Warriors - How to fix our damage mitigation

I just wanna say that Warriors are TANKS! Damage should not be the concern, survivability should. Making Warrior a High DPS/High Heals Required class means they won't be used for progression, only for fights that they out-gear/have on farm. That is not equal as far as tanking goes.

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Originally Posted by Amayasu

There's no talking to you, is there?

I'm in favour of Warrior buffs. I'm against expanding the cross-class toolset to include massively powerful abilities - these are what work to make classes unique. There are many options for mechanics and abilities that would massively compliment the Warrior's core mechanics while feeling unique. You've ignored them in favour of reiterating that Sentinel is cool.

Would having Sentinel make all of your problems disappear?

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I don't have any problems. >.>

I don't need Sentinel. I just would like WARs to stop whining about not having Damage mitigation like PLD and start mitigating damage like WAR.

Let go of Wrath V, you're not going to die.

Let go of huge pools of HP. You're not going to die.

Warrior - Offtank DPS/Main tank (CAN be effective as solely dps, but find a GOOD warrior to see that)

Role -Phase one - Wrangle up loose adds, drag to pally or destroy them...swap to dps mode, repeat. Phase two ( the "I finally get this class" phase) - Main tank

DPS output - not as high as other dps classes, but WAY more survivable...aka keeps a pally tanked run alive by being a pinch tank when the pally blows it. DPS is not to be scoffed at, nor is their ability to self heal THROUGH dps, boost defensive capabilities, stun or root enemies, or boost dps ...especially not when doing ALL of that at once. For a few precious seconds, a warrior can be nearly invulnerable...just enough time to save a run.

Tank Capability - As long as you aren't blowing two booster skills at once, you do fine save for the hardest runs. Rotate +defense, DPS heal, and stun for maximum effect. forget berserk as a tank as well. Damage mits arent that great of course, but the offset I see is increased dps on boss/mob, resulting in shorter fights. Forget keeping wrath V, let your healer stare at your hp bar...just be a warrior....run in, annoy the boss into submission, smash things, walk out.

Do what you can do best as a war, save the squishies (from everything the pally isn't spamming his one button at) with a giant axe, then use said axe on boss. When you learn to play the role better, then be the main tank.

Not to interrupt the lovely discussion going on, but...can someone point me towards a use for Holmgang? I've tried using it in multiple situations and I haven't found a use for it, yet.

I've tried using it as a sort of stun, such as delaying a boss' "phase change" movement by locking it in place for 6 seconds, but to no avail.

Perhaps I'm not thinking out of the box enough?

I love Ninja Turtles.

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Originally Posted by JormungandrVanagandr

Not to interrupt the lovely discussion going on, but...can someone point me towards a use for Holmgang? I've tried using it in multiple situations and I haven't found a use for it, yet.

I've tried using it as a sort of stun, such as delaying a boss' "phase change" movement by locking it in place for 6 seconds, but to no avail.

Perhaps I'm not thinking out of the box enough?

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I haven't tried it but maybe on fights where it's not a phase change but an aggro reset to give time to regrab threat, or maybe on those fights where the boss will chase a squishy to give them room. other than that no idea.

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Originally Posted by HiirNoivl

I don't have any problems. >.>

I don't need Sentinel. I just would like WARs to stop whining about not having Damage mitigation like PLD and start mitigating damage like WAR.

Let go of Wrath V, you're not going to die.

Let go of huge pools of HP. You're not going to die.

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You totally dont have a problem.

Except the kill shots on your FC page include 2 paladin tanks.

My point is again proven.

Quote Originally Posted by JormungandrVanagandr
Not to interrupt the lovely discussion going on, but...can someone point me towards a use for Holmgang? I've tried using it in multiple situations and I haven't found a use for it, yet.

I've tried using it as a sort of stun, such as delaying a boss' "phase change" movement by locking it in place for 6 seconds, but to no avail.

Perhaps I'm not thinking out of the box enough?





use holmgang when you lose aggro to a healer or dps class, or when those guys generate aggro first, it'll buy you time to lock it up. Also useful for locking a mob out of range of team mates just before a cast

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Originally Posted by Zanther

You totally dont have a problem.

Except the kill shots on your FC page include 2 paladin tanks.

My point is again proven.

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Your point is???

The fact is that FCs do have MT WARs in Coil.

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can someone point me towards a use for Holmgang? I've tried using it in multiple situations and I haven't found a use for it, yet.

