BLM and SMN BUFFs info is coming out!! PATCH 2.3 Preliminary

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Originally Posted by HaroldSaxon

Honestly, get a G600 or a similar mouse if that is your issue. I hate to say it, but they shouldn't balance a class based around the lower end of players (no offence, be it due to actual skill or disabilities) because it will ruin gameplay for every other class and be broken for the players that are very good. But you are going to have similar issues with other classes that have a lot more skills to use

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So you are saying people who use gamepads suck?

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Originally Posted by Kessya

Transpose is very important for Thaumaturges below level 38. Messing with it would most likely worsen the experience for players that want to start as one, and it already feels quite sluggish until level 40. I know that doesn't factor in with endgame in any way, but it's still important, as it is a lengthy chunk of the game.

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Its something I posted about previously, however, its something that is necessary for end game balance. At least from level 34 onwards, you only need to use it at the end of your fire phase as you have fire 3, so using it per rotation isn't going to be affected. So its pre-34 you are looking at mainly.

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Originally Posted by Shadowzanon

I have quite been absent from the ff14 fourms for quite some time. I donno what to think about these blm buffs, seems just really lazy as some big issues still need to be addressed which have been pointed out many times in this thread. I am fully aware movement really is not a big issue for blm. However unlike many of you good blm peeps, im one who suffers from not being able to use aetherial manipulation well because i cannot use mouse over macros.

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I play from a PS4 and i adressed this by making a macro that try to AM me on target (if i targetted a party member) or AM me to party member 2. I place the more likely target for AM as party member 2 and go with that macro

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Originally Posted by SeraviEdalborez

Derp.

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I'm thinking about a MNK's single target sustained dps. Everything in your post is irrelevant.

Ok? A 40pot bonus to Full Thrust combo (filler) wouldn't exactly change that MNK's is superior when uninterrupted. Not mention there is no precedence for buffing the first 2 moves in the combo. It is the same for PLD, WAR, and DRG (150 -> 200 -> 260/280/330).

Don't expect anything else from patch notes in regards to class rebalancing. They generally only hold back info on the new crafting recipes and bugfixes so people don't stockpile early or abuse bugs that have gone unnoticed.

i think some of the blm hate may come from FFXI. early in the games life blm's had a vice grip on parties. sometimes you had to use weak weaponskills so the blm could magic burst. also the way aoe's worked in that game made blm dmg beastly on single tagets(aoe spells had inflated dmg because the damage was reduced by the amount of targets)

Good that they buff the potency of fire and ice spells. But I'm just wondering why they don't buff the thunder spells, as well.

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Originally Posted by Zoeila

i think some of the blm hate may come from FFXI. early in the games life blm's had a vice grip on parties. sometimes you had to use weak weaponskills so the blm could magic burst. also the way aoe's worked in that game made blm dmg beastly on single tagets(aoe spells had inflated dmg because the damage was reduced by the amount of targets)

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I highly doubt people hold grudge for that. Once people realized that black mages were more trouble than they were worth, people just stopped bringing them to leveling parties and black mages started doing black mages parties instead and everyone was happy.

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Originally Posted by SeraviEdalborez

Ok? A 40pot bonus to Full Thrust combo (filler) wouldn't exactly change that MNK's is superior when uninterrupted. Not mention there is no precedence for buffing the first 2 moves in the combo. It is the same for PLD, WAR, and DRG (150 -> 200 -> 260/280/330).
Don't expect anything else from patch notes in regards to class rebalancing. They generally only hold back info on the new crafting recipes and bugfixes so people don't stockpile early or abuse bugs that have gone unnoticed.

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Where exactly do I imply this sentiment? No matter how you look at it, DRG need a single target sustained dps buff to be put a little bit more on par with our punching bag counterpart.

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Originally Posted by Umero

Good that they buff the potency of fire and ice spells. But I'm just wondering why they don't buff the thunder spells, as well.

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Because that would be taking it too far.

