As a healer, is it my job to DPS? A new perspective.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

Are you referring to your likes? Why anyone could get a shitload just by insulting me alone

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No? I'm referring to intellectual discussion, I'm not surprised that you missed it.

What's wrong with doing DPS? As long as no one dies, it's pretty much fine.
Simply think this:
1: Did you wipe from wide-area damage because HP wasn't above certain threshold? Healers fault for not keeping HP up.
2: Did you die because you expected healers to keep your health full and didn't dodge skill shots? Your fault.
3: Did you die because no one did mechanics at all and expected healer to do everything? Did you discuss on who's doing mechanics or just assume all healers should just do the mechanics? If not, party is at fault.

There is nothing wrong with cleric stance at all. In fact, it adds more depth in playing healers. The point is to have fun with the game. No one pays their subscription to be a pocket healer and just sit there and do nothing for 10+ minutes in dungeon runs. It's boring. Why would you pay subscription to be bored? If that was the case, no one would ever queue healer, and there will be no dungeon runs.

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Originally Posted by Ashian

There is nothing wrong with cleric stance at all. In fact, it adds more depth in playing healers. The point is to have fun with the game. No one pays their subscription to be a pocket healer and just sit there and do nothing for 10+ minutes in dungeon runs. It's boring. Why would you pay subscription to be bored? If that was the case, no one would ever queue healer, and there will be no dungeon runs.

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i don't queue as a healer to dps for that 10 mins either. if i wanted to do that i would have queued as a dps class. i want to heal in that 10 mins. the game doesn't offer me that, because the incoming damage is way too low. if i want to heal i have to do that in raids, because nowhere else is the incoming damage high enough to be a healer. but oh, wait, i am expected to dps in said raids, because it's hardcore content and everybody should be on top level.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

No? I'm referring to intellectual discussion, I'm not surprised that you missed it.

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Ive not missed anything here but most of your comments were quoting me are you referring to those? I wouldnt call it intellectual. Dont think Ive even seen much of a discussion just personal opininions of me for some reason . Now taking bits out of what is said and using it is that bad behaviour? You said it was

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Originally Posted by Tint

i don't queue as a healer to dps for that 10 mins either. if i wanted to do that i would have queued as a dps class. i want to heal in that 10 mins. the game doesn't offer me that, because the incoming damage is way too low. if i want to heal i have to do that in raids, because nowhere else is the incoming damage high enough to be a healer. but oh, wait, i am expected to dps in said raids, because it's hardcore content and everybody should be on top level.

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well yes this is what its like. Low content I will dps just to get he instances over with cos its pretty boring, and take my bard tank or summoner to ease the monotony. But raid is different, I like the challenge if I can heal. Cant really heal as scholar everyone wants you to dps. So had to change class to be able to heal, but now meta says all healers got to dps.

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Originally Posted by Tint

i don't queue as a healer to dps for that 10 mins either. if i wanted to do that i would have queued as a dps class. i want to heal in that 10 mins. the game doesn't offer me that, because the incoming damage is way too low. if i want to heal i have to do that in raids, because nowhere else is the incoming damage high enough to be a healer. but oh, wait, i am expected to dps in said raids, because it's hardcore content and everybody should be on top level.

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Personally I queue for stuff to complete it regardless of what I have to do during the content. I mean TBH if I wanted to just heal stuff for 10 minutes I could sit in Idylshire and heal random people as they walk by, or maybe wander out into different zones and heal people struggling on FATES.

I haven't encountered any groups that expect healers to be doing a ton of damage in Raids, but there are specific spots where both healers can take advantage of adding some extra damage without too much risk.

Faust -> If SCH does Fey Wind and then swaps to Eos for Rouse/Dawn + Main Heal Regens on the pull both healers can DPS a lot before going back to heals.
A9S - Gravity/Holy DOTS/Bane and Shadowflare are great opportunities to add some DPS on the adds that will really help with party resources.
A10S - This boss is weak so the OH can DPS the whole time while shielding for AOE's and Tank Busters to buy the MH some DPS time
A11S - The whole first phase can be healed with Regens and healer DPS really helps to bypass Whirlwinds and Optics. Even if healers don't DPS at all afterwards it does help for the rest of the fight (kind of like Zurvan Soar)
A12S - During the add phase Healer DPS really helps to kill the small adds and the Almost Holy adds before damage becomes unhealable since they get damage increasing stacks the more times they cast. During Temporal Stasis is a good time for healers to DPS as there is only Alexander Auto Attacks and healers have the easiest mechanics to deal with.