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Marginally useful in fights where your target is not Bind-immune (example: Wanderer's Palace slime boss, you can use Holmgang when he fixates on another group member to stop him from moving).

Unfortunately, most of the stuff you will be tanking in FFXIV is Bind-immune, which, coupled with an absurdly long CD and the fact that it roots you in place as well makes this skill pretty much useless.

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Originally Posted by Xenobius

Marginally useful in fights where your target is not Bind-immune (example: Wanderer's Palace slime boss, you can use Holmgang when he fixates on another group member to stop him from moving).

Unfortunately, most of the stuff you will be tanking in FFXIV is Bind-immune, which, coupled with an absurdly long CD and the fact that it roots you in place as well makes this skill pretty much useless.

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For the main event(s) it's nearly useless, yes, for the entire run, no.

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Originally Posted by HiirNoivl

The fact is that FCs do have MT WARs in Coil.

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As I have said numerous times, there's a difference between "viable" and "balanced". Don't confuse the two. As it stands, WARs are viable, but WARs and PALs are not balanced: PALs are explicitly better.

Holmgang:

1) Stun target (6sec)
2) Run behind target and turn to face his back
3) Use Holmgang (6sec) just before stun wears
4) Continue beating said target while enjoying the 12sec in which you took no damage

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Originally Posted by HiirNoivl

Parse Results
FULL VIT STACK WITH VIT GEAR


So, I started out with 30 VIT stat Allocation and used your typical VIT and Parry tanking gear. I didn't want to prejudice the Parse at all by playing in a different play style than my STR set up so I tried to maximize my Self heals and Damage the best I could. I had an HP pool of 6861 with Defiance.

This is what I came up with for a 31 minute predictably-smelly DF run. No we didn't win.

I did my best with it. My self heals were pretty low: 876 for a low inner beast heal and 1878 for a high. My DPS? 71.88 with one parser and 76.29 with another... and that was with me actually trying to you know... DPS. That's really low. And it shows. I mean 876 for an Inner Beast is basically 0.1 of my total HP pool. Most of the time it was healing around 1100 or 1200 though but it did well with Crits that run. Inner Beast hit for an AVG of 415.30 or 1245.9 healed.

Another issue was hate. The Offtank PLD made a FLASH at the add to catch Chirada. Unfortunately, Garuda caught that too and off she went to wipe the party. She was literally gone in a flash. So my hate was pretty tenuous too. But I guess that's to be expected when my Enmity is through damage and I'm doing so little damage.

The healer was handling pretty much 100% of the weight. I healed about 4 percent of me and the healer did about 96 percent of everything... so let's try to change that.

STR 20 VIT 10

I switch back to STR 20 / VIT 10. Now I'm working with an HP pool of 6498 with Defiance... not that big of a difference. Let's make it bigger with a Peltast Ring instead of an HQ Amber ring and my HQ Darksteel melded Heavy Flanchard instead of a Darklight Heavy Flanchard. HP is now 6360. Now let's reset my Parsers and Try again. It was another DF 30 minute Lose Fest with some good results on the parser.

98.44 DPS for one and 96.31 with another this time. My highest Inner Beast healed for 2910 and my lowest Beast for 1035 On average it healed 1385.34. My healing climbed to 9.84 of healing done to myself, though the main healer was a bit spammy.

25 to 27 more DPS is nothing to Sniff at. 5 percent more healing isn't either.

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So, where's your 160 DPS ?
I dealt ~80 DPS on most boss when i had half AF1 half DL and an ifrit axe (and 30 vit), so now that i'm full DL/AF+1 with a bravura, still 30 vit, i'm pretty sure i'm over this super shiny 96 dps, while having 800 more HP.
And implying 20 STR gives you ~1140 more HP on IB is beyond ridiculous. That's ~330 more damage. Are you even serious ?
Now, going from bravura + DL to bravura +1 + AF+1, you gain 40 str, taking into account that with that gear, you can get a lot of STR from acc since you'll already have a lot of HP and parry rating seems pretty weak, that would be like, at least a +60 str total.
So, listening to you, will i get +3420 healing on IB ? (~1000 damage, yup yup yup) There's no cap right now with the gear we have, so that should be right, uh ? Damn, in 2 month I won't even need an healer, that's fcking great !
You should seriously stop lying, this is ridiculous.

