Monks very weak. Need rebalance

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Originally Posted by Rapiso

But I think nobody plays this game for his future PVP ...

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Speak for yourself. PvP is the only reason I stick around with MMOs after going through the story. Same thing I did with WoW I plan on doing here so I'm banking on the fact that PvP will be fun in this game. It's also why I stopped playing my DRG after hitting 50 and started WAR. As good as I think DRG is going to be in PvP, I think Warrior will be that much better.

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Originally Posted by Rapiso

Monk is totally fine in PVE.

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Sweet dreams

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Originally Posted by Onyxys

PvE need balance too, dont you think so? Must be balance, no matter PvE or PvP game is

As for my thought- lancer's Impulse Drive much more better, than pugilist's True Strike. If GL will be more than 12 seconds no one will use True Strike. Is it right, that class skill is not so good, as cross-class skill?

Shoulder Tackle must have lower CD and must give 3-stack GL buff. In that case it would be a good begining of the fight

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Impulse Drive doesn't advance Monk stances though, which makes True Strike far and away a better option if you're having issues fitting ID in.

Why monk worked in FF11:

- high hp
- high evasion
- high counterattack rate
- super fast auto attack
- double attacks and kick attacks

We have none of the above now. Even the evasion rate isnt that great. We are squishy as a tomato and unless we hit for truck ton of damage, we are going to get owned in PvP.

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Originally Posted by Onyxys

Yes. A million little damage pricks, which marauder or lancer can do in one blow and they doesnt need to stack any buffs- just hit and no problem. And they dont need to "dance" around enemy- 3 hit lancer combo is the best thing. Monk doest have any good AoE and have little solo-damage. When arena will be open you will see what "trash" are monks

As for DPS, if you set your rotation right, you can be critting/ attacking for 200+-300+ each hit
Dont be funny. Each hit)))

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DRG actually do need to stack buffs to hit high, Heavy Thrust, Disembowel, Life Surge (whatever its called), Blood for Blood, i need all those to get a sure 800 crit on top of being in the 3rd part of my potency rotation.

and to get heavy thrust and disembowel we do have to dance around enemies, play the class..

For end game content, Monk doesn't really need a lot of adjustments.

Currently, the ones that stand out:

- Grease Lightning needs to be expanded to 20s, or losing Grease Lightning in steps . Another way of dealing with this is adjusting the cooldown for Perfect Balance into a 1 minute cooldown.
- Shoulder tackle cooldown is too long. Ideally it should be on a 1 min cooldown tops. The other possibility being that Fist of Wind getting a major buff.
- Howling fist animation is too long and does not feel off the timer.

Our evasion rate should also be bumped up. Especially for PvP.

Of course, I am also assuming that range attacks are getting a nerf. All melee attacks have stance requirements to get the maximum potential. Range attacks, however, do not. Despite the fact that range attacks are way safer than melee attacks?

Pugilist enemies have Haste, but we dont :/

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Originally Posted by Onyxys

PvE need balance too, dont you think so? Must be balance, no matter PvE or PvP game is

As for my thought- lancer's Impulse Drive much more better, than pugilist's True Strike. If GL will be more than 12 seconds no one will use True Strike. Is it right, that class skill is not so good, as cross-class skill?

Shoulder Tackle must have lower CD and must give 3-stack GL buff. In that case it would be a good begining of the fight

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True strike shouldn't even be in your rotation. Please, if you're bad and dont know your optimal rotation don't go and try to break a class.

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Originally Posted by Onyxys

Sweet dreams

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Learn to play :)

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Originally Posted by Rapiso

Learn to play :)

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You need learn how to do comparison and make judgement. If you can not put facts on table, nobody care what you say.

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Originally Posted by DuferBloodmoon

True strike shouldn't even be in your rotation. Please, if you're bad and dont know your optimal rotation don't go and try to break a class.

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Please explain what is better.

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Originally Posted by Xell

Please explain what is better.