So really if healers only DPS during those specific times they are pretty much pro, which isn't asking a lot IMO.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

Dont think Ive even seen much of a discussion just personal opininions of me for some reason

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If you say so :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Tint

i don't queue as a healer to dps for that 10 mins either. if i wanted to do that i would have queued as a dps class. i want to heal in that 10 mins. the game doesn't offer me that, because the incoming damage is way too low. if i want to heal i have to do that in raids, because nowhere else is the incoming damage high enough to be a healer. but oh, wait, i am expected to dps in said raids, because it's hardcore content and everybody should be on top level.

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This is a valid problem with the game design. The damage either needs to be higher, or there needs to be more other than DPS (that is as relevant as DPS) that can be done. I don't have a specific solution because I'm not the dev team, but this is, unfortunately, the way that the game is designed. The "downtime" between healing is designed to cater to the lowest common denominator, and the side effect is that there is nothing to fill that idle time except DPS.

Edit: probably not relevant to your complaints, but it is good to know that healing in PVP doesn't suffer from the downtime problem.

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

So really if healers only DPS during those specific times they are pretty much pro, which isn't asking a lot IMO.

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I'm in agreement with this. I don't know where the whole "healer DPS is everywhere in high level content" mentality comes from. I know it is in the more hardcore groups but that is fine. The community is actually incredibly diverse, and there are different levels of learning, clear, farm, world first-esque party. People just need to join the ones that are right for them. I have seen far more people jump into high-level parties expecting to have an easy carry than I have a high-level player enforcing healer DPS onto a casual group (which happens basically never).

I'm not saying you should DPS. I'm just saying you should play how you want to play it. Some people prefer to add DPS as healer so let them DPS. If you don't want to DPS, you don't have to. I personally enjoy just healing; but when you're doing nothing at low content, I don't see a reason why not to DPS. Though if you're asking about high-level content, I'm pretty sure you can get away with not DPSing as healer. End game contents doesn't require healers to DPS. Heck, it's pretty tedious to get accuracy stats for healers without melding materia. If your party is lacking in DPS, tell DPS to rotate better or avoid dying since death is pretty much the reason for loss in DPS.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

Strange how personal this has become really all these personal judgement and assumptions about my personality because I dont like the meta being forced.

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Nothing personal here. I repeat : nothing personal here! You can stop already with this.

And no, nothing because you don't like the meta being forced*. Stop with this too. You can repeat it as much as you want, it won't make it more true. You aren't a lone hero fighting against the injustice from the FFXIV community. It's only because you are a very annoying person (stooop, i mean on this thread, i don't know in real life, only annoying here not irl), easily offended, who can't accept facts, advices and opinions from other people.
And animated gifs. I forgot that part, sorry.
Nothing about your opinion, only the way you choose to share it. As we say : Honey catches more flies than vinegar.

But i'm not one of the 4%, so maybe I'm wrong.
Enjoy your time loop!

*It make no sense by the way, or you still don't know what the meta means.

This thread is really in sore need of macros.

It really seems that all this thread has become is circles and circles. One person says this and one person says no that didn't happen and keeps defending a point ad nausea.

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Originally Posted by Lunafreya

It really seems that all this thread has become is circles and circles. One person says this and one person says no that didn't happen and keeps defending a point ad nausea.

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Your right some of us just wanted to tallk about healer dps but some want to talk about me for some reason but yeah your rignt no point any more I mean we had two pages of really non sensical ramblings from someone here cos she took what I said the wrong way once in this thread so those 2 pages wernt from me anyway. Then you get the ' waste of space' giffs that also have nothing to do with healer dps.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

That anyone burdens other people? [...] No just stated the truth that amelia kicked someone

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Jup. You said I put burden on people, while I actually removed it by releasing him from the group and taking away the 'burden' of keeping up with our level of skill.

If you really have a diploma in psychology how can you not see that calling people out for a thing without taking the circumstances into consideration is like calling them a bad person?
You keep referring to me as if I am the pure evil, because I removed someone from my party, while I have all rights to choose with who I want to play.
It's actually funny. I was not nice and not charming, but you don't become a bad person for being not nice. That just makes me a person, you know?

Because I keep wondering: How would you have handled the situation? 7 partymembers playing on a very high level of skill, performing perfectly fine, but with 80% overheal in a farm party.

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Originally Posted by AmeliaVerves

Jup. You said I put burden on people, while I actually removed it by releasing him from the group and taking away the 'burden' of keeping up with our level of skill.


Because I keep wondering: How would you have handled the situation? 7 partymembers playing on a very high level of skill, performing perfectly fine, but with 80% overheal in a farm party.