Until the later turn in coil I don't think a well played WAR is that much (effectively) behind a PLD and most arm done come from WAR themselves crying to everyone they're shit. So, I'm with people claiming that's it's not that bad, but you're just saying nonsens right now.

PS : With my +30 vit I have NEVER had anyone taking aggro from me unless they went all retard and threw everything at the boss while I was positioning him. The only time I had a hard time (but did not lose it) was with a WHM constantly (really, not just during stomps) spaming medica II on Titan HM.
PPS : 6360 HP on a war is ridiculous for end game content

EDIT : Damn I'm late, had this tab open for hours eheh.

Hi

I am one of those rare warriors that have been through Binding Coil Turns 1 - 5.

http://www.synapse-guild.com/ <---evidence.

I like and enjoy playing a Warrior. However Warriors are just terrible tanks in comparison to Paladins.

Paladins simply mitigate much much MORE damage than warriors could ever dream of, they even have a 10 second divine shield.

A warrior can main tank BC for turns 1 - 3 if he wants but when they get to the elevator gauntlet in turn 4 they are forced into the offtank role. They cannot tank 2 Dreadnoughts or 4 adds of Soldiers/Knights, which is usually required in most strats.

Our other team's Warrior leveled a pally and everyone agrees that the elevator gauntlet is much easier with 2 pally tanks.

If your a Warrior interested in Binding Coil my advice is to level a pally to 50 and wait for them to fix Warriors.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

First off, WAR and PAL weapons both do the same amount of damage so there is no equipment disparity; it's all based off of abilities.

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This is 100% false
make two identical characters one warrior and one gladiator at lvl 1
Weathered Axe with 150 potency attack does 9-10 Damage
Weathered Sword with 150 potency attack does 6-7 Damage
tested on lvl 1 lady bug

Both have a physical damage of 5, so clearly the damage on weapons is not IDENTICAL or there would not be a 30% discrepancy, it seems damage is calculated based off the auto-attack damage when using abilities not the physical damage listed.

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Originally Posted by HiirNoivl

Parry won't do anything for Mitigation in the real stuff.

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Depends. Parries currently can only be done from the front. You could make parries omnidirectional for WAR through a trait or a unique mechanic introduced through the WAR soul crystal (derplander the WAR parried an attack coming from behind in the intro movie, by the way). There's also the matter of parry threshold (AKA the amount of damage parries mitigate) relative to parry proc rate. You could increase overall mitigation by increasing chances of parry procs while tuning the parry threshold to be in balance with PLD (factoring other stuff like WAR's higher HP and self heals).

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If you want to help WARs get to coil then they need to have Sentinel or something so that they can go easy mode like PLD and not have to rely so much on doing damage and self heals.

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Using the asinine "skill" argument is the wrong way to go about it. WAR can and should have exclusive mechanics that set it apart from the other members of the tank pool, but the key thing to remember is that it's a tank and there should be a boilerplate for tank design. I mentioned earlier in this thread that a baseline tank (regardless of name and weapon choice) should have a certain amount of mitigation baseline, with unique class mechanics working in tandem with that baseline mitigation to make the tank fuctional and viable in content.

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I have full faith that WAR can tank and efficiently kill just about anything in the hands of a player who understands it's strengths and weaknesses and in a party that understands how their own classes can mitigate damage for the tank and how to maximize their own DPS.

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As FFXI should have taught you, overt reliance on things outside of your own performance doesn't do much in the long run, and people will always flock for what is consistent and "easier". XI's skillchain system was intended to be complex in build-up with a large number of possibilities, yet the playerbase simplified it to "Distortion/Lv3 are the only skillchains in the game. If you open and close Distortion/Lv3 Light you're worthwhile, if you can't GTFO". Would you submit WAR to a similar fate for the sake of being 100% "unique"?

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There will be changes to WAR and maybe we'll get Rampart or Sentinel or something. But in the end that one fix isn't suddenly going to make WAR easy mode. You will have to learn to max damage and you will have to learn to max Self heal.

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My own take is sprinkle damage mitigation:

- On-demand damage shield (something similar to the blood shield mechanic but based on damage dealt by Inner Beast rather than damage self-healed)
- Add to Improved Foresight so that it is a straight out damage reduction cooldown for MRD/WAR only (have Improved Foresight turn Foresight into a -15% damage taken)
- Perhaps add a bit more mitigation from parries through a bigger parry threshold or increased parry procs
- Move the +healing to Defiance

There. MRD/WAR improvements that don't make it mechanically similar to PLD.

