A skill like shake it off being on a non-healer isn't a issue nor is any similar skills like curing waltz, veil ect. Especially when it fits the Job such as paladin to heal allies.Zitat:
Zitat von Supersnow845
The problem is partly you want a very strict trinity system where healers have one main function, tanks have one main function ect. When I do not want that I think that sort of system leads to very boring and static job design, where you can't have any room where a tank helps with healing (such as a paladin)
I also don't think "aggro management" will ever come back and even if it does it's personally not what I like about tanks, I genuinely enjoy being a melee support defensive hybrid I just think the way it's done currently is the best. I think aggromanagement is fine just rather not it be the identity of my job
Where in ff14 does it offer a fantasy of a magic healing knight if you removed most if not all that aspect from PLD... I'd be either stuck having to play a black line healer that's a mage or tank that isn't really that appealing to me so of course I'm going to want to keep some healing utility on a Paladin It's kind of a big reason why i like the job, I don't think we necessarily need to take away some healing aspects in general.
The sheer reason why i don't like shake it off or warrior healing allies is because it's thematically stupid for warrior. With the obvious exception that it's free ogcd healing is absurd alongside that
Why is Warrior a healer in all but role?
Druckbare Version
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22.11.25, 23:05Rithy255
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22.11.25, 23:51Rein_eon_Osborne
On PLD, you can easily revert back to ShB PLD to fulfill that ‘magic knight’ fantasy without encroaching Healer’s load lol.
No built-in heals on Holy Spirit/Circle/Spellblades. No Cure II-worth of regen slapped on Holy Shelltron & Intervention. Just your good old Clemency. Want more heals? Eat the further loss from doing 1-2-1-2-1-2 to speed up that MP recovery instead of finishing combo, if your party needs that. -
22.11.25, 23:52Alice_RiversThis is the thing, I don't see him arguing that you can't have healing utility just that the tank/healer dynamic should be symbiotic with the healer healing.Zitat:
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23.11.25, 00:10AmiableApkalluI don't think anyone in this thread is actually suggesting deleting Clemency from PLD -- the only real white magic heal in its kit, and the best designed heal of all the tanks' kits due to its opportunity cost (GCD and MP spent on healing vs. damage).Zitat:
Zitat von Rithy255
Which gets at the problem with a lot of tank abilities that restore HP, whether to themselves or to other party members: Aside from a cooldown, they're just free buttons.
You want a magic healing knight? Halleluja. Start by putting those heals on the GCD. (See also: Healers complaining that they spend so few GCDs on healing because their oGCDs are enough.) -
23.11.25, 00:10Rithy255Yeah and reverting to shb paladin would ruin what I enjoy about the job.Zitat:
Zitat von Rein_eon_Osborne
You're basically saying who cares about your job identity as long as healers healers are happy by reverting paladin, which again wouldn't really do much to fix healers so I really don't understand why you'd want that other then to make tank players slightly more miserable.
The PLD identity I have is a Knight that uses white magic both healing and offensive so shadowbringers isn't really a good example of that as I'll never be using clemency anyway (even less so now we have phoenix downs)
Wasn't talking about clemency being removed i was more talking about some of the other skills (I'm fine with some going possibly) but the idea that clemency is enough? it's a skill that gets used once in a blue moon in emergency you can say "best designed" but it's designed in a way that ill never even use in 99% of content. I like the skill don't get me wrong but ill never be using it in most practical situations.Zitat:
Zitat von AmiableApkallu
Again you're saying it's fine that you lose stuff for the sake of healers having more identity, when I'm saying I think both paladin having some healing "free skills" and healer's can perfectly coexist in a balanced game.
The idea that anything heal related on a non healer has to be a gcd and has to cost something (other then a cooldown) is absurd. -
23.11.25, 00:49AmiableApkalluThat's not what I said. If you want healing to be part of your identity, then it should be on the GCD. That applies to every job, including the healers.Zitat:
Zitat von Rithy255
Second Wind as an oGCD? Fine.
Curing Waltz as an oGCD? I say not so fine. Divine Veil? Same as Curing Waltz. And more than enough ink has already been spilled here concerning healers' kits. -
23.11.25, 03:50ValenceNo, because then you'll kill everything that's not a tank. DPS and healers have so much that they can take before keeling over at the smallest hit. Fact of the matter is that tanks have become incredibly powerful, like main character syndrome powerful, and tank mains are trying to cope out.Zitat:
Zitat von Rithy255
Tanks shouldn't be able to heal themselves well, and what they should be allowed are targeted, specific bursts of healing based on skill expression like they used to do. Either by running out of juice (DRK/Abyssal), or having longer cooldowns attached to damage dealt (WAR/Bloodbath or Nascent). Tanks should also lose the tank mastery trait, and this would probably solve a bit of the ludicrous "I'm tanking with 16 vuln stacks and this is fine kthx". In exchange, they should get more focus on actions like cover and mitigation/blocking providers that can specifically help allies or the team, while healers should lose a lot of fat in there as well to make room for it.