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To be honest amelia. I never said you were a burden. I wouldnt have kicked him sorry even if he was doing nothing and wanted a carry but I am not against you personally or thinking you are a bad person. It was just a statement of fact and have nothing against you keep saying that merely because i didnt want you to feel bad about it but people asked me for evidence people are kicked for not dpsing whatever the reason. Also kind of felt coerced to give evidence in a way anyway being as I was asked for it. Im the one that was called a burden but ive never once called anyone else one in game or out

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Originally Posted by Feyona

but people asked me for evidence people are kicked for not dpsing whatever the reason.

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no, people asked for evidence of people unfairly kicking people for not dpsing (that was your entire point wasn't it?). Amelia didn't kick them "because they weren't dpsing", they got kicked because they were being lazy, unhelpful and detrimental to the party, and expecting a carry is rude and disrespectful to the other 7 people in the party.

Actually, I am not even mad, rather amazed by how bad your reading skills seem to be. I will show you, just for the sake of it.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

That anyone burdens other people? [...] truth that amelia kicked someone or pointed out elitist words

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Originally Posted by AmeliaVerves

Jup. You said I put burden on people [...]

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Originally Posted by Feyona

To be honest amelia thats whats known as a parataxic distortion. Because I never said you were a burden.

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I don't know how good your english is, but there is a huge difference between putting burden and being a burden. Please decide which one you are talking about and stay with one direction.
At first you asked where you said anyone puts burden on others (to burden someone = to put burden on someone) so I answered you accused me for putting burden on others.
Then you state you never said I am a burden.
Ok, that's right, you never did, because I was not, but what does that have to do with the context? :eek:
No idea what you are trying to tell me about the parataxic distortion, because it is totally not. I didn't expect my co-heal to be server 1st on clears, I wanted him to try improving, no matter what the result would have been. He just straight away refused to. If you mean I am reflecting this distortion onto you, I don't really see where I did that, so please explain to me, because I want to know on what you based your thesis. :)

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Originally Posted by Feyona

I wouldnt have kicked him sorry even if he was doing nothing and wanted a carry

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Fair enough, you don't need to apologize for anything at all, but please realise it is kind of unfair for you to 'call me out' for wanting a team where each member contributes the same will to put effort. In fact we didn't expected him to have purple numbers on fflogs, but we wanted him to try.
In fact you always say how respectful and understanding you are, but it is not respectful at all to point at someones behaviour you do not support or understand.
Even if it is valid or not, this is something I would consider slightly rude. :/

I think it is nice of you to support other players and to help them clear content. It's a nice thing you do for the community, but you should not put that burden on others to live up to that as well. All of us are different and I am just not as patient as you, as it seems, therefore I wont do the same, please respect that.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

disrespectful to the other 7 people

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This is exactly what all of us felt, because I asked him politely to try contributing DPS and that he can just start off with putting DoTs.
If he would have been able to contribute not more than 200dps (which is basically DoTs here and there all over the fight) it would have been perfectly fine, because he would have shown the will to play as part of the team.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

no, people asked for evidence of people unfairly kicking people for not dpsing (that was your entire point wasn't it?). Amelia didn't kick them "because they weren't dpsing", they got kicked because they were being lazy, unhelpful and detrimental to the party, and expecting a carry is rude and disrespectful to the other 7 people in the party.

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No you dint you said no one is kicked for not dpsing as healer

Feyona, please stop being hyper defensive.

People aren't ganging up on you because of some sheep mentality, it's because you spew idiotic drivel, then when people call you out on it, you spew barbs and promptly cry foul when people fire back.

There isn't even any kind of valid debate left in this thread since you keep stomping it out with your immature little routine. I genuinely can't work out if you are a bit dim or just a troll. It's a proper head scratcher at this stage.

Thanks.

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Originally Posted by AmeliaVerves

Then you state you never said I am a burden.
Ok, that's right, you never did, because I was not, but what does that have to do with the context? :eek:


I think it is nice of you to support other players and to help them clear content. It's a nice thing you do for the community, but you should not put that burden on others to live up to that as well. All of us are different and I am just not as patient as you, as it seems, therefore I wont do the same, please respect that.