The fixing of the class is what we should all focus on and giving it more damage is not the reason. The gap between paladins survival and warriors survival needs to be closed. Yes this makes the classes virtually the same but then any of the two classes can participate in the run of Coil. The difference would be there play style and that's about it.

Here's a thought, something that has been bothering me for awhile now.

This thing...

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e1...ps1943150e.jpg

Why not make it an off hand item, that not only increases parry chance, but amount and since it's basically a spiked buckler add a little reflective damage from incoming melee attacks?

yes? no? drink more coffee before i post?

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Originally Posted by Kaalan

So, where's your 160 DPS ?

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It's 140... and it's in Amdapor Keep.

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Originally Posted by Kaalan

I dealt ~80 DPS on most boss when i had half AF1 half DL and an ifrit axe (and 30 vit), so now that i'm full DL/AF+1 with a bravura, still 30 vit, i'm pretty sure i'm over this super shiny 96 dps, while having 800 more HP.
And implying 20 STR gives you ~1140 more HP on IB is beyond ridiculous. That's ~330 more damage. Are you even serious ?

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Parse or it didn't happen. DPS on full VIT stack is terrible. I've tried it more than once. Never going back.

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Originally Posted by Kaalan

So, listening to you, will i get +3420 healing on IB ? (~1000 damage, yup yup yup) There's no cap right now with the gear we have, so that should be right, uh ? Damn, in 2 month I won't even need an healer, that's fcking great !
You should seriously stop lying, this is ridiculous.

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Probably actually. Inner Beast heals for 3x your damage. If you crit 1140 yeah you'll heal for that much. And yes, I can stay up on Garuda for about 30 seconds at my current level of gear with no healer. I can stay up for a full minute on Demon Wall after everyone dies. (by then they're screaming "Come on DIE already so we can start over) So yeah in 2 months maybe you will be soloing Demon Wall lol

But yeah if you're not Criting for higher than me for Inner Beast you're definitely doing something wrong. My second highest inner beast during my STR set up run was 2882.

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Originally Posted by Kaalan

With my +30 vit I have NEVER had anyone taking aggro from me unless they went all retard and threw everything at the boss while I was positioning him. The only time I had a hard time (but did not lose it) was with a WHM constantly (really, not just during stomps) spaming medica II on Titan HM.
PPS : 6360 HP on a war is ridiculous for end game content

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Yeah well, I guess I'm just a ridiculous WAR. And I've never cheated on my taxes. But a PLD could definitely take hate from me with an all VIT set up.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

As I have said numerous times, there's a difference between "viable" and "balanced". Don't confuse the two. As it stands, WARs are viable, but WARs and PALs are not balanced: PALs are explicitly better.

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They're not better, they're different. And that's why they're balanced. If you gave them damage mitigation like PLD they would then be unbalanced and people would swing to wanting to take WAR over PLD and the PLDs would cry foul.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

XI

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I never played XI

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Originally Posted by Bladeryk

Here's a thought, something that has been bothering me for awhile now.

This thing...

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e1...ps1943150e.jpg

Why not make it an off hand item, that not only increases parry chance, but amount and since it's basically a spiked buckler add a little reflective damage from incoming melee attacks?

yes? no? drink more coffee before i post?

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It's awesomeness plus one....

But the issue with that is if it did have a unique characteristic people would be forced to wear it over Coil drops.

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Originally Posted by Savish

This is 100% false
make two identical characters one warrior and one gladiator at lvl 1
Weathered Axe with 150 potency attack does 9-10 Damage
Weathered Sword with 150 potency attack does 6-7 Damage
tested on lvl 1 lady bug

Both have a physical damage of 5, so clearly the damage on weapons is not IDENTICAL or there would not be a 30% discrepancy, it seems damage is calculated based off the auto-attack damage when using abilities not the physical damage listed.

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You forgot weapon speed.

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Originally Posted by HiirNoivl

They're not better, they're different. And that's why they're balanced. If you gave them damage mitigation like PLD they would then be unbalanced and people would swing to wanting to take WAR over PLD and the PLDs would cry foul.

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PAL mitigates better; has the better emergency CD suite; deals just as much, if not more, damage; has the better utility package; and generates the most threat. How is PAL *not* better than WAR? The only thing WAR does better than PAL is tank in very low damage circumstances because it can self-heal.

The math has been done over and over. There isn't anything that the WAR does better than the PAL. Honestly, are you even paying attention?

