Players connot join the party while you are engaged in combat

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Originally Posted by Lobo

I agree. Quite frankly the game is currently built around pretty much anything no one wants as a game mechanic.

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QFT.

I think there was a reason as to why they kicked the first team? Oh yes, people didn't like the game "features"

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Originally Posted by Lobo

I think stupid dumb *** like this is honestly what's killed the game for me. EVERY single choice they have made and continue to make with this game is about "preventing abuse" in such complete *** ridiculous and obscure ways that it totally *** the real player base of both fun and convenience. God it's like living through a communist witch hunt. What's that over there?! OMG RMT ARE D/CING TO KITE A MARMOT WITH TEIR ARCHERS!?!?!? WUT AREZ WE GUN DOEZ?!

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The hilarious thing is that the rmts still run rampant and the gms dont do a damn thing about it. Go to any aetheryte crystal at any camp and theres like 50% chance there will be a group of rmts just standing there while someone else is going off and doing the leve in their party. The fact that SE doesn't listen to the people who actually wan this game to be good is what has put this game in the mess it is in, and they still haven't learned? We have been telling them how awful some of their design choices were since alpha. You would think that the game getting terrible reviews, and all the reviewers stating the same things we said needed to be changed were what made the game so awful would wake them up but apparently not.

Concrete operational thinkers aren't capable of understanding the developmental design. They only see the direct consequence to them personally. They literally cannot grasp the overall point to the design. Most MMORPG players are concrete operational thinkers. That is the main problem.

To account for teens' inabilities to develop a working society because their brains aren't developed enough to do so, and yet still try to please them as the major parties in that society...is a difficult task. In the real world they don't have any sort of voice or power, so they don't matter. Here, they matter, but their brains are still too immature to implement everything they want en masse.

This is just one of those things that no. You don't get what you want, because you don't know what you're asking for.

Honestly, the only thing I think SE needs to do is have you not get booted from the party when you log off or d/c. Anything besides that has potential to screw up party dynamics cause its so damn easy to change class. Also you should be able to log off when your fighting. No reason not to. These are the only 2 things I can think that would be safe to change in the current system. Correct me if I'm wrong though.

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Originally Posted by Bayohne

As you can see by the discussion taking place, there are many facets involved in the current design of not being able to invite while engaged. We checked in with the dev. team and were informed that because we have not designed content centered around the need to swap party members, we do not plan on changing this. However, depending on the content we add in the future, there is a possibility that we may change our policy or implement specific exceptions.

There will always be "what about [xyz] instance!" where being unable to invite is a hindrance, but overall the system was designed for specific purposes. We do appreciate the comments and feedback presented, and I'll be sure to pass these along as well.

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Unfortunately this not an issue about "There will always be...is a hinderance." It is an issue about the game becoming unplayable. The connections are unstable. People loose connection. People cannot play because your system, working as intended, forces people to quit battle, disengage, or die. I'm fairly certain that the dev designed the system so that team work and cooperation would allow you to win difficult battles. What they have done is made it impossible. It is endlessly frustrating to get 90% through a battle just to loose it because the devs unstable, unreliable system, disallows someone from returning to battle after getting disconnected.

To quote facebook, "Dislike button."

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Originally Posted by Kam

lol not if you ever spent any time talking with GMs. It was proberbly on the jpbutton.com, but the devs on XI gave a clear answer. It was legit.

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And it's no longer wanted. You would have raged and cried if they took it away from you back then. That's how much of a problem it was. This is them, effectively not allowing smoking now that they have the opportunity to. Are you allowed to smoke? Sure. Does everyone wish you just didn't? Yeah!

So now you can't. This is their opportunity to implement the right policies from the start so they don't have to deal with bad players using poor tactics.

It wasn't legit. It was an oversight which they have corrected. If you were proud of you being a tolerated oversight, I'm sorry. If the devs respected you for that, they would have let you keep doing it.

They don't. Respect you for that.

yall are being lame, the game isnt about world NMs any more, they are going to shift to instanced content, and world content will most likely be world content, ie anyone can get in on it. In which case in the world the dced man can rejoin, and in the instances you have to reset, or stall for 20 secs to re add the player.

if you get dced, oh well.

If the game is having issues and dcing you on its own, thats its own issue and should definiately be resolved.

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Originally Posted by Peregrine

Concrete operational thinkers aren't capable of understanding the developmental design. They only see the direct consequence to them personally. They literally cannot grasp the overall point to the design. Most MMORPG players are concrete operational thinkers. That is the main problem.

