7.1 - More Wuk Lamat

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Originally Posted by Volgia

You wanna bet? These forums are an echo chamber of negativity because it's the closest this game has to customer complaints. If you hang out here long enough you're gonna end up convincing yourself that everyone hates the game which is just untrue.

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Unsubbed players can't post on the board and plenty of people won't be returning till 7.2/7.3. If anything this is the most positive reception you are going to get besides mentally ill twitter posters and furry discord servers.

Kind of a side point but with new story coming I'll say it. Square....please stop putting in cut scenes when I hand finish a quest. It's so annoying to see the green check mark only to have another cut scene. Grt rid of npc emotes too, that's also incredibly annoying to stand there waiting for emotes to run their course. In terms of this abomination of a character, I knew we wouldn't be getting away from it...

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Originally Posted by RinaB

Grt rid of npc emotes too, that's also incredibly annoying to stand there waiting for emotes to run their course.

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Just imaging the NPC's doing this and nothing else in that scenario.

https://i.imgur.com/hbWq9tS.png

Got folks angry that Wuk Lamat is still here (understandable), and then have people who are upset with people being upset with Wuk Lamat.
I, for one, can bear with it so long as by the end of Dawntrail this character is left on the island (and moving forward I'll be considering turning the voicelines off; I haven't decided on that quite yet). Played a lot of Final Fantasy games and content, and it is by far the least desired character I've ever wanted to be in a party with. And that's with no personal anger attached; it's simply a character I care the least for due to the nature of how overeager the plot was to make me care for it, like a decorative sprig to adorn a plate of food.






"You do you, I do me, and disagreeing isn't bigotry." -- Someone, somewhere, somewhen

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Originally Posted by Teah_Kaye

Honestly, most of the people still playing the game (regardless of opinion, but especially those who are neutral or positive on DT) aren't here on the forums with you guys sinking into the same doom spiral since June/July. It's quite tiresome to read.

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so you are still reading since june /july ? look i got the idea but what else shall we all do? swallow it down and see 14 getting worse and worse ? I mean we still do since SE dont care anymore but still...

Don't expect MSQ alterations until 7.3 at the earliest.

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Originally Posted by Swad

Unsubbed players can't post on the board and plenty of people won't be returning till 7.2/7.3.

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That's a pretty unfalsifiable thing to say. How do you even know that? Like people could take a break from the game, or they could drop it for whatever reason and you can just still justify it on DT 'being bad'

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Originally Posted by Swad

If anything this is the most positive reception you are going to get besides mentally ill twitter posters and furry discord servers.

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Yikes.

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Originally Posted by Dante131

dude after see all this after steam after meta critique and other stuff you still think its just a few people ? btw not liking something is not whining just for your information.

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If only, I didn't like Lyse. I didn't go around 1000 posts saying how she was the symptom of the end of FFXIV. That's what makes it whining.

I miss our goth from another world...
https://64.media.tumblr.com/7c973a68...81cde9c48.gifv

Imagine thinking Wuk Lamat isn't going to be in the patch series content. Peak delusion by the forums once again.

Lets just wait until 8.0 before no more wuk lamat (hopefully)

Yeah I think we already knew that she was going to appear in 7.1, hopefully by 7.4 (when they usually prepare for the next expansion), we will be getting less..

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

Imagine thinking Wuk Lamat isn't going to be in the patch series content. Peak delusion by the forums once again.

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Imagine lacking in reading comprehension that you missed what people are saying.

Most people clearly expect nothing will change and she will still be here. At best some of us just point out if SE care enough they could have change it, it's not an impossible task. But none of us actually expected they care enough, and we were right.

I think it’s great that Wuk is everywhere and that shills defend the slop. We need more competition in the MMO space. A game should have the freedom to fail. No product should be “too big to fail”, because doing otherwise is fundamentally anti-consumer. We should all be ready to drop any live-service game at a moment’s notice. Unfortunately, due to the decline and fall of the West, the internet has replaced all other forms of interaction, so dropping a game is very hard. Part of that is our fault, because we refuse to move on. It’s going to take a lot of work, but eventually people will have to learn to quit their favorite game and find a new favorite. We allowed this to happen, and if we don’t act, it’s going to be our fault if it keeps happening.