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Originally Posted by Kitru

How is PAL *not* better than WAR?

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No way does it even approach the DMG of a competent WAR or or mitigate damage better. At most it's equal. If I'm on PLD and my healer is preoccupied with something, and my health is dropping? What do I have, oh yeah Hallowed Ground. That's really it. At least on WAR I can heal myself efficiently until I get some attention again.

The only thing I really envy PLDs on is their debuff arsenal. All I get is Stun every 30 seconds and Bind and then I'm bound too so there's just no escape. PLD has silence and Blind and stun and even Pacification... but if I use Berserk who's pacified? ME! It's just not fair I tell ya.

But yeah PLD damage mitigation is just overblown. They're entirely dependent on healers to keep them up, they can't really assist in the fight because their mitigation does no damage at all. They're truly hate holding turtles and that's great... so long as your DPS is nice and they can kill the mob before it goes Enraged and then there's nothing anyone can do.

WAR's mitigation? Death. At that point, the WAR is taking 0 damage at all.

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Originally Posted by Savish

This is 100% false

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Are you sure it wasn't a crit, because that's a 50% difference in damage dealt. There's also the fact that there is a lot of variability in damage dealt. The listed weapon damage is an average, not a flat quantity.

If what you're saying were true, there wouldn't be any point to looking at a weapon's baseline damage. The only thing that would matter would be auto-attack damage.

I just went out and tested on my own character against level 1 ladybugs. All gear except for the weapon was the same. Tank stances were not used. Using an Axe with damage of 39 and auto-attack of 44.72, I was dealing ~135 damage with Heavy Swing and ~100 with my autoattack. Using a Sword with damage of 30 and auto-attack of 20.8, I was dealing ~100 damage with Fast Blade and ~50 with my auto-attack.

Both Fast Blade and Heavy Blade have a potency of 150. If what you're saying were true, the ratio between the special attacks and auto-attacks would be the same: the ratio of the auto-attacks is ~2:1 whereas the ratio of special attack damage is ~4:3. The ratios are most definitely *not*. In fact, the ratio between the baseline weapon damage and the special attack damage of the two weapons is effectively the same: the two weapons had a ratio of ~4:3 for their baseline damage and ~4:3 for their special attack damage.

As such, special attacks use weapon damage, not auto-attack damage. You may want to use a sample size larger than 1 before you go trying to correct someone.

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Originally Posted by HiirNoivl

If I'm on PLD and my healer is preoccupied with something, and my health is dropping? What do I have, oh yeah Hallowed Ground. That's really it. At least on WAR I can heal myself efficiently until I get some attention again.

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So you're saying that the only time that a WAR has any advantage over a PAL is if the healer is completely and utterly ignoring the tank? That sounds a lot like soloing. It also sounds like complete and utter bullshit for any kind of tanking situation because any time that mitigation would actually *matter*, you expect to have a healer around to actually pop you back up. Arguing that WAR somehow has an advantage thanks to selfheals that don't even actually provide a real mitigation advantage of any kind is just naive. You're specifically trying to concoct a scenario where a WAR has an advantage when that scenario only occurs when someone screws up massively or you specifically try to put yourself in that situation.

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But yeah PLD damage mitigation is just overblown.

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Except that it's not. PAL mitigation is exactly what it is. WAR self healing is what gets drastically overblown. Yes, it's nice, but it in no way makes up for the 8.7% increased external healing requirements and lack of a shield. PLD simply requires less external healing than a WAR does. It's not even up for debate. The only reason you'd still be hanging on to this is if you somehow want to alter reality to accommodate your preconceived notions rather than changing your viewpoint to account for reality. At that point, you're not interested in the truth; you're interested in spreading your own delusions.

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WAR's mitigation? Death. At that point, the WAR is taking 0 damage at all.

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Except that, based upon both math that's been done several times and your own admission earlier in this very post that I'm quoting, PAL and WAR have the exact same damage. Unless you want to claim that somehow stuff dies faster to a WAR than a PAL for reasons *other* than damage dealt (maybe they deal damage to themselves out of pity?), you're making no sense *whatsoever*. You can't even maintain internal logic within your *own posts*.

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Originally Posted by JormungandrVanagandr

Not to interrupt the lovely discussion going on, but...can someone point me towards a use for Holmgang? I've tried using it in multiple situations and I haven't found a use for it, yet.

