Should the devs appologise to the community

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Originally Posted by Theodric

No, I don't believe so because:

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Uh, didn't think I had to spell it out, but I was just shit posting.

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Originally Posted by sindriiisgaming

should the developers appologise for the state of the game?

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Personally, I'm not particularly interested an apology, I want results, I want hires and I want fresh blood and ideas brought into the mix.

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Originally Posted by DiaDeem

Uh, didn't think I had to spell it out, but I was just shit posting.

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Fair enough though there's multiple posters around these parts who regularly imply similar things in all seriousness.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

How do you know they didn't expect that Variant/Criterion and Deep Dungeon and Island Sanctuary would provide that staying power? That's my problem with the way you're putting this. You're putting intent on the developers when you have no proof of what their intent or thinking was. The choice they made was not having an exploratory zone. That doesn't immediately mean they weren't trying to give players something that would last.

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You can have whatever 'problem' with my post as you like. I've explained my reasoning multiple times now and you're simply moving the goalposts after I called out your attempt to try and negate the context of my initial post and frame it as something completely different.

You're no longer discussing my initial post and seem to simply be trying to further obscure my intent with unrelated elements that neither of us can possibly prove one way or the other.

That being said, given that they're in charge of the game if they truly believed that the current offerings in Endwalker would be enough 'staying power' then I think that'd be rather worrying. They've also deliberately gone out of their way to make every relic weapon step revolve around tomestones with no attempt to tie it to any of the new content.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Fair enough though there's multiple posters around these parts who regularly imply similar things in all seriousness.

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Oh no, I get that. But read OP's post and then go back to mine lol

All jokes aside, I don't think any apology is really needed. I just want them to talk to us. I've filled 4 feedback surveys for Star Rail during the sixish months I've been playing. I've filled one survey for XIV in 10 years of playing, and it was the 10 year anniversary thingy they made. They should be sending surveys every patch. But an apology? I find that a bit silly, thus my shit post.

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Originally Posted by sindriiisgaming

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Short answer - nope.

Long answer - They have nothing whatsoever to "apologize" for. They've made a game that continues to be successful and with each expansion increases in the size of its active playerbase (EW included). Hundreds of thousands of people are playing the game and having fun. Just because any proverbial "you" is not means nothing deserving of an "apology"; that's incredibly egocentric.

Cash shop? It's all cosmetics. Meaningless to me, have never bought anything on it, but the only "clear nature" of it from my view is that it's NOT a P2W feature, which is all that matters to me.

No change? They actually went in a significantly different direction this expansion with things like IS, Variant/Criterion, etc.. You can debate how successful those were, but there were most definitely unique features included. Or do you mean the standard formula of how content in general is released? In that case, your disappointment is my enjoyment. I like the type of content being released and the timing of it.

Content vs. what I pay for? I get far more content out of FFXIV each month than I get on any of the streaming services I also pay monthly subs for.

6 months between patches in 7.0? Umm - say what? Exaggerations like that only look pathetic and undermine any attempt at having a point.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Personally, I'm not particularly interested an apology, I want results, I want hires and I want fresh blood and ideas brought into the mix.

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You didn't read the interviews cause EW HAS been new people with new ideas. It says something when Yoshi himself is saying to up difficulty and make things less straight forward. The new folks are still find their stride

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

You didn't read the interviews cause EW HAS been new people with new ideas. It says something when Yoshi himself is saying to up difficulty and make things less straight forward. The new folks are still find their stride

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ARR battle system team: Kei Sato, Takashi Kawamoto, Hikaru Tamaki, Tsuyoshi Yokozawa

Endwalker battle system team: Kei Sato, Takashi Kawamoto, Hikaru Tamaki, Hironori Isami

IMO this is the root of the problem outside of perhaps Yoshida himself (Or the financing department holding him to ransom). The battle system team (aka class designers) are stretched too thin, the team should have been expanded long ago or another team should have been bought in on consultancy terms to feed the internal team with idea filled whiteboards for them to pick and choose from.

No. They are doing what is making them money as a business. They should keep doing that.

That said I don't think the game is for me anymore so once.my sub expires in December I'm pretty much done.

