Dawntrail character graphics update - opinions, requests and discussion megathread

Peace, enjoy. You won I'll leave this thread since clearly being upset isn't allowed.

... :( I'll still be hopin' that your Roegadyn returns to you safely, sooner rather than later. Please don't target one another like this, guys!

This should absolutely remain a place to continue airing grievances and criticisms on the topic at hand, and I don't believe anyone is suggesting otherwise. I also agree that we only set ourselves up for disappointment when we expect those grievances to be addressed at a publicity event. It's not unreasonable to want this to be addressed/clarified ASAP, especially when this shouldn't have been an issue to begin with, but I believe we should temper our expectations -- especially about special Live Letters like the one we just had.

That said, personally... I really don't much care what their spokespeople have to say about this either way lol. Yoshida has already demonstrated to me that he doesn't personally really understand the criticisms being raised (or he's playing dumb to publicly diminish the misstep for PR, as we've previously speculated), and I don't particularly expect that to change in future addresses. In fact, I expect to be further aggravated by more obfuscation and/or misfocus. Though I'm happy to be surprised! (Please, surprise me!)

All I want is results... And I'm happy to wait for them, on a reasonable timeline (I thought the one they suggested in the last address sounded fine), as long as we do get them.

Look, Iscah, no one expected going into the PLL that there'd be something substantial re: fixing the graphics update. But that doesn't mean we still weren't massively disappointed in it, and we're allowed to be. It's absolutely silly that you keep picking arguments when we all want the same thing!!

Look, I get that it's disheartening to see the can kicked down the road continuously, if not just plain glossed over, but with all due respect, you're the one who needs to check your emotions. You keep picking at people who are already really, truly, upset, and it's unnecessary, even if it's unintentional. Please be more mindful in the future.

(And before you go, 'but they picked at me too', you're the instigator. For one, the Hyurification comments were not confrontational/diminishing of what's happened to hyurs too, but a descriptor of races ending up looking more hyuran. You saw an argument when there was none, and then you did it again here. I'm sorry, it really takes a lot for me to be this directly confrontational, but I'm trying to get you to see our point here.)

With all due respect, let's stop protracting this particular derailment and get back to what this thread is here for. It's irrelevant and, regardless of anyone's intentions, inflammatory. If our goal is stop hurting each other's feelings, this isn't mitigating that.

I believe Iscah interjected (in both instances) in good faith, not to antagonize but to clarify. Some felt dismissed or hurt by that nonetheless, and I understand why. That's a shame, so let's stop the cycle here and now. We're all here for the same reasons.

Please and thank you.

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Originally Posted by Sui-Kune

For one, the Hyurification comments were not confrontational/diminishing of what's happened to hyurs too, but a descriptor of races ending up looking more hyuran.

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I had no intention of that even being an argument. I just think it's a mistake to portray the problem as "the races look more Hyuran" because I don't think that's the problem – and because I think phrasing it that way makes it sound like characters who are already Hyuran are therefore fine when they really aren't.

To be clear, I've been brewing thoughts on this for a while and this is not meant to be arguing back.

As I said previously, the actual problem seems to be that they are moving all characters towards one generic human face, or perhaps just did a poor job of moulding that face to match the individual face shapes, which is a problem for all character faces because it moves that character away from the character's individual (rather than racial) identity.

For some races like Roegadyn the individual and racial identities are linked because the only thing that defines Roegadyn as a race (besides their colour) is that they are humans with a particular subset of human features and moving towards the generic face moves them away from the features that define them.

For other races that's not the same problem. My Miqo'te and Au Ra haven't lost the non-human features that indicate their race, but they have lost the specific face shapes that defined them as individual people.

I just feel like it's really important to be clear on the problem, and not risk them interpreting it as "Hyurs are fine, only the other races have identity issues".

