Can 7.0 focus on a storyline without the philosophizing

I'd prefer if they didn't. A lot of what was listed are the main reasons I love the story for this game.

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Originally Posted by TheDecay

We really don't need another lecture on the meaning of life or existentialism. We don't need to watch yet another monologue on how life is worth living and we can still have purpose even if we fail and suffer, or how humans have free will and we need to fight for our purpose and choose our purpose even if we might fail, defying our fate and the purpose others impose on us (basically existentialism).

It's quite enough, CBU3. Please find some new material. Please write a story with nuanced and interesting character development perhaps, that isn't just traveling with 7 people who just alternate between "you are my friend and I appreciate you" or "don't die on me".

EW had barely any character development, and now FF16 doesn't have it either (other than maybe Joshua). It's like character arcs no longer exist in CBU3 games, giving way to the philosophy and life lessons that CBU3 wants you to remember. Which is fine once or twice but it is seriously getting tiring and tedious when it's the twentieth time the same moral of the story gets repeated again and again.

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Completely agree. Time to bury the hatchet and try something new.

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Originally Posted by Lunalepsy

Completely agree. Time to bury the hatchet and try something new.

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New like what exactly? Have any ideas? Cause I can't say ARR, HW, SB, ShB or EW do the same thing or touch on the same story beats. People hyperbolize quite a bit

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Strawman argument 101

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Fact. There were posts here calling for SE staff to be fired. Criticism? You lot are so unhappy with all of it, the part that makes me laugh the hardest is that it doesnt matter WHAT the devs do , someone here will be complaining.

Each of you wants something different, each of you will yowl when you dont get your way. Theres no consensus, no commonality.

BTW Im going to ask what I asked Mr Art Critic Aveyond the OverLoud: how do you know what you want is what the players want? How do you know that the changes you suggest will be well received? How do you know what you want is what OTHERS want?

You DO NOT speak for the "majority", despite all the bleating we see here.

To go back to the earlier metaphor: you are in the restaurant telling the owner that your "new menu" is what the customers will want...when it could in fact have the direct opposite effect, you are in HIS business telling them "you know best" when in fact you have no way of knowing whether or not what you propose will even WORK? How do you know that your suggested changes are what others want?

How do you know that what you are demanding WONT cause the customers to go elsewhere? Clive Cussler didnt one day decide to go and kill off Dirk Pitt because "we should kill people off to make it interesting with a fresh cast", he was a successful novelist who KNEW because his books were all bestsellers that this is what his readers WANTED.

David Weber decided NOT to kill off Honor Harrington because he KNEW that wasnt what his readers wanted. Just the opposite. The setup and cast they have now in FF 14 are highly successful, and outside this little echo chamber NO ONE here knows whether or not what THEY think is good for the game...will actually be just that.

You DONT know for certain. Admit it.

All I see here is "this is what I think will work"..did it ever occur to any of you that you could be WRONG?

If that hasnt occurred to you, maybe you should.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

The story doesn’t need to have a prominent story character die every single story arc. That will get tiring and lose any sense of shock value, especially if there’s no point except to cater to your own definition of “stakes” or to thin the cast out.


Many stories have stakes without needing to kill or maim characters.

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You are right that characters do not need to die to create stakes and tension. However, the Scions have become incredibly one-note as of late, where everyone has roughly the same ideology, same worldview, same philosophy, same ethics, same morals, same Weltanschauung. It has become petrified and immutable. One can say they have completed their character arcs for six years now, since the end of Stormblood. Certain Scions have completed their character arcs since Heavensward even, like Alphinaud.

