 AMwinxbloom61Sure as soon as Se creates a tank that is worth playing the two we have are completely crappy or holy we should be able to play any job we want without having to care about rolesQuote:
Originally Posted by Asierid
in fact the hole story of ff shouldnt have made us do dungons all dungons should be extra for better gear and so forth aka optional
and while your at it tell them TO CREATE UNCRAPPY HEALERS that dont depend on holy magic
I play the jobs i enjoy i dont give a damn what role they are that isnt the point though
the point is this stupid bs punishment just for hitting withdraw shouldnt exist they myswell take away the withdraw button if they going to punish us using the utility when we need to such as when we are crafting or doing a leve or outside of game issues -
11-04-2014, 07:31 AMGiantbaneThe more that I think about this, the less I understand why it works like that. Right now, I can't think of ANY reason it should punish the whole group. What is the point?Quote:
Originally Posted by Camate
It's not to stop groups fishing for in progress runs because groups cannot join in progress.
It's not to stop groups from fishing for other teams in an alliance. We can form alliances now and join with them so there's no reason anyone would do this.
And it's not even to stop trolling. Even if the queue punishes individuals, a group of 3 would each get two attempts to troll the DF per member of the team. The result is a total of 6 attempts to troll. However, those individuals can already, given the current system, troll the queue by themselves 2 times each. This allows them to troll the same number of 6 attempts. So it's not helping there.
I'm at a complete loss. Why punish individuals for the mistakes of others, what purpose is this supposed to serve? -
11-04-2014, 07:41 AMOdinEon
Maybe they should do away with DF completely and have people get social party up and run a dungeon, would that make you happier, seriously, if your having trouble gathering 3 other people to run with you, maybe your not doing it right.
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11-04-2014, 09:36 AMLunaHoshinoHi, I play DPS. And guess what? I love this new feature. My queue times have gone way down because I don't have to deal with that extra 5-20 minutes of withdrawal spam on top of the queue time itself.Quote:
Originally Posted by winxbloom61
Don't queue up if you aren't paying attention and ready to hop in when it pops. Period. I often tab out to other windows to do other things (like post to this forum) and somehow I have managed to never miss a queue even when I'm not looking directly at the game. In fact, I'm queued up right now. It isn't hard. -
11-04-2014, 09:38 AMAsieridFirst MMO? DPS always have a hard time in group queues. This is common knowledge by now. The whole "I want it now" thing is kind of old.Quote:
Originally Posted by winxbloom61
And holy damn, use some punctuation for once. Kind of hard to make a decent argument when the whole thing reads like you have a mouth full of bread. -
11-04-2014, 10:11 AMpolyphonicaBecause when you are in a partial party, your party's withdrawal causes the entire queue to recalculate. That one person's cancellation was a cancellation for your entire group by proxy. The benefit of partying in a group is that you get to play with friends and often have faster queues, but the drawback is that one person's cancellation causes the whole group to cancel, and repeated failures can result in this 30-minute wait. Yes, if those players were not grouped, they could individually "troll" the same amount of times on their own, but the system has more flexibility for re-juggling that responsible person in the queue (i.e. push them down the priority list) and prioritize the ready players. Because you're grouped, though, that person's failure means that many less players are available since they can't split your party.Quote:
Originally Posted by Giantbane
In other words, the system considers your party a single queue entity, and has to juggle your group around as a whole. Hence the punishments have to be applied to the queue entity as a whole in order to reduce the likelihood of successive queue failures. -
11-04-2014, 10:33 AMGiantbaneThere is no complexity to the priorities of players in the queue. It's just a queue. The individual leaves and the individual reenters at the back of the line. The group leaves, the group reenters at the back of the line. There's no difference.Quote:
Originally Posted by polyphonica
All the people who didn't withdraw or timeout are then added back to the beginning of the line and it tries to regroup them with others at or near the front of the line. Same result. The only time it's really effected is if there are just not enough people of a particular class in the queue. And it will act the same if the group has the needed class as an individual being the single class, ie: they'll get back in easily because of the needed class.
The result is a minimal behavior in queue behavior. A person will be discouraged from withdrawing because they don't want the strike. In the same way, within a group, each individual member will be discouraged from withdrawing because they *also* don't want a strike. So no, applying the punishment to everyone is not going to be very helpful in this situation and is only going to encourage more animosity between players when somebody makes a mistake that hurts everyone else. The game does not need more of that. -
11-04-2014, 10:45 AMpolyphonicaThere's a huge difference. If one player goes to the back of the line, that's one less player. If a party goes back to the end of the line, that "times x" less players. The impacting queue wait for the party failure is on a different order of magnitude. If you're in a party of 8, it's no different from 8 withdrawals from the queue system's point of view. The system needs to find 8 replacements to accommodate the 16 ready players (and so on at smaller scales).Quote:
Originally Posted by Giantbane
But this cannot work. What's going to happen when an individual in the group gets their three strikes? It will still inevitably impact the entire party because they are queueing as a group. As long as one person is locked out, you're all locked out. So you can kick that person. Okay, but you could already kick that person after the first strike to avoid the risk of a recurrence. Again, in all this time, every queue failure is multiplied by the amount of players in your group who are not able to enter the instance because of that one person's withdrawal. So the impact from the game's point of view is the same. The issue here is not the party members, who can at least control the party they're in, but the other players in the duty finder whose entry is delayed exponentially by the one person's failure to be ready.Quote:
Originally Posted by Giantbane
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11-04-2014, 11:03 AMGiantbaneThe wait isn't any different unless it's a very small queue and there aren't enough players. At which point you, as a player clogging the queue with an over represented class, better pray that group doesn't get locked out because they're all that stands between you and other X minutes wait until the next person of needed class joins the queue.Quote:
Originally Posted by polyphonica
Otherwise 1 or 7 players isn't going to make much of a difference for a matchmaker that handles thousands of players.