In the corresponding Japanese thread, a player retold Mr. Yoshida's words that screenshots can lead to confusion. It seems like we'll receive another black bag without an opportunity to preview its contents and have to deal with the results. At least that's what Google Translate tells me.

I'm afraid there won't be anything substantial in the next PLL too, except maybe for a brief mention: "We are working on characters; please look forward to it.".

So we'll have to endure yet another month of waiting and uncertainty.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

I had no intention of that even being an argument. I just think it's a mistake to portray the problem as "the races look more Hyuran" because I don't think that's the problem – and because I think phrasing it that way makes it sound like characters who are already Hyuran are therefore fine when they really aren't.

To be clear, I've been brewing thoughts on this for a while and this is not meant to be arguing back.

As I said previously, the actual problem seems to be that they are moving all characters towards one generic human face, or perhaps just did a poor job of moulding that face to match the individual face shapes, which is a problem for all character faces because it moves that character away from the character's individual (rather than racial) identity.

For some races like Roegadyn the individual and racial identities are linked because the only thing that defines Roegadyn as a race (besides their colour) is that they are humans with a particular subset of human features and moving towards the generic face moves them away from the features that define them.

For other races that's not the same problem. My Miqo'te and Au Ra haven't lost the non-human features that indicate their race, but they have lost the specific face shapes that defined them as individual people.

I just feel like it's really important to be clear on the problem, and not risk them interpreting it as "Hyurs are fine, only the other races have identity issues".

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Aye, I get it. I do apologize for snapping, @faiarrow got really upset because they've already been hurting so much and it hit a nerve, so I was a lot more curt than I needed to be.

That does make sense what you're saying, and I do want you to understand as well what we meant by 'hyurification', and how we genuinely didn't intend for it to sound like hyurs didn't get major issues as well. That generic face however is, for all intents and purposes, meant to be human or something human-adjacent (like hyur, even if the result is hyur also got major issues), so would it be alright to then settle on 'humanification' for this phenomenon? Or something using the word 'generic', since like you said, miqo'te and au ra didn't so much lose the non-human features that set them apart but rather their face types in general. Would that be sufficient to clear the air so to speak, and avoid more unintentional arguing?

You probably want the word homogenization, “the process of making things uniform or similar”. This has been a word I feel unfortunately describes a lot of recent design philosophy in ffxiv.

I certainly wasn't expecting any considerable mention about the graphical update... or the ddos, or the eyestrain, or job balance, etc etc, since this was at a game show and it would be an incredibly bad look for them to say "we really effed up"... but I do think it would have been nice to have a slide mentioning that it will be covered in the next PLL at the end so we could have the translation right there, rather than hearing "graphical update" in amongst a sentence the vast majority of the English playerbase wouldn't understand and be left wondering what exactly was said until someone translated it for us... Since they already have an English translation for the points from all the previous slides, that's not too much to ask, right?

And FWIW, I don't think the phrase "hyurification" implies there's nothing wrong with the hyur faces - it simply implies the somewhat less human-looking faces are being moved towards this one generic human looking face just like you said. Since it appears Hyurs were the initial faces modelled and all other races were morphed from them, the rounding of the Roegadyn nose and the erasure of the strong brow are likely down to it being parented from this one Hyur model. There's other issues with the faces too which aren't linked to the morphing (like the lip normals being misaligned) so 'hyurificiation' (or 'humanification' or homogenisation, if you will) is just a way of classifying the issues that come from being morphed from the Hyur model, rather than all of the issues as a whole.

Since I don't know the history with the "hyurification," was the process of basing all the meshes off of a Hyur base mesh something that was done from the very beginning in 2.0, or was this something done with the graphic updates for Dawntrail? If it's recent, I worry that this might prevent them from doing larger changes if it's not compatible with that mesh conversion.