But it's obviously not the direction that the devs want, because the devs have stopped caring long ago about the RPG mechanics of their game and what they want out of jobs is not get in the way of their encounter mechanics, and every role should be able to perform what they're designed to do with minimal amount of effort, which means in the case of tanks, staying alive at all costs to keep aggro, because what matters isn't aggro, it's running everywhere like frogs in a blender. The only reason aggro and healing are still in the game is because else it would just drop the pretense that this is still a RPG with red, green and blue roles. -
23.11.25, 04:41Supersnow845
Let me ask this question
If we extended holy’s stun to have an infinite effect on any enemy currently susceptible to holy then how would tanks suggest their role’s design be organised so that they can still enjoy the role without encroaching on the “fun” of infinite holy spam? (This isn’t a rhetorical question, if you can answer this then please go ahead)
This is the question that’s being asked of healers. You can’t redesign your entire role to work within the confines of “another role does your job for you” without ending up just playing a different role entirely under the same name
As per tank arguments I can’t even see a downside for this suggestion, I get more fun as a healer, it doesn’t affect savage because everything is immune to holy and it provides support to non confident tanks so I can’t be walled by a tank who isn’t confident. If you can see a downside to this please let me know -
23.11.25, 04:50ForteNightshadeYou would still either die or take longer than running with a tank. There is not a single speedrun group who drops tanks. So this assertion how much better it would be with four DPS is complete nonsense. At least if maximum efficiency is the end goal.Zitat:
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23.11.25, 04:58HyperiaAgreed, tanks are still needed. I was *trying* to level my SCH (I’m sorry everybody) and I died at 80% of the boss fight. I watched the tank individually and group heal everybody. It was both awe inspiring and depressing at the same time.Zitat:
Zitat von ForteNightshade
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23.11.25, 10:19yesntI have witnessed a warrior intentionally nuke a party to solo the boss, really fun. <3 /sZitat:
Zitat von Hyperia
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23.11.25, 11:27Rithy255Not really because changing damage profiles doesn't just automatically kill DPS or healers the fact I have to say this is ludicrous, but because I'm not 100% on board with deleting all self heals I suppose any argument I make here will be seen as a issue with healers, because they cannot genuinely comprehend that self healing isn't really the issue in of its own. More damage would mean more consistent damage output and more single target damage on the tank from the boss and pulls, which counters your idea that it would mean healers/dps would just automatically die, which makes no sense in the first place.Zitat:
Zitat von Valence
Tanks should be able to heal themselves, again the fact you think any amount of self healing is a issue is just such a weird take Self healing has existed since a realm reborn and worked out there, so it's not like theirs some imaginary impossible compatibility with self healing and healers both having fun. Yes Warrior, Gunbreaker and Paladin are way overtuned in self healing, but acting like the only solution is to delete all of it now! other then clemency a skill you'll never use just shows none of you actually care about people who do enjoy self sustain on tanks, so why should they care about you enjoying healer?? I want a game where both healers and tanks are working together, self healing even target healing doesn't prevent that from happening despite how much bloodwhetting/flash is used as a counterpoint it's just a example of a very poorly implemented version of sustain that people will use as a quick reason why sustain will never work
In a world where Paladin only had holy sheltron as sustain, they'd heal 1000 potency twice per minute, that would be 2/5ths of your HP, you're telling me that they cannot design content around tanks healing less then half their health per minute? like what are yall even talking about anymore, It's crazy this is seen as a problem to anyone frankly.
Funny thing is I agree with your last statement because your true here they genuinely don't care about anything that is non dps, but it's frustrating to see this spin around into "it's all the tanks fault for being invincible!" like no I dont want super op tanks but acting like sustain or target healing can't have a place on a job like paladin (outside of clemency a skill you will never use 99% of the time) isn't at all logical.
Though I'd be interested if the devs tried to move more away from the strict trinity system as I think it's become a problem with how this game has evolved Jobs are too restricted in one direction if we go back to tanks can only do "x, y and z" ect. It would also encourage them to give healer jobs such as white mage and scholar more fun dps rotations while also not making them healer exclusive, though this is all cope from me. -
23.11.25, 12:10ForteNightshadeOh, it's ridiculous how long Warrior and Paladin can survive. Both have solo'd some normal mode raids, specifically E1 because unless a mechanic outright kills them or there isn't enough back to back mechanics to exhaust their CDs, they're basically immortal. I get SE wanting to make it so a given dungeon wasn't entirely dependent on a healer, but they went way too far.Zitat:
Zitat von Hyperia
I sincerely hope you reported them. It's one thing to solo a boss after people die but intentionally killing people is a real jerk move that GMs will ban for pretty quickly.Zitat:
Zitat von yesnt
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23.11.25, 13:10RedLollyI hope you reported that player. That's griefing through and through.Zitat:
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I'm sorry you had to deal with that.
The only time I ever see a tank use Clemency is G'raha. He is programmed to prioritize healing you with it if you're HP gets low even as a tank.Zitat:
Zitat von Rithy255
But, tossing this apparently extreme idea out there; Do tanks really even NEED self-sustain? DPS do fine with almost zero and healers are basically just outlasting mobs with their crappy DPS by relying on self-sustain. Since tanks can and should be mitigating damage as well as innately having vastly superior defense and HP, they could get away with only needing a little self-heal too and relying on the team healers in group content. -
23.11.25, 14:06Rithy255Sustain is apart of tanks, it's another way to "tank" taking that away from tanks is taking away a core fundamental way to tank, So yes I think if you want a varity of different defensive kits tanks should have some sustain. The three core ways to tank damage is Mitigation, Shielding and Self sustain those cores have always been there, Self sustain to a lesser extent in the past and endwalker took that way too far but not only that it super buffed a lot of mitigations when DT doubled down on that.Zitat:
Zitat von RedLolly
I think the current problem isn't sustain, It's Sustain + Mitigation, The solution isn't to just take out one of those things because "well we tried" that's literally the SE way of doing things if it don't work lets just remove it rather then trying to make things work, such as beloved aggro management.
Should insane amounts of sustain exist? No Warrior is ridiculous it's balance is out so bad in casual content, but because Warrior and even paladin have really good sustain that should be nerfed, does not mean ALL sustain must go unless useless like clemency (which I gather is a popular argument for healers) We should rein tanks in and nerf sustain AND mitigation to be more inline and balanced, Like I said if a Tank restores around 2/5ths (This is in line with keeping only holy sheltron as plds main sustain while removing magic attack sustain) if you're still having immortal tanks when they have a semi decent amount of sustain then that's not a problem with sustain that's a problem with damage output going onto the tank and how defensive the tanks are If your entire Healer role is able to be done by restoring a tank slightly once a minute then we have a VERY serious problem with outputs not JUST sustain. We should be asking for them to fix damage and enemy output aswell as reducing tank kits rather then accepting very little damage output, because healers wouldn't be happy with doing one OGCD heal per minute, No we need to fix the output we need to fix healer/tank design rather then just taking things away.