The story has thus become predictable. If there are a bunch of soldiers who hate your guts trying to kill you, out of misunderstanding, we already know what will happen: Alphinaud will say "hold your steel", and we won't kill them. Y'shtola might chime in and explain why they have the misunderstanding. We will fight them but not kill them. We will knock them out. They will then recover and stand up, and the writers now have two choices: to make these soldiers come to our side and stay stubborn. Because the writers require that their philosophy wins out, these soldiers will come to our side eventually. Maybe one or two won't, and will get cleaned off either by dying or becoming a villain and then dying, but the vast majority would. So these soldiers are going to stand up and ask "why didn't you kill us" and now the table is set for Alphinaud to espouse his pacifist philosophy for the ten thousandth time.

There are a few other ethical and philosophical positions that the game bends its own plot around to elucidate, often repetitively, and what you have is an extremely unrealistic portrayal of humanity, where it really starts to feel like this isn't an organic story but a few writers' fan fiction aimed at preaching some morals with the actual plot subservient to the preaching. There can be no tension once the player realizes this fact because by backwards-inducting one can easily figure out that there is no real danger or stakes because the preaching will not allow any dissonant story beats that can put its philosophy into danger. See for example the latest MSQ where the Garlean senators just came around and followed the writers' imposed political philosophy at the end.

I should note that no sane person would actually disagree with many of the morals that the game preaches. The problem is that it creates bad writing and is extremely uninteresting and frankly unconvincing. Many of the moral dilemmas set up in ARR have been slowly whitted away, such as the city states' war and racism against the beast tribes. But those dilemmas are good writing. Your philosophy is hollow if there are no dilemmas and implementing it is straightforward and trivial. It's why we don't consider breathing oxygen a philosophy, but we consider eating only plant-based food a philosophy.

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The problem is that it creates bad writing

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Thats your opinion. Not fact. Dont confuse the two.

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Many of the moral dilemmas set up in ARR have been slowly whitted away, such as the city states' war and racism against the beast tribes.

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Because, of course, no one ever realises what they have done was morally wrong, and seek to establish peace. Matter of fact, that change was in fact started during the interview between the Admiral and Yugiri, who planted the first seeds of doubt in the Admirals mind. That change came about because the Admiral had to accept the forceful reality "divided we fall". Faced with a common enemy, faced with a gigantic threat to all, she bit the bullet and did what she had probably been wanting to do for years, but never had the courage to take that next step.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

You DO NOT speak for the "majority", despite all the bleating we see here.

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You say this, and yet you have the hubris to assume that you do. In your absolute failure of a metaphor that you keep insisting on pushing, you're a Karen that yells at people in an attempt to try and suppress opinions that you don't agree with because you find their very utterance offensive. You pretend that some invisible majority agrees with you because you know that your rants could never stand on their own legs as logical arguments. Odd that you would feel the need to do so in such an angry and defensive manner if such opinions were coming from mere 'malcontents'.

Kindly cease and desist.

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Originally Posted by TheDecay

The story has thus become predictable. If there are a bunch of soldiers who hate your guts trying to kill you, out of misunderstanding, we already know what will happen: Alphinaud will say "hold your steel", and we won't kill them. Y'shtola might chime in and explain why they have the misunderstanding. We will fight them but not kill them. We will knock them out. They will then recover and stand up, and the writers now have two choices: to make these soldiers come to our side and stay stubborn. Because the writers require that their philosophy wins out, these soldiers will come to our side eventually. Maybe one or two won't, and will get cleaned off either by dying or becoming a villain and then dying, but the vast majority would. So these soldiers are going to stand up and ask "why didn't you kill us" and now the table is set for Alphinaud to espouse his pacifist philosophy for the ten thousandth time.

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This is so accurate that it's sad.

https://media.tenor.com/HCZt-khmK5kA...apan-weird.gif

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Originally Posted by tsuchii

Is this ragebait? LOL
That's not a valid feedback. You can't just demand a game developer what they should and should not go creative-wise. It's their story to tell.

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So players aren't allowed to critic the story? That's a weird take.

"You can't tell Disney you thought Palpatine coming back was a bad idea, it's their story to tell!"