It also sounds like this might continue for a few more patches... for folks that don't have easy access to translation, the link from the earlier page was YoshiP saying this during the liveletter:

Final Fantasy XIV "83rd FFXIV Producer Letter LIVE"
(1:31:34-1:32:16)

"Well, we've been receiving a lot of detailed graphics updates from all over the world, and we're going to be making adjustments to them, especially to the characters, as I mentioned in the text the other day.

Of course, there are some things that can't be made in 7.1 alone, so we're going to let you know that these items have been added to 7.2 and we'll be working on them properly, so please check that out too.

However, it's all very nuanced, so if we just show you screenshots of what's going to happen, you'll end up noticing whether it's right or wrong, so we'll be delivering patches with thorough adjustments, so we hope you'll check them out and give us your feedback."

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Originally Posted by Gaddes

Since I don't know the history with the "hyurification," was the process of basing all the meshes off of a Hyur base mesh something that was done from the very beginning in 2.0, or was this something done with the graphic updates for Dawntrail? If it's recent, I worry that this might prevent them from doing larger changes if it's not compatible with that mesh conversion.

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Early in the process, they rather proudly showed off that they now have one basic face model that morphs to different proportions instead of having individually made faces with animations built for each one.

When looking through Chinese lodestone threads, I've found this very interesting post about changes in the faces of Midlander males and how they affect the cutscenes and the plot in general.

Warning: HW and SHB spoilers ahead!

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Originally Posted by azaleai

but I do think it would have been nice to have a slide mentioning that it will be covered in the next PLL at the end so we could have the translation right there, rather than hearing "graphical update" in amongst a sentence the vast majority of the English playerbase wouldn't understand and be left wondering what exactly was said until someone translated it for us...

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It's even more difficult for non-English people like me, who have to "translate" Japanese phrases to English and then from English to my own language. I'm still not quite sure what exactly Mr. Yoshida said.

Weird Brows Animation
https://lds-img.finalfantasyxiv.com/...9476c475ac.jpg

This is a Miqo'te Keeper using Face 4 Brows 5.
When expressionless the eyebrows match where the originals are, but when it comes to expressions they become distorted, making the character appear cartoonishly angry.

The new lighting continues to ruin old cutscenes.

Endwalker 6.0.
https://i.imgur.com/6QYGcVE.png

Dawntrail 7.0
https://i.imgur.com/ycLYy3X.png

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Originally Posted by Iscah

[...]
For other races that's not the same problem. My Miqo'te and Au Ra haven't lost the non-human features that indicate their race, but they have lost the specific face shapes that defined them as individual people.

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I hope this doesn't come across as dismissive because I understand where you are coming from and I have enjoyed reading your feedback (as with all) but I respectfully disagree about Au Ra.
I feel like my Au Ra lost her racial traits which to me were the small pupils, sharp nose and smaller mouth.
Though some would probably say those features (aside from the pupil size change) don't count as a defining racial feature and are more likely related to the update as a whole, so it's just my own interpretation after spending 3-ish years with this character.

Also, I apologise if my usage of "hyurification" has upset you. I have only used it in the way I would "humanificiation'" as Hyur is basically "human" in this game. Hyur is one of the races where I can most easily identify the changes so I don't think they are unscathed at all.

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Originally Posted by Argantaelle

In the corresponding Japanese thread, a player retold Mr. Yoshida's words that screenshots can lead to confusion. It seems like we'll receive another black bag without an opportunity to preview its contents and have to deal with the results. At least that's what Google Translate tells me.

I'm afraid there won't be anything substantial in the next PLL too, except maybe for a brief mention: "We are working on characters; please look forward to it.".

So we'll have to endure yet another month of waiting and uncertainty.

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They really ought to update the benchmark again once the next round of changes are "final", though I don't expect it.

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Originally Posted by FlamboyantAsBurningInferno

The new lighting continues to ruin old cutscenes.