I don't know call me crazy but I don't think it's insane to say some level of tank sustain or even target healing can exist for free, while healers can also have the need to actively heal, It's only seen as a problem because of some weird sense of pride "I'm a healer THAT'S MY thing, no one can do even a 10% of MY job". Frankly it's tiring to hear healers complain that they don't have a job identity and are trying to actively strip away paladins identity that of being the Holy magic healing Knight. All I'm saying is lets not just blindly say all sustain is bad but you see how much backlash even a simple statement like that makes.
Though if it makes you happy SE will more likely want to remove sustain then rework tanks and healers into being more balanced and fun for everyone, because that's the easier option sure it will make some people happy that now instead of pressing no healing skills you get to press like 1 per pull and 1 per boss encounter. Good job healers fixed now! enjoy doing the exact same thing you were already doing and making tanks worse to play. -
23.11.25, 14:15Supersnow845
The thing is while I don’t even oppose tank sustain in a semi balanced form there is no functional difference between “nerf sustain” and “buff damage”. It’s the 7.1 PCT problem where you just power creep all power content then hope current content is better balanced for when you actually luck into current content. If the concern is flavour there is much bigger concerns than how much of PLD’s sustain is “thematic white magic”
Building balance atop current sustain design (not saying you said that exactly just that that is a common suggestion) is just really easy way to create a wonky tower of balance that completely destroys the integrity of anything older than said decision -
23.11.25, 14:32Rithy255Problem is lets say all Tanks were now effectively like Dark knight (without a heal on your 40% and heal from drain/carve) How much are you expecting that to improve healer gameplay alone? how much are you actively more going to heal in dungeons and even savage content with that change?Zitat:
Zitat von Supersnow845
The content's output Needs to change in order for healer to be more actively healing, other changes alongside that such as reducing tank sustain (especially warrior who infinitely scales in AOE) and Mitigation need to be ontop of that, I rather they actively effect all playing factors into why tanks feel immortal rather then just heavily addressing one problem, because it makes a much more fun experience for tanks and healers, rather then just kind of punishing tanks and only very slightly improving healer gameplay.
My question more is if a tank is recovering around 2/5ths of it's hp per minute in what world would that replace healer's other then one that's fundamentally flawed in it's damage output design, Even if we didn't have that form of sustain, healers job would be what? Healing a very small amount of the tanks hp while being a dps 95% of the time? While fixing damage output also only effects new content, old content over the years has become a meme and barely functions so unless they plan on addressing that they should make core encounter changes alongside tank power creep being heavily nerfed down to something way more feasible and sane.
I get frustrated with this because I do want healers to actually heal I want people to enjoy playing the role they singed up for, we should NOT be reinforcing warriors design and double down on sustain we shouldn't be balancing around current tank sustain or creep obviously but theirs a extent where sustain should play a part in tank design, even some form of support which can include miniscule amounts of target healing on allies that Should not replace the healer and if it does then it's a issue with the output. -
23.11.25, 14:56Supersnow845
I’m not saying reducing tank healing to 40% of its current levels will alone fix healers
I’m saying if you buff outgoing damage buff 60% or nerf tank sustain to 40% it’s already functionally achieved the same thing
Healers need holistic changes but I don’t know how many more times I can tell you that. It doesn’t change the fact that to rebalance lack of outgoing damage the first and easiest thing to do is reduce sustain, because building future content on the current sustain just invalidates existing content
This doesn’t mean doing just that will fix healers -
23.11.25, 15:23Rithy255I know you're not saying reducing tank sustain (pretty much to 0 going off by whats been said here) would not be your only change, but it's a very lazy lame change that barely makes a dent into the healer issue, while again taking away one of the core 3 ways to "tank" damage.Zitat:
Zitat von Supersnow845
I also think it would be more reducing tank healing by 60-70% aka things such as taking PLD's massive burst healing from holy blade combo, so on average per minute it would sustain 2000 potency from uses of sheltron, which 2000 potency (which mind you is a lot lower then healers 2000 potency because of passives) is around 40-50% of the tanks hp, which would make it so you could actually balance fights feasible in ways where tanks take more then 50% of their total hp in a minute (which should be a very standard thing that tanks Do take quite a lot of damage throughout a fight).
Yes the easiest thing to do is to reduce or pretty much remove sustain, but again do you think SE would actually bother to do anything more in depth after that? if it's seen as "fixed" now, I honestly think this idea that they should only do the bare minimum so that no one is happy but technically healers are useful now is the worst outcome for both tanks and healers who want more then just half baked changes I don't think always just looking for the most easiest solution that "technically" solves the issue of healers feeling useful is the right direction. It's also not like I'm against reducing sustain heavily it's very much over tuned and deserved at this point, so a part of me can see your point that sustain is way too overvalued.
We also need to forget about "existing content" as it gets invalidated by new expansions all the time, I don't care how it feels to play healer in ARR or Hw because that content has been neglected for years with new skill update after update, we should be focusing on future content and designs and not let us be held back, This argument would make more sense if old content served any sort of purpose and was functional, but it isn't. -
23.11.25, 16:23Rein_eon_OsborneSometimes I wonder if the reason people don't 'see' PLD's sustenance as bad as WAR was simply because they're accustomed to see 'lololol 4 benediction back to back', which ofc will make everything else pales in comparison. Anyhow...Zitat:
Zitat von Rithy255
ShB was the time I enjoyed PLD the most despite its flaw being the 'worst' tank in term of active sustenance discounting Clemency, because like you said, they should be minimized in practice like any other toolkits with healing nature (because why do you want to overheal?). I like having to make a conscious, active decisions when the party actually needs -my- Clemency so I can buy time for the healer to raise in conjunction to Cover/HG/whatever I have at the moment by forgo'ing my full combo and switch to 1-2-1-2-1-2-1-2 for the much needed mana regeneration. Today? Probably in my 71 minutes run of Thaleia from the other day, lol.