Some people in this thread: I don't like this thing and this is why
Some people in this thread: I don't agree with that
A few people in this thread: You're wrong blah blah blah blah gonna use metaphor about you that can easily be turned around on myself

It's all so wearying...

The funniest/saddest part is this thread just proves the "mads" right about their claim that they're constantly being told "if you don't like it go play something else".

Also, I don't know what the big deal is about someone saying they think the story could be better if done in a different way.

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Originally Posted by AwesomeJr44

You say this, and yet you have the hubris to assume that you do. In your absolute failure of a metaphor that you keep insisting on pushing, you're a Karen that yells at people in an attempt to try and suppress opinions that you don't agree with because you find their very utterance offensive. You pretend that some invisible majority agrees with you because you know that your rants could never stand on their own legs as logical arguments. Odd that you would feel the need to do so in such an angry and defensive manner if such opinions were coming from mere 'malcontents'.

Kindly cease and desist.



This is so accurate that it's sad.

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Predictable? Who here by a show of hands predicted Zodiark would be our first trial? Maybe Hyd being our 2nd. Who here predicted Endsinger would even be a thing or that msq would revolve heavily around themes of nihilism?Who predicted that Zenos would become Shinryu once again and travel the stars to aid us? Who predicted Fandaniel was Amon? Who predicated we'd have a friendly battle with Venat? Hell who predicted Elpis? Like I could ask a hundred of these.

To sit and act Ike everything is oh so predictable is so weird to me. What do you expect us to just start wiping people out who don't agree with us or something? We've always sided more on diplomacy and it'd be jarring if that started to no longer be the case. I'd much rather have consistent characters rather than ones that flip flop at the drop of a hat. BUT thats also why I welcome new ones. I'm at a point where I feel many of yall just want/need a new game

Buddy you are shifting the target topic somewhere else, we are not talking about how predictable the story is, we are talking about how predictable and preachy the characters are within the story.

Besides the moment Zodiark was revealed to be the first Trial boss then many obvious cards were on the table.

If they planned for the trials to be against super god like primals then the next one would obviously be Momma and since they followed a 3 trials in base expansion formula and the two top powerful beings are down then the next would be a Necron scenario which it was.

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

Predictable?

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You're probably better off quoting TheDecay seeing as none of the things you brought up outside of your last paragraph have anything to do with the section I was quoting from him. That being said, most of the examples you gave were either predictable or irrelevant to the plot or characters. The Elpis one is really the only one that wasn't.

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

What do you expect us to just start wiping people out who don't agree with us or something? We've always sided more on diplomacy and it'd be jarring if that started to no longer be the case.

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No, I think some of us just want some of the people we meet to not become our friends just because we asked nicely, and who can actually pose as a differing point of view that isn't forced to adopt ours by the end of the story.

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Originally Posted by AwesomeJr44

No, I think some of us just want some of the people we meet to not become our friends just because we asked nicely, and who can actually pose as a differing point of view that isn't forced to adopt ours by the end of the story.

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Thing is not everyone joins up simply because we nicely ask. And it's not as though the Scions agree on every little thing as it is. Say they do introduce characters that are at odds most of the time what does that really achieve? I've seen many here complain about the story dragging yet wouldnt infighting just drag the story out even more? And I've yet to see anyone "forced" to adopt our views...If you could point out some examples I'm not recalling I'm all ears and will take that back. Those who do join the Scion do so willingly in part because they share the Scions views in one way or another.

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

And it's not as though the Scions agree on every little thing as it is.

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There has not been a source of genuine major internal conflict within the scions for a very long time, and any minor conflict that arises is resolved swiftly and with no consequences. No, Urianger pretending to be evil for five seconds in each expansion before revealing that he was really a good guy all along doesn't count.

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

I've seen many here complain about the story dragging yet wouldnt infighting just drag the story out even more?

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It depends. Are we interacting with NPCs that have nothing to do with the current main plot like with what happened in 6.4? Then yes, that is dragging the story out.