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

Nope, you just proved that you just fail even harder.

We "hope/wish" she won't be there. But we "knew" she will be there. There is a huge difference in the two saying, something you seem to be oblivious to.

When I buy a lottery ticket, I "hope" I would win the jackpot (else why would I buy it?), but I also "expect" that I won't because I know the chance of that is close to zero. And I would still be disappointed when it turns out indeed my ticket didn't win anything.

Is that example basic enough for you to comprehend?

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Lottery is chance and probability. You can win or lose sure.

Patch cycle content is definitive MSQ content. There has NEVER been an example where a hated character was not in the patch cycle content. Lyse proved this already. So you can "hope" but your only feeding your own delusion which is my point as it was undeniable fact to anyone without their head in their own ass that she would be present.

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

Lottery is chance and probability. You can win or lose sure.

So you can "hope" but your only feeding your own delusion which is my point as it was undeniable fact to anyone without their head in their own ass that she would be present.

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So you really think the chance of a gaming company listening to feedback and make timely change is less than the chance of winning a lottery jackpot? ... Al'right.

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

So you can "hope" but your only feeding your own delusion which is my point as it was undeniable fact to anyone without their head in their own ass that she would be present.

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Still failing at reading comprehension I see.

No-one deny the "fact" that WL would me present, even as we hope for it. You know what delusion would look like? It gonna look this:

WL is so bad I'm pretty, I'm pretty sure SE would listen and totally remove her for sure!

And that's what delusion would look like. Not "I wish she wouldn't be there but she probably will", that's just acceptance, the very opposite of what you call delusion. The only person here insisting on it is you. You want to put words in other's mouth because you believe it enable you to insult them for something they did not say.

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

So you really think the chance of a gaming company listening to feedback and make timely change is less than the chance of winning a lottery jackpot? ... Al'right.



Still failing at reading comprehension I see.

No-one deny the "fact" that WL would me present, even as we hope for it. You know what delusion would look like? It gonna look this:

WL is so bad I'm pretty, I'm pretty sure SE would listen and totally remove her for sure!

And that's what delusion would look like. Not "I wish she wouldn't be there but she probably will", that's just acceptance, the very opposite of what you call delusion. The only person here insisting on it is you. You want to put words in other's mouth because you believe it enable you to insult them for something they did not say.

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There is and always has been 0% chance that they would have removed Wuk Lamat from patch content. So yeah winning the lottery is actually more likely than the removal of Wuk Lamat from patch series MSQ and Lyse proved this already when she was present all the way to 4.55. To want, hope, assume, she wouldn't be in the patch content is delusional. Point, blank, period.

Just cause you and others have a hard time accepting you are that far gone in your negative circlejerk on the forums doesn't make it any less true. You still delusional.

It was not physically impossible, but 7.1 must have been a fair way through production by the time they received the feedback. Unless wuk was actively detrimental to the point that it would damage the overall company, it’s just not worth the bother jettisoning the work already completed. 7.2 might have less, but given how heavily involved with 7.0 wuk was, the epilogue conclusion is likely to require her presence. Also they probably wouldn’t bother producing another tank for duty support, even if proggo tanko from gubal is precedent. But hey it’ll be pretty easy to see if they’re easing off if any other character manages to get a word in edgeways.

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

There is and always has been 0% chance that they would have removed Wuk Lamat from patch content. So yeah winning the lottery is actually more likely than the removal of Wuk Lamat from patch series MSQ and Lyse proved this already when she was present all the way to 4.55. To want, hope, assume, she wouldn't be in the patch content is delusional. Point, blank, period.

Just cause you and others have a hard time accepting you are that far gone in your negative circlejerk on the forums doesn't make it any less true. You still delusional.

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You have pulled a narrative out of nowhere that we expected Wuk to 100% vanish. Even my OP stated that I had hoped she would just stay in her throne room. No one expected her to just vanish and crate a plot hole. You are arguing against an argument you came up with yourself.

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Originally Posted by Teah_Kaye

Honestly, most of the people still playing the game (regardless of opinion, but especially those who are neutral or positive on DT) aren't here on the forums with you guys sinking into the same doom spiral since June/July. It's quite tiresome to read.