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Originally Posted by Kamifubuki-Yoakesetsuri

No matter how you look at it, DRG need a single target sustained dps buff to be put a little bit more on par with our punching bag counterpart.

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You do. It's called not having to maintain Greased Lightning stacks.

"An issue wherein thaumaturges and black mages were able to cast multiple fire-based spells under the effect of Umbral Ice I or II." - Resolved Issue from the patch notes

To all the people complaining about BLM AoE, well, there you go, it got nerfed pretty bad when you don't have Convert or potions up.

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

"An issue wherein thaumaturges and black mages were able to cast multiple fire-based spells under the effect of Umbral Ice I or II." - Resolved Issue from the patch notes

To all the people complaining about BLM AoE, well, there you go, it got nerfed pretty bad when you don't have Convert or potions up.

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How that is nerfed? I don't play BLM often

You could Flare under Umbral Ice I or II and time it in such a way that after your MP went to zero, you got a tick of MP and could Fire II > Flare or just Flare again.

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

"An issue wherein thaumaturges and black mages were able to cast multiple fire-based spells under the effect of Umbral Ice I or II." - Resolved Issue from the patch notes

To all the people complaining about BLM AoE, well, there you go, it got nerfed pretty bad when you don't have Convert or potions up.

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I am interested in how they are going to fix this without it significantly affecting a BLM's normal single target rotation. The least intrusive way is to have the server precalculate everything the moment you start casting and have the effects applied the moment your cast ends. This way we'd still waste our Firestarter procs so our damage isn't buffed too much but it'll require more server resource. I can't imagine them trusting the game client enough to do anymore than they do now client sided.

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

"An issue wherein thaumaturges and black mages were able to cast multiple fire-based spells under the effect of Umbral Ice I or II." - Resolved Issue from the patch notes

To all the people complaining about BLM AoE, well, there you go, it got nerfed pretty bad when you don't have Convert or potions up.

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this is how i feel right now

http://37.media.tumblr.com/54b9ff76c...fte7o1_500.gif

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Originally Posted by Uninstall

I am interested in how they are going to fix this without it significantly affecting a BLM's normal single target rotation. The least intrusive way is to have the server precalculate everything the moment you start casting and have the effects applied the moment your cast ends. This way we'd still waste our Firestarter procs so our damage isn't buffed too much but it'll require more server resource. I can't imagine them trusting the game client enough to do anymore than they do now client sided.

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I don't see how this change is going to affect a BLM's single target rotation at all. If you are in Umbral Ice I/II at all during your single target rotation, you screwed up somewhere. This change is only completing the changes they made to BLM in 2.1, where they made Astral/Umbral III get removed on cast instead of on hit if casting a spell of the opposing element.

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

"An issue wherein thaumaturges and black mages were able to cast multiple fire-based spells under the effect of Umbral Ice I or II." - Resolved Issue from the patch notes

To all the people complaining about BLM AoE, well, there you go, it got nerfed pretty bad when you don't have Convert or potions up.

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I can't say I didn't see that coming.

RIP in peace to all BLMs who abused mana ticks for endless Flare.

HHEH.

Well, figures they'd kill off the last few tricks that BLM had... Hurray for clunky rotations!

Hope the folks who nagged about "BLM aoe is SOOO strong, they dont deserve an ST buff!"... Well, you got your wish, enjoy farming myth tomes all that much slower.

In any event, lets see... Assuming that you can now ONLY cast Flare in AF3...

Old... 260*(1.8+.9)/12 = 58.5 pot/sec, "Infinite Flare" rotation, limited by the 12s CD on Transpose.
New? Trans, Tick, F3, F2, Flare... (260+100)*1.8 = 648 AoE pot.
F3 = 3.5s, F2 = 3s, Flare = 4s, 10.5s total, Trans CD is 12s, so again we have room to wait... 648/12 = 54.