I've tried using it as a sort of stun, such as delaying a boss' "phase change" movement by locking it in place for 6 seconds, but to no avail.

Perhaps I'm not thinking out of the box enough?

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I use it on the second boss of Wanderer's Palace if someone is about to get caught....that's about it.

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Originally Posted by JormungandrVanagandr

Not to interrupt the lovely discussion going on, but...can someone point me towards a use for Holmgang? I've tried using it in multiple situations and I haven't found a use for it, yet.

I've tried using it as a sort of stun, such as delaying a boss' "phase change" movement by locking it in place for 6 seconds, but to no avail.

Perhaps I'm not thinking out of the box enough?

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The second boss of ST after the crystal dies to keep him off his rampage for a few seconds, also it is going to be an amazing tool once PVP is implemented

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Originally Posted by Kitru

PAL deals just as much, if not more, damage [than WAR]

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Bahahahaha, trolololin away as usual Kitru.

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Originally Posted by Jahaudant

Bahahahaha, trolololin away as usual Kitru.

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You know, it's been shown several times. Saying I'm trolling when the math says I'm telling the explicit truth just makes you look like an idiot. Just because some people who just went with a gut feeling instead of math said that WAR deals more damage (likely based upon just looking at Maim's 20% buff and the fact that WAR uses a giant axe) and you continue to parrot it, doesn't mean you're right. The analysis is pretty apparent.

Kindly forward me to this analysis.

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Originally Posted by Jahaudant

Kindly forward me to this analysis.

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It's in this very thread. Not like it's hard to find.

Looking through 16 pages of "WAR cant do anything, signed Kitru" doesn't rank highly on my to-do list.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

So you're saying that the only time that a WAR has any advantage over a PAL is if the healer is completely and utterly ignoring the tank? That sounds a lot like soloing. It also sounds like complete and utter bullshit for any kind of tanking situation because any time that mitigation would actually *matter*, you expect to have a healer around to actually pop you back up. Arguing that WAR somehow has an advantage thanks to selfheals that don't even actually provide a real mitigation advantage of any kind is just naive. You're specifically trying to concoct a scenario where a WAR has an advantage when that scenario only occurs when someone screws up massively or you specifically try to put yourself in that situation.

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This is what I don't understand about this discussion. The only time I've been one shotted as a WAR have been in situations where I would have been one shotted as a PLD. (Barring Hallowed Ground of course) The amount of damage that you guys say that PLD can take with no problems is way overrated. Even with Rampart and Sentinel and a Shield, I have no recourse but to put up my shield and pray that my WHM is ready. At least with WAR, I know that even if my WHM is NOT ready, it's not the end of the world, I'll just heal myself.

As a PLD, if a WHM is not ready to heal me, I'm dead in the next shot. I have less HP and even with mitigation there's no second chance if for some reason the healers are interrupted. It happens frequently in tanking situations and that's why I like WAR so much. So what if I just took a big hit? I heal for half of it. If I take another hit, I'll heal that as well. I have the same survivability as a PLD, plus more damage.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

Except that it's not. PAL mitigation is exactly what it is. WAR self healing is what gets drastically overblown. Yes, it's nice, but it in no way makes up for the 8.7% increased external healing requirements and lack of a shield. PLD simply requires less external healing than a WAR does. It's not even up for debate. The only reason you'd still be hanging on to this is if you somehow want to alter reality to accommodate your preconceived notions rather than changing your viewpoint to account for reality. At that point, you're not interested in the truth; you're interested in spreading your own delusions.

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That Shield only blocks some damage. WAR heals all damage. If anything relying on your shield to help you only helps some of the time. If you want increased block rate, your block effectiveness on your shield goes down a lot. If you want more effective blocks, than your block rate goes down a lot. Whereas, my Axe will heal for a lot in every circumstance so long as its buffed by abilities that should always be on cooldown.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

Except that, based upon both math that's been done several times and your own admission earlier in this very post that I'm quoting, PAL and WAR have the exact same damage. Unless you want to claim that somehow stuff dies faster to a WAR than a PAL for reasons *other* than damage dealt (maybe they deal damage to themselves out of pity?), you're making no sense *whatsoever*. You can't even maintain internal logic within your *own posts*.

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Theorycrafting is just that theory. Your math doesn't pan out in my reality. In my reality, my Inner Beast heals for way more and way more often than your math. For me, I play in real time, I see real results.

If it doesn't match your math, that's not my problem is it?