No, it's just a single queue failure. All the ones who didn't withdraw get back in the beginning of the line, the group that did withdraw has to reenter at the end. It doesn't stress the system any more or less because 5 player were removed from the head of the queue as opposed to only 1.Quote:
But this cannot work. What's going to happen when an individual in the group gets their three strikes? It will still inevitably impact the entire party because they are queueing as a group. As long as one person is locked out, you're all locked out. So you can kick that person. Okay, but you could already kick that person after the first strike to avoid the risk of a recurrence. Again, in all this time, every queue failure is multiplied by the amount of players in your group who are not able to enter the instance because of that one person's withdrawal. So the impact from the game's point of view is the same. The issue here is not the party members, who can at least control the party they're in, but the other players in the duty finder whose entry is delayed exponentially by the one person's failure to be ready.
But it's nice to see you advocating more reasons for groups to kick people out. That's all this game needs. -
11-04-2014, 11:14 AMpolyphonicaI'd rather wait then have the horrible experience that is the queue commence loop. If a party of 8 gets 16 distributed chances to have individuals withdraw before they get any sort of lockout, meanwhile rising to the top all the time because of the amount of players they have, that's a bad experience for everyone else in the queue, regardless of their class.Quote:
Originally Posted by Giantbane
If it creates an overall disincentive for withdrawals throughout the playerbase, including people who are in parties, the net effect should be faster queues with less withdrawals overall. I'm sure if the data doesn't support that this is the result, they'll tweak it to get the result they're looking for.Quote:
Originally Posted by Giantbane
It's a single queue failure of <x> pre-set people. If the queue could manage every player individually, it could more efficiently manage failure, but a failure of a block has a compounding impact and increased likelihood of recurrence (as it's typically easier to use the group as a base and fill the gaps, compounding the likelihood that the repeat failures will impact more people).Quote:
Originally Posted by Giantbane
If their not being ready is going to be impacting the game at large, then yes, they should be kicked. Your being able to be in a group together is not worth everyone else in the duty finder growing frustrated with the endless looping.Quote:
Originally Posted by Giantbane
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11-04-2014, 11:36 AMGiantbaneYou're acting as if people do this on purpose to use up all their chances in one go, and any time they withdraw they jump immediately back in the queue. Five members of a group isn't any more likely to have a member withdraw than five individuals. I'd say it's actually a little less likely on a per player basis for the group, because if they withdraw, they're not only wasting the time of some random strangers in the DF, they're wasting the time of the people in their party. So there's extra incentive for the group members to click "commence" that doesn't exist with an individual.Quote:
Originally Posted by polyphonica
And because you'll be back at the head of the line, the matchmaker will probably start matching you with other people before the group queues back up again. The result is that it's probably less likely that the matchmaker will put you with the same group again, because the group it's putting together for you at the start of the line no longer has available slots to accommodate. Not to mention if the group *does* withdraw, it's probably going to take a little time to figure out and/or deal with the cause of the withdraw. Obviously it's moreso now because of the strikes involved to the whole group, but even if the penalty was applied to individuals, the group would be encouraged to double check this person was ready or risk losing that member to a lock out. This all reduces the chances you'll have to deal with the same group withdrawing again in the near future. On the other hand an individual of the needed class will take less time to sort out their individual issue (no communication between members required) and because they're queueing solo, it's easy to put them right at the head of the line.
You are far more likely to be impacted by an individual withdrawing than a group because it's more likely you'll get stuck with the same individual again.
The queue actually more efficiently handles putting new people in the queue than it does groups. Groups that aren't full already get penalized because it's harder for the matchmaker to match them with others. Individuals are easy to match and they actually get a certain level of priority because they're easy to slot into groups at the head of the line.Quote:
Originally Posted by polyphonica
Proof of this is my own experiences with DF. Certain categories at prime time have instant queues. Tanks for expert & high level dungeons for instance. I never have to wait when I play on my WAR or PLD for those categories. However, I have grouped with FC members with tank + healer + 1 dps and had to wait 5 minutes for the queue to find us a single DPS. Had I gone solo at that same period of time, my queue would be instant. So, no, groups do not get priority based on their number of members. If anything, the members they have is a hindrance because it's harder for the matchmaker to match *them* with the right number of people.
