Those types of addons are fine. All they let you do is something that Dev's overlooked. But ones that tell you to move in time, are just spoon feeding you the info.Quote:
Originally Posted by MoarLegion
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09-26-2012, 07:29 AMRenen
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09-26-2012, 07:36 AMAntipikaWelcome to a theme park MMO, enjoy your stay. You are meant to play the game the way devs intend you to play the game. If an encounter is made by DEVs with addons in mind, then it means that devs determined that you should use them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renen
You don't want to or you do not agree? The solution is pretty simple: deal with it.
That being said, with XIV being targeted at PS3 users as well, we can be fairly confident that encounters won't rely on the use of addons (beside the ones available natively on PS3, as SE said they may implement on console the most popular addons available on PC.) -
09-26-2012, 07:41 AMRenenhttp://img0.joyreactor.com/images/templates/solo/no.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by Antipika
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09-26-2012, 08:00 AMPreypacerThis is what I'm hoping for.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jynx
Leave the crutches and training-wheels out of the game's more challenging content, please.
Addons like DBM are never necessary so long as people are willing to pay attention, learn the fights and actually attempt to improve. The problem lies in the fact that many people don't want to do that. They want the game to be as easy as possible. They want the win to be as guaranteed as they can make it. And if using an add-on to spoon-feed them the info that they would normally have to learn and pick up on by playing the game gets them their win/loot faster.. then that's all they care about.
My favorite rationalization is when people say something like "all the add-ons do is bring functionality into the game that the devs forgot to add and should have been there to begin with". Are you freaking kidding me? Because "you" (you being the people who use such ridiculous arguments) need a crutch to succeed at certain game content doesn't mean it's "missing from the game". It means you need a crutch to succeed at certain game content that is otherwise do-able without it. -
09-26-2012, 08:02 AMShinigamiKaylayes... I will exclude you if you can't move out of the damned fire... seriously I don't see why your arguing... the reason why you would be booted is because its an add on to help comprehend a fight -.-/ If you die you are holding the rest of the group back and I would not hesitate to kick you... seriously >.>... you would probaly cry "I NEVER GET INTO END GAME WHY DOES NO ONE TAKE ME WHY DO I NOT HAVE GEAR" then someone gives you an option so you can fight on par with ppl who geared and know fights and you would QQ about OHHH ITS TO EASY BECAUSE IT WARNS ME TO STAY OUT OF FIRE...Quote:
Originally Posted by Renen
DBM EXISTS AND PEOPLE STILL DON'T FREAKING COMPREHEND TO MOVE OUT OF THE FIRE... it takes skill to read and understand something... Its the reason I can't stand to run endgame much anymore... less people do it because not many understand it... if you can get more of a population doing endgame more people will get crap done instead of it being an exclusive epeen club... then you have people like this whining when they would never get into endgame without such an addon... seriously Renen... you are making me face desk so hard right now... -
09-26-2012, 08:09 AMRenenI hope you dont actually mean that I am one of those people who stand in a fire. Just for the lulz, I once tanked Ifrit as WHM... And I am always the last to die when my pt wipes to some crazy boss (unless its some un-dodgeble move that is supposed to be handles by a tank). I would actually not care (much) for people using the addons. What I WOULD care for is if I am suddenly required to sue it because the fights are being designed with the addons in mind.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShinigamiKayla
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09-26-2012, 08:17 AMShinigamiKaylaif you want that then have a dedicated group if I am organizing a run for something I want everyone to bring their best game and if an add on helps that then good... if i have not run with someone i can't trust them to move out of something and if they let me down yeh I'm gonna laugh because I had some requested >.>... the point is I have played end game in many MMOs and in each MMO people were required to watch videos on youtube about the fight... something like DBM can only help... If people want to do stuff they need a tiny bit of dedication and if an addon makes up for them not watching a youtube guide or being raiding virgins then its a good thing get new people introduced to the content so more people can do stuff...Quote:
Originally Posted by Renen
ask yourself Renren... if you did not know a fight...what would you do? If you were holding us back because you would not use an add on or watch a video its your fault not the groups... its a personal issue it seems like? I got nothing against you its just the fact your so adamantly hating on such an idea... and btw Ifrit and the primal fights are easy fights... FFXIV was not built around skill... alot of MMOs like WoW are not just tank n spank fights they require A LOT of movement... Ifrit was still a stationary fight a lot of the time same with moogle and garuda... -