To account for teens' inabilities to develop a working society because their brains aren't developed enough to do so, and yet still try to please them as the major parties in that society...is a difficult task. In the real world they don't have any sort of voice or power, so they don't matter. Here, they matter, but their brains are still too immature to implement everything they want en masse.

This is just one of those things that no. You don't get what you want, because you don't know what you're asking for.

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what does this have to do with a game feature thats almost required?

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Originally Posted by origamikitsune

Unfortunately this not an issue about "There will always be...is a hinderance." It is an issue about the game becoming unplayable. The connections are unstable. People loose connection. People cannot play because your system, working as intended, forces people to quit battle, disengage, or die. I'm fairly certain that the dev designed the system so that team work and cooperation would allow you to win difficult battles. What they have done is made it impossible. It is endlessly frustrating to get 90% through a battle just to loose it because the devs unstable, unreliable system, disallows someone from returning to battle after getting disconnected.

To quote facebook, "Dislike button."

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Sorry to hear of your woes. I never DC.

Welcome back! I for one missed our Community Reps.

I honestly don't see a problem here, because it seems clear to me that this mechanic exists to prevent abuses. Disconnects suck, so in the future the server team may want to make FFXIV a little more packet-loss tolerant or devise some other solution. In theory there would be a way of devising a way of making party joins during combat fair, but I think doing so with the game as currently designed would require a complex set of rules, which would still be imperfect and prone to exploits. There are better things for the Devs to be working on. I haven't personally encountered anyone in my LS or parties I've joined complain about this in-game, so it's possible the vast majority of players are fine with this the way it is.

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Originally Posted by Physic

yall are being lame, the game isnt about world NMs any more, they are going to shift to instanced content, and world content will most likely be world content, ie anyone can get in on it. In which case in the world the dced man can rejoin, and in the instances you have to reset, or stall for 20 secs to re add the player.

if you get dced, oh well.

If the game is having issues and dcing you on its own, thats its own issue and should definiately be resolved.

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how often are you guys DCing on NMs what the heck is going on. i rarely dc and rarely see people DC. solve the DC issue, the system doesnt need to be made around the idea that DCs are always going to happen.

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Originally Posted by Peregrine

It shouldn't be and hasn't been reconsidered for a reason. You can't differentiate between an illegitimate and a legitimate DC. Period. Most endgame DCs in FFXI were illegitimate and intentional. Most party swaps were illegitimate and intentional. If you allow it, most action will be illegitimate. Some actions are so prone to abuse that they're not allowed to be performed, even by well-intending people. Sorry. That's the way life works, and you are not so revolutionary to come along at your age at this time and suddenly make everyone realize how wrong it is. You're wrong. Society is right.

It works this way for the stability of the society, which is above and more important than your personal wishes.

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If it's an illegitimate disconnect, then the party leader can manually remove them from the party. What's the problem? I don't get it. All they have to do is make it so that disconnected players don't drop party when disconnecting, did you even read my post? Because your response doesn't even make sense. I'm guessing you're just trolling eh.

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Originally Posted by Ava

If it's an illegitimate disconnect, then the party leader can manually remove them from the party. What's the problem? I don't get it. All they have to do is make it so that disconnected players don't drop party when disconnecting, did you even read my post? Because your response doesn't even make sense. I'm guessing you're just trolling eh.

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Thats what I assumed a page ago. Theres no way someone could be that big of a moron.

Okay folks, the answer to "Can I add party members during combat?" is, for now, a stern but polite "no".

Weather SE is afraid it'll lead to abuse or not, nobody seems to deny that it can, which makes the "no" answer seem justified on at least some level rather than blatant disregard for your opinions.

The only legitimate use of adding a player seems to be to regroup with a person who disconnected unintentionally. That being the case, it doesn't seem like anyone really wants to be able to add any player at any time during a combat to begin with, so why are we even asking for something so broad to combat such a specific case? Automatically putting the person back into the party if they reconnect before the combat is over would be sufficient, and even more convenient since there's no need to dig into menus or target anything to get the results you want.

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Originally Posted by DurtiMonkeyToe

How is anything he said condescending or curt. Sorry, the game isn't built around what YOU want as a game mechanic.

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Yes it is, me and everyone else that plays this game. The fact that the BETA feedback information was completely ignored before final release cements this fact, how can you possible ague it doesn't? The fact is I reported a problem we had with their system, he replied referencing a cheat mechanic which had nothing to so with the original complaint - and the original complaint is a legitimate issue.