54/58.5 = 92.3%...
So we gained 10.56% ST dps, and lost 7.7% AoE dps... Meh, hell knows. Its almost 1am, and I dont remember if we'd even have the MP to do that... Think we should...
Get a tick, start F3, takes 3.5s, next tick would come w/ 0.5s left on F3, so we'd come out w/ enough mana for 2 F2's and Flare... might be better to do 2 F2s instead of 1... idk... prolly not...

Guess we'll have to see just HOW they decided to cripple the aoe rotation this time.

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

"An issue wherein thaumaturges and black mages were able to cast multiple fire-based spells under the effect of Umbral Ice I or II." - Resolved Issue from the patch notes.

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so a geared whm with cs holy spam is now that much better for aoe dps especially against a blm with convert/pot on cd.

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Originally Posted by Kenji1134

Well, figures they'd kill off the last few tricks that BLM had... Hurray for clunky rotations!

Hope the folks who nagged about "BLM aoe is SOOO strong, they dont deserve an ST buff!"... Well, you got your wish, enjoy farming myth tomes all that much slower.

In any event, lets see... Assuming that you can now ONLY cast Flare in AF3...

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I don't think that Flare can ONLY be cast under AF3. The way I read it, they got rid of the mana tick AFTER Flare had been cast. So we should still be able to do Transpose - F2 - Flare...

There just won't be the Transpose - wait - Flare - Flare... anymore.

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Originally Posted by vyaku

so a geared whm with cs holy spam is now that much better for aoe dps especially against a blm with convert/pot on cd.

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lol what? Honestly the "infinite" flare loop wasn't as strong as most thought it was, it often meant waiting for some prolonged period and didnt add up. If you got right on the money with timing and ticks and you had like 6+ targets... sure. Fire 2 + flare will still beat a whm.

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Originally Posted by Xisin

lol what? Honestly the "infinite" flare loop wasn't as strong as most thought it was, it often meant waiting for some prolonged period and didnt add up. If you got right on the money with timing and ticks and you had like 6+ targets... sure. Fire 2 + flare will still beat a whm.

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i think you decided to misunderstand what i said. i never said whm would be better aoe dps. i figuratively implied that the gap between their aoe dps and blm dps is now narrowed, which it would be with this nerf.

the only time you would ever have to potentially wait around on flare would be for your first mp tick after your first transpose. the rest of your flares from that point on would be perfectly in-line with the internal mp regen clock to where you would get your mp tick almost immediately every transpose afterwards. this makes it hands down the best dps when no cds are available when considering relatively longer windows of time where you could take advantage of riding the internal clock.

the only time fire2 rotations would win is if its a shorter length encounter and you ended up having to wait near the full amount of time before your first mp tick after your first transpose.

Ive already been in fire 2 --> flare -->convert mode for a while. I tried infinite flare, a little, but I didn't see it doing that much more dmg than fire 2 --> flare.

Is manawall the physical defense one? If that's what got nerfed...meh, lag basically renders 20 seconds almost nil if someone has to perfectly time it in the middle of a rotation rather than applying it during an umbral ice phase.

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Originally Posted by vyaku

i think you decided to misunderstand what i said. i never said whm would be better aoe dps. i figuratively implied that the gap between their aoe dps and blm dps is now narrowed, which it would be with this nerf.

the only time you would ever have to potentially wait around on flare would be for your first mp tick after your first transpose. the rest of your flares from that point on would be perfectly in-line with the internal mp regen clock to where you would get your mp tick almost immediately every transpose afterwards. this makes it hands down the best dps when no cds are available when considering relatively longer windows of time where you could take advantage of riding the internal clock.

the only time fire2 rotations would win is if its a shorter length encounter and you ended up having to wait near the full amount of time before your first mp tick after your first transpose.