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Great news! You don't have to read it. Here is a nice thread for you:

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...on-Fan-club%21

Oh no..., more Wuk Lamat... qwq
I feel bad for that character. Because she is not bad. She is just thrown hard into our faces muuuuch too often. And now again. I really can't see her anymore. *sigh*

I think something people are having trouble reconciling is 2-fold: For one, CBU3 wrote a bad story. Straight up. And the actual writing from a literary perspective is extraordinarily subpar compared to what we've been receiving for 10 years - even ARR (which, don't put on the grayscale glasses. ARR was actually pretty decent). It's fast-food shonen dribble over-saturated with forced sentiment and unrealistic stakes far surpassing any we've seen up to this point. This coming after we were advertised something completely different. It's really an impressive feat they've pulled off whiplashing the dedicated portion of the player base.

Secondly, the development process is affected by massive undertow. Development of 7.1 was already well on its way when 7.0 released, and it's very likely that the entire story of 7.0-7.55 was already penned up by this point as well (and only needed to be fleshed out). Even if they wanted to do a full 180, it's likely we won't be seeing that for quite a long while. Even worse - the 7.1 story is probably going to perpetuate issues everyone already has with 7.0 which would make changing things even more difficult. Due to SE standing on a financial precipice, Yoshi P is trying to save face by effectively insulting the intelligence of the players by deflecting issues and making statements misrepresenting the concerns of the player base because if he doesn't it could sink the company.

Combine all of this with a complete lack of content to fill the time before 7.2 and it's a recipe for a major financial occurrence within SE. If they're not careful, the business decisions SE has been making siphoning funds away from FF14 are going to finally surface in a massive loss of revenue as players become bored or disenfranchised and end their subscriptions. When operating with a subscription model in place, it's significantly more difficult to regain a discontinued subscription than it is to maintain pre-existing ones, so every lost sub makes recovery from a financial event harder and harder. Throw in typical bad SE business practices and you have the makings of a potential cascade. Of course, one on this magnitude would take several years. Time will tell. This isn't the first time they've been on the verge of an exodus and they honestly don't seem to care nor are they bothered by things currently so we'll just have to see what happens.

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Originally Posted by All_Nonsense

(which, don't put on the grayscale glasses. ARR was actually pretty decent)

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ARR isn't bad as a plot, but it is a horrible story, because it fumbles the other extremely important trait, storytelling, it's a decent plot told horribly, with pacing issues all over the place that would make the worst segments of EW and DT blush for how depraved it is, and this is *after* they severely shaved ARR down, it makes the whole thing an absolute slog to get through when you have to bounce back and forth doing the absolutely most menial tasks imaginable, the worst of which is the segment you have to get the corrupted crystal to reach Garuda, the sequence where Cid regains his memories is also the most bizarre thing, and makes absolutely no sense unless you are a 1.0 character(an understatement that those are the overwhelming minority), or have gone out of your way to look up what it is about, and it is an extremely bad thing when a story requires you to do homework to understand what is going on at all.

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

For the poeople saying that up to 7.3 is locked in, Yoshi-P had an interview this month at PAX Australia where he seems to be saying the opposite.



Seems like they have decided that the players who dislike Wuk Lamat are wrong and only don't like her because she wasn't given proper development, so they intend to angle 7.1 and onward to correct that by having more of her.

full interview is here
https://checkpointgaming.net/feature...-of-dawntrail/

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I don't advocate for people getting fired too often, but... If they truly believe this, then everyone in management in the FFXIV team should be fired yesterday. Once you start treating your customer as if you know better on what they should want and you willingly ignore their complaints, you've lost your place in the circle of business.

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Originally Posted by Coratanni

I don't advocate for people getting fired too often, but... If they truly believe this, then everyone in management in the FFXIV team should be fired yesterday. Once you start treating your customer as if you know better on what they should want and you willingly ignore their complaints, you've lost your place in the circle of business.

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Having been on the receiving end of a MMO that did just that in response to something player's practically begged for over eight years, I'm forced to agree.

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Originally Posted by Coratanni

I don't advocate for people getting fired too often, but... If they truly believe this, then everyone in management in the FFXIV team should be fired yesterday. Once you start treating your customer as if you know better on what they should want and you willingly ignore their complaints, you've lost your place in the circle of business.