So again, because it's harder to get the group to the front of the line, even with needed players, it's much less likely that you'll get stuck with the same group again as opposed to a needed individual which is trivial for the matchmaker to stick back in the front.
Unnecessary animosity generated between players is of larger detriment to this game than the nonexistent extra effect of a group withdrawing from a queue as opposed to an individual.Quote:
Originally Posted by polyphonica
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11-04-2014, 12:28 PMpolyphonicaLike everything else in the queue system, it depends entirely on who's in the queue and what other parties are being formed at the time. It will obviously try to queue the people who have waited the longest into the first available party. You can also see that it will start "pre-forming" tentative groups while waiting for a gap. If there were a surplus of available unassigned DPS in the queue at the time, even your party of three may get an instant queue. But if there's a healer who has been waiting longer, then it may try to reserve the available DPS for a party with the next available solo tank, resulting in a delay for your party, even though all you need is one DPS (because if they take it, and then the tank shows up, the other party would have to wait longer to get its needed DPS).Quote:
Originally Posted by Giantbane
But anyway, it's clear that it's easier for the system to manage individuals than groups. But part of this configuration difficulty is why this party-based penalty for withdrawing. From a system's point of view, this still seems to me like the most equitable and fair approach, since it reinforces that if you're going to queue as a party, you should be coordinated and ready as a party. And, at the end of the day, it seems to me that the 30-minute penalty on the third strike is not so onerous or burdensome in the grand scheme of things. I suppose we may not agree. -
11-04-2014, 01:26 PMItseotle
Sitting in queue for ST. 12 withdrawls so far.
13.
Lolol all those scrubs locking themselves out. -
11-04-2014, 01:27 PMGiantbaneMy point was I believe it to be the group who gets hit by this additional complexity more than the individual. 30 minutes is kind of a long time to be forced to sit in time out when you were all ready to do something. Worse when it's someone else's fault. But I can understand if you don't see it that way.Quote:
Originally Posted by polyphonica
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11-04-2014, 01:50 PMNoxiferWell, I'd agree if it awarded each party member a single strike, instead of matching everyone to the person with the highest number of strikes. Say player A, B and C queue up. C has two strikes since before, A has one strike. After fifteen minutes, the queue pops, and B (who has no strikes since before) had just gone to the bathroom and missed the window.Quote:
Originally Posted by polyphonica
Realistically, this would then mean that A has two strikes, B has one strike and C has three strikes. By kicking C, A and B would be able to queue up again. But instead, if I've understood things right, all three are locked out and kicking C from the team changes nothing. How does that make sense? -
11-04-2014, 02:24 PMpolyphonicaYeah, if that's what happens in that particular scenario, it would make sense to revisit it because it could lead to party trolling scenario where someone with two strikes joins a party only to cancel out and doom them all to a 30-minute lockout. It's either that or at least you'd need some way to see how many "strikes" someone has (or see how many strikes the "group" has when they queue).Quote:
Originally Posted by Noxifer
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11-04-2014, 08:42 PMMeiUshuas far as you know NONE of them may be locked out.. it may just be 12, 13, 14, 15 different person each for the 1st time...what were you saying again ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Itseotle
Mei -
11-05-2014, 12:18 AMItseotlethat the system is working great or maybe you couldnt see the sarcasm :PQuote:
Originally Posted by MeiUshu
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11-05-2014, 05:15 AMHaelseMikiro
so if I'm understanding this correctly, I can create a party for say....Light farming, and then when we get 7 people in the party, I can Q and withdraw 3 times (if the DF has a person of the proper role waiting) in rapid succession and then force a 30 minute lockout on 6 other people? Not that I'd ruin my good name on my server for the sake of being a troll, but it does seem exploitable at least a couple times.
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11-05-2014, 05:22 AMNyarukoWThe penalty is too light and the 3 strikes is too lenient and they are already screwing around and withdrawing without a care.Quote:
Originally Posted by Itseotle
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11-05-2014, 05:23 AMGiantbaneOr maybe it's an inefficient and haphazard way of attempting to fix the problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by NyarukoW
Just to revisit this one point, you can't actually tell who withdrew. There's no indicator and nothing telling you who did it. So unless they're just AFK and can ready check quickly to hope to identify who was there, you're just going to have to rely upon the person admitting they did it. Sounds like a recipe for more drama.Quote:
Originally Posted by polyphonica
yay? -
11-05-2014, 07:03 AMSouljackerNo, the underlying issue hasn't been solved. SE will need to revisit this once again - I don't understand the resistance to making random queues actually random. I've never seen this issue before in another mmo - and I've certainly never seen another mmo solve their issues by implementing a penalty for withdrawing from a queue.Quote:
Originally Posted by NyarukoW
This was a lesson SE shouldn't have had to learn. WoW tried showing the amount of bosses once, the same issue happened with people fishing queues, and they quickly went back to just filtering people in randomly (as they should have). We really don't need any more toxicity in the community. We need real design solutions that aren't just blanket penalties.