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If the mob pack lives past 3 aoe flares then you have a terrible PT. This is pretty impractical... hell I can barely think of a situation (in my static) that I can get past the convert flare -> flare. This "nerf" is moot at the high end. Its the same in brayflox as well. Considering what I just said (and its true) then why would then remotely affect blms situation? Keep in mind that your other pts member produce damage also, and castinf fire 2 after the convert (with sch) is bad cause the mobs wont make it to the next flare if you do.

There are very few occasions where more than two consecutive flares are necessary (one normal cast, one convert+swiftcast). If you want to be really fancy, pop a pot for a third.

I wouldn't exactly consider stopping the infinite flare thing a 'nerf'. It's a slight inconvenience in dungeons where you make huge pulls and AoE down fast with a less-than-ideal group (DF?), though I can't think of one situation where it'd be a *real* hindrance in endgame.

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Originally Posted by Xisin

If the mob pack lives past 3 aoe flares then you have a terrible PT. This is pretty impractical... hell I can barely think of a situation (in my static) that I can get past the convert flare -> flare. This "nerf" is moot at the high end. Its the same in brayflox as well. Considering what I just said (and its true) then why would then remotely affect blms situation? Keep in mind that your other pts member produce damage also, and castinf fire 2 after the convert (with sch) is bad cause the mobs wont make it to the next flare if you do.

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i mentioned that this all was considering no cds so i'm not sure where you're getting your 3 flares from in the example you're trying to create. having no cds up is entirely practical if you're talking about brayflox and doing sr. fast runs and fast ques will never have your cds consistently ready for every pull or boss.

if you are talking about burst dps to finish off a pack post-transpose, then once you hit transpose and you are waiting on a tick of mp regardless, using that tick to hard cast a single target fire3 followed by fire2s is a much slower delivery of dps than if you would have just cast two aoe flares which would probably have been enough to finish the rest of the pack's HP off before you could even get off a second fire2 in your after-transpose rotation.

if the mobs still had enough HP left then your second fire2 and a flare could squeak by briefly with more dps but not for long as by this point the flare only rotation would already be entering another cycle while you would be getting ready to wait for a mp tick to cast another single target fire3. fire3 > fire2s > flare > transpose rotation also does not fit as effectively between mp ticks so you will generally have more downtime in your rotation the longer that it has to be sustained from waiting on mp ticks after transpose versus a flare cycle that rides the internal clock.

so yeah, this is a nerf in my book. go test your fire2 rotation with no cds against a good whm spamming cs holy under foe requiem.

you never answered the question that stands, why is the flare loop practical when you can simply fire 3, flare, convert, flare and if really necessary ether flare? the first pull in brayflox (though lolbrayflox shit doesnt matter anyway) you have RS on, if you are fast enough you get to the second row pack without cds, but either way the ice tick will slow you by at least a gcd. The next aoe pull you will have RS anyway. So there is maybe one scenario where it might be practical.

Either way I think my point still stands, in any setting that matters, you shouldn't be using that method of flare in the first place, no where in coil should you ever flare out of iceThe numbers simply don't add up. hell even on fights with three targets (situations to fire 2) you'd be hard pressed to give me math showing me its worth it. So no... this isn't a nerf to blm, the transpose flare thing was mostly impractical anyway, and in most situations where there is aoes the mob wont live past 2 flares. Besides after a certain threshhold the mobs will not live past 2 flares... RS or not.

Guys, 2 hours before server open up ....... excitement :P

Updated: Server is open up

Bio 2 reduce MP from 186 to 159 ( 27 MP lol )

seems meh for SMN

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Originally Posted by Xisin

you never answered the question that stands, why is the flare loop practical when you can simply fire 3, flare, convert, flare and if really necessary ether flare? the first pull in brayflox (though lolbrayflox shit doesnt matter anyway) you have RS on, if you are fast enough you get to the second row pack without cds, but either way the ice tick will slow you by at least a gcd. The next aoe pull you will have RS anyway. So there is maybe one scenario where it might be practical.