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Well its debateable if its ever better than twin snakes. Depends on your rotation. I think 2 twin snake buffed twin snakes do more damage than a buffed true strike and an unbuffed twin snake.
You can get both buffed with a low GCD but if you throw in a ToD or a fracture or get pushed away from a boss for half a second you have to go back a 2 twin snake rotation and it just makes things messy.
Personally i just use it nearly as a utility skill like the magic dispel one. The extra crit chance is nice if you need to burst something down fast.
It makes life easier having one lessy thing to worry about or track and it makes your rotation a bit more flexible.

@Caid

Ahh I see. Yeah, when you throw in those extra skills Double Twin Snakes wins out.

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Originally Posted by Rainsworth

They just need to increase the buff duration of greased lightning, that's it.

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This. They need to increase GL to at least 18secs almost every thing in this game involves some type of adds. Most of the time it is very hard to keep it up because you have to run and catch an add or someone decides to kite it (AK last boss adds). When on single target mobs its pretty easy to keep up, so asking for an extra 6 seconds shouldn't hurt anything. The best we can hope for is that when a level cap increase comes we get a skill that will increase it. Say we get GL4 but in order for the extra time you will need GL3 1st, So you wont be able to go something like Bootshine> Twin Snakes> New skill for GL4. Cause they way it sits now when I do my rotations I can toss in two Impulse Drives and they can crit hit for close to 600 with GL3 up, If I GL was 30sec I think that would be to much cause then I could just spam ID's.

What's this about a double Twin Strikes anyway? In most occasions with all the dots and/or impulse drive you probably need to refresh Twin Strikes anyway but if there was an occasion where I didn't need to buff Twin Strikes, I would use True Strike. Twin Strike buff will still make Twin Strike a 140 potency attack vs a 150 potency True Strike. Cut it out for simplicity's sake but don't say it does more damage cause it clearly doesn't.

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Originally Posted by Esmian

What's this about a double Twin Strikes anyway? In most occasions with all the dots and/or impulse drive you probably need to refresh Twin Strikes anyway but if there was an occasion where I didn't need to buff Twin Strikes, I would use True Strike. Twin Strike buff will still make Twin Strike a 140 potency attack vs a 150 potency True Strike. Cut it out for simplicity's sake but don't say it does more damage cause it clearly doesn't.

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Well obviously if your in a position to take advantage of the extra potency then do.
What im saying is using it every second rotation is probably a mistake.
2 140 attacks buffed by 10% give a 308 potency attack. A 150 attack buffed by 10% and an unbuffed 140 attack give a 305 potency attack.
The extra crit chance will more than likely make up for it actually ... so yeah nvm.
Difference is marginal all the same and using the extra twin snakes time to take advantage of ID would seem like an option to me

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Originally Posted by Onyxys

Yes. A million little damage pricks, which marauder or lancer can do in one blow and they doesnt need to stack any buffs- just hit and no problem. And they dont need to "dance" around enemy- 3 hit lancer combo is the best thing. Monk doest have any good AoE and have little solo-damage. When arena will be open you will see what "trash" are monks

As for DPS, if you set your rotation right, you can be critting/ attacking for 200+-300+ each hit
Dont be funny. Each hit)))

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2 hits of 350 in the time it takes a dragoon to do 1 hit of 700 is the same DPS.

PVE and PVP DPS are different. The raw DPS numbers are king in PvE, but in PvP, the burst will win out. You are only right about monks being bad in PvP. A "good" monk in PvE will be near the top of the charts. So l2p.

While you end-game number crunchers have your own debate I'll simply say that levelling is the single most painful dps class experience I've ever played in any MMO.

Which dumbass thought that directional mechanics was workable for solo play? Yes I'm aware that it's the first x% time on the character only... but I'm just so hacked off seeing other classes faceroll being jumped by 3 mobs in a storyline quest and walking away in less time and with more health. Yes I'm aware of how to play and hit each and every ability in the region for most damage too, if possible.