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

And I've yet to see anyone "forced" to adopt our views

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The scions are not literally forcing people to bend to their will, it's a problem with the writing and how characters will suddenly act out of character when it's time for them to merge with the scions' hivemind amoeba. This was obviously my point, so much so that I have to question if your misrepresentation of it was intentional. It wouldn't be the first time you have done so.

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Originally Posted by AwesomeJr44

There has not been a source of genuine major internal conflict within the scions for a very long time, and any minor conflict that arises is resolved swiftly and with no consequences. No, Urianger pretending to be evil for five seconds in each expansion before revealing that he was really a good guy all along doesn't count.



It depends. Are we interacting with NPCs that have nothing to do with the current main plot like with what happened in 6.4? Then yes, that is dragging the story out.



The scions are not literally forcing people to bend to their will, it's a problem with the writing and how characters will suddenly act out of character when it's time for them to merge with the scions' hivemind amoeba. This was obviously my point, so much so that I have to question if your misrepresentation of it was intentional. It wouldn't be the first time you have done so.

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If you point has nothing to do with forcing...why use said word? You don't get to say something then accuse (or consider doing as such) someone of misrepresenting when they took you at your word. That's not how this works. Maybe say what you actually mean going forward and this wouldn't happen. When I see the word force that implies something being done against ther will. I post definitions of stuff here often so yes I do go with the literal sense of what I'm reading.

As to the first point why does the inner conflict need to be major to count? Why would anything major even crop up at this point between them? What would that even be realistically?

And lastly who exactly has acted out of character when they joined the Scion "hivemind"? I'd imagine it has to be an extensive amount of people for you to make said point.

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Originally Posted by TheDecay

I should note that no sane person would actually disagree with many of the morals that the game preaches. The problem is that it creates bad writing and is extremely uninteresting and frankly unconvincing. Many of the moral dilemmas set up in ARR have been slowly whitted away, such as the city states' war and racism against the beast tribes. But those dilemmas are good writing. Your philosophy is hollow if there are no dilemmas and implementing it is straightforward and trivial. It's why we don't consider breathing oxygen a philosophy, but we consider eating only plant-based food a philosophy.

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Well put. There is quite often agreement on what things constitute desirable or good things. That isn't necessarily what makes morality quite hard. It's the fact that it's not always straightforward to overcome human frailties (cui bono, incentives and past grievances both being big ones), to agree on interpretation of a scenario, to even identify the boundaries of what constitutes a moral agent, the degree to which tradition/past practice of what worked vs "reasoned out" approaches should hold sway, and also that you're often balancing conflicting priorities or 'goods'. And of course in some cases there just is disagreement over what is the good, without that meaning people holding these dissonant views do so out of malice. All of that can be a source of conflict even where an ideal is agreed upon. When it's just straightforward imposition of a moral code, in the way you describe (the way the beast tribe conflict was put on ice is emblematic of it), it's not particularly interesting, and you can add to that the occurrence of broken aesops in XIV ("this looks like that, so it's the same!", sometimes relying on the shallowest of parallels to make a "point".) You really need to be willing to include active back and forth and reasonable counter-arguments both within the Scions and from groups opposing them to make this kind of conflict not just amount to a form of moral bulldozing through any troubles that get in the way. Otherwise it's just a form of preaching.

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

Predictable? Who here by a show of hands predicted Zodiark would be our first trial? Maybe Hyd being our 2nd. Who here predicted Endsinger would even be a thing or that msq would revolve heavily around themes of nihilism?Who predicted that Zenos would become Shinryu once again and travel the stars to aid us? Who predicted Fandaniel was Amon? Who predicated we'd have a friendly battle with Venat? Hell who predicted Elpis? Like I could ask a hundred of these.