Endwalker 6.0.
https://i.imgur.com/6QYGcVE.png

Dawntrail 7.0
https://i.imgur.com/ycLYy3X.png

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That does ruin the whole feeling of that moment with the new lighting

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Originally Posted by Argantaelle

When looking through Chinese lodestone threads, I've found this very interesting post about changes in the faces of Midlander males and how they affect the cutscenes and the plot in general.

Warning: HW and SHB spoilers ahead!

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Going through the link and the screenshots just solidifies I will NEVER go through the game on a new character again. It looks AWFUL, and I'm sorry to say this but they ruined their own game. They want to last another 10 years? I don't see that happening after fucking up this badly. So many people I know either play less or quit entirely because the entire vibe on the cutscenes is ruined by horrendous lighting, bad animations, and everyone looking like completely different people. Talking about this link and thread currently with a friend and going over all the screenshot comparisons and even they are asking what the devs were thinking.

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Originally Posted by Argantaelle

When looking through Chinese lodestone threads, I've found this very interesting post about changes in the faces of Midlander males and how they affect the cutscenes and the plot in general.

Warning: HW and SHB spoilers ahead!

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Those all look fine to me, with maybe one out of the whole bunch being over-lit. Mostly they've just had that godawful grey overlay that used to make everything look bad removed. The lighting issue a few posts up in the scene after defeating Thordan, now THAT is a radical shift for the worse that needs to be fixed. These though? They're hardly different at all, certainly not enough to affect the plot.

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Originally Posted by Astronis

Those all look fine to me, with maybe one out of the whole bunch being over-lit. Mostly they've just had that godawful grey overlay that used to make everything look bad removed. The lighting issue a few posts up in the scene after defeating Thordan, now THAT is a radical shift for the worse that needs to be fixed. These though? They're hardly different at all, certainly not enough to affect the plot.

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Hard disagree. The expression differences are subtle, but so are microexpressions in real life, and those are enough to fully change the emotion being displayed by a face. Facial emotes as a whole need another pass, they look wooden in screenshots and alien in motion.

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Originally Posted by noumen0nn

Hard disagree. The expression differences are subtle, but so are microexpressions in real life, and those are enough to fully change the emotion being displayed by a face. Facial emotes as a whole need another pass, they look wooden in screenshots and alien in motion.

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I can damn near guarantee that someone playing FFXIV for the first time is not going to come away from the game thinking the plot is substantially different than you think it is, based on these subtle differences.

(I say substantially, since at the level of microexpressions, one person's interpretation of another's emotion becomes subjective.)

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Originally Posted by Astronis

Those all look fine to me, with maybe one out of the whole bunch being over-lit. Mostly they've just had that godawful grey overlay that used to make everything look bad removed. The lighting issue a few posts up in the scene after defeating Thordan, now THAT is a radical shift for the worse that needs to be fixed. These though? They're hardly different at all, certainly not enough to affect the plot.

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It's not about the lighting and colors here (I agree in most of these the new lighting looks better), it's about the structural changes to the Hyur face model Ardbert uses making his expressions look different and just in general him looking like a different guy. Yeah, new players won't notice or care, but it kind of sucks for players that love going back through the story or their favorite cutscenes to have a character they liked have expressions that are different and just generally look like a stranger to them.

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Originally Posted by CuteBucket

It's not about the lighting and colors here (I agree in most of these the new lighting looks better), it's about the structural changes to the Hyur face model Ardbert uses making his expressions look different and just in general him looking like a different guy. Yeah, new players won't notice or care, but it kind of sucks for players that love going back through the story or their favorite cutscenes to have a character they liked have expressions that are different and just generally look like a stranger to them.

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I understand that and sympathize with people who dislike it, though of course it's subjective. To me they all look like the same characters with higher fidelity graphics. Ardbert looks like Ardbert to me. I've gone back through some of the cutscenes and enjoyed how much better they look with the update. Urianger looks soooo much better now. To me at least!