Had he worded it like:

"We understand your worries but the devs are concerned that this will be used for exploitative purposes and we cannot change it at this time. We still welcome any suggestions.."

Then I would have felt that my point had been taken on and not discarded out of hand. It's called Customer Service.

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Originally Posted by Peregrine

And it's no longer wanted. You would have raged and cried if they took it away from you back then. That's how much of a problem it was. This is them, effectively not allowing smoking now that they have the opportunity to. Are you allowed to smoke? Sure. Does everyone wish you just didn't? Yeah!

So now you can't. This is their opportunity to implement the right policies from the start so they don't have to deal with bad players using poor tactics.

It wasn't legit. It was an oversight which they have corrected. If you were proud of you being a tolerated oversight, I'm sorry. If the devs respected you for that, they would have let you keep doing it.

They don't. Respect you for that.

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You're completely over-stating the "exploits". lol FFXI was mostly easy. I never used a d/c trick to reset hate. Around 18months ago I was in a ls killing JoL with 7 and 2 dual boxed mules.
I don't know what high horse you think you're on, or what real issue you have with being able to invite people while in combat. And yes, if a member d/c'd in a 7man JoL we weren't fucked. Here if your tank d/cs midfight with GB, totally different story.

Its a basic requirement.

Party members shouldn't be removed from the party when they disconnect in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Ava

If it's an illegitimate disconnect, then the party leader can manually remove them from the party. What's the problem? I don't get it. All they have to do is make it so that disconnected players don't drop party when disconnecting, did you even read my post? Because your response doesn't even make sense. I'm guessing you're just trolling eh.

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You clearly don't get it. The party leader approved the illegitimate disconnect. How stupid do some of you all think the developers are? Honestly. I, and they, are covering for the guaranteed scenario where white mages reset their hate levels in rotations so they don't ever get the intended amount of hate. I, and they, are covering the guaranteed scenario that you all don't turn endgame tactics into stupidly cheap job rotations.

And you don't understand any of those core concepts, because to you, you just can't get past the significance of you DC'ing and you wanting back in the party. You want. You should get.

That's how this works in your head, but that's not how society works. You don't understand the implicaitons of your wants. most MMORPG players don't have the development to. That's the primary problem. The developers have made the correct decision.

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Originally Posted by DurtiMonkeyToe

Sorry to hear of your woes. I never DC.

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Neither do, except the rare occasion when my ISP actually glitches (maybe once or twice a week). I cannot say the same for a lot of the people I play with. Last night was a prime example. Two 34s lnc/arc + 25con fighting Unknown Soldier. Arc D/Cs. Con and I stalemate Soldier at 50% because of his drain attack. We can. Not. Win. We disengage. We re-invite. We were very lucky the other people camping Soldier were not paying attention and did not get claim.

Ok here's how to design around exploits using some common sense, k? People logging out in the middle of HNM battles to reset their hate? Remove the ability to log out during combat, WoW does it and so do most other MMOs. Player d/cs mid fight? As many have said before, allow them to come back automatically into the party, and fix your server instability issues. Here's another crazy idea, oh I don't know, maybe have a fairly active GM team that actually gives a fuck? I know, I know, way out of left field on that one, so avant garde.

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Originally Posted by origamikitsune

Neither do, except the rare occasion when my ISP actually glitches (maybe once or twice a week). I cannot say the same for a lot of the people I play with. Last night was a prime example. Two 34s lnc/arc + 25con fighting Unknown Soldier. Arc D/Cs. Con and I stalemate Soldier at 50% because of his drain attack. We can. Not. Win. We disengage. We re-invite. We were very lucky the other people camping Soldier were not paying attention and did not get claim.

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He repops every 5 minutes. I.Dont.See.The. Problem?

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Originally Posted by Lobo

Ok here's how to design around exploits using some common sense, k? People logging out in the middle of HNM battles to reset their hate? Remove the ability to log out during combat, WoW does it and so do most other MMOs. Player d/cs mid fight? As many have said before, allow them to come back automatically into the party, and fix your server instability issues. Here's another crazy idea, oh I don't know, maybe have a fairly active GM team that actually gives a fuck? I know, I know, way out of left field on that one, so avant garde.

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You can't log off in combat as it is, or leave the party.