Chalk me down as in the camp that thinks this class needs a major rework, at least from a levelling perspective.

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Originally Posted by DuferBloodmoon

True strike shouldn't even be in your rotation. Please, if you're bad and dont know your optimal rotation don't go and try to break a class.

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Dont вe stupid please, or I need to teach you how to fight by monk? Good monk always use Twin Snakes-True Strike and so on to maximaze the damage and hold 10% damage buff. Didnt you know that? And if GL will become longer than 12 sec. no good monk will use True strike, but the using of Impulse drive will be possible in monk's combos (just use your mind and you will know how). So I repeat- skill True strike must be rebalanced to

It seems to me that all that needs done is an increase on GL to 20 secs. And reduce cooldown on shoulder as well as make it usable from 10 yards and in not just ten yards. Or keep the cool down change the range and make it grant a stack of gl.

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2 140 attacks buffed by 10% give a 308 potency attack. A 150 attack buffed by 10% and an unbuffed 140 attack give a 305 potency attack.

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There's no reason your true strike shouldn't be buffed by twin snakes too. There's no reason to clip the buff by so much that you use it every cycle, you should be using true strike and impulse drive whilst maintaining the +10% damage buff at all times(fight permitting).

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Originally Posted by Valsh

There's no reason your true strike shouldn't be buffed by twin snakes too. There's no reason to clip the buff by so much that you use it every cycle, you should be using true strike and impulse drive whilst maintaining the +10% damage buff at all times(fight permitting).

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You're micro managing something that isn't worth micro managing. A real fight for your life isn't punching a training dummy.

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

You're micro managing something that isn't worth micro managing. A real fight for your life isn't punching a training dummy.

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Can you offer a compelling reason as to why you shouldn't min/max other than "you might die". Doesn't really cut it i'm afraid. If you have to stick to a steady eddy flanking rotation for entire fights then more power to you, but that shouldn't remove playing properly as an option. It's not hard to dynamically adjust per and mid fight.

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Originally Posted by Valsh

There's no reason your true strike shouldn't be buffed by twin snakes too. There's no reason to clip the buff by so much that you use it every cycle, you should be using true strike and impulse drive whilst maintaining the +10% damage buff at all times(fight permitting).

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Your point probably still stands, but their calculation had true strike buffed. Their assumption was that when you alternate twin snakes and true strike, the next twin snakes would not be buffed by 10%.
This has happened to me every time (even on tank and spank). The twin snakes buff drops just before the next twin snake (when alternating), meaning every other twin isn't buffed.
I say your point still stands since I'm still leveling so I only have GL2. But I'm pretty sure that was their point on potency.

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Originally Posted by Allyrion

Your point probably still stands, but their calculation had true strike buffed. Their assumption was that when you alternate twin snakes and true strike, the next twin snakes would not be buffed by 10%.
This has happened to me every time (even on tank and spank). The twin snakes buff drops just before the next twin snake (when alternating), meaning every other twin isn't buffed.
I say your point still stands since I'm still leveling so I only have GL2. But I'm pretty sure that was their point on potency.

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This, True strike is optimal only if you have ~490+ skill speed

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Originally Posted by Onyxys

Dont вe stupid please, or I need to teach you how to fight by monk? Good monk always use Twin Snakes-True Strike and so on to maximaze the damage and hold 10% damage buff. Didnt you know that? And if GL will become longer than 12 sec. no good monk will use True strike, but the using of Impulse drive will be possible in monk's combos (just use your mind and you will know how). So I repeat- skill True strike must be rebalanced to

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Don't come and try to ruin games because of your low player skill. We don't need more watered down games like how WoW turned out. Read all my posts on here, I've shown a Damage screencap of a mnk who doesnt use true strike. Seriously, step your game up, cause it's lacking.

They pull good DPS, their positional moves can be annoying at times and losing the GL stacks a pain, but it is designed to be that way to slow them down to ramp back up. Even with that happening, they pull amazing DPS and are not gimped by any means.