The addition of HoT into their Holy Shelltron, Intervention, AND in-built juices to their Holy Spirit/Circle/Spellbade at 6.0. pretty much turned me off from picking PLD to tank & makes me internally grumble as a healer if I got paired with one anywhere beyond lv82-86+, because how absurd its sustenance. For reference purpose, I like to use Cure II/Tetra to compare potencies because it takes 1 cast of Holy Shelltron/Intervention or 2.5 casts of Holy Spirit/Circle/Spellblade to match the healing amount.
You can't convince me "Oh it's just tiny amount, I swear!!" when WHMs already don't have or need to cast as much Cure II/Tetra/any of their adjacent buttons -before- 6.0 in the similar scenarios. So why then, you insist on wanting to keep these additional sustenance that you never needed? I personally could probably tolerate one of them (only HS HoT, -only- Intervention HoT, or only built-in juice to Holy Spirit/Circle), but definitely NOT all of them. Understanding these cases, I'm gonna be blunt - that's more than 'just helping healer'. That's also doing their already diminishing job desk. Mind you, I'm placing the blame fully on the dev because it is them who pulled down the lever and let out all the cats off the bag. Whoever green-lighted this decision probably have enough foresight to spot bad healers in one of their runs (who doesn't?), but not enough to realize what it means to the green coded role.
Also not really directed at you specifically but more to general you since I've seen this used so many times in the board: the line "Do you think SE would bother to do XXX" is overused at this point. If we take that to heart then honestly we might as well cease to discuss 50 - 70% of topics in the board because clearly SE either doesn't bother or sees them as low prio - and because this is NA forum... welp... lmao. -
23.11.25, 17:01Rithy255Paladins sustain just outright isn't as bad as warrior and easier to solve without changing much, aka removing all of the healing from magic attacks, Warrior has Healing tied to every single of its cooldowns at massive potencies (a lot of data such as savage fights only show pld a bit behind because your generally going to use your attacks regardless while warrior will save a lot of their defensives for when needed) Paladins self healing is absurd don't get me wrong but doesn't hold a candle to a warrior who uses all of their sustain constantly.Zitat:
Zitat von Rein_eon_Osborne
Personally I enjoyed 6.0 paladin the most because i liked having that complicated rotation while having a lot of self healing tools, though I'll admit the magic attack healing just isn't needed strictly speaking they didn't and shouldn't have added as much sustain as they did, I don't know but perhaps you wouldn't want any at all which is your opinion but adding some amount of sustain to the one tank who didn't have any despite being the tank identity most related to healing.
Also it depends on your definition of a "tiny amount" I think 2000 potency worth of self healing per minute (or two Terta uses) is a acceptable and fair amount to have on a tank if it's their Only form of sustain because I fully agree with you that PLD shouldn't be able to keep both healing on magic attacks and holyshreltron/intervention (I count both as they're similar skills that cost the same amount of charge difference being one goes on a target the other doesn't) for a tank hp bar that's at most half your hp healed per minute which shouldn't be a problem.
Why wouldn't you grumble at other tanks too? Paladin isn't the only one with sustain, Gunbreaker for one has a insane amount of sustain I'd argue even better then Paladins because you can control it's output more and it has a burst heal excog rather then a regen, the main difference between paladin is that it has a AOE heal/shield so in savage fights along with passive healing it outputs a lot more on sites that show healing rates for tanks. Dark knight is also really good in AOE and I barely need to heal Dark knights despite them having the least amount of self healing, because a big part of it is the mass amounts of mitigation.
My problem is and it goes back around to what I've said if you want to look at tank kits, great awesome lets reduce down everything rather then looking at one thing thats a problem, you seen skills like Guardian? now that's POWER creep. Lets make these skills weaker along side reducing down sustain and the passive 20% mitigation tanks have, rather then just taking one aspect out of tanks kits entirely is all i've been saying.
Lastly yeah SE doesn't read anything here, we're all just screaming at a wall hoping changes happen because the game is in such a bad state, Though I think if they were to realistically listen to any feedback they would unironically remove sustain and leave everything else the same, that's literally how they balance things through major expansions is remove something because some person complained about it and then call it a day. Rather then making bigger steps and changes not to just make tank kits reasonable, but to add more fun stuff to healers aswell as the active need to actually heal. -
23.11.25, 17:34ValenceSo, let me understand this right, you want to dramatically increase boss damage output, but not touch to the raid wide AoEs then? Just the boss single target attacks?Zitat:
Zitat von Rithy255
Okay, sure, but as I think I've already stated somewhere else, I don't understand the logic still. We used to have tanks standing at 4 in defense, with random dungeons doing like 2 in terms of threat, now tanks have been cranked up to 10 so obviously nothing can even remotely threaten them, so you'd want to increase trash and boss damage to 5+ in order to threaten them again. Then I'm asking, what have we gained? Nothing. You've just made everything more lopsided and just kept a dividing factor of 2 between AAR/HW/SB and your idea and you now have come full circle for nothing. The only roles that are left behind are DPS and healers, even if the damage you increase doesn't directly concern their survival (if you say it's just boss single target damage and trash damage).
You do know that tanks were also able to self heal before they became absolutely unhinged in EW+ right (yes obviously, you say it later in your post)? Difference is, it required skill, and had more in built limitations than "I just press a stupid button every 25s like a monkey and I get 3 benedictions" - I'm not saying that's what you want, but I really don't understand your logic.