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Originally Posted by Grundy

Yes it is, me and everyone else that plays this game. The fact that the BETA feedback information was completely ignored before final release cements this fact, how can you possible ague it doesn't? The fact is I reported a problem we had with their system, he replied referencing a cheat mechanic which had nothing to so with the original complaint - and the original complaint is a legitimate issue.

Had he worded it like:

"We understand your worries but the devs are concerned that this will be used for exploitative purposes and we cannot change it at this time. We still welcome any suggestions.."

Then I would have felt that my point had been taken on and not discarded out of hand. It's called Customer Service.

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Customer Service is helping you with a billing issue, not designing a game mechanic based on who-so-evers unique perspective and issues, least of all one that COULD be and WOULD be exploited if implemented. Your gaming experience !> than everyone else's.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Party members shouldn't be removed from the party when they disconnect in the first place.

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This is the proper solution to the problem. The development team did not state that they would not try and implement the above solution. They stated that they won't implement a solution adding party members while in combat.

All is not lost, fellow adventures. Please try and calm down.

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Originally Posted by Sorel

This is the proper solution to the problem. The development team did not state that they would not try and implement the above solution. They stated that they won't implement a solution adding party members while in combat.

All is not lost, fellow adventures. Please try and calm down.

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I agree with this statement. DCing seems to be the real issue and not being able to get back into the game right away.

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Originally Posted by Peregrine

The above person as in the naive concrete operational adolescent? Yeah. That's the point. You all aren't physically and developmentlly capable of understanding why the developers have made this decision. Your brains won't allow you to pick up what the devs are throwing down.

They're formal operational thinkers. They have grasped the reason and logic that dominates this discussion. Many of you all have not. You cannot get past the most direct conclusion of "I disconnected. I want back in the party. I should be able to get back in the party."

You don't understand, and actually *can't* understand any consequences of allowing you to. Again, concrete opertational though blocks mature logic and reason. You would rather every endgame fight be handled with thauma->archer->thauma rotations than to not be able to change jobs when you want. You would rather every fight's hate be handled primarily with log off->log on tactics.

You don't understand key features of the discussion. You probably can't. That's not bad. It just is what it is, and we have to develop in spite of your inabilities to understand why.

It's probably *the* most difficult problem with designing games for adolescents. They're freaking idiots.

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You're to busy fighting your "logic war" to actually think about the ability to re/invite members while fighting.

Currently In-game, you cannot leave party or log off while engaged in combat. You're issue seems to be with people that want 8 members in a party. Or those that reinvite d/c'd members.

...

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Originally Posted by DurtiMonkeyToe

He repops every 5 minutes. I.Dont.See.The. Problem?

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The problem is that we were fighting a hard battle, it took us 45 min, just the three of us. It was not easy. But we did not zerg it, we /faught/ it, and won. It was an example of people doing things, I hope, the way SE intended. Teamwork, tactics, victory. Granted, soldier is easy to claim. Soldier is common. But as it is, the game is designed in a way that in encourages people to over-kill just in case someone gets dropped. Personally, I would rather go in out-gunned, undermanned, and win (without zerging). Thats the fun stuff. And no one wants to do it because the system is such a pain in the arse.

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Originally Posted by origamikitsune

The problem is that we were fighting a hard battle, it took us 45 min, just the three of us. It was not easy. But we did not zerg it, we /faught/ it, and won. It was an example of people doing things, I hope, the way SE intended. Teamwork, tactics, victory. Granted, soldier is easy to claim. Soldier is common. But as it is, the game is designed in a way that in encourages people to over-kill just in case someone gets dropped. Personally, I would rather go in out-gunned, undermanned, and win (without zerging). Thats the fun stuff. And no one wants to do it because the system is such a pain in the arse.

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For you it is. Like I said before, I have no issues even during peek hours. I can't even remember the last time I was disconnected from the game.

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Originally Posted by Kam

You're to busy fighting your "logic war" to actually think about the ability to re/invite members while fighting.

Currently In-game, you cannot leave or log off while engaged in combat. You're Issue seems to be with people that want 8 members in a party. Or those that reinvite d/c'd members.

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None of that made any sense. It made no coherent point. It was just a random assortment of statements that don't even mean anything when strung together. What?

Do you not think that if they could easily reconnect a force DC player to a party, they would already have done so, because they already removed your LEGITIMATE ways of getting both out and into that party?

You all think your ideas are revolutions when they're the most innane, obvious things imaginable. YA THINK they didn't try?