09-26-2012, 08:20 AMJynxQuote:
Originally Posted by Malakym
Addons themselves could be considered poisonous to those who wish to not use them. In the case of WoW content is litteraly built around people having said add-ons more or less forcing players who would rather not use them...use them or be left out of content that was designed for the game they are paying for. -
09-26-2012, 08:36 AMJeronlmoI see this often... DBM "tells you" to get out of the fire, I see this as to much, you should just know to get out of the fire, these things should be obvious, this is where we see DBM taking away from the game, info is being fed to you, the fact that it needs to tell you this should be embarrassing.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShinigamiKayla
You may have the ability to listen to your bot and move out of the fire, but you dont have the ability to watch for the fire yourself, I would kick you. -
09-26-2012, 08:40 AMShinigamiKaylayou would not believe how many people do not understand to move out of the fire....there are a big ton of them it does not take away from a game if it helps the big percent of the population who does not know how to move out of the fire to actually make an attempt to not stand in the fire...Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeronlmo
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09-26-2012, 08:50 AMJeronlmoI would believe it, I only tried wow because my brother begged me to go tank for his crap guild, they had maby 2 people who could get out of the fire and I ditched them within days of joining.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShinigamiKayla
Yet when people win the content because of DBM, they think they are good, when in fact, they are "slow", it takes away from the game, it allows tunnel vision, its easy-mode. People who can remember these things without a DBM-like crutch are the people who deserve the rewards, rewarding "slow" people (which increases subs/$ made) so i get it, is a "newer mmo" trend. -
09-26-2012, 08:54 AMShinigamiKayla
but then it holds back the person who cannot dedicate a ton of hours to a game a working person who has a fulll sched what of them? should they be out of content because they are stuck running with scrubs when they get the chance... content should be hard but not to hard that the common gamer... the ones who really support a game... yeh go figure full on hardcore end gamers are not the main ones who play a game usually they are like 30% if any of the player base... the common gamer who pays 15 dollars a month to play and does not get to do the content because they cannot keep on par because either busy and cant dedicate time to learning...
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09-26-2012, 08:59 AMRuisuWe should get rid of Relics and Darklight then, those are crutches. So are double melds.Quote:
Originally Posted by Preypacer
Come on scrubs single melded Cobalt Claws step it up. -
09-26-2012, 09:07 AMJeronlmoShould just delete all code in the game, its a crutch, blank screen ftw. Just use your imagination.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruisu
Your an idiot. -
09-26-2012, 09:08 AMJeronlmoThere really is no nice way to say it, but if people put in more time than you, they should get more, I have a full-time job, I have family, that doesnt mean the game should be nerfed because of me, you should never be on-par people that endlessly play, thats just rediculous, this same argument was used in 11 but thank god it didnt have official forums.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShinigamiKayla
People that play less have access to 100% content, your rl might stop/hold you back, but thats your choice, how is that fair to hold back every other person that plays the game to your lvl basically. In 11 I started playing when I was 12, I did nothing but casual ls's (excluding my sky ls) until 4yrs later, I didnt know anything about endgame until then, I just didnt see it in day-to-day game play, it wasnt thrown in your face and I was happy with what I had. If your a casual player, you should accept this and what you can accomplish in a given day, you can learn stratagy by watching video's if you have less play time, read guides.
Ive seen so many people on FF14 that refuse to even look at a guide or watch a video, its just pothetic, its something so simple to do, but they actually rely on people to tell them what to do mid-run, endgame ls's atleast imo are not for training, its for doing endgame.
This new idea of "I pay the same sub as you should I should be able to do anything at any time" is complete BS, even in 11 people paid the same sub and all had access to all content, it was the drive/dedication to get to the content that kept people away. -
09-26-2012, 09:10 AMRuisuWELL, IF MY AN IDIOT. THEN YOUR A DENSE.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeronlmo
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09-26-2012, 09:12 AMPromethevs
should get rid of filtered combat logs while you're at it, they're obviously telling you what to do, and are thus bots.
you get about as much added value information from "You are taking damage from fire! That might not be good." as you do from "The air around Garuda begins to warp and bend" -
09-26-2012, 09:22 AMJeronlmo
You really dont see a difference from something thats default in the game, and player-made addons (bots) that actually tell you want to do (get out of the fire)?