I'm not the playerbase. I'm a drop in the ocean.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

You're no longer discussing my initial post and seem to simply be trying to further obscure my intent with unrelated elements that neither of us can possibly prove one way or the other.

That being said, given that they're in charge of the game if they truly believed that the current offerings in Endwalker would be enough 'staying power' then I think that'd be rather worrying. They've also deliberately gone out of their way to make every relic weapon step revolve around tomestones with no attempt to tie it to any of the new content.

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Now who's moving the goalposts? Where would they have any data that something wouldn't jive with the playerbase unless they put it out there and got feedback and participation numbers on it? These forums cry every day about how 4 man content needs to be harder. What would tell the developers that Criterion would be so badly received when that's a constant request from the community? In one of the recent interviews where Eureka was mentioned, I got the impression they didn't think was going to be nearly as divisive as it was.

And I don't like tomes for relics but they're doing what they've always done. You had ARR and people didn't fully like that. They tweaked it some for HW. They completely changed the format for SB. They tweaked it some again for ShB. And now they've massively changed the format again. They don't know until they release something how it's going to be reacted to.

And as you said in the first part of what I quoted, neither of us can prove their intent with things one way or another. But only one of us keeps accusing them of deliberately leaving things out instead of trying new things like they've always done.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Personally, I'm not particularly interested an apology, I want results, I want hires and I want fresh blood and ideas brought into the mix.

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I want results too, but ehhh... if you read the recent interviews, new blood is exactly what they got and it might be one of the reasons the content has been so "mid".

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

ARR battle system team: Kei Sato, Takashi Kawamoto, Hikaru Tamaki, Tsuyoshi Yokozawa

Endwalker battle system team: Kei Sato, Takashi Kawamoto, Hikaru Tamaki, Hironori Isami

IMO this is the root of the problem outside of perhaps Yoshida himself (Or the financing department holding him to ransom). The battle system team (aka class designers) are stretched too thin, the team should have been expanded long ago or another team should have been bought in on consultancy terms to feed the internal team with idea filled whiteboards for them to pick and choose from.

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This is why I opt to not blame CBU3 for the majority of this. Patches wouldn't take so long if SE gave the game the funding and manpower it deserves. Get some of the FF7 Remake folks over hear to help with battle elements and rpg mechanics (for example). But SE won't do that sadly. I 100% believe the devs want XIV to be it's best but they only get so much help from higher ups. Ofc I don't know this for sure but it makes sense based on what we've seen

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

Now who's moving the goalposts? Where would they have any data that something wouldn't jive with the playerbase unless they put it out there and got feedback and participation numbers on it? These forums cry every day about how 4 man content needs to be harder. What would tell the developers that Criterion would be so badly received when that's a constant request from the community? In one of the recent interviews where Eureka was mentioned, I got the impression they didn't think was going to be nearly as divisive as it was.

And I don't like tomes for relics but they're doing what they've always done. You had ARR and people didn't fully like that. They tweaked it some for HW. They completely changed the format for SB. They tweaked it some again for ShB. And now they've massively changed the format again. They don't know until they release something how it's going to be reacted to.

And as you said in the first part of what I quoted, neither of us can prove their intent with things one way or another. But only one of us keeps accusing them of deliberately leaving things out instead of trying new things like they've always done.

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I'm not moving the goalposts. Once again, you're implying that I claimed intent on behalf of the development team. I did not. You took a post of mine - in response to another poster attempting to brush off concerns about the lack of content with staying power - and attempted to portray it as something completely different.

The back and forth since has involved you attempting to lead the 'discussion' in a completely different direction altogether.

It doesn't hugely matter to me what they did or did not intend. What matters to me is that Endwalker is woefully lacking in terms of content with staying power, the development team are doubling down on content without staying power in the expansion's patch cycle and the vast majority of people I play the game with are either taking a break or have quit altogether due to having very little to engage with compared to previous expansions.

Yes they should.
And they should come clean which forum/players are the ones being taken into cosideration as "feedback", and give said players a distiction on forums and also give a public reviewing process to grant such distiction.

And Yoshida should start to post/reply at least once a week on random GENERAL topics, in English, French and German.
And for inclusion sake, Spanish and Portuguese too.