If you "accidentally" disconnect from a party, they would keep you in that party if they could. That they don't is indication that they can't. Otherwise, DUH. They would. Because that's what they were obviously trying to do in the first place.

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Originally Posted by DurtiMonkeyToe

For you it is. Like I said before, I have no issues even during peek hours. I can't even remember the last time I was disconnected from the game.

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Alpha for me...

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Originally Posted by DurtiMonkeyToe

I agree with this statement. DCing seems to be the real issue and not being able to get back into the game right away.

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Right.

The cause of the pain is that when you DC you are dropped from party. If the Development Team addresses that, there is no need for further unbalancing "fixes".

However the case, it would also be nice if they can stabilize the connections to reduce the number of DC's to begin with, but that may be a much more time consuming problem to solve.

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Originally Posted by DurtiMonkeyToe

Customer Service is helping you with a billing issue, not designing a game mechanic based on who-so-evers unique perspective and issues, least of all one that COULD be and WOULD be exploited if implemented. Your gaming experience !> than everyone else's.

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No it isn't, customer service is helping a customer with a problem, which is one of the reasons these forums were implemented in the first instance. As a portal for us to inform SE via the forum representatives of issues that they can then take to the devs and then report back to us, it's a service they provide us.

You can troll my posts all you want mate, try reason next time.

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Originally Posted by Grundy

No it isn't, customer service is helping a customer with a problem, which is one of the reasons these forums were implemented in the first instance. As a portal for us to inform SE via the forum representatives of issues that they can then take to the devs and then report back to us, it's a service they provide us.

You can troll my posts all you want mate, try reason next time.

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Oh, I am plenty reasonable in the fact that I don't want a game breaking mechanic put in the game. Does there need to be a solution for DCs? Absolutely, but allowing people to join a group mid-combat is not it.

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Originally Posted by Peregrine

None of that made any sense. It made no coherent point. It was just a random assortment of statements that don't even mean anything when strung together. What?

Do you not think that if they could easily reconnect a force DC player to a party, they would already have done so, because they already removed your LEGITIMATE ways of getting both out and into that party?

You all think your ideas are revolutions when they're the most innane, obvious things imaginable. YA THINK they didn't try?

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You're telling me you have enough promise for XIV's future that people will be willing, as the system stands, to physically unplug their connection, or just flat out close the game for a d/c.

You might need it spelling out for you.

You cannot just /logoff like in XI. The system to force d/c, and turn such challenging battles into walk overs is not pragmatic, at all.

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Originally Posted by Kam

Currently In-game, you cannot leave party or log off while engaged in combat.

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It would have to be a very elaborate cycling of members. And since like people are saying, we're heading for instanced battles, reinvinting would be nice for then atleast....

There is no issue with simply allowing /pcmd while in combat. The only features it truly adds is being able to recover d/c'd members. And to be able to reach max party limit - Something which the content is designed around.

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Originally Posted by Kam

There is no issue with simply allowing /pcmd while in combat. The only features it truly adds is being able to recover d/c'd members. And to be able to reach max party limit - Something which the content is designed around.

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This is completely wrong. I can think of a handful of reasons you shouldn't be able to add anyone mid-combat just off the top of my head and that is without considering future content at all.

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Originally Posted by Kam

You're telling me you have enough promise for XIV's future that people will be willing, as the system stands, to physically unplug their connection, or just flat out close the game for a d/c.

You might need it spelling out for you.

You cannot just /logoff like in XI. The system to force d/c, and turn such challenging battles into walk overs is not pragmatic, at all.

There is no issue with simply allowing /pcmd while in combat. The only features it truly adds is being able to recover d/c'd members. And to be able to reach max party limit - Something which the content is designed around.

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^ the above contains far too much logic for Peregrine to comprehend.

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Originally Posted by DurtiMonkeyToe

This is completely wrong. I can't think of a handful of reasons you shouldn't be able to add nayone mid-combat just off the top of my head and that is without considering future content at all.

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The double negative turns your comment into something that agrees with what you just quoted... So what you're saying is that you're an idiot and continue arguing for no reason?

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Originally Posted by Kurokikaze

The double negative turns your comment into something that agrees with what you just quoted... So what you're saying is that you're an idiot and arguing for no reason?

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Calling people out on spelling. The true mark of a forum troll.

That was more of a freudian slip than a spelling error. Thanks for trying.

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Originally Posted by Kurokikaze

That was more of a freudian slip than a spelling error. Thanks for trying.

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Whatever helps you sleep at night.