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This post feels akin to those ladies who walk into a walmart and demand everyone be fired because they didn't have what they wanted in the store.

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Originally Posted by Coratanni

I don't advocate for people getting fired too often, but... If they truly believe this, then everyone in management in the FFXIV team should be fired yesterday. Once you start treating your customer as if you know better on what they should want and you willingly ignore their complaints, you've lost your place in the circle of business.

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Yeah the interview read like,

"It's players who dont understand the greatness of this character we created, we're going to show you more to prove her greatness!"

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Originally Posted by Volgia

The salt is REAL.

I found her to be fine, this is her story and I enjoyed it. It's the best thing that's happened to these forums because people like you really love to moan and whine about her nonstop.

I don't want them to drop her and skew the story just because a couple of people dislike her, I want them to finish it and move on.

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I would say a lot of people would have no problems if it would be wuks story if wuk wasn’t written like a complete Mary sue. She has no journey because a journey implies you fail and stand back up after a failure. People love heroes stories where the hero struggles and doesn’t always win but comes back after getting down. She doesn’t struggle in any meaningful way at all, and that is just piss boring. It’s the same reason people hate rey “Skywalker” Palpatine, because she can fight a trained sith and mind trick just because she can. Wuk feels like a self insert character at the end of the Dawntrail story. She has a comment for almost every other character interaction that isn’t hers, and don’t forget she buffs you in the end trial while it took all scions in endwalker helping you survive the end singer attack or how shtola calls wuk too ASK IF WE ARE THERE. It’s just completely off the rails self insert at this point in time. Like people call her a shounen protagonist for a reason, she feels like if Naruto Uzumaki was badly written and both do the talk no jutsu a lot. She is portrayed as a underdog that steps up (like Naruto) but has no major setback or failures (unlike Naruto who gets beaten and fails and has major character development over the span of the manga/anime) while wuk doesn't.

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Originally Posted by Volgia

This post feels akin to those ladies who walk into a walmart and demand everyone be fired because they didn't have what they wanted in the store.

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More like being at a restaurant ordering steak and getting soup but paying the same price then asking for the steak only too get soup again (Dawntrail story in a nutshell) so of course people complain.

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Originally Posted by Mortex

I would say a lot of people would have no problems if it would be wuks story if wuk wasn’t written like a complete Mary sue. She has no journey because a journey implies you fail and stand back up after a failure. People love heroes stories where the hero struggles and doesn’t always win but comes back after getting down. She doesn’t struggle in any meaningful way at all, and that is just piss boring. It’s the same reason people hate rey “Skywalker” Palpatine, because she can fight a trained sith and mind trick just because she can. Wuk feels like a self insert character at the end of the Dawntrail story. She has a comment for almost every other character interaction that isn’t hers, and don’t forget she buffs you in the end trial while it took all scions in endwalker helping you survive the end singer attack or how shtola calls wuk too ASK IF WE ARE THERE. It’s just completely off the rails self insert at this point in time. Like people call her a shounen protagonist for a reason, she feels like if Naruto Uzumaki was badly written and both do the talk no jutsu a lot. She is portrayed as a underdog that steps up (like Naruto) but has no major setback or failures (unlike Naruto who gets beaten and fails and has major character development over the span of the manga/anime) while wuk doesn't.

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Please, just because you didn't like her or her journey you don't have to make things up. She has a journey, she struggles with self-confidence, you help her overcome that so she can properly take the reins after Gulool Ja Ja, if you felt it was awkwardly written or didn't like it that's fine. This whole "Mary Sue" business is such a buzzword of nothing. We, the WoL, are a mary sue. The only person who truly hates us is Zenos number 1 fanboy, we literally Deus Ex Machina every single final boss and yet you don't put these criticisms to Meteor. So what gives?

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Originally Posted by Mortex

More like being at a restaurant ordering steak and getting soup but paying the same price then asking for the steak only too get soup again (Dawntrail story in a nutshell) so of course people complain

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You didn't order anything, they offered the steak and you didn't like it. You can tell all your friends you didn't like it, but that's not enough grounds to go and ask for everyone in that restaurant to be fired. You can go and choose to not return to the restaurant too, that's completely fine.