I'll stop you right there. I never said this and I think you're not reading what I write.Zitat:
Zitat von Rithy255
At some point that's another solution, since it seems unlikely they're gonna backpedal and suddenly start to reintroduce actual roles for tanks like enmity management, resource management (notably regarding their self healing), enemy positioning, etc. I would have balked at the idea before pvp showed me otherwise: tanks aren't more tanky than other jobs natively, they may have 5k HP more but they don't have innate mitigation more than anybody else. What they do have however, is strong defensive tools that they have to use at the proper moment, and depending on the tank, by also using them on the correct targets (notably WAR with the self healing from damage dealt). Suddenly you get tanks that can take damage like everybody else, that require healing like everybody else, unless they're using their defensives at specifically chosen times.Zitat:
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23.11.25, 18:22Rithy255Firstly sorry for misunderstanding your point on healing as I saw the part where you said "Tanks shouldn't be able to heal themselves well" and took that as you not wanting any sustain at all, despite you mentioning sustain you were fine with right after I must have missed that because I've been talking over and over about tank sustain and I tend to miss sentences and stuff sometimes (because of dyslexia lol)Zitat:
Zitat von Valence
I want boss to output quite a bit more yeah, rather then more higher spiked damage AOE's that dps/healers can't survive i'd rather just more frequent instances of AOE damage and stuff such as damage over time debuffs, This doesn't have to be a insane amount as I've said serval times (if you seen some of my posts here) that I think we also need to tune down tank kits dramatically in addition to making fights deal more damage in general, you can want both to happen, while any normal game that would generally put some strain on tanks, with FF14 tanks are so absurdly strong that you're going to have to do a lot more then just tune down one aspect, I also think healers should be generally healing more including AOE, which nerfing tanks doesn't really change that.
Of course i know that SHB had sustain that was reasonable... it's kind of the whole point, I want tanks to go towards a middled approach where they have reasonable sustain, I much rather sustain be more closer to shadowbringers then the insane amounts of sustain most tanks have in Endwalker, I just don't want paladin to lose all its healing again for example, I don't mind the excog on gunbreaker if its significantly weaker and regen goes back to 200 potency, I think Warrior just needs something because yikes that job is actually insane I'm not defending it's level of sustain at all. I also think tank mitigations (100% the passive inbuilt mitigation) need to be looked at because I don't think tanks should be these uber defensive sustain demi gods.
I honestly don't know where we would fundamentally disagree 100% on tuning back tanks kits to be more on line with other roles, my whole point was I'm pushing back on this idea that skills with some sustain are automatically bad because they're "free" No one was saying Aurora was a insane broken sustain tool because it was free back in shadowbringers for a reason because some level of sustain or target healing is acceptable just not too much like endwalker+ tanks
It's funny because you could genuinely replace Tank & Healer with a few variant actions, Variant dungeons is a pretty solid proof of concept of this, I don't think we have to go to that direction, but I don't really like the idea of a strict trinity system nor do i think aggro management is going to ever be added back, so honestly rather then keeping healers as these one button dps who throw out a heal once every year I do like the idea into making them into actual jobs... PVP is a example of pretty much erasing the trinity system and people generally like it, not to say I would 100% be on board but I can't deny it could lead to the tank/healer roles feeling a lot better if they aren't going to bother in trying to fix them in the first place. -
23.11.25, 18:38Valence
I think I mostly agree, but I still do prefer HW's self sustain systems over SHB's, because SHB is precisely when they started making WAR go absolutely overboard with the predecessor of Bloodwhetting (Nascent), which fortunately was still tied to damage dealt like it used to with bloodbath so it still retained some skill expression and it was impossible to line up 3 benedictions back to back for every Nascent since you'd only have your burst every minute, but it still meant you could do it every minute, which was already seen as absolutely broken back then compared to all three other tanks. HW's sustains were very interesting because they required resource management (Dark Arts Abyssal) and/or good damage application on targets (Bloodbath Berserk or Dark Arts Abyssal).
For instance, I don't want PLD to lose all of its self healing either even thought it could be its actual identity to rely on other things, but I do want tank defensives to involve some thought process and require some skill play again. Current PLD's self healing doesn't do that more than WAR's current braindead Bloodwhetting does. You just self heal by going through your big buttons on PLD. It's just passive. Cast your Confiteor combo and that's a bonus.
Say I mentioned pvp tanks above because not only outside of their defensives they're just a regular job with a bit more HP, but also because using their defensives well isn't a given and about pressing a win button like a monkey. If we take PLD again, I actually like what pvp Holy Sheltron does because not only it grants a barrier (like the pve guardian) but allows you to increase your mitigation when being under pressure and taking damage, but works differently if you're not taking damage by blowing up in the face of the enemy and increasing your attack damage (which is similar to pve off tanking). This requires you to think when you want to use it or keep it, between offense or defense. You also have another tool that's all about self healing which is Imperator, and landing it on as many targets as possible, or at least the most likely target for your team,i s a big deal because anybody hitting said target(s) will self heal a little from it (and it stacks from multiple instances/AoE). Then lately you have some self heals in the form of holy spirit and Confiteor and those have range considerations a bit like in pve/uptime.
Obviously you wouldn't want to copy 1:1 sheltron to pve because people would just go "just make the PLD off tank because it gains damage from doing it". But then again, perhaps if all tanks had the same kind of considerations, then this wouldn't happen anyway, you know? -
23.11.25, 18:40Aravell
I just want to point out in this discussion that, while self-sustain has always been part of the tank role, it did always come at a cost. Clemency was not seen as total garbage when it was introduced because WAR and DRK also had to drop their damage for full access to their heals. Not to mention that self-sustaining wasn't infinite back then, WAR didn't have a 25s CD flat potency heal button, they instead had access to more limited healing like Bloodbath which was a 90s(?) CD and scaled off their damage done (which Nascent Flash also did back in ShB), also Inner Beast (which required the -20% damage of Defiance) and Equilibrium.