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09-26-2012, 09:23 AMPromethevs
you don't know that you're supposed to get out of fire? are you really being told what to do?
from my perspective it looks like it's largely a matter of presentation.
and even if it weren't a matter of only presentation (if you are indeed getting some kind of hints), where would the value added data come from? from another player.
how would they find out? from testing without the aid of the addon. it amounts to essentially the same thing as you watching a video and reading a guide, finding out what every text cue means, and then reading the combat log. same story, different presentation.
and in the end, you can choose not to use it. you can also choose not to watch guides. if your ls doesn't like it, you can choose to join a ls that doesn't care. just as you can choose not to filter or read your filtered combat log, and join a ls that doesn't care that you do this. it's really the same situation as you have now, with the separation of a difference in presentation -
09-26-2012, 09:37 AMXatsh
Dungeon finder is for the crappy players who no one wants to play with in their party.
IF players are too lazy to figure out a strat or do research to figure out a fight from community knowledge... they are the people who completely fail to begin with.
Baby hand holding needs to be removed... casual who cannot take the time to figure out a hard fight and cry need to just be told to leave the game. It is add ons like this that ruin mmos, and it forces the devs to develop content with it in mind. -
09-26-2012, 09:42 AMShinigamiKaylayour only endgame experience was in XI? didn't in a previous post I stated something about that... you want to appeal to a larger audience not just those that played XI... i played XI since I was 12 until I was 20 was my first MMO I also however on the other hand also played WoW and a ton of other MMOs in which I did all endgame... hell maybe I played to many MMOs but you can repeat the same patterns and expect a lot of new people to play... screw the 30% that think they are special because they dedicate days of their life playing a game... maybe on the other hand they should go out and get a life... its unhealthy and you can tell who they are by how they act towards others...Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeronlmo
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09-26-2012, 09:44 AMJeronlmo
There is a severe difference in a bot telling you what to do, and you/your guild figuring things out to win something. All of that effort of even looking at vidoe's or reading guides (made by people who have done it without guides/videos) or figuring things out for yourself translates into actually deserving something, actually working for it, being smart enough to just remember you need to get out of the fire when you need to.
If you think a bot telling you what to do means you won the raid, you didnt, your bot won the raid for you.
People like you do not understand how endgame works, if the option is there, I will use what will get me further, but I can not want it to be there. If you do not use something that helps you, your an idiot, plain and simple, but if I can avoid it being an option I would be happy about it. We had this same argument with ff11's abyssea in using "atma's", "if you dont like atma's just dont use them", shits just dumb, abyssea would have been amazing if atma's werent there, now the game is only left with casual gimps who back in the day could barely kill Genbu thinking they are good because you can now solo a "new relic" reguardless of how gimp you are. -
09-26-2012, 09:47 AMJeronlmoI have also played other games/MMO's, own my own business, and have a family, its not about feeling special from playing 11, its from going from a good game design, to a game design that caters to gimps who dont already know to get out of the fire, you have to be told.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShinigamiKayla
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09-26-2012, 09:49 AMPromethevs
dungeon finder has nothing to do with addons.
on another point, the golden age of WoW (before dungeon finder) is largely considered to be TBC through Ulduar, where encounters were designed with addon usage in mind (the trend of designing to addons probably started very early on with blackwing lair, the 2nd raid of the original package).
some of the most dynamic encounters were introduced in this era. even with the addons certain bosses would take a month (the most being 5-6 months with Yogg'Saron with 0 titans) to take down by professional raiding guilds.
the notion that addons will make even the scrubbiest player a master and that the game will be played in ezmode is a poorly conceived misconception with absolutely no basis. there's always the potential to make a difficult encounter for even the best of players, addons or not. if you can't see that this is true, you don't realize just how much freedom you have in games like FFXIV in the way of margin of error on performance. the gap between the most difficult encounter here and the most difficult encounter in WoW's history is staggering.
the notion that addons also breed a game full of retards, ruining it for everyone who's awesome also has no basis. -
09-26-2012, 09:50 AMShinigamiKayla
oh wow... you just proved me right only bringing examples out of FFXI... seriously people need to be more open minded and not closed minded -.-/ Jero you are closed minded and think everyone should treat you like a princes huh?
http://ts1.mm.bing.net/images/thumbn...9067b22f05dc28 -
09-26-2012, 10:02 AMShougunNo one goes into a fight without being told what to do unless they are the first ones to fight that boss - or its an easy boss.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xatsh
Joined a raven party first thing that happened - two paragraphs of what to do if X happens. If not that there are always guides that get proliferated through chats and forums. Or in moogle fights there is always the shouter for moogle order so everyone attacks the same mog.