Here's the thing though, a group of people didn't like the game, so they are trying to build a narrative that the only people who would like any of this are either "Mentally ill" or fringe people in discord servers, truth be told some people enjoyed it and most people thought it was fine.

I've put it in other posts, but I've been very critical of this game ever since I joined the forums, and there are reasons why I would drop it, but none of them would be because of an obtuse told story or a divisive main character.

I will just skip the Main Story quests till she never appears again. If they even repeat this in another expansion, i stop playing this game.

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Originally Posted by Volgia

Please, just because you didn't like her or her journey you don't have to make things up. She has a journey, she struggles with self-confidence, you help her overcome that so she can properly take the reins after Gulool Ja Ja, if you felt it was awkwardly written or didn't like it that's fine. This whole "Mary Sue" business is such a buzzword of nothing. We, the WoL, are a mary sue. The only person who truly hates us is Zenos number 1 fanboy, we literally Deux Es Machina every single final boss and yet you don't put these criticisms to Meteor. So what gives?



You didn't order anything, they offered the steak and you didn't like it. You can tell all your friends you didn't like it, but that's not enough grounds to go and ask for everyone in that restaurant to be fired. You can go and choose to not return to the restaurant too, that's completely fine.

Here's the thing though, a group of people didn't like the game, so they are trying to build a narrative that the only people who would like any of this are either "Mentally ill" or fringe people in discord servers, truth be told some people enjoyed it and most people thought it was fine.

I've put it in other posts, but I've been very critical of this game ever since I joined the forums, and there are reasons why I would drop it, but none of them would be because of an obtuse told story or a divisive main character.

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Oh no the poor baby “main” character has self confidence problems for 10 quests oh lord in heaven whatever shall she do….. maybe we talk about tacos and piece again because we didn’t hear that for the 100 times from wuk. Almost all fictional character are not very self confident and trying to sell this as a hero’s journey is kinda uff. I mean I didn’t saw lyse ripping through a dimension to talk no jutsu with zenos. Like even lyse who was a volcano of bad character writing is miles ahead of wuk in that regard. Because lyse at least had some motivation why she does it and not “peace good”.

Also we paid money for the expansion and still pay money monthly for content that does last around 1 month and we wait 4 months for new content in a Story MMO that has a bad story almost no people care about anymore because it has a overbearing Mary sue character. So effectively we still sit in the restaurant and wait for the steak while getting soup. Because you might not believe it but I still like the game and play some times with my friends the non existing content.

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Originally Posted by Volgia

This whole "Mary Sue" business is such a buzzword of nothing. We, the WoL, are a mary sue. The only person who truly hates us is Zenos number 1 fanboy, we literally Deux Es Machina every single final boss and yet you don't put these criticisms to Meteor. So what gives?

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Oh dude, she absolutely is a Mary Sue - almost every scene in DT has Wuk Lamat at the center. Kinda understandeable in the first half, less so in the second. During 7.0 MSQ, the character literally has twice as many words as Sphene, a character who is not introduced until the latter third of the story. The writing constantly pushed other characters in the background so they could make Wuk Lamat talk.

I don't dislike Wuk Lamat as a character, however the way the writers pushed her into the spotlight during the story is very noticeable.

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Originally Posted by Volgia

This whole "Mary Sue" business is such a buzzword of nothing. We, the WoL, are a mary sue. The only person who truly hates us is Zenos number 1 fanboy, we literally Deus Ex Machina every single final boss and yet you don't put these criticisms to Meteor. So what gives?

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wanna say that WoL/meteor is mary sue ? really ? like the end of ARR didn't happened ? didn't lost our "power" in guardian of the lake ? we saved haurchefrant ? saved papalymo ? minfillia ? wol didn't get his b*tt kicked twice by zenos ? prevented y'shtola to being cut in half ? we can go on like this, you know if we really want to list every time wol failed
you probably don't know what is mary/gary sue then.

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Originally Posted by fioravictorine

Yeah the interview read like,

"It's players who dont understand the greatness of this character we created, we're going to show you more to prove her greatness!"