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Originally Posted by Snorky

Omg Kes you're making too much sense! How can you how dare you not go along with the doom narrative! Don't you know the sky is falling! How can you tell people to just stop paying for being kicked around! J/k I agree and you said it well.

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its a character flaw I suppose. that and I have been to this kind of dance before. seen games where the devs listened, and the game became unidentifiable garbage no one wanted to play, and see where the company said "our way or the highway" and became a game no one wanted to play.

there are some serious issues, there are legitimate beefs, there is also a LOT of whining. its a game forum so that is rather expected. everyone, some of us more than others, have views of the game WE personally want... but the stark reality is, its not our game. I am sure if some of the more vociferous doomsayers came up with their own game, Yoshi would love the competition.

but I will not hold my breath while they do.

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Originally Posted by sindriiisgaming

Please try to leave constructive replies instead of just saying anything to be heard
I've been toying with this question in my mind basically since around 6.2 when it became obvious this game was'nt going to deliver any real of meaningful change.. seeing the clear nature of the cash shop and the exploitation in the games current content output vs what we pay our sub for, anbd ofcourse that 7.0 will be a min of 6months between patches of basically... nothing...

should the developers appologise for the state of the game?

and if not... what level of accountability SHOULD we hold them to? if any..

(ofcourse this is just a question i am not demanding this or that people do this so please read it properly before you start attacking me)

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Now I might take some hate for this but shoot ill say it. Have you all ever played other mmo's before especially ones from Aria games. Namely stuff like Scarlet Blade, Have you guys played elsword, have you guys ever seen Josh strife hayes worse mmo? Ever played tera online. I mean the reason I ask is cause Yes this game has its faults but jesus from the forum perspective your making me think this game only has at most 30 ppl online. XD I mean just reading all the doom post on ff14 forums I gotta ask. IF the game is in such a terrible state why are you all forcing yourself to stay why not quit and go play something better. :o why subject yourself to this torture. You guys know what the definition of insanity is why subject yourself to that level of madness?

No, this is no different than every other xpac at this point into it.

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Originally Posted by Alexandre_Noireau

Yes they should.
And they should come clean which forum/players are the ones being taken into cosideration as "feedback", and give said players a distiction on forums and also give a public reviewing process to grant such distiction.

And Yoshida should start to post/reply at least once a week on random GENERAL topics, in English, French and German.
And for inclusion sake, Spanish and Portuguese too.

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Most likely, they look at forum posts and cherry pick posts. So one poster might say "Change 1 and Change 2" because 1 and 2 are both required to work in tandem, but they'll just think "Change 1 is reasonable" because some people don't want Change 2. and then implement Change 1; then they get backlash afterwards because Change 1 doesn't work in a vacuum and feels incomplete without Change 2.

So if they were to actually pull which forum players they are taken into consideration as feedback and attempt to "quote" them as per usual SE standard tactic, they'll just get backlash all the same for misinterpreting the posts. Even if they didn't do that they still have issues with misinterpretation of posts in general. It isn't the first time this type of misinterpretation has happened. The 'go play ultimate' on healers in the Q&A is still vivid in my mind -- and the question wasn't healer difficulty but healer engagement.

we dont need a speech written by a pr firm, as my parents and many others use to say, actions speak louder than words.

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Originally Posted by Hysterior

Yes. Each of them owe each of us an apology and a foot massage.

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Originally Posted by sindriiisgaming

its ok to just say no. the theatrics are unnesscesary

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Keep the Theatrics, and the Apology.
I want the Foot Massage.

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Originally Posted by sindriiisgaming

i would honestly suggest you read some of the other threads in this forum, for example for 6.5 interview. you will not see a happy playerbase. i assure you, ITS NOT JUST ME

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You don't speak for everyone though.

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Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

Keep the Theatrics, and the Apology.
I want the Foot Massage.

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Oh yes, me too!

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Originally Posted by Kes13a

its a character flaw I suppose. that and I have been to this kind of dance before. seen games where the devs listened, and the game became unidentifiable garbage no one wanted to play, and see where the company said "our way or the highway" and became a game no one wanted to play.

there are some serious issues, there are legitimate beefs, there is also a LOT of whining. its a game forum so that is rather expected. everyone, some of us more than others, have views of the game WE personally want... but the stark reality is, its not our game. I am sure if some of the more vociferous doomsayers came up with their own game, Yoshi would love the competition.

but I will not hold my breath while they do.