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Originally Posted by Astronis

I understand that and sympathize with people who dislike it, though of course it's subjective. To me they all look like the same characters with higher fidelity graphics. Ardbert looks like Ardbert to me. I've gone back through some of the cutscenes and enjoyed how much better they look with the update. Urianger looks soooo much better now. To me at least!

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Dunno if it's on purpose or not that you didn't mention Thancred, who does look noticeably different and younger, which actually I think hurts his portrayal. Hard to see him as the worn, emotionally fraught man who's gone through the wringer when he looks fresh-faced and younger than before. His HW face (ninja one) I believe hasn't been changed yet so you can actually see how his face reverses all traumatic change as the expansions go on.

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Originally Posted by Gaddes

Dunno if it's on purpose or not that you didn't mention Thancred, who does look noticeably different and younger, which actually I think hurts his portrayal. Hard to see him as the worn, emotionally fraught man who's gone through the wringer when he looks fresh-faced and younger than before. His HW face (ninja one) I believe hasn't been changed yet so you can actually see how his face reverses all traumatic change as the expansions go on.

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It wasn't on purpose, no. There are a lot of NPCs I didn't mention; I just happened to be struck specifically by how good Urianger looks (especially his eyes, but everyone has much nicer eyes now). TBH, I'm more concerned about Thancred's eye color changing for no given reason after Heavensward, but that doesn't have anything to do with the graphics update. I'd really, really like to know why his white (presumably blind?) eye changed back when Y'shtola's didn't! I did go back and look at HW Thancred and he looks pretty rough, but before and after he doesn't look so different to me that it gives me pause. A little younger, maybe, but that could be chalked up to the shave, bath, and losing the tan. I agree he looks a little different though and can see why that might affect some people's perception of him.

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Originally Posted by Astronis

Those all look fine to me, with maybe one out of the whole bunch being over-lit. Mostly they've just had that godawful grey overlay that used to make everything look bad removed.

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I can't say that I agree with you. Some facial expressions turned out to be quite awkward, like the new version of the Warrior of Darkness when he stares at the red crystal. Sibold's facial expression changed entirely; instead of a stern young man, I see a constantly smiling person, which (imo) distorts the message of the story. Poor Granson just suffers from the issue with smiles we've discussed in this thread a lot.

I can't say that all the new facial expressions are horrible, but they need to be worked on to better convey the main message of a cutscene.

Also, almost all HW cutscenes are overexposed with unnecessary bright character lighting and weird shadows; sometimes it seems like characters are cut from paper and just slapped on the background without interacting with it in any way.

(very mild HW spoilers)

https://i.imgur.com/YMfuPKS.png
Just compare Alphi and Ga Bu. Ga Bu interacts with the environment; they cast shadows and reflect light, but Alphi looks like an apparition.

I've collected many similar screenshots. HW cutscenes leave much to be desired after the graphical update (ARR and SB are better). I assumed they just hadn't been touched by SE designers yet when I was going through the story on my alt about a month ago.

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Originally Posted by Argantaelle

I've collected many similar screenshots. HW cutscenes leave much to be desired after the graphical update (ARR and SB are better). I assumed they just hadn't been touched by SE designers yet when I was going through the story on my alt about a month ago.

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Except that on PS5 :
- 5 ARR Cutscenes have unexplainable FPS drop (the same goes with 3 outpost)
- SB have 2 Cutscenes with unexplainable FPS drops

HW have 0

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Originally Posted by Doopliss

I consider adjusting facial features 10000% more important, but, I just wanted to say that several months later, I still hate the "intentional" way light interacts with a bunch of hairstyles now.

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https://i.imgur.com/uYVQ5cG.png
Awesome. I can't escape this on any character.

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Originally Posted by Gaddes

Dunno if it's on purpose or not that you didn't mention Thancred, who does look noticeably different and younger, which actually I think hurts his portrayal. Hard to see him as the worn, emotionally fraught man who's gone through the wringer when he looks fresh-faced and younger than before. His HW face (ninja one) I believe hasn't been changed yet so you can actually see how his face reverses all traumatic change as the expansions go on.