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These quotes from the interview are hilarious:

"She’s a very complex character, and she even has a bit of a complex about herself. ... But again, we’re going to be reflecting that learning into [content patch 7.1] and onward, we’re hoping that we can show more of what makes Wuk Lamat so great, and I’m hoping that we can regain from there."

And people call everyone here with just a modicum of standards the delusional ones.

Not only is Wuk one of the most simplistic characters in all of media, the fact that they are just double-downing on this failure and concluding that flooding us with more Wuk is the solution is asinine to me.

The comment about using feedback for 7.1 also proves that yes, they could have course corrected for Wuk in 7.1 - unlike so many here who have decided that 1-2 hours of story can't be amended in 5 months of time. They said themselves that they absolutely can use feedback for 7.1 - they just took our feedback to mean that we need more Wuk as we are all too dumb to realize how complex and amazing she is.

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Originally Posted by Volgia

Please, just because you didn't like her or her journey you don't have to make things up. She has a journey, she struggles with self-confidence, you help her overcome that so she can properly take the reins after Gulool Ja Ja, if you felt it was awkwardly written or didn't like it that's fine. This whole "Mary Sue" business is such a buzzword of nothing. We, the WoL, are a mary sue. The only person who truly hates us is Zenos number 1 fanboy, we literally Deus Ex Machina every single final boss and yet you don't put these criticisms to Meteor. So what gives?

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The difference is though that the WoL is the player character. Yes they are a Mary sue but also the avatar of the player in a jrpg.
Wuk Lamat is the mirror of the WoL and would have been fine in her own game or a side story but here you have a main character that does main character things in a game that already has a main character while pushing the player character aside

Her self confidence has no catalyst to be overcome it just happens as well as her physical growth. It’s just there suddenly.
I don’t disagree that she had some kind of difference between the start of DT and the end but the progress was just not there.

If we call the WoL a Mary sue then we can also do that for Wuk Lamat because both are the same.
I really think she being the mirror of the WoL was even the intention of the writers.

A Mary sue is not necessarily a bad tool for a story but it has to fit and the only reason it works for the WoL is because they are the silent avatar of the player.

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Originally Posted by Voidmage

The difference is though that the WoL is the player character. Yes they are a Mary sue but also the avatar of the player in a jrpg.
Wuk Lamat is the mirror of the WoL and would have been fine in her own game or a side story but here you have a main character that does main character things in a game that already has a main character while pushing the player character aside

Her self confidence has no catalyst to be overcome it just happens as well as her physical growth. It’s just there suddenly.
I don’t disagree that she had some kind of difference between the start of DT and the end but the progress was just not there.

If we call the WoL a Mary sue then we can also do that for Wuk Lamat because both are the same.
I really think she being the mirror of the WoL was even the intention of the writers.

A Mary sue is not necessarily a bad tool for a story but it has to fit and the only reason it works for the WoL is because they are the silent avatar of the player.

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About the WoL - our journey had us grow as a character over 10 years.

Wuk is someone written to have barely left the palace, yet after being a dimwit for 2 patches and having everyone around her solve her problems for her, she can believe in herself and fall through a dimensional rift she randomly finds and outdamage in one attack the work of 8 WoL's over the prior 10 minutes. It's so eyerolling.

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Originally Posted by ovIm

Oh dude, she absolutely is a Mary Sue - almost every scene in DT has Wuk Lamat at the center. Kinda understandeable in the first half, less so in the second. During 7.0 MSQ, the character literally has twice as many words as Sphene, a character who is not introduced until the latter third of the story. The writing constantly pushed other characters in the background so they could make Wuk Lamat talk.

I don't dislike Wuk Lamat as a character, however the way the writers pushed her into the spotlight during the story is very noticeable.

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I typically hate TVTropes, but it has a page that almost perfectly describes Wuk Lamat, especially at the end.

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The very laws of the universe bend to accommodate her. If there's only one in a million chance she could succeed at something, she'll accomplish it with flying colors. If the logical outcome of the story would end in her failure, a Deus ex Machina will ensure her victory. Nothing is too implausible for her to accomplish, whether it be going from Rags to Royalty, killing an Eldritch Abomination, or bringing about world peace. Even the most disdainful and unmoving characters will be Easily Impressed with her. Is there some great deity of unimaginable power in the setting? Expect her to have them astounded by her abilities. If she is so inclined, she may do all that before sitting down to a breakfast consisting of the original story.