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Originally Posted by Allyrion

Your point probably still stands, but their calculation had true strike buffed. Their assumption was that when you alternate twin snakes and true strike, the next twin snakes would not be buffed by 10%.
This has happened to me every time (even on tank and spank). The twin snakes buff drops just before the next twin snake (when alternating), meaning every other twin isn't buffed.

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Not right. Twin Snake buff= 12 sec. Now look: First Twin Snake (point ZERO) than 2.10+2.10+2.10+2.10 than again Twin Snake. You can hold Twin Snake buff without problems under GL buff for skill speed

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Originally Posted by Onyxys

Not right. Twin Snake buff= 12 sec. Now look: First Twin Snake (point ZERO) than 2.10+2.10+2.10+2.10 than again Twin Snake. You can hold Twin Snake buff without problems under GL buff for skill speed

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Twin snake - 2.1s - demolish - 2.1s - Bootshine - 2.1 - true strike - 2.1s - snap puch - 2.1s - dragon kick - 2.1s - twin snakes

6 gcds, not 4.

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Originally Posted by Allyrion

Twin snake - 2.1s - demolish - 2.1s - Bootshine - 2.1 - true strike - 2.1s - snap puch - 2.1s - dragon kick - 2.1s - twin snakes

6 gcds, not 4.

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Twin Snake, than: Demolish, Dragon Kick, True Strike, Snap Punch, Bootshine, than True STrike again. Yes, I mistaked- 5 skills, but 5*2.10= 10.50. 1.1 second enough to keep Twin Snake buff alive

Easiest fix for the entire MNK class is to make GL not stack. If you gained GL1 at lvl 15 GL2 at 35 and GL3 at 50 you can just have 1 stack needed. So at 50 you still get the 21% dmg and 15% atk speed buff you just only have to complete your rotation once to get max benefit from it. This would make it work the same as every other class in the game. It would also keep your dps from being absolute crap for 15 sec while you stack it up. A lot of the fights you have to break off the boss to avoid something or go after an add right as you get GL3 up. Changing up this alone would be a huge QOL fix that wouldn't buff the class at all but still keep the core of it the same.

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Originally Posted by Onyxys

Twin Snake, than: Demolish, Dragon Kick, True Strike, Snap Punch, Bootshine, than Twin Snakes again. Yes, I mistaked- 5 skills, but 5*2.10= 10.50. 1.1 second enough to keep Twin Snake buff alive

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Lol no, you forgot to count the first twin snake, it's not off gcd :)

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Originally Posted by Rapiso

Lol no, you forgot to count the first twin snake, it's not off gcd :)

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Agree. I checked and now I realy see my mistake- there is no time to hold Twin Snakes buff if use such rotation. It is very sad. It meens, that True Strike need to be abandoned as an useless skill, I think, until it rebalance. I hope it will happen

i want the abilities we had for the l50 quest....

the projectile .. wavefist?

and open the seventh chakra buff with a relatively long cd.

also can greased lightning please last longer... everytime a boss leaves a fight for a seconds its gone....

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Originally Posted by Onyxys

Agree. I checked and now I realy see my mistake- there is no time to hold Twin Snakes buff if use such rotation. It is very sad. It meens, that True Strike need to be abandoned as an useless skill, I think, until it rebalance. I hope it will happen

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it's not useless, in fact a True strike without the +10% dmg buff deal nearly the same damage as a buffed twin snake (because of the 5% crit bonus).
The problem is, if you hit with an auto attack when the TS buff is down, you're clearly in negative.
If you have a 2s GCD or less (~490skillspeed), you can keep TS buff while using true strike, which mean a slight increased DPS.
But you're "locked" for 6 GCD so you need to know when to use it and when you can't (refresh tod, fracture).