Its lovely to think hand holding is squashed without addons or is being done with addons. But its being done either way - at least this way you didnt have to type it yourself. -
09-26-2012, 10:06 AMKikosho
It's not a bot... it's information, broken down and simplified so you can make correct decisions when the need arises. Big difference. Aside from that, since this game will be running on the PS3, I don't think the Devs will create fights based around DBM since console users will be unable to use it.
With that said, I personally view DBM as training wheels. Sure you still have to perform properly whenever a warning is given and yes, it can make raids more efficient for everyone involved (gotta make raids as easy and derp as possible to do it over and over again right?). I do view a difference between DBM telling me to move out of the fire and remembering when to move on each specific boss fight and their individual tells. DBM is just makes all of that into a universal warning, so to speak.
To use another example (and using a different genre), if I were to play against someone in a fighting game and I managed to land a hit, DBM would be tantamount to the game telling me which combo to do, displaying it neatly in my face. Sure, I would still personally need to do the combo but the game was dumbed down nonetheless. It is a tool, an effective tool because it does make things easier and allows you to turn a part of your brain off. Does it mean you are a bad player for using it? No. Just someone that wants to be more effective at the expense of more personal input. -
09-26-2012, 10:07 AMJeronlmo1 relies on human input, the other does not. You are not good/skilled/tallented, your bot is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shougun
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09-26-2012, 10:08 AMPromethevsyou are not good/skilled/talented, your combat log is. how silly does this sound?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeronlmo
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09-26-2012, 10:09 AMLevian
I don't particularly demonize addons like DBM. Really what it did was allow you to focus on your cahracter a little more because (at least for the classes I played) there was a lot going on there with cool downs, DoT timers, pet bar/health/position, DPS rotation etc. Having something to make a noise to pull me out of my hunter/warlock DPS trance was a good thing.
If you have a personal vendetta against a DBM type mod, my advice? Don't use it. I played WoW for years add on free, even did a little raiding without it. A few times I got booted for not having DBM or some such nonsense, but after the first few I learned to lie. How the hell do they know what add ons you have and what ones you don't? They can't see your screen, and frankly it's none of their business, but if you having it makes them feel all warm & fuzzy inside, let em think you have it.
Edit: The one addon I really didn't like I think* was called Pally-power. It literally told you what button to push for your tanking and DPS rotations. Completely took out the need to think about what key to press, when, and why. -
09-26-2012, 10:14 AMEliseusIIRC there is, well use to, be an addon that was able to tell you if people were using certain addons like omen threat meter and DBM etc...Quote:
Originally Posted by Levian
DBM is a very good tool, at one point it was so hard to raid without a tools like this, sure maybe people got away with it but not many. Now in days in WoW though it is definitely not needed since WoW has pretty much adopted a lot of the stuff DBM did for you.
It really doesn't matter whether you need DBM or not though, if your raid leader says you need it to help perfect fights in any way possible you should just get it. All it does is make bad players better and great players greater, though there is still bad players that suck even with it lol. You guys know how fast it is to download addons? lol, I'm starting to feel that people complaining in this thread are doing it merely for the purpose of complaining. No big surprise though *flips through the pages of general discussion.* -
09-26-2012, 10:16 AMJeronlmoI have proved nothing for you, ive played other games and I consider them gimp, why exactly should I use examples from gimp games. Ill use wow I guess just for you, I played for 2 1/2 months, I had 4 maxed chars, 7 maxed professions, ilvl398, ilvl392, ilvl390x2 and 4/8 heroic with my guild getting 6/8 the week after I left (pre-nerf). That is a total of 2 1/2 months, never seen/touched the game before, thats all that game takes to virtually win. I think I put in about the same amount of hours as I did for FF9 completing the game (osmo/hades/basically 100% completing the game).Quote:
Originally Posted by ShinigamiKayla
I left wow for the same reason I left FF11 post-abyssea in the middle of solo'ing my 3rd empyrian, I suddenly asked myself why am I playing a where I can solo the best weapon. Its just to easy, because of DBM, wow without DBM would be like abyssea without atma's, it would be hard as hell and amazing. -
09-26-2012, 10:19 AMDuelleIndeed. Doesn't stop some from thinking modern MMOs and the changes to the genre that came with them are the devil, sadly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Promethevs
Actually no, it was the fact that failure had stupidly high costs to the point a reasonable person would eventually say "to hell with it" and try to find something else to do in-game. That's why Al'taieu was the playground of the l337 for as long as it was, and then when it was opened to others via the encounter nerfs and removal of the level caps in CoP zones, the little snowflakes who thought themselves big men stomped their feet and cried.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeronlmo
Trolling aside (really? addons = botting = RMT?), DBM and Bigwigs make things more visible. It does not automate things for you. Not even stuff like Decursor, Healbot, or Pally Power automate things for you.