...

Because of this, the character just ends up rather boring to witness. Heroes might be naturally predisposed to winning and some villains might never seem to be taken care of, but Black Hole Sue does away with anything resembling logic to prop up the characters. It stops being a story and just becomes more like a fictionalized resume of improbably fantastic deeds.

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https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.p...n/BlackHoleSue

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Originally Posted by Voidmage

Wuk Lamat is the mirror of the WoL ...

I really think she being the mirror of the WoL was even the intention of the writers.
…

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Zenos is the mirror of the player and they killed him off. Really makes you think.

The WoL is not a Mary Sue, the WoL is a powerful weapon that gets used and abused to political ends, manipulated into doing things they shouldn't, and has to watch as problems outside the scope of punching things go wrong like political failings of countries and leaders. That's much more interesting as a story than anything Wuk Lamat has going on.
The WoL has flaws, that they have basically no power other than just htting stuff hard, and in many cases hitting stuff hard just makes the situation worse.

Wuk Lamat is a character who is fawned over in every possible way, she has brief stints of impostor syndrome that go away conveniently, is good at both combat and leadership, her only flaw is she gets sad sometimes before eating a taco and immediately recovering and her tendency to be too trusting, which never really hurts her and she never really grows out of.
She's a character who is static, doesn't change at all, everything around her changes instead as they tell her how great she is. She's the same from start to end, just entirely misunderstood and once charcters understand her greatness they just fall in line and give her their full support. That's a Mary Sue if I've ever seen one.

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Originally Posted by fulminating

Zenos is the mirror of the player and they killed him off. Really makes you think.

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honestly, i'd rather follow zenos around for an entire expansion and teach him the power of friendship and lov - i mean unity.

love wuk but she'd make a better side character.

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

The WoL is not a Mary Sue, the WoL is a powerful weapon that gets used and abused to political ends, manipulated into doing things they shouldn't, and has to watch as problems outside the scope of punching things go wrong like political failings of countries and leaders. That's much more interesting as a story than anything Wuk Lamat has going on.
The WoL has flaws, that they have basically no power other than just htting stuff hard, and in many cases hitting stuff hard just makes the situation worse.

Wuk Lamat is a character who is fawned over in every possible way, she has brief stints of impostor syndrome taht go away conveniently, is good at both combat and leadership, her only flaw is she gets sad sometimes before eating a taco and immediately recovering and her tendency to be too trusting, which never really hurts her and she never really grows out of.
She's a character who is static, doesn't change at all, everything around her changes instead as they tell her how great she is. She's the same from start to end, just entirely misunderstood and once charcters understand her greatness they just fall in line and give her their full support. That's a Mary Sue if I've ever seen one.

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I absolutely find the WoL to be a Mary Sue. It's just an acceptable Mary Sue to me.

The number of combat arts and crafts I can out-master the masters in a short period of time always makes me laugh. How many elders that just simply have no more to teach us as we easily surpass them.

We are often the special snowflake, the catalyst for everything, and way more involved in shaping world politics with our support than we should be. Especially in DT - where I still have no idea how my WoL would even support the claim to the throne by someone like Wuk. But it was clearly our presence that tipped the scales for her.

We are the player character though so I find this to be fine. Especially since some of us have spent 10+ years developing our characters. With all we have done, we are exceptional.

Wuk is also a Mary Sue, but in the most unearned ways possible.

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Originally Posted by ZephyrMenodora

About the WoL - our journey had us grow as a character over 10 years.

Wuk is someone written to have barely left the palace, yet after being a dimwit for 2 patches and having everyone around her solve her problems for her, she can believe in herself and fall through a dimensional rift she randomly finds and outdamage in one attack the work of 8 WoL's over the prior 10 minutes. It's so eyerolling.

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If the healers are willing to stay and keep the actual party alive, everyone else can get up from their computers and Wuk will clear the trial on her own. I think you can go AFK during combat in every duty with Wuk as an NPC and she'll clear it on her own.