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If we're talking about Thancred, I strongly suggest that everyone visits the thread dedicated to him where there's so many examples of how he changed. They gave him default Midlander Face 1 when he'd had a custom sculpt since Heavensward and as a Thancred fan it's honestly devastating. I feel like the character I loved has been lost and there's no way to get him back, and I am hoping desperately that they change him. The lips are such a big issue, like with a lot of the player character models, because they're just taken from the default Midlander face.

Any upvotes or replies on that thread are hugely appreciated to help get the issue more widely noticed by the devs.

This is just sad :(

https://i.imgur.com/Z13kxiR.gif

Lip comparison
https://i.imgur.com/co340Tt.gif

Nose/eyes comparison
Note how much narrower his nose becomes!

https://i.imgur.com/TCKlIDk.gif

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Originally Posted by Astronis

TBH, I'm more concerned about Thancred's eye color changing for no given reason after Heavensward, but that doesn't have anything to do with the graphics update. I'd really, really like to know why his white (presumably blind?) eye changed back when Y'shtola's didn't! I did go back and look at HW Thancred and he looks pretty rough, but before and after he doesn't look so different to me that it gives me pause. A little younger, maybe, but that could be chalked up to the shave, bath, and losing the tan.

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IIRC the in-game reason is that he wasn’t stuck in the Lifestream as long as Y’shtola was, so he didn’t have the same problems as she did. He got to keep his sight, but lost the ability to manipulate aether. (Not sure if the fact that she was a caster and he wasn’t could have played a role in that as well…)

That said, his face is totally different, coming from someone who had a fangirl crush on him for the longest time! The worst (as shown in the helpful gif posted this morning :) ) is the eyes and mouth being completely different shapes, but even the nose/bridge of the nose is off. I notice a more prominent nose bridge on Lalas too.

Faces are a collection of features… tweak any one of them too much and things look off. Tweak all of them without regard for the actual shapes of the original, and they’re just completely different people. I’ve started saying that my current Hyur could be a cousin to the original, but they’re not even close enough to look like sisters!

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Originally Posted by Argantaelle

I can't say that I agree with you.

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That's fine.

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Sibold's facial expression changed entirely; instead of a stern young man, I see a constantly smiling person, which (imo) distorts the message of the story.

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Interesting, since I always interpreted Sicard to have a frequent self-satisfied smirk. Perhaps that's why my opinion hasn't changed much--I previously saw him as character that frequently smiles. Subjective opinions be subjective!

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I assumed they just hadn't been touched by SE designers yet when I was going through the story on my alt about a month ago.

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Very possible. Continuing adjustments to eyelashes notwitstanding, they have said the graphics update would be an expansion-long process.

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Originally Posted by Khryseis_Astra

IIRC the in-game reason is that he wasn’t stuck in the Lifestream as long as Y’shtola was, so he didn’t have the same problems as she did. He got to keep his sight, but lost the ability to manipulate aether. (Not sure if the fact that she was a caster and he wasn’t could have played a role in that as well…)

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I'd love to see where this was pointed out in game. It's bugged me for ages and I apparently missed it both times I played through. I knew about him losing his aether manipulating ability, but not where he regained the color in his eye.

Regarding his appearance, I know it's a bit different, but I'm on record as viewing the graphics as an artistic interpretation of a 'Platonic ideal', so he's still well within artistic parameters of 'Thancred' so therefore I still recognize him as such.

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Originally Posted by Astronis

I'd love to see where this was pointed out in game.

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I don't believe they ever explicitly theorize (in the MSQ, at least) that he was less affected because of less time spent in the lifestream; it's just subtext. But I don't know if I'd argue his disability isn't equal to Y'shtola's to begin with, personally. They certainly both ended up not mattering equally, but I digress.