To sit and act Ike everything is oh so predictable is so weird to me. What do you expect us to just start wiping people out who don't agree with us or something? We've always sided more on diplomacy and it'd be jarring if that started to no longer be the case. I'd much rather have consistent characters rather than ones that flip flop at the drop of a hat. BUT thats also why I welcome new ones. I'm at a point where I feel many of yall just want/need a new game

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None of it is predictable. People will be given a foreshadow of something two levels before an event or four quests before it. Then reply with, I knew it! Saw this coming! Even though the foreshadow was only made predictable literally 4 quests ago.

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You say this, and yet you have the hubris to assume that you do.

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Never said I did. Ever. Said this forum is a minority. It is. Deal with it.

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In your absolute failure of a metaphor that you keep insisting on pushing, you're a Karen that yells at people in an attempt to try and suppress opinions that you don't agree with because you find their very utterance offensive.

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Never said or implied anything of the kind. Never tried to "suppress" anyone either. But you keep making stuff up, keep fabricating issues that dont exist and never have.

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You pretend that some invisible majority agrees with you

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Never said this at any time. I said in fact that I dont know what everyone wants. I dont. You dont. No one does.

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because you know that your rants could never stand on their own legs as logical arguments. Odd that you would feel the need to do so in such an angry and defensive manner if such opinions were coming from mere 'malcontents'.

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I will admit I find you..vexing, especially when you are either unable or incapable of accurately depicting what someone actually said vs what you want to believe.

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Kindly cease and desist.

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Since I can accurately take that as your attempt to suppress what I want to say?

How about...no.

I can prove you completely wrong with one quote from here (Post #92, linked below) and a link to another thread. Watch.

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...phizing/page10

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You say this, and yet you have the hubris to assume that you do.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

Actually what we have here, Theodric, is a busy , bustling happy restaurant with loads of happy customers ignoring a tiny band of bitter malcontents standing outside, jum ping up and down telling them how bad the food is and not to eat it because it doesnt suit THEIR tastes or personal likes.

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You saying that the people that agree with you are 'loads of happy customers' compared to the 'tiny band of malcontents'.

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you're a Karen that yells at people in an attempt to try and suppress opinions that you don't agree with because you find their very utterance offensive.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

Actually what we have here, Theodric, is a busy , bustling happy restaurant with loads of happy customers ignoring a tiny band of bitter malcontents standing outside, jum ping up and down telling them how bad the food is and not to eat it because it doesnt suit THEIR tastes or personal likes.

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Labeling those you disagree with as a 'tiny band of malcontents' that are unreasonable and thus shouldn't be listened to.

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You pretend that some invisible majority agrees with you

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

Actually what we have here, Theodric, is a busy , bustling happy restaurant with loads of happy customers ignoring a tiny band of bitter malcontents standing outside, jum ping up and down telling them how bad the food is and not to eat it because it doesnt suit THEIR tastes or personal likes.

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You saying that the people that agree with you are 'loads of happy customers' compared to the 'tiny band of malcontents'. (This is the same as #1)

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

especially when you are either unable or incapable of accurately depicting what someone actually said vs what you want to believe.

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For every time you have claimed this, I have provided concrete indisputable evidence to show that you said the things I claim you do. So far, you have been caught in several lies. Not misunderstandings, not things that weren't worded properly, straight out contradictions that cannot both be true when put side by side. Not only that, but you have doubled down on every occasion, which rules out a change in mindset. The most recent example being page #833 in the Lackluster thread where you contradicted yourself from only a little over a week prior.

Here's a link for everyone: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...walker/page833

Like I said there, I don't have the memory of a goldfish.

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Originally Posted by Kranel_San

I wholeheartedly agree with you. The entire 6.0 EW MSQ and the whole concepts of Dynamis and "The universe and its world have fallen into depression and that's why they're all dead" is quite boring to me. Perhaps one of the most boring cosmic-themed concepts I have seen so far in the history of gaming. Do you really want to convince me that the vast expanse of the universe, with hundreds, thousands, or even millions of civilizations got wiped out because of depression and despair? That they share the same understanding of emotions as the rest? That no one managed to stand against it other than a group of 16-30 years old scholars who took it down via the power of friendship? I'm not trying to shame people who like this sort of philosophy, but I'd prefer actions, actual mysteries, plot twists, and grey morality where neither side's actions are justified just like ARR/HW story writing over emotions and friendship.