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I do respect that and said so. The way I put it maybe confused but it was saying that I havent called anyone a burden in the context that I was saying it was reflecting about what people have called me . Its very awkward on here with a controlker to precisely put things across the right way. It doesnt matter about it was innappropriate

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Originally Posted by Feyona

No you dint you said no one is kicked for not dpsing as healer

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And as I stated, because english is a wonderful language and you should read it some time, that the intention of Amelias kick was not "because they weren't DPSing", rather their detriment and disrespect to the party. My assumption behind your point is that you are disregarding this fact, and are trying to defend hard working players who are kicked unfairly, am I wrong? If I'm not then it is highly apparent, even if not said, that when we ask for evidence of your point, we are asking for evidence of it happening unfairly, otherwise you are defending a poor class of play and that is very damaging to the game.

The fact that I have to explain this is tiring ok? We may come across as patronising but that is because every little thing has to be explained to you, you don't pick up on subtext and fuel every post with your own narrative, and still think you have the higher ground even though you have still yet to back up your opinion with any kind of meaningful.... well anything really at this point

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Feyona, please stop being hyper defensive.

People aren't ganging up on you because of some sheep mentality, it's because you spew idiotic drivel, then when people call you out on it, you spew barbs and promptly cry foul when people fire back.

There isn't even any kind of valid debate left in this thread since you keep stomping it out with your immature little routine. I genuinely can't work out if you are a bit dim or just a troll. It's a proper head scratcher at this stage.

Thanks.

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maybe you think so its really up to you maybe 'dimness' comes from people not understanding what is said. but from what you said earlier you are older then why did you resort to having another personal barb about me? Instead of looking at others posts that vould be considered far more irrelevant to the discussion than mine

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

And as I stated, because english is a wonderful language and you should read it some time, that the intention of Amelias kick was not "because they weren't DPSing", rather their detriment and disrespect to the party.

The fact that I have to explain this is tiring ok? We may come across as patronising but that is because every little thing has to be explained to you, you don't pick up on subtext and fuel every post with your own narrative, and still think you have the higher ground even though you have still yet to back up your opinion with any kind of meaningful.... well anything really at this point

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yes its tiring you keep trying to explain stuff that I already know and keep twisting the facts why on earth cant you see that you do that? I will give evidence later if you like people said no one is kicked for not dpsing full stop factual stop twisting it

Because there's actually been some genuinely interesting conversation from time to time in this thread coupled with useful and well researched data. Everytime without fail you've derailed it.

This thread has gone from potentially interesting debate to arguing about the finer details of what someone said 50 or so pages ago.

Having an opinion is fine, but leave the agenda at the door please =(

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Originally Posted by Feyona

people said no one is kicked for not dpsing full stop factual stop twisting it

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Lets see shall we, I guess I need to do another one of these (not that it will help in the slightest)...

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

who is "they"? Nobody here has condoned that, and that is not normal behavior on at least my server, and I bet others can vouch that this is not normal or accepted behavior on any other servers.

Toxic people exist, but we move on from that and find better people, that is the way MMOs work.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

This thread and quote you are talking about... don't expect others to find it for you, it makes for an incredibly weak argument and doesn't put your point in a very good light. The quote (?) that you just posted is also so out of context it hurts. Does that mean in casual content? in raid content? does it mean if they are idling? You don't see these factors, you just ASSUME that the standard attitude is DPS no matter what, which is simply untrue.

If you can give me concrete evidence that anything but the sheer minority of players that you come across expect DPS no matter how intensive the healing, then I will concede defeat and I'll even eat my hat. So far you have used the word "them" and given out of context, unsourced quotes that even if they were in context and sourced is merely anecdotal and doesn't represent a wholesome view of the issue.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

Your so wrong and you obviously dont understand my points your the one always trying to argue with me and you dont main heal, so why cant you just accept this is the game experience there is alot of expectation for healers to dps and with no offence to amelia verves above that she stated above that she kicked a non dpsing healer. There is your pressure. Its up to amelia if she doesnt want that in her group but the rest of some people would like to heal without that pressure

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Originally Posted by AmeliaVerves

There you go.
No stance dancing. No heals needed. Not. A. Single. One. From. Him.
How is that pressure? He literally just had to go into cleric and put/renew DOTs and throw ruin/broil.

I went as WHM because I know what I am capable of and because I know I can solo heal it. So I chose to be the main-heal in that group and wanted an off-healer that is basically just there if people mess up.
Noone messed up. It was a super smooth run, with incredibly high DPS, everyone was giving their best. Except SCH, who just idled around or casted unnecessary physicks which ended up in 100% overheal. -> Nice!