(And I agree that the eye color thing was bizarre too; not to mention that he wore what was basically a makeshift eyepatch over it for two expansions that one would think meant he maybe couldn't see out of it, but here we are. Maybe he was temporarily blind in that eye, but we weren't told in-game, either way.)

As for his face, I don't particularly care about Thancred himself either, but the differences shown still serve to highlight how Face 1 was changed.

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Originally Posted by Turnintino

(And I agree that the eye color thing was bizarre too; not to mention that he wore what was basically a makeshift eyepatch over it for two expansions that one would think meant he maybe couldn't see out of it, but here we are. Maybe he was temporarily blind in that eye, but we weren't told in-game, either way.)

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It’s going to drive me crazy now because I could’ve swore they said something about it… I know Thancred makes references to the eye patch at some point, something along the lines of “I don’t really need it anymore, but chicks think it’s cool.” lol But I found a comment saying that at FanFest 2021, Ishikawa said that Thancred’s eye injury in Dravania was temporary and never meant to affect his eyesight.

As you say though, it’s a perfect illustration of how bad Hyurs got worked over.

[part 1/2]

It's kind of more a philosophical question, and it's quite difficult for me to write lengthy posts in English, so I'll try to be as concise as possible.

Warning! The wall of text crits you for 9999! (Also SB and SHB spoilers ahead.)

When I was watching one of FFXIV fanfests, I saw a woman. She had a very interesting job in the FFXIV department: she was creating NPC outfits. Why is this job important? Because in the story even minor details (like clothing) are used to convey a certain idea or create a background for a character without telling about it directly. Why are Gaius reborn, Severa, and Valdeaulin dressed like they are? To show a player that even if they are going through troublesome times and not shy about violence (tattered coats and weapons on their backs), they are civilised people, which were pulled out of their civil background and forced to do what they are doing (dress pants and some kind of Chelsea boots).

Faces are far more important than boots. In human culture, certain facial features have specific meanings depending on cultural stereotypes (blond hair, red hair, narrow nose bridge, wide nose bridge, full lips, thin lips, etc.). Even making colours of a face less or more contrasting creates a difference in their personality (the more contrasting the colours are, the more straight lines in features are present, the more determined a person looks). When a new NPC is created, all of the above is taken into consideration. Also, that's why RPGs (MMORPGs included) have character creation tools with features different from regular cute or handsome face parts, so a player could make a character with a certain background to express a certain idea. (Face reading doesn't work with the real people, of course, but plays a very important part in storytelling.)

If you look at the "old" Thancred, what facial features do we see? Regular cheekbones, a prominent chin (often associated with determination), a wider tip of the nose compared to the narrow bridge (indicating his low birth, because narrow noses with a high nose bridge are considered more aristocratic and attractive), full lips (they are often associated with hedonism), tanned skin, bright high-contrast eyes, and darker eyebrows forming almost a straight line (once again, these features help to emphasise his energy and determination). Considering all the above, what person do we see here? Someone who is not afraid of the sun, who leads an active life and enjoys the pleasures life offers. He is of a questionable background (probably from the lowest of the low), but is attractive (roguish charm), and rose from the bottom due to the strength of his character. It pretty much corresponds with Thancred's story, right?

[part 2/2]

But the "new" Thancred conveys a different message. All ties with his low background (as the wide nose, round face, and tan) are lost; his skin is pale, and the shadows under his eyes indicate that he spends most of the time indoors (probably reading or playing videogames, lol). His lips are thin, his chin is less prominent, and his face got wider cheekbones and became less rounded. All these features convey a different message of a person with a different background. Instead of a charming rogue with rough features and determined personality, we see a refined nobleman who seems to be less energetic and more calm.

As I have already said, I don't mind differences, as long as they allow to convey the same idea. But unfortunately they don't. This is one of the examples I've posted before. All Au Ra male face 2 eyebrows are different shades of angry now; the two more or less neutral options (2 and 5) are gone; they don't exist anymore. It's not a problem if your initial intention was to make a regular Au Ra edgelord, but it is a problem if you wanted to create a different person.