Now, in the case of people arguing that tanks don't infringe upon the healers in savage, that's not true. In earlier expansions, if both tanks took a buster, the healers had to act, whether that be a pre-casted Adlo or a Cure/Benefic II after, but in the current game, if a PLD and a WAR cross-mitigate with their short CDs, the healer does not need to act because they'll just heal each other up. Also worth noting that Shake it Off having a barrier, a heal and a regen attached to it means the WHM had less reason to heal. So yes, though you see the numbers as small, it does cut into the required healing that healers need to do, so saying tank healing doesn't change anything for healers in savage+ is false. -
23.11.25, 18:41RedLolly
My stance is that tank self-heals should only be SLIGHTLY better than DPS job options, while maintaining their mitigation tools and current stat spreads. Then you have a selection of beefy jobs with good DPS and tools to slow down incoming damage.
The issue is healers are being made redundant in every piece of content because tanks are so well equipped to keep themselves alive without help and, despite each having a mountain of healing and damage mitigating tools themselves, healers hardly get to use them and are stuck spamming their simplistic DPS options that are supposed to be simple filler.
We're on page 15 and the fundamental issue is TANKS are the outliers. Tanks are NOT meant to be nearly invincible in barely competent hands. That is the crux of a trinity job system, why healers are so mad, but-
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23.11.25, 21:35ForsakenRoeYou keep misunderstanding the point. You're acting like the Tanks, under the iron fisted rule of someone like me, would lose their self healing and have it replaced with nothing. I personally would not do that, I would replace the selfhealing, with self-barriers of equal potency. If you're timing your self-mitigative CDs like Bloodwhetting or Sheltron correctly, you would still benefit from the same amount of 'self sustain'. Moreso, in fact, because you'd have a larger shield going into a heavy hit. What is currently 'PLD has a 15%+15% mit from Sheltron' would become '15%+15% mit, plus 4 layers of 250p barrier, one of which is used to protect you from the tankbuster'. You would be more tanky, not less, so long as you have the bare minimum of 'can time a CD correctly'. In fact, the reason that Sheltron was changed from 'Guaranteed to block' to direct damage Mitigation, was because PLD was getting folded by Tankbusters in Abyssos that applied a Bleed (with the Bleed ignoring the damage reduction effect of Blocking). While the HOT effect of Holy Sheltron also helps to counteract those Bleeds (by healing the damage the Bleed deals), a 'layered Self-Barrier' akin to Haima would fulfill the same purposeZitat:
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Since you're on about PLD a lot, here's the breakdown of how it'd be changed (according to me):
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Guardian: It already applies a very large Barrier, so it doesn't need to be changed. It is balanced by the fact that the barrier has a duration, and it's a 2min CD
Holy Spirit/Holy Circle/Confiteor/Blade of Faith, Truth, Valor: Each would apply a 400p self-barrier called 'Sanctifiying Light', lasting 12s.
Using another action that triggers Sanctifying Light adds the new 400p to the existing remaining Sanctifying Light buff, and refreshes the duration back to 12s.
Holy Sheltron: Adds 4 stacks of 'Bastion of Light'. Each stack is a 250p barrier, and when one is fully consumed, the next layer takes its place.
Bastion of Light has a 12s duration. Using Holy Sheltron while Bastion of Light stacks remain adds another 4 stacks, and refreshes the duration back to 12s.
Intervention: Same as Holy Sheltron, but gives the stacks of Bastion of Light to the target instead of yourself. They behave the same way as the ones granted by Holy Sheltron.
Divine Veil: Effect changed from '10% of PLD's Max HP, plus 300p heal' to '25% of PLD's Max HP'.
Basically, turn the 300p heal into a Barrier, then combine it with the existing barrier effect of the action. 25% might be too high/too low, I'm estimating, so tune numbers as required
Clemency: Stays as a 1000p heal. It's GCD and costs damage to use, so it's not often used anyway, but it's a nice tool for certain situations.
With similar changes across the whole Tank role, I assume Clemency alone would not be enough to enable 'Healerless Ultimate clear' runs and the like
Heck, I'll go even further. Give Cover a bonus effect, where the PLD and the Covered ally get given a 300p barrier upon execution. Give Intervention a bonus effect, where if the PLD has Guardian active, it also transfers 25% of the Guardian's Will Barrier (250p) to the target, along with the 10% mitigation bonus (which is 25% of the 40% effect of Guardian). Give Blade of Honor the same Sanctifying Light proc as the other Blade actions. And the best part is, I can suggest all of these things safe in the knowledge that it's all still going to be balanced/not OP, because they all have durations, they expire if left unconsumed by damage.
Side note, PLD did not need the selfhealing attached to Holy Spirit/Confiteor combo when EW came out. Yes, it did not have an ability in its basic combo that restored HP like Storm's Path or Souleater, but it made up for that in a unique, thematic, PLD-specific way: Blocking. It didn't heal HP back, it mitigated more of the autoattack damage coming in. But, people complained after seeing WAR could use Nascent in SHB to heal for 'sometimes a lot and sometimes an ok amount' (plus Equilibrium being un-tied from Tank Stance), and the new GNB with Aurora on a 45s CD, and they complained that 'why can't PLD also selfheal like that', not realizing that it sustained itself in a less visible way -
24.11.25, 15:07Rithy255
The problem is I do not want to be more tanky do you not understand that? I don't like having absurd mitigation values just as much as I don't like having absurd self heal values on warrior and paladin's magic attacks, Tanks need to be overall less defensive in my opinion because the idea that they should be immortal mitigation gods just doesn't make sense, You'd barely be healing as a healer if tanks had shields (even if they expire) because this game has very predictable damage profiles outgoing auto attacks especially in casual content aren't enough to make healers to acitvely heal, they may throw out a ogcd heal once per minute but that's not fun and exciting healer gameplay.
I'll make my stance clear I want Healers to actively Heal a lot more, I want tanks to feel less defensive, heck if we take away some of the absurd mitigation tools and nerf them they should go to buffing skills like aqua veil, so it gives back some more responsibility to the healers in working together to keep your tank and party alive as that is my ideal, Tank and Healers should be treated as supportive roles that work off each other rather then both being overbloated with heavy mitigation kits or heavy healing kits (or both in most modern tanks cases).