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Originally Posted by AmeliaVerves

The sad truth is: everyone is on her side when it comes to learning parties and unexperienced healers. Noone here would even want them to stress too much and just get used in their own pace.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

No I had no intention of attacking you at all, in fact the opposite where people are saying that there was no evidence of non dps healers being kicked. If there were no heals necessary its a different thing. I will apologise though for stating it. In my experience some do need both healers to heal often if tank is in dps stance. Or people fail mechics alot. I did not have any bad intentions in it, was just statement that it happens. I think where Im coming from is I feel people may be uncomfortable with going in cleric, full stop, especially in new content. I do realise that maybe none of you have this attitude that consciousy puts pressure on I just think people may exprience what is demanded in different ways.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

The "evidence" that you provided was also selective and wrong, which you yourself apologised for misreading, I genuinely wanted to see the evidence that the community as a whole is toxic towards healers (implication being the "expects dps no matter what type"), thats why I asked for it, it just so happens that you yourself invalidated your "evidence". I haven't really been denying what you have been saying, I actually said (you can find the quote) that I would concede defeat and agree with you if you found me the evidence, so I'm not sure why I need a reality check.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

no, people asked for evidence of people unfairly (read up about toxic behavior) kicking people for not dpsing (that was your entire point wasn't it?). Amelia didn't kick them "because they weren't dpsing", they got kicked because they were being lazy, unhelpful and detrimental to the party, and expecting a carry is rude and disrespectful to the other 7 people in the party.

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Yep, thats a whole lot of... not... twisting anything.

Edit: bolded for clarity

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Originally Posted by Feyona

I do respect that and said so.

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Thanks, so let us leave that aside by now.

But so far I still would like to know what you referred the parataxic distortion to, because I still can't figure that out. I don't want to pick on you, it's just that I am interested in how my words reached you in a way that you think this applys to me. :)

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Originally Posted by Feyona

The way I put it maybe confused but it was saying that I havent called anyone a burden in the context that I was saying it was reflecting about what people have called me . Its very awkward on here with a controlker to precisely put things across the right way. It doesnt matter about it was innappropriate

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I am not native english myself so I find it hard to understand what you are trying to say here. I'm sorry. :(
Of course I understand that the context of the burden-thingy was not related to my post, but it's more guesswork than actual understanding. ^^'

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Originally Posted by AmeliaVerves

But so far I still would like to know what you referred the parataxic distortion to, because I still can't figure that out. I don't want to pick on you, it's just that I am interested in how my words reached you in a way that you think this applys to me. :)

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It's pretty much a running theme in this thread unfortunately, you aren't the first to be on the receiving end of this behaviour by any stretch.

Here's a good example, maybe it'll help Fey appreciate why so many people are getting tired of this now:

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Originally Posted by Feyona

On savage once I was 95% active just healing , not overhealing either. I was told I was a shit player for not dpsing. If you understand what Im saying thats why Im against healers being expected to dps. If they want to its fine, it shouldnt be forced.

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Originally Posted by Taika

Oct 26th activity 86.18% overheal 48.65%
Nov 2nd activity 93.07% overheal 33.87%
Nov 9th activity 58.02% overheal 37.43%

Either you're reading the numbers wrong or you're lying.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

Not all my fights are posted. Show me a healer that has 0% overheal. Why are you so pedantic? You seem to dislike anything outside your thinking box. Im not hard core watch the numbers meticulous player. Im just an average player that does their best in the situation Im in. Just because I didnt meticulously, state there was a little overheal it doesnt mean Im a lyer. Please dont bother responding to that with 40% is not a a little. Ive done mnay clears since november, and Im well aware of what the hardcore mentality expectations are.

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@Feyona: I've bolded the bits where I object to what's being said for clarity. Get rid of those and frankly, it's a pretty reasonable debate that's hard to fault. As is tho, you just give off the impression that you're trying to project your own failings on other people in an effort to protect the little bubble you live in.

TLDR, As ever, stop being hyper defensive, and stop throwing your toys out of the pram when someone confronts you. You might not like it, but reasonable debate and thoughtful confrontation is a very important part of life.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

snip

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I get what you are trying to say and I totally agree this discussion is running in circles since several pages and I get it's frustrating and I do think Feyona is a bit overly sensitive about people just calling out their oppinions. But I do wonder:

Was that really necassary of you now? ^^'

I mean, we all got, more or less, what Feyona is like and how she handles situations, but you don't need to trigger her even more, you know. :/
For me, I realised she does not answer to very long postings completely, but takes just parts to talk about, that is why I let down parts of the discussion, but focused on the very thing I would like to get an answer to.
It is kind of annoying and it streches conversations, but if it is the only way things might be leading into a slightly productive direction we should try to go that way. :eek:

Frankly, yes.