Still find this post hilarious. pulled 198 dps on turn2. Setup was DRG, BRD, MNK (me) and SMN. Also we had everyone in our Rot rotation so i had to run it to our ranged. Cant say if 198 is hight but i was top and our DRG used LB. Can do about +230-240 if i dont have to be in Rot rotation but then i end up pulling aggro from tanks.

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Originally Posted by Rapiso

it's not useless, in fact a True strike without the +10% dmg buff deal nearly the same damage as a buffed twin snake (because of the 5% crit bonus).
The problem is, if you hit with an auto attack when the TS buff is down, you're clearly in negative.
If you have a 2s GCD or less (~490skillspeed), you can keep TS buff while using true strike, which mean a slight increased DPS.
But you're "locked" for 6 GCD so you need to know when to use it and when you can't (refresh tod, fracture).

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Hm... I dont know what rotation you use, but Im talking about my rotation, when the first using of TS makes buff, but I dont have just 2 seconds to use TS again and refresh TS buff. No, I use TS, but buff from the first TS will be gone. It meens, that TS makes buff and other skills in rotation makes 10% more damage, but TS itself doesnt get enough time to come in using while TS buff is still alive. So, I need not to use True Strike and always use Twin Snakes. Such as GS, TS buff must be longer. 15 seconds or more ^^

Edited: stop stop, Im stupid. Dont read what I wrote) But I still think, that TS buff must be longer

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Originally Posted by Onyxys

Hm... I dont know what rotation you use, but Im talking about my rotation, when the first using of TS makes buff, but I dont have just 2 seconds to use TS again and refresh TS buff. No, I use TS, but buff from the first TS will be gone. It meens, that TS makes buff and other skills in rotation makes 10% more damage, but TS itself doesnt get enough time to come in using while TS buff is still alive. So, I need not to use True Strike and always use Twin Snakes. Such as GS, TS buff must be longer. 15 seconds or more ^^

Edited: stop stop, Im stupid. Dont read what I wrote) But I still think, that TS buff must be longer

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TS is the proper choice 99% of the time. Because for the simple fact that you're not going out to defeat a training dummy. Getting perfect uptime is getting a perfectly non-difficult enemy. Who would need a mnk if such an enemy really did exist?

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Originally Posted by Almalexia

The damage doesn't stop when GL goes down. You get it right back up and keep DPSing.

Many of you need to accept GL3 will sometimes go down despite our best efforts. Treat GL3 as an ideal rather than a baseline. MNK is built around momentum, and if there was never an obstacle to that momentum they may as well have a little box pop up that says:

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Would you like +15% damage? [YES] [NO]

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Now, I'm not arguing against a longer GL duration or retooling the job, but be careful what you all wish for. If they make durations longer, they are surely going to weaken the effect.

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The problem is: When there's no GL3, there's no damage. I'd be fine with building damage if I didn't hit like a wet noodle for the 8 attacks I have to land to reactivate GL3

imo,like celesian said,the best fix would be to make GL not stack anymore and give GL3 bonus at the first rotation.if GL drop we would need only 1 rotation to get GL3 back and like that we wont lose hudge amount of time to build up GL3 with 3 full rotation...

3 full rotation to finaly be able to start dpsing is way to long and when we lose GL because of some fight mechanic,monk dps become shit compared to other class....cmon we are already a melee class,why would we suffer even more by having lower dps then ranged.....melee dps should be higther then ranged.we need to position herself and work harder to stay alive while ranged just pew pew from far at any position and acheive higther dps...this didnt seem right

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Originally Posted by Gooner_iBluAirJGR

The problem is: When there's no GL3, there's no damage. I'd be fine with building damage if I didn't hit like a wet noodle for the 8 attacks I have to land to reactivate GL3

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Wet noodle, huh. :rolleyes:

Remember that GL is cumulative: 5%, then 10%, then 15%. Everything doesn't come to a complete halt.

SE already pared back FoF from 10% to 5%, and that was an on-demand, persistent ability. I have no doubt that a longer GL or a GL that loses stacks one by one will have a reduced bonus since it will be easier to maintain.