If It was my ideal I'd go further and even say I'd love tanks to become way more supportive rather then selfish immortal gods, but I know here people will disagree with that and I can understand to a extent that some will feel like tanks will be overstepping on what a healer does even more.
I also want to note for consistencies sake I think Tank damage and healer damage need to be more inline with each other, Healer should gain more damage skills while removing some of the healing "bloat" tanks should really have less mitigation (Also healing) and I think theirs room to expand on their rotations, while keeping them as active support roles.
Finally I just want to say I don't think making healers useful for the sake of it is the right way to go, which would be in line with your changes, because healers might be more required (at least in ultimates) My personal wants is that they're more fun to play in general not just some tacked on after thought that's there because well every 2 minutes you need to press your AOE heal and time to go back to glare spam... I really am against the idea of forcing healers to work in their current design and form, rather then going through things and rebalancing tanks and healers power levels as a general, because I think healers and tanks deserve better rather then bare minimum lazy design we've been getting starting with SHB. -
24.11.25, 21:12Rein_eon_Osborne
Honestly if it were up to me, the degree of sustain I'd like to see with the tanks would be back somewhere to their ShB sustainability with some tweaks, which entails the following loosely:
All tanks:
- Remove Rampart's lv94 trait and revert their 40% mits back to its 30% variant.
- Give them all Convalescence to compensate the loss of their healing action received trait. I personally never liked that they're combined to Rampart.
PLD:
- Keeps Clemency as their situational sustain while letting them heal 50% more potency under Requiescat/Imperator.
- Remove Holy Shelltron HoT and replace it with 4s 400p barrier that buffs Shield Bash into a conal dps increase AoE if the barrier breaks.
- Turn Holy Circle/Spirit/Spellblade juices into stackable personal shields ONLY when they're cast under Requiescat/Imperator window.
- Remove Intervention's HoT. Move the HoT (placed on target ally) into Cover which now has 60s cooldown.
- Idk about Divine Veil but I'd probably combine both the cure potency and shield potency to make one bigger barrier. No, I definitely did not miss the ability requiring GCD heal to proc while also NOT shielding the PLD.
WAR:
- Revert back Raw Intuition (20% mit for 6s at 25s cd) and Nascent Flash (same as today but cure potency scales on damage dealt) to its ShB iteration.
- Bloodwhetting is now separate from Raw Intuition, with their cure potencies are turned into barriers that generates itself after every GCD & stackable. Each lasts for 6s. For each barrier broken will reset the recast of Upheaval/Orogeny.
- Remove HoT and healing component off Shake It Off but give a larger boost to its shield generation depending on how much cooldowns they dispelled idk the proper number.
- Idk what to do with Equilibrium but probably remove their HoT as well.
DRK:
- Nerf AD cure potency to 300p per target but separate them from CaS.
GNB:
Idk what to do with GNB but maybe give them the option to use Aurora and today's HoC only if they eat the damage loss by junctioning a (dead) healer in their party? I.e. Heart of Stone remains as it is, and only turn into Heart of Corundum if GNB Junctions a healer. At the very least, I don't think they should have access to all 300p regen from two Auroras and HoC like today without some cost.
Because I'm a ShB baby, I can only use that expac as a point of reference. And I recall clearly the trinity was still alive and well despite the possibility of going healerless in dungeons (with knowledge & skill) and the existence of some tank sustains. -
24.11.25, 22:30Rithy255For PLDZitat:
Zitat von Rein_eon_Osborne
I think if you were to change magic attacks into a barrier I rather be it when it's not during your burst (req window) as it would encourage PLD's to hold holy spirits and time it, I don't really feel too keen on giving a Barrier to Holy sheltron when it's 40% already has a Barrier + Req giving barrier, Dark knight fits the "barrier tank" theme. I like the regen on cover, Though I'd like at least a little bit of self/personal sustain (not to its current extent) if other tanks keep it to a extent, or PLD would likely be designated off tank again. similar to shb but less extreme as you don't outright lose damage for being a MT. I feel like DV if you dont want the heal aspect and view it as a issue could likely increase healing by 10% (sort of like Bard/Mnk's ability) I personally don't think a 400 potency (that's like 300 healer potency) is the end of the world though.
Warrior
I like the warrior ideas in general, I loved Shb warriors defensive kit as it felt like you had options and choices Raw int/flash being totally different cooldown's that are shared one for sustain one for mitigation just works nicely Imo, one thing I'd change about the SHB ver is making flash selfish but Raw Int targetable I'd also just make BW a upgrade that mitigates more and keeps the barrier aspect. Equilibrium should lose the HOT, If that's still viewed as too op (with keeping something similar to flash), It's possible to make the cooldown longer or reduce the potency further. Also I'd remove the 40%'s heal effect as it's regen is way too much, I'd replace it with some other mitigating effect (I have no clue why SE thought warrior needed more sustain in DT)
DRK
Now DRK would be one of the best sustain tanks as it's 40% has a massive heal and AD is slept on for AOE sustain even at 300 potency it would be a massive heal in AOE, keeping both CaS and AD for fight's would also mean it would have 800 healing per minute ontop of it's 40% healing it, Not against it but it's kind of weird how much sustain you'd take off PLD & Gnb but ignore DRK in particular.
GNB
I just feel like these are very odd and un-needed changes, Aurora should go to 200 potency (I don't mind the two charges personally) HOC should either have its healing aspect removed or reduced strongly -
24.11.25, 23:04Rein_eon_OsborneI mentioned on all tanks section that I'd like them to revert all their 40% mits back to their 30% variants. Meaning that PLD will not have the extra barrier (Sentinel), WAR will not have the regen on hit (Vengeance), DRK will not have excog (Shadow Wall), and GNB will not have the increased max HP (Nebula). Just 30%, if that was unclear.Zitat:
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I also almost forgot that DRK's LD now behaves like Bloodwhetting. We could remove the healing aspect but I wouldn't want the DRK to just drop dead if they do not get healed to full before Walking Dead expires. Maybe inflict them other kind of debuff to replace death.