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Civilizations on Earth come and go. Look what has happened to the Mayans, Inca, and Aztec civilizations and empires. Those South American cultures were all about the cycle of life and death, and even sacrificed people out of appeasement to their gods. They were at their peak of power hundreds years ago and they all vanished. Civilizations can die on a whim. Even ancient Egyptians ceased, yet they embraced death as a new chapter in life. Death is a much talked about theme and no one wants to die. People can find the sadness and despair in life when all hope seems loss. Lots of people do not want to die but it eventually happens to everyone and everything. You may not like it, but everything you do in life will not matter decades or centuries later to future people unless you make a drastic change in life can be historical. Hell, I’d love to know who my Celtic ancestors were and what they did (my bloodline is near 100% European Celtic) in their lives, but I will never know what their accomplishments were until I die.

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Originally Posted by Nav_Fae

None of it is predictable. People will be given a foreshadow of something two levels before an event or four quests before it. Then reply with, I knew it! Saw this coming! Even though the foreshadow was only made predictable literally 4 quests ago.

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Keep defeating the imaginary strawman that no one put forth as an argument.

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Originally Posted by AwesomeJr44

snip

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No, what you've provided is misinterpretations at best and intentional dishonesty at worst. Vel's analogy of the restaurant makes sense, given that hundreds of thousands of people are actively logging into the game, playing, and enjoying themselves every day (itself verifiable by reading chat, listening in on Discords, etc.), versus the couple dozen or so people on this forum constantly complaining about everything and attacking anyone who dares to say they enjoy the game or refute the attempts at points being made. In the meantime, you specifically ignore every single thing Vel says that explicitly refutes your claims, and then try to cherry-pick one thing, completely ignore the context or reality behind it, and then go on a paragraphs-long rant about it. That's troubling.

I think whenever people need to insist that they're the majority and that any criticism is just coming from 'haters' then it's a surefire sign that they're actually not all that confident that a particular product can actually stand on its own two feet without deceptive attempts to pretend as if absolutely any feedback whatsoever that is negative has no weight or merit to it.

There's many aspects of the game that are worthy of criticism and to pretend otherwise is, as far as I'm concerned, rather disingenuous. Especially when this forum's primary purpose is to serve as a venue for feedback to be posted. Whether anyone working for the company reads it is another matter entirely though it's where people are directed to when urged to leave feedback.

I see it's whittled down from "millions" to "hundreds of thousands" over time. Fact is, striker has no true data he can access to determine the "majority's" opinion on the story, or any other gameplay aspect. The reality is consumers will consume a product for as long as it provides them with some satisfaction/feel it is worth their money but that's a far cry from saying they have no criticism of it or that the product itself is perfect. People like striker treat this as some 0/1 happy/unhappy binary, where it's actually a sliding scale where the score can dip below what's good enough to justify a sub fee or just stay high enough to justify it. That isn't to say there's not a chunk of people thrilled with this game, just that it's not nearly as clear-cut as such folk make it out to be. Reducing disagreement to a few dozens on the forum, as if they might not reflect the same concerns of players in game, is an exercise in dishonesty to which striker has given his all. We just know there's some patterns of criticism that arise on quite a few platforms and that there is a relatively high churn that statistics like LB show. If we want to play the usual "majority" games, how many people who have ever played this game still play it? In that light, who is the "minority"?