Multiple people myself included have tried short and swift responses, long well researched answers and very reasonable replies. The end result always gets ground down into a petty he said/she said mush.

The bottom line is that we now have a thread approaching 170 pages that could be summarised in a simple paragraph:

It isn't fundamental to your job to DPS no, rather it's better to think of your job as being to support and enhance your party to the best of your personal ability given the tools you have at hand.

Of course the big detail that muddies the otherwise clear waters here is savage content. Simply put, progression groups going for early clears had to lean on their tanks and healers for additional DPS more than I'd ever seen before (And I sold 7 man T9 clears long before the lockout was removed). Thus the meta was born and these high expectations gradually filtered down to mainstream play.

Outside of this core discussion, there's maybe 10 pages of useful info, talking about DPS windows, considering HPS vs DTPS. Even more advanced topics are touched such as optimising healers to split the HPS/DPS load to really maximise both players potential. It's rare to see useful info like this here and it's a shame that it's so heavily buried amongst pointless arguing and tittle tattle.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Outside of this core discussion, there's maybe 10 pages of useful info, talking about DPS windows, considering HPS vs DTPS. Even more advanced topics are touched such as optimising healers to split the HPS/DPS load to really maximise both players potential.

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I wanted to expand on that a bit more, because I have personal experience there that the group might find interesting.

We have a very heavily dps oriented SCH who does what I call "surgical precision heals." As we work on progression he learns exactly how little healing is required from him, then remains in cleric stance for virtually the rest of the fight. Example: our A11S clear (BLM pov) https://www.facebook.com/chef.food.d...4168430348062/ If you watch our SCH, you'll see how infrequently he leaves cleric stance. He has very rigid control of the fairy and optimizes her actions.

This is great SCH play. On the other hand, a frequent complaint of our main healer is that he's essentially had to solo heal this whole tier, with the exception of A12S which was more healing intensive during progression. He also uses his Swiftcast on shadowflares so when a raise was needed, our SMN got in the bad habit of holding his SC for raising.

His dps is consistently around 1600 per phase. On the other hand, our main healer almost never has room to dps at all. When he's on AST (which he is for every floor but A11s) he at least likes to keep his dots up.

When we started running Zurvan, we adjusted our lineup because an off tank wasn't needed. Our SCH went MNK instead, and he's a God mode MNK who can sustain near 3k. I went off heals on AST, but aside from the opener, I let our main healer know when I was supporting heals, when I would dps, when I was using Disable, and tried to take point on raises. (Our SMN was conditioned at that point to get the first raise.) Our end parses - which we don't upload, sorry - looked very balanced from a HPS/DPS perspective for both healers. The dps numbers were almost exactly the same, for opener and overall fight. And we always skipped soar, and used LB3 at the end. :^)

This took a lot of pressure off our main healer because at that point the encounter felt more balanced. He felt like he could keep up his dps and the party and tank were still taken care of.

Later, we went back in for bird farming and alt weapons and I went main heals while he went off heals on AST. He had some trouble relaxing and letting me main heal while he went mostly dps mode but we were able to trade dps windows back and forth.

So for Stormblood we're looking at having our SCH play his God mode MNK, while one of our dps who's been healing a lot more is looking at swapping into that spot. It's awesome to have a SCH who can push that much dps but for our group, our healers are looking how to most fairly distribute the load. And our SCH really does just want to dps, so he asked us to consider his wishes to change to a dps role, and happily it looks like we'll be able to change our lineup to make it work.

This thread has been so intense that the Game of Thrones producers should take a lesson! XD

The takeaway for me:

1. Healers who also contribute DPS are always adding more benefit to the encounter. This is purely numbers, not judgement.

2. The debate about whether or not its our "job" to DPS will never be resolved until healers have either no healing abilities, or no DPS abilities.

3. Players can, and will try to have the experience that they want for themselves at all times.

4. The vote kick/abandon features exist to provide a reasonably democratic method for serving the wishes of the many, rather than the few.

I DPS not because of pressure from others, but because I enjoy it, and I want to help my groups however I can. I may not DPS as much as some would like in high-pressure situations, but I also know that I'll never please everyone, and that's ok. Be happy with yourself, but be honest about how you play and why you play that way.

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Originally Posted by bounddreamer

I wanted to expand on that a bit more, because I have personal experience there that the group might find interesting.

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I didn't get to the see the very start of your fight video but it looks like your WHM had a lot of DPS windows that weren't used. I can understand them wanting to play things safe if that was your first clear though.