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Same. I mean, I came to FFXIV from a game where the Community Manager was (and probably still is) a spiteful POS. Said CM outright said, in a livestream, that there was no real point in the game's forum/social media communities asking for anything as the only feedback they really cared about was the in-game metrics, with the underlying implication that players should stop asking for anything.
That CM even went so far as to create two (2017 and 2021) polls on Twitter asking what players most wanted to come next... and then completely ignored the results.

And the moderators on that game's forums? Totally adverse to any/all forms of negativity or criticism on any level. I was permabanned from that game's official forum for expressing a negative opinion; in a thread the CM created pertaining to "better communication" I commented that the CM (same one I've described above) needed to learn how to use a spellcheck and how to proof-read his sloppy blogs and news posts (since they were/are always filled with spelling errors, poor grammar, and incorrect dates), and actually learn how to make a professional looking customer-facing product. I also noted that there wasn't really any viable excuse for said CM's work to be so sloppy after six years and a promotion. My account became inaccessible the next day.

And thanks to the Devs doing whatever their cherry-picked metrics told them and nothing else, that game turned into a gamblebox fueled mess.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

That being said, given that they're in charge of the game if they truly believed that the current offerings in Endwalker would be enough 'staying power' then I think that'd be rather worrying. They've also deliberately gone out of their way to make every relic weapon step revolve around tomestones with no attempt to tie it to any of the new content.

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This is what happens when the target audience shifts from Final Fantasy fans and mmorpg players to people who actually care about adventurer plates and sit in venues all day. How could they possibly be burdened with the thought of having to invest time in battle content when they can entertain themselves for hours on end by treating the game as a chat lobby?

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Originally Posted by Ivtrix

You woulda been flabbergasted at all the apologies they put out for 1.0

Also do none of you guys actually read at all can you not look up and read Theodrics post which makes some good points as to why “send a message with your wallet” is not nearly as powerful as you think it is?

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What is exactly more powerful than not giving them money? If you truly think something needs changing, if the numbers drop, they are bound to rethink their tacticts. If there's no demand for what they're supplying, they have to adjust to the demand, it's capitalism 101.

And I've seen the apologies and how far they went with those, but if anyone thinks current time XIV needs the same level of apologies... that's just weird.

lmao I just realized the irony of the OP asking for constructive posts in this terrible thread lol

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Originally Posted by Midare

What is exactly more powerful than not giving them money? If you truly think something needs changing, if the numbers drop, they are bound to rethink their tacticts. If there's no demand for what they're supplying, they have to adjust to the demand, it's capitalism 101.

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The thing more powerful than devs/SE not getting money…is devs/SE getting money lol. And however they seem to be doing it, it’s working for them. I mean, there’s already (supposedly) been major player drop-off and lapsed subs as Endwalker continued. If such a thing were to happen wouldn’t it already have happened? If that isn’t enough to make them change tactics, I don’t imagine they’ll really care if they drop a few more subs. Not when they can just put some sexy glamours in Mogstation to make the ‘young players’ start whaling. Which, again, seems to be working out for them lol.

For better or worse they’ve all but confirmed Dawntrail is going to be the exact same design-wise as Endwalker, even though there’s very blatant issues with Endwalker. Even if the sub count literally hit 0 I genuinely think they would just huff some heavy copium and say ‘oh young people just don’t like ff or mmos anymore’ (like how they apparently all ‘don’t like JRPGs’ lol), and never actually admit it was caused their own ignorance and complacency

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Originally Posted by Midare

What is exactly more powerful than not giving them money? If you truly think something needs changing, if the numbers drop, they are bound to rethink their tacticts. If there's no demand for what they're supplying, they have to adjust to the demand, it's capitalism 101.

And I've seen the apologies and how far they went with those, but if anyone thinks current time XIV needs the same level of apologies... that's just weird.

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They supplement from other revenue sources. This would be a more powerful tactic if XIV/CBU3 was a closed loop on cash. It isnt. This is like.... econ 101 lol.