I want to thank everyone who managed to get to the end of this very long post :)

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Originally Posted by Argantaelle

I want to thank everyone who managed to get to the end of this very long post :)

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Thank you so much Argantaelle :) As a huge Thancred fan (he's my favourite character) I felt genuinely touched by your words! As Khryseis_Astra said, there's so many little things that have been changed about him that he looks like a different person. Still sort of recognisable as the same character, but off, almost like an uncanny version of him, a Ship of Theseus in a way. As soon as I see a picture of the old Thancred, I can immediately see the difference.

For people who might not care as much for Thancred, it might not be a huge deal, but when you love a character this much it really hurts :(

I can only desperately hope that they revert him to his SHB appearance and rig the model up for 7.0. I know it can be done, and I'll keep fighting for him as I know it means a lot to me and a lot of other people.

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Originally Posted by Turethir

Thank you so much Argantaelle :) As a huge Thancred fan (he's my favourite character) I felt genuinely touched by your words! As Khryseis_Astra said, there's so many little things that have been changed about him that he looks like a different person. Still sort of recognisable as the same character, but off, almost like an uncanny version of him, a Ship of Theseus in a way. As soon as I see a picture of the old Thancred, I can immediately see the difference.

For people who might not care as much for Thancred, it might not be a huge deal, but when you love a character this much it really hurts :(

I can only desperately hope that they revert him to his SHB appearance and rig the model up for 7.0. I know it can be done, and I'll keep fighting for him as I know it means a lot to me and a lot of other people.

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I've also talked about the same thing here for Hancock and much more often in private since he's not as popular but it's like all personality and background was wiped away. He no longer has the thin, pursed lips with a slight, cruel expression, doesn't have dark under eye circles so he doesn't look as tired, and he's slightly more bulky, as if he wasn't malnourished as a child. Speaking generally though, characters were more likely to have been designed with these physical characteristics to match their personalities and backgrounds and not designed with the intent of the "original data" that they claim to be more accurate. Regardless of how accurate the models now match the original data, I just don't think that's what the character designers were working off of.

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Originally Posted by Hatsuoki

Speaking generally though, characters were more likely to have been designed with these physical characteristics to match their personalities and backgrounds and not designed with the intent of the "original data" that they claim to be more accurate. Regardless of how accurate the models now match the original data, I just don't think that's what the character designers were working off of.

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God, dude, I know we don't have "proof" one way or another, but...you're definitely right. It just doesn't make sense otherwise.

They 100% did not design any characters with the intent of the "original data" they reference in the PR-ridden lodestone response. As any good character designer would do, they used and made the best out of the limitations and tools they were given. Their eyes are no different from ours, and they definitely weren't designing characters with the thoughts of them having a different impression in the future. That would just be...insane? And bad character designing. I just can't, in good faith, believe anyone who would think otherwise.

There's no way that Cirina, with her gentle, airy and sometimes surprising disposition was meant to look so...tired and plastic in comparison to her old, more girlish and slightly less conventional-looking model. Sadu, the fierce, battle-loving Dotharl had her face intentionally made up of all of the sharpest feature options. You're telling me they're actually meant to be this much softer and rounded-out?

I also get sad seeing Margrat--the last custom delivery NPC from Endwalker--now with her sharp, longer and more mature features practically removed. It fit her erratic, nerdy busybody personality super well...and her custom delivery portrait still has the old model. It's weirdly depressing to look at. Now her features are also all rounded out, and a little more...droopy-looking. She lacks the emotion she once had.

Bumping to whine about the lighting, because it really is such an eyesore sometimes lol.

https://i.imgur.com/UgMPm7W.png

For the record, this is with character lighting turned all the way down, and yet he's fully illuminated in a completely shadowed environment, as if cut and paste from another image.