You're probably thinking of RetCLC. Pally Power kept track of what blessings needed to be cast on the raid.Quote:
Originally Posted by Levian
*puts on Scholar's Mortarboard* Back in WotLK, Paladin blessings could be cast on everyone of the same class in one shot through the use of Greater Blessings (so if my paladin cast Greater Blessing of Might on Pwnzu the warrior, every warrior in the raid would also receive the buff). The caveat is that you're limited to one blessing per paladin. So what you'd do is bring multiple paladins in the raid and assign them to give different blessings on the raid. So if Tralf the prot pally was assigned Blessing of Kings, Sevalis the ret pally was assigned Blessing of Might, and Astarian the Holy Pally was assigned Blessing of Wisdom, PallyPower would help us keep track of when our buffs were up, and most importantly, who needed the buff during prep phases before boss fights. Made things a lot easier over having to click 40-then-25 raid frames to see if buffs were up.
Needless to say, I loved that addon. *takes off Scholar's Mortarboard*
RetCLC was programmed to show you a picture of the attack you had to press, as Ret gameplay at the time was build around a priority order under a first-come-first-serve rule. Ret had no real rotation so it had to go by priority. -
09-26-2012, 10:24 AMLevian
I think certain add ons would link, and you could tell who was/wasn't synched with your add on. But there were also many times where I'd have said add on and it wouldn't link. Maybe because of an out of date download, or something goobered up with the current patche's code. So it was a bit imperfect as far as telling who had what. There's always a loophole somewhere.
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09-26-2012, 10:26 AMJeronlmoA bot throws it in your face and sets off alarms because people are dense and do not deserve to be rewarded.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShinigamiKayla
Reguardless, someone mentioned earlier that the game is attatched to a console (ps4), and such addons could not possibly be used on a ps4 unless it was defaulted into the game, which could happen, but not for a very long time, and for SE to make something default like that, they would just... mess it up so bad none would want it. So im not really worried anymore. /wave -
09-26-2012, 10:28 AMfusionalyour alarm "tells you" to wake up and get to work. omg you're botting your job irl. you should get banned.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeronlmo
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09-26-2012, 10:36 AMJeronlmo
If you truely want to compair it to rl Steroids + sports.
This combo might get you more at the top, but you know they dont deserve to be there. -
09-26-2012, 10:36 AMLevian
Thanks for the correction Duelle. I had a feeling I was wrong but couldn't for the life of me remember the right name. I played ret pally, but for me half the fun was doing it without said addon cause it added a layer of challenge to an otherwise boring class. Didn't really use pally power either.
For the most part I stuck to DBM, omen (even though I rarely hit top 5 in threat) and some sort of damage meter. -
09-26-2012, 10:38 AMJynx
So the best argument I've heard is that the DBM's of the world put crap players on par with people who know what they are doing...
How is this a good thing again?
I'm not utterly agaisnt the add-ons I just don't see the point of stuff like DBM...then again I'll only be raiding with my friends and people I know I don't need to give retard vision to. -
09-26-2012, 10:39 AMShougunAddons are not like that... They do not modify anything that is illegal to modify - they are given a box to play in, and they play in that box.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeronlmo
Steroids are illegal, and they modify the box.
I understand you have a different defintion then most others, but that example is not similar to addons. I'd argue about the abuse of defintion but its something I dont really care that much about it since addons are already confirmed. lol