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Originally Posted by Midare

What is exactly more powerful than not giving them money? If you truly think something needs changing, if the numbers drop, they are bound to rethink their tacticts. If there's no demand for what they're supplying, they have to adjust to the demand, it's capitalism 101.

And I've seen the apologies and how far they went with those, but if anyone thinks current time XIV needs the same level of apologies... that's just weird.

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I always find it funny that people like the one you responded to feel its better to keep giving people money they have issues with as opposed to not (cause it takes money to post on this forum if some people weren't aware). People like that think that if money from subs stop then everything will change which is honestly not as much money as they hope it will be. Keep in mind that SE updates their cash shop MONTHLY (doesn't take more than 5 mins to see how often they put out 'optional items' updates). That essentially means that even if 1k people quit that month, if 250 ish were buying from the cash shop from that same month, they really wouldn't feel the sting.

I think the more critical point some people need to admit to themselves is that this game will never be whatever it is they want it to be. Whether you like Yoshida's development style, at least the man has been straight forward about it and doesn't give fake apologies/promises to do 'better in future updates' like other developers do (WoW comes to mind). So again for 10293473928374 time, if people aren't jiving with the game and its development direction, take a break or move on because if you really dig and compare between expansions, a lot of core things have remained the same (like tomes, trials, raid sizes, when each type of content is released on which patch number, etc).

I don't think they need to apologise. I think we just need to have patience. take's them a long time to make a mmo , how long do you think it take them to make a dungeon, this is not runescape classic

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Originally Posted by Ivtrix

They supplement from other revenue sources. This would be a more powerful tactic if XIV/CBU3 was a closed loop on cash. It isnt. This is like.... econ 101 lol.

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Regardless of what impact it might have on the game's financial health, as player feedback it can send a message. "The game is no longer enjoyable".

Small numbers will get written off as normal attrition. Unusually large numbers will draw attention - what has changed so these players no longer want to play. Does something need to be changed to try to draw them back or at least avoid further cancellations.

Sticking around thinking things will change if people are loud enough in the forums isn't very likely to accomplish anything. The gap in feedback communication between the devs and NA/EU players has become very noticeable in the wake of the latest round of interviews that YoshiP did.

Easy to say "devs aren't listening to us" but I wonder if it's more that the Community Team is spending too much time playing marketing/PR and not enough time being the link between devs and players that a Community Team should be. Even that may not be their fault depending on who wrote their job descriptions.

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Originally Posted by Renalt

No. They are doing what is making them money as a business. They should keep doing that.

That said I don't think the game is for me anymore so once.my sub expires in December I'm pretty much done.

I'm not the playerbase. I'm a drop in the ocean.

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Will this be an Aveyond situation where we countdown to December and then you'll be back by March 2024? lol

(Just to be clear, I have no issues with you as a poster. Just being snarky).

i'm tired of getting apologies for the housing system breaking or them making blm too strong in pvp or the servers not being able to handle the load or the world transfer system immediately breaking when it came out and trapping people in the lifestream between DCs or the non-apology we got for oceania servers taking so long to get and them routing the traffic across the pacific ocean twice because it was a thinly veiled attempt to pacify the JP server racists who didn't like oceania/australian players and the apology we got for them trying to take away hrothgar hair and the apology we got for them making stormblood such a miserable-ass expansion where we had 3 whole zones that basically didn't get used because they got too caught up in getting to design final fantasy japan to actually progress the story in ala mhigo or the apology we got for eureka being so painful because they wanted us to "learn and cooperate" which meant not describing anything and forcing people to trail and error for 500 trillion weeks in a row or the apology we got for the login queue system not being designed for more than like 4k players and if you were unfortunate you'd get to only 1 player being left in queue only for it to kick you because it turns out it was broken and thought you disconnected like eons ago or the apology we got for the grapes (which they didn't need to apologize for) or the apology we got because apparently eorzea was homophobic and same-gendered players couldn't marry eachother or the apology we got for when they were planning on locking behind all new viera/hrothgar hairstyles behind the online store or the apology we got for them saying that we'd get hats that worked for us in the future and then tried to backtrack on that or the apology we got for the achievements not working back in ARR or the apology we got for them introducing new housing wards only for 99% of them to be dedicated to FCs only resulting in 500 trillion new FCs being made with only a couple players in it and resulting in a virtual housing real estate market where like 5 players owned 70% of all the houses or the apology we got for them ruining the online store aka cutting off their nose to spite the face because of a few RMT websites or the apology we got for them repeatedly inflicting the same mid-boss theme on us for several years in a row that coincided with the twin's mystical oohh mysterious mysteries theme or the apology we got for the dungeon "revamps" that still needed to be done but got way, way, WAY dumbed down so the trusts could continue to be brainless and useless or the apology we got for ast being overpowered and then their nerfing which made the class really unfun to play or the fact that they can't stop changing how mch/mnk play every expansion and change them so radically each time that they never resemble the class you played in the last expansion or--