Either way I think my point still stands, in any setting that matters, you shouldn't be using that method of flare in the first place, no where in coil should you ever flare out of iceThe numbers simply don't add up. hell even on fights with three targets (situations to fire 2) you'd be hard pressed to give me math showing me its worth it. So no... this isn't a nerf to blm, the transpose flare thing was mostly impractical anyway, and in most situations where there is aoes the mob wont live past 2 flares. Besides after a certain threshhold the mobs will not live past 2 flares... RS or not.

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i've already answered your question even though your question and argument seems to keep changing with every reply. you also keep trying to bring in cds when this discussion is about aoe dps without cds. i've already given several legitimate examples of how this nerf affects burst aoe dps and sustained aoe dps without cds but all you keep doing is trying to change the angle of your defiance.

i don't know which bray parties you've been running in, but i never have RS up for second pull, EVER. if you're running with slow parties then yeah, you can use cds on each pull. if you're doing <4:30 runs and instant ques, you will NEVER have your cds available for each pull. what is that you're suggesting here? slow the runs/ques down so that you have cds to use?

the ice tick will slow you down too after you transpose to cast fire3 so what's your point? at least the flare cycle delivers faster burst dps while syncing itself to the internal clock so that any subsequent transposes are timed just before a tick of mp.

also, a single target fire3 is much less dps than an aoe UI1 flare which crits well over 1k each mob for me. how much dps does your single target fire3 do? flare puts up AF3 just like fire3 except its an aoe instead of single target in case you didn't know.

Minor gripe, but uh, anyone notice that its suddenly VERY difficult to get Flare to go off from a macro...
Just likes to skip it most of the time.

Another cute little "fix" to "address" BLM aoe?
Doesnt really matter I suppose... But still an anti-QoL change.

hmm what do you mean?

Nevermind, I found something of a workaround, the macro system is kinda unresponsive again.

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Originally Posted by Numenor1379

I don't think that Flare can ONLY be cast under AF3. The way I read it, they got rid of the mana tick AFTER Flare had been cast. So we should still be able to do Transpose - F2 - Flare...

There just won't be the Transpose - wait - Flare - Flare... anymore.

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Yep that's what it is.

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Originally Posted by Numenor1379

I don't think that Flare can ONLY be cast under AF3. The way I read it, they got rid of the mana tick AFTER Flare had been cast. So we should still be able to do Transpose - F2 - Flare...

There just won't be the Transpose - wait - Flare - Flare... anymore.

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The best AOE rotation will be

Transpose - Fire 3 - Fire 2 - Fire 2 - Flare - rinse and repeat

This rotation had alredy more pps for 2-3 targets. With 4 targets the infinite flare get ahead but we are talking about little numbers. Plus if you mess up infinite flare you where losing a huge dps. It's true that infinite flare progress better with more enemies, so i can see as with 10+ enemies you could be losing a noticable percentage but there are no bunch of 10+ enemies that last long enough to make that number translate in more than 1 more cast. It may be relevant for those flapping with parsers during dungeon tough

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Originally Posted by LetBloodline

The best AOE rotation will be

Transpose - Fire 3 - Fire 2 - Fire 2 - Flare - rinse and repeat

This rotation had alredy more pps for 2-3 targets. With 4 targets the infinite flare get ahead but we are talking about little numbers. Plus if you mess up infinite flare you where losing a huge dps. It's true that infinite flare progress better with more enemies, so i can see as with 10+ enemies you could be losing a noticable percentage but there are no bunch of 10+ enemies that last long enough to make that number translate in more than 1 more cast. It may be relevant for those flapping with parsers during dungeon tough

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Have you tested it post patch? Because that rotation no longer works for me.

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Originally Posted by Uninstall

Have you tested it post patch? Because that rotation no longer works for me.

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You got one mana tick less then usual?

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Originally Posted by Uninstall

Have you tested it post patch? Because that rotation no longer works for me.

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Worked fine for me when running through the new dungeons

Yes. It no longer guarantees the super late mana tick for me that occurs right as the hard casted Fire 3 ends.