- SCH used Fairy Regen between two optical sights so Medica II wasn't required - But as far as positioning the SCH kept missing the tanks with the Fairy Regen both at the start and during Lapis.
- SCH could have put up Succor during the last Limit Cut dash to have it up for Whirlwind as well as used Indom between Ruin II and applied Virus to open DPS time for the WHM.
- WHM could have put Assylum over the entire party and tank during the Limit Cut part paired with the regen would have allowed them to DPS the whole time.

- Timing the application of instant cast skills for when you know you will have to move is really helpful on healers. i.e. Bio/Aero for SCH moving to spread position etc.

- SCH could have helped a lot more with Indom and Succor during the Tower Phase to buy the WHM more DPS uptime there so the WHM did ok on that part.

Nice fight to watch though.

Part of what you're seeing in that fight is a lack of synergy between our two healers. Our main healer doesn't trust that he'll get help when he needs it in a pinch, so he neglects those dps windows because our SCH stayed dps stance so much. And I know he'd agree with you on those indoms and succors during tower phases because I remember him asking for that! The problem was once Akiva proved he could heal through it, Astraea let him. Also, our off healer is in TS with us but never uses a mic, only text chat. So that's a strong consideration in shifting him to an actual dps slot while someone with a mic takes point on heals.

Good critiques. We definitely tightened things up after the first clear and that one was a bit sloppy bc of various reasons.

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Originally Posted by AmeliaVerves

Thanks, so let us leave that aside by now.

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Really difficult to explain parataxic distortion here. Basically, its a defence mechanism, based on a distorted evaluation. Is this case its distorted because it was perceived like that, where it wasnt about you at all. Here I would say, from reading posts that people have already put me into a certain frame of reference (from earler significant others) and expect my responses to be derrogatory towards them, which I actually never intended but have been put in that 'box' Therefore anything I say is perceived as being aimed at them as intentional attack or something even when it isnt, but gets distorted in by the expectation from one in that category. So if you perceive me as saying burden that its aimed at you that is parataxic distortion. But being as I noted your not english and I wrote it badly it was innappropriate. Hope that answers your question :)

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

It's pretty much a running theme in this thread unfortunately, you aren't the first to be on the receiving end of this behaviour by any stretch.

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So what is your gripe? People keep quoting me when I say things, some of which are derrogatory like Im lying. So I respond to it , then I get accused of arguing with them, but they are actually arguing with me. Is it because Im direct with my replies like above where Im not meticulous, and pedantic means meticulous btw. Im am pretty direct I dont flower things up so is it my directness you dont like ? What you call hyperdefensive is merely stating the truth or correcting. And if my failings are pointed out I will point out yours too touche. Receiving end of my responses to your barbs? Dont you know by now if you derrogate someone they will respond in kind?

You just can't help yourself can you?

I've been pretty clear and open about my grievance with your posts, there's no need for me to sully this thread any further with that, you are welcome to go back and read it if you must.

This page alone shows that there is plenty of interesting dialogue and discussion to be had, so how about you shut up and let the thread actually progress forward?

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

I didn't get to the see the very start of your fight video but it looks like your WHM had a lot of DPS windows that weren't used. I can understand them wanting to play things safe if that was your first clear though.

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Remind me when I get a decent internet connection again to upload an A11s so you can critique why I always feel so overstretched going into final phase double whirlwinds, I'm pretty certain I'm napping and not getting back into the middle soon enough or such and it's always felt a bit too tight at that point =(

<3 solid second opinions.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

And as I stated, because english is a wonderful language and you should read it some time,

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lambdafish I may be defending a poor standard of play but I also believe in choice. I would be pretty hypocritcal if I kicked someone for not dpsing when I hate it myself and want to be a healer. In fact its all I like in the game and all I want to do but, still dps if the party wants me to. Now as for this issue of should everyone else carry him? That is personal choice, and it makes some people angry so I wish SE would make it clear either that they have to put effort in as well or they can choose to just heal. My stance is just to let people have fun if I carry someone I dont care. like I dont mind carrying frends at all. I like people to feel happy thats all. However you think Im not perfect I know but dont hate enough to be really nasty. Im short sarcastic. Even dont debate well how I 'should' I dont really do much of 'should' . I question it.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

So what is your gripe? People keep quoting me when I say things, some of which are derrogatory like Im lying. So I respond to it , then I get accused of arguing with them, but they are actually arguing with me. Is it because Im direct with my replies like above where Im not meticulous, and pedantic means meticulous btw. Im am pretty direct I dont flower things up so is it my directness you dont like ? What you call hyperdefensive is merely stating the truth or correcting. And if my failings are pointed out I will point out yours too touche. Receiving end of my responses to your barbs? Dont you know by now if you derrogate someone they will respond in kind?