the run-on sentence can keep going.

tl;dr: i don't want another apology.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

This is what happens when the target audience shifts from Final Fantasy fans and mmorpg players to people who actually care about adventurer plates and sit in venues all day. How could they possibly be burdened with the thought of having to invest time in battle content when they can entertain themselves for hours on end by treating the game as a chat lobby?

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Such close minded logic. Yeah because apparently FF/MMO fans can't care about ROLE PLAYING in an MMORPG...
Do you think before you type? Role Playing is quite literally part of the package and folks focusing on that are no lesser than folks who focus on battle content.

Nope, but you can tell them how happy you are with your wallet.

As far as SE cares FFXIV is there biggest cash cow to date. Which will always inform them that the mass majority are happy enough with there server.
Honestly, I like the break and the slow down it, sure I keep my sub year round as I have an ingame house. But it also isn't a job to get gear and keep up with content.
I can log in once every 2 weekends do a few things, and play the other 10 games the peak my interest vs always being rushed to get gear only for it to be pointless in 3 months.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

This is what happens when the target audience shifts from Final Fantasy fans and mmorpg players to people who actually care about adventurer plates and sit in venues all day. How could they possibly be burdened with the thought of having to invest time in battle content when they can entertain themselves for hours on end by treating the game as a chat lobby?

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Always makes me laugh when instead of blaming the company, you blame people creating their own content by going to venues or just using the game as a social/hangout simulator

Protip : People going to venues doesnt mean SE shouldnt be creating content for those that want it, if they say that to any extent, then it's them using venue goers or people using it for the social aspect as a scapegoat from responsibilities because they just dont want to create proper content so they'd rather put the blame on the playerbase for creating its own content

Should they apologise? To who? You? Me? That's absurd. The only tangible duties they owe are to shareholders.

What level of accountability should they be held to? We're consumers, if you don't like the product we take our money elsewhere. If you can't bring yourself to do that, you're an addict. Simple as.

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Originally Posted by Anonemoose

Should they apologise? To who? You? Me? That's absurd. The only tangible duties they owe are to shareholders.

What level of accountability should they be held to? We're consumers, if you don't like the product we take our money elsewhere. If you can't bring yourself to do that, you're an addict. Simple as.

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"how to silence feedback 101"

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Originally Posted by Stormpeaks

"how to silence feedback 101"

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Are they fully wrong though? 1.0 only became 2.0 because folks took their money elsewhere. I've said this many times but franchises like Madden suck every year because folks keep lining up to pay for the game. It's simple business logic. Money talks and will aways be louder than words.

Oh btw none of what they said even remotely hints at or actively silences feedback...we're not misrepresenting what folks are saying still are we?

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Originally Posted by Stormpeaks

"how to silence feedback 101"

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Pretty sure people like you are immune to silence

In this age of social media, it's impossible to silence feedback. All you need to do is hop onto TikTok, Twitter X, Instagram, etc. and let it all out.

Considering how many companies have at least one employee if not a team of employees focused on social media communication, it's obvious how important they feel social media is compared to other avenues of communication that they don't seem to interact with.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

In this age of social media, it's impossible to silence feedback. All you need to do is hop onto TikTok, Twitter X, Instagram, etc. and let it all out.

Considering how many companies have at least one employee if not a team of employees focused on social media communication, it's obvious how important they feel social media is compared to other avenues of communication that they don't seem to interact with.

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What a pity that instead all we had here was Tweetingway, until they seemingly left SE.