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Originally Posted by Jahaudant

Looking through 16 pages of "WAR cant do anything, signed Kitru" doesn't rank highly on my to-do list.

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lol man you looks so retarded judging from this reply :)

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Originally Posted by Jahaudant

Looking through 16 pages of "WAR cant do anything, signed Kitru" doesn't rank highly on my to-do list.

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This is like...the textbook definition of a strawman argument.

Bravo.

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Originally Posted by Jahaudant

Looking through 16 pages of "WAR cant do anything, signed Kitru" doesn't rank highly on my to-do list.

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Page 5, middle.

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Originally Posted by HiirNoivl

This is what I don't understand about this discussion. The only time I've been one shotted as a WAR have been in situations where I would have been one shotted as a PLD.

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Actually, by saying this, it's pretty apparently that you just don't understand the discussion at all. PLD *doesn't* have a one-shot disparity with WAR. 25% increased max hp is effectively the same as the 20% decrease in damage taken that a PLD gets. Any attack that one shots one will one shot the other. All damage against either of them amounts to the same percentage of max hp lost. The disparity is in the amount of external healing required (which you seem to be incapable of actually understanding). WAR self heals do not make up for the 8.7% disparity in healing required and, comically enough, that actually stands up in both practice *and* theory. I wonder why...

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So what if I just took a big hit? I heal for half of it. If I take another hit, I'll heal that as well.

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Except that you won't. You'd recover *maybe* half to one-third of the damage, assuming you get a crit *and* you have multiple DPS CDs active, by using Inner Beast. You'd then have to burn Infuriate to prevent yourself from losing the 15% +healing that is effectively required as a WAR. For the second hit, you'd burn Inner Beast again, for the same amount, once again recovering either half to one-third of said hit, but then you'd be out of those self healing resources and require 15% more healing than a PLD while not being able to do the same thing for another 90 seconds (because you have to wait until you get a DPS cd up again in order to get anywhere near decent heals with Inner Beast). You're shooting yourself in the foot time and time again, which is the *problem* with the self heals that you constantly bring up as if they were the panacea for every situation. They're not because you simply don't have them *often* enough.

Your entire argument is that WAR is great when your healer is an idiot and the tank isn't getting any heals for an extended period of time. Why the hell would you *ever* need to argue that? You might as well just say that tanks are supposed to be entirely self-sufficient and that healers exist only to provide raid healing.

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I have the same survivability as a PLD, plus more damage.

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Except that you don't have more damage. Seriously. We've gone over this. A WAR, properly played, has no better damage than a PAL, properly played. The fact that you don't have PALs using Fight or Flight like they're supposed to is the fault of the player, not the class, and acting as if balance were designed around players being idiots rather than having reasonable level of competency is simply naive.

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That Shield only blocks some damage. WAR heals all damage.

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And not taking damage is better than healing damage. It's a trade off.

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Whereas, my Axe will heal for a lot in every circumstance so long as its buffed by abilities that should always be on cooldown.

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Except that, even if you're using said abilities that buff Inner Beast on CD, you're never going to have 100% uptime. Inner Beast is only an effect self-heal every 60-90 seconds. A Shield is effective *at all times*. Uptime matters.

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Your math doesn't pan out in my reality.

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Your reality is colored entirely by your own preconceived notions. You act as if Inner Beast is *always* up and *always* heals for 25% of your max hp. It isn't. It's up, at that level, once every 90 seconds. It's up at a pitiful level once every 20 seconds.

You're entirely incapable of understanding the theory because you're completely incapable of actually looking at reality without altering it to fit your own views. You're not going to be the one that notices whether you require more healing or not and, as such, you're completely ignorant of any difference in performance. You only pay attention to your own damage and, as such, have no idea what you're comparing your own damage to in order to make an educated assessment of comparative performance. You just say "I WAR! I tank good! I heal self! I break things!" without having *any* ability to actually make a comparative assessment.

You can talk about WAR all you want but, if you want to compare PLD to WAR, which is what's is being done here because balance is a comparative assessment, you've readily demonstrated that you're completely unprepared to do so. Your entire argument is that WAR is a viable class to run through content. Yes, it is. You'll not find me arguing against that. The error you make is in extrapolating "viable" into "balanced", which is completely and totally facetious.

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The disparity is in the amount of external healing required (which you seem to be incapable of actually understanding).

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That is an issue related directly with VIT stacking.

how many heals does it take to fill the HP of a PLD with 5500 HP when he gets hit with something that hits him? Once.