As for GNB comment, the idea is to keep their sustenance relatively the same as its ShB counterpart, which is to say... just 1 charge of 200p Aurora per minute. However I'd like players to have the option to access today's equal HPS degree of double charge on Aurora and Excog on HoC at will if they feel the need for it, but at the cost of their own dps; similar idea to how 6.1 PvP GNB allows them to access Blasting Zone by junctioning a DPS, Aurora by junctioning a Healer, and Nebula by junctioning Tank (or self) - not all 3 are available at any given time. But that entails to changing PvE GNB beyond recognition so I will not say further than that & I hope SE will find better comment from GNB mains or come up with something better themselves.
If it weren't clear by now, I'm going by with ShB tank sustenance profile which was IIRC: PLD/WAR (if they sacrifice dps) >>>>>>>>>> WAR > GNB/DRK (maybe DRK slightly lower) > PLD (if no Clemency). -
24.11.25, 23:57Rithy255That's valid Id want them to keep the 40%'s unique "favour" just nerfing them down (Example - Guardian becomes a 30% mit + 500 potency shield) Other tanks would keep the "upgrade" but it would stay 30% and a super nerfed version of it, though in warriors case i think its regen is just not needed.Zitat:
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Also I just find it odd that the "white magic" using tank would have the least amount of sustain, this is a big problem with how shb implemented tank sustain imo, but whatever works for you as it's really more down to personal opinion on what tank deserves sustain or not. -
25.11.25, 00:25DaraliiWhite magic has never exclusively been healing. You can find comparable spells to PLD's damaging and mitigation ones in many FF games, including older versions of XIV, and they don't need the relatively recent self-healing as an additional effect to feel like they're part of the same family.Zitat:
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25.11.25, 01:32Rithy255thematically Paladin has always had healing tied to it, Though white magic has generally been more about healing in general right? I was under the impression wind/areo magic being tied to white magic was more of a ff14 thing. Though im not really a massive final fantasy expert personally.Zitat:
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I also like paladins in general and I understand the JP version is called "Knight" but my ideal version of a "paladin" in any game would have some source of healing, frankly removing it to me would ruin a big reason why i like paladins in the first place.
It's also not like they will ever design a healer that will appeal to me because everything has to be a back line mage healer in ff14, so it's kind of play a paladin who's a tank with strong healing ties or nothing at all for me as the Healing holy knight aesthetic is my main appeal. -
25.11.25, 01:58Azurarok
Stone and Water is usually a black magic spell, Aero started out as White Magic but is usually Blue magic. FFTA's Bishops, who are healers for the Bangaa race, can learn Aero and Water.
I do sometimes wish some jobs can perform a different role instead of pretending to and actually kinda managing two roles at once -
25.11.25, 01:59RedLolly
Yeah, the elemental magic isn't usually associated with White Mage, and was a hanger on from 1.0's unique class Conjurer. The current light magic aesthetic on WHM is actually a much more faithful depiction of past White Mages, however, because the job's usually 95% healing spells, past FF titles either encouraged the player to attach another job's spells to it or vice-versa, or were just on a character that was also another job, as with Garnet and Yuna both also being Summoners.
Paladin is actually one of the earliest examples of a job being one that was designed to equip White Mage skills. FF1 made it the "sub" class of sorts to the Warrior/Tank character if you chose to upgrade it. The heals were weak but it still saw some use.
PLD originally required some CNJ levels and was encouraged to cross class Cure 1 and Raise. A holy knight themed tank with weak heals is PLD's intended design from day 1 of Final Fantasy as a whole. -
25.11.25, 04:58Valence
One thing people haven't been mentioning much is also how tanks are not only self healing machines, which is one thing, but are also perfectly capable healers, which in my opinion, is even worse. And the only reason they're allowed to do that is to ensure that, again, if the healer dies in light parties, then there is still a perfectly capable backup healer on the field. And conveniently, one that cannot die easily.
Even Clemency, which is a fair game and part of PLD's classic identity, has been greatly lowered in cost. Used to cost a kidney - above 2k MP in HW, where tanks at HW launch had barely over 5k MP, and MP certainly didn't regen like today either. -
25.11.25, 09:40Reginald_Cain
People ask to heal more,
Devs remove dps kit from healers and add a bunch of healing buttons they dont need to use because the tank is playing well in casual content.
We need more things to heal than our party if the role wants to improve without ruining the off healer fantasy of jobs like paladin, warrior and red mage. We need more things like dragon heads that need healing, npcs to top off or their death wipes the party.
Tanks healing themselves make sense it's a type of mitigation and fits job fantasy. However if healers feel like they can't fulfill their fantasy then there are infinite other ways to fix that than gutting other roles. -
25.11.25, 10:09Supersnow845Can someone explain to me how Lifesteal and barriers are “warrior fantasy”Zitat:
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Are warriors cosplaying malenia or something
And if the fantasy is being an “off healer” that should imply they are worse healers than the healers which part of the problem is that in casual content they are better healers. Like let’s say we used this NPC idea, WAR could just nascent flash it. Why does nascent flash even heal both anyway -
25.11.25, 11:21Reginald_CainI can't believe you need this explained but fine. WARRIORS bathe in the blood of their enemies. They use rage and adrenaline to ignore pain, and fuel the inner beasts magic inside them which in turn siphons the residual life force/aether from the carnage into healing for the warriors wounds. Same explanation for the barriers but let's be real, what good tank design would be absent of a shield ability? While not all jobs are solely focused on spells and magic ALL jobs are magic infused via their soul crystal.Zitat:
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And Warrior is worse at healing a party of 8 than a healer. Same with every tank. The idea that tanks make healers absolutely irrelevant is incredibly hyperbolic