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^Hmm. Parataxic distortion, you say?
http://i.imgur.com/TvQNndZ.jpg

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Originally Posted by Feyona

Im am pretty direct I dont flower things up [...] Dont you know by now if you derrogate someone they will respond in kind?

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If you can learn something from what you just wrote here, it would fix the whole thread. And all the little conflicts that you made. :)
Because you are the only person here to have started multiple conflicts based on nothing, or on a word that you can't accept (and often out of context, or misinterpretation). I'm not saying this to attack you again, but... Again... To help... ...

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Originally Posted by Feyona

People keep quoting me when I say things, some of which are derrogatory like Im lying.

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Take a huge breath. Reread the messages where you think someone said you were a liar, and come back later with a fresh mind. At some point, you should be able to read some words without taking them as an offense. You just need to calm down, and really read what people say.

There is something else that I would like to share with you :

http://i.imgur.com/mq33i4p.png

And no need to come back with the following nonsense :

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Originally Posted by Feyona

Are you looking in the mirror at the moment wanzer because , not able to accept facts and easily offended that applies to you, only I would add unable to accept the way others say things.

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As I said before, I'm not taking part in this thread, but I learned a lot from it. Especially when I'm free to release Cleric Stance in Alex S. :)
And I'm totally open to get new ideas, and even discuss about them. But... Some people here are better than me to put words on my thoughts. Saying this just in case of "no, YOU should read it". '-'

^It's not a Gif, I promise.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

...

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Aaw. I know that feeling... :<
http://i.imgur.com/4vM29Bc.gif

That chart above is pure gold :D

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Originally Posted by bounddreamer

Later, we went back in for bird farming and alt weapons and I went main heals while he went off heals on AST. He had some trouble relaxing and letting me main heal while he went mostly dps mode but we were able to trade dps windows back and forth.

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This detail in particular interests me the most as I'm in a very similar setting all told and whilst it works nicely for us, it's clear it's not particularly optimal. Even on the run that got my co healer world second on A12S (pre echo), our combined DPS was barely top 50 material. On the flipside, when I'm on SCH and DPSing, my damage numbers aren't close to his, but I subconsciously bubble big hits and such even if it's not 'needed'. It makes me wonder if an aggressive 'main healer' coupled with a cautious but DPS capable SCH would actually be more effective overall.

Let me know how your combined numbers add up, it'd definitely be interesting to see <3

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Originally Posted by Feyona

lambdafish I may be defending a poor standard of play but I also believe in choice.

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So does everyone else, well all believe in choices. Why is "choice" exclusive to you? Is it because if someone were to "choose" to kick someone for whatever reason that they are automatically in the wrong? If you are a champion of choice, you would accept all the opinions that oppose your opinions equally.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

I would be pretty hypocritcal if I kicked someone for not dpsing when I hate it myself and want to be a healer. In fact its all I like in the game and all I want to do but, still dps if the party wants me to.

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So don't kick healers who don't dps, nobody is telling you to do it.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

Now as for this issue of should everyone else carry him? That is personal choice, and it makes some people angry so I wish SE would make it clear either that they have to put effort in as well or they can choose to just heal.

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Good for you. You seem like a patient person in game who is very willing to burn your own gametime to help someone who doesn't give a crap about your time. The anger comes from people like me, who can only game a few hours a week, who makes a PF with specific goals and having people who do not align with the goals at all. They are insulting the group and me for not aligning with the goals set in the PF and they are especially insulting for not being considerate of my tiny amount of gametime.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

My stance is just to let people have fun if I carry someone I dont care. like I dont mind carrying frends at all.

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Great, I love to see my friends happy too and I'll carry them through content but because I know them, enjoy playing with them and they share my values. And it's hypocritical to say let everyone have fun when you don't accept that there are people who have fun through performance and optimization. You think they don't deserve fun because they think that way?

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Originally Posted by Feyona

I like people to feel happy thats all. However you think Im not perfect I know but dont hate enough to be really nasty. Im short sarcastic. Even dont debate well how I 'should' I dont really do much of 'should' . I question it.

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I like people feeling happy as well, I'm sure everyone else here feels the same way. That is also not exclusive to you. Some of us choose to make the group happy by kicking underperforming people or people who do not follow the group's established rules. Why is that wrong? Is that 1 person's happiness any more important than the other 7?

Please note that all of my questions are rhetorical so please don't cut out my entire post to answer a question out of context.