How many heals does it take to fill the HP of a VIT Stacked, STR starved WAR that has 8000 when he gets hit with the same thing and cures himself? Infinity plus 1!

The urge to heal and heal and heal on WAR comes from the fact that WARs are not self curing for enough when they have a huge pool of HP.

Vitality stacking, without STR supplementing, puts the weight of the mitigation on the WHMs. Which is the wrong thing to do. When you have a smaller pool of HP, your self cures cure for a higher percentage of your HP and your WHM only has to spend 1 cure to fill you up.

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Except that you won't. You'd recover *maybe* half to one-third of the damage, assuming you get a crit *and* you have multiple DPS CDs active, by using Inner Beast.

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I Crit a lot. Critical Hit Rate Materia and Accessories increase my Critical Hit Rate by a measure unseen in other classes simply by virtue of the bonuses granted by Wrath and Defiance. Even when i don't try, when I parse I get a regular 15% critical hit rate. You'd think that I would only get that much by keeping Wrath V up on a constant basis and having Internal Release up on a constant basis. But the reality is, I only use Internal Release if Berserk is down and I don't hold Wrath V. Even the calculator over at Dancing Mad says that I should have 11% Critical Hit Rate at a maximum! So why is my Critical Hit rate so high? Why is it not Less than 10%? Hiir Noivl does not hold on the Wrath V. She doesn't use her Internal Release a whole lot. So what gives?

I'll leave that for you brainier people to figure out.

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Except that, even if you're using said abilities that buff Inner Beast on CD, you're never going to have 100% uptime. Inner Beast is only an effect self-heal every 60-90 seconds. A Shield is effective *at all times*. Uptime matters.

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That's weird because I'm clocked to hit Wrath V every 12-15 seconds... But I must own some sort of Time machine. I'm curious as to what your definition of an "effective" self heal is. As far as I'm concerned, if it lands, it's effective at curing me to from 1100 to 2900. At what point do those numbers become ineffective?

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Originally Posted by Jahaudant

Kindly forward me to this analysis.

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Here is mine. But I have WAR slightly higher because I wasn't counting Storm's Eye for the PLD.

http://www.reddit.com/r/FFXIVTC/comm...dps_pld_v_war/

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Originally Posted by Savish

This is 100% false
make two identical characters one warrior and one gladiator at lvl 1
Weathered Axe with 150 potency attack does 9-10 Damage
Weathered Sword with 150 potency attack does 6-7 Damage
tested on lvl 1 lady bug

Both have a physical damage of 5, so clearly the damage on weapons is not IDENTICAL or there would not be a 30% discrepancy, it seems damage is calculated based off the auto-attack damage when using abilities not the physical damage listed.

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These numbers are right, but the analysis is not right. IIRC the Class starts out with a 1-2 attack power difference, and I can't remember if they have different determination.

You can see it's not true that damage is calculated off of weapon attack by using a high level character and doing the math.

A 150 potency attack is going to be 1.5 * your "base" damage. So to get an estimate of your auto attack damage, divide your Fast Blade damage / 1.5. Then multiply it by the normalization factor: Weapon speed / 3. This will return your auto attack damage, or a reasonable estimate. This sort of works for lvl 1 characters but doesn't work great because their dmg is so low. Fast Blade = 7 dmg / 1.5 * 2 / 3 = 3.1 or 6/1.5 * 2/3 = 2.6. This returns your auto attack damage.

If potency attacks were modifying your auto attack damage without normalization, these formulas wouldn't work, and the damage would be different.

I think this pretty well proves that damage is normalized.

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Originally Posted by HiirNoivl

That is an issue related directly with VIT stacking.

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No, it's not. It's an issue directly related to Defiance. Defiance provides only 15% +healing. Inner Beast, even when used optimally along with all of a WAR's other self healing, only effectively break even with 15%. The fact that WAR only gets 15% +healing means that there is an 8.7% required healing disparity.

You've yet to prove that Inner Beast provides *any* more than a break even, over time, with 5 stacks Defiance. In fact, there's a *lot* of evidence that shows that, over time, it's a net loss. To actually be equal with a PLD, a WAR would need to be able to generate more 9% of the total output of the healers in your group on a constant basis *on top of what is already accomplished with Inner Beast and Bloodbath*: the existing 9% would be required to equalize the 15% +healing with the 25% needed and the additional quantity on top of that is required to break even with block chance.