It's banal and pointless to even try discuss it using such framing, as if it matters to these discussions to anyone but SE, which is also the only party here that can truly determine this and the significance of it to whether they heed certain feedback or not.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I think whenever people need to insist that they're the majority and that any criticism is just coming from 'haters' then it's a surefire sign that they're actually not all that confident that a particular product can actually stand on its own two feet without deceptive attempts to pretend as if absolutely any feedback whatsoever that is negative has no weight or merit to it.

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To be fair here, anyone at all who thinks they're a majority of the fanbase, while on a forum, greatly overestimates how many people care one way or the other.

Especially if they reference how others on the forums feel.

It's like how on mmo-c and bnet back in 2009 tons of folks on the forums were convinced that BC and Wotlk ruined wow and that the game was going to die any day now because they added 10 man raids, and would start every argument with "EVERYONE AGREES!". And as much as you can say bad things about wow, wotlk did not kill it in 2010.

Most people who are content with the game don't come to forums, so you get an incredibly skewed perspective.

Most people who unsubscribe/stop playing the game also do so silently and may not even do SE the courtesy of telling them why, much as they might ask "why did you stop paying us".

Yoshi at least is/was acutely aware of this dynamic:

https://i.imgur.com/nCMeeRl.png

So really this argument about forum non-participation cuts in both directions.

I wasn't meaning to imply one way or the other, just that forum participation isn't really indicative of what folks, in general, fell about the game.

I should have said "The most passionate players are the ones on the forums" instead, was my bad.

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Originally Posted by Striker44

Vel's analogy of the restaurant makes sense

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It's a terrible and inaccurate analogy that's already been proven as such on several occasions.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I think whenever people need to insist that they're the majority and that any criticism is just coming from 'haters' then it's a surefire sign that they're actually not all that confident that a particular product can actually stand on its own two feet without deceptive attempts to pretend as if absolutely any feedback whatsoever that is negative has no weight or merit to it.

There's many aspects of the game that are worthy of criticism and to pretend otherwise is, as far as I'm concerned, rather disingenuous. Especially when this forum's primary purpose is to serve as a venue for feedback to be posted. Whether anyone working for the company reads it is another matter entirely though it's where people are directed to when urged to leave feedback.

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That means feedback both positive and negative. Many here seem to forget this. I also don't think it's wrong to claim most of the players are happy overall with the game. Even on social media the most negative space in the community is here and basically here only. Theres a general sentiment to keep away from here due to how toxic it has been and can be. That does mean something, I wouldn't say your concerns are less valid, but it does mean something.

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

That means feedback both positive and negative. Many here seem to forget this. I also don't think it's wrong to claim most of the players are happy overall with the game. Even on social media the most negative space in the community is here and basically here only. That does mean something, I wouldn't say your concerns are less valid, but it does mean something.

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It means that people are much more likely to pin point things they dislike, then those they like. If there's something they like, they can make some "appreciation" post or whatever, but because it doesn't have much space for discussion, it will be buried with other posts (this works both here and on reddit). On the other hand, if you have something negative to say, it often sparks a discussion. And where do you voice this concern? On some social media, or here on forums, which is meant exactly for this feedback (and Yoshi-P specifically said to post it here, on official forums)?

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Originally Posted by Deo14

It means that people are much more likely to pin point things they dislike, then those they like. If there's something they like, they can make some "appreciation" post or whatever, but because it doesn't have much space for discussion, it will be buried with other posts (this works both here and on reddit). On the other hand, if you have something negative to say, it often sparks a discussion. And where do you voice this concern? On some social media, or here on forums, which is meant exactly for this feedback (and Yoshi-P specifically said to post it here, on official forums)?

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Positive threads here get derailed and crapped on all the time tbf. Anything here will spark a discussion. Folks praising the game will have others come in touting the game doesn't deserve said praise. Nothing you've said changes my point. This place is seen as toxic by a larger portion of the community. Doesn't matter if this is the place designated for negative feedback (in context). You can have that without toxicity but thats not how this place operates sadly and that has soured its reputation to players and seemingly devs alike

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

Positive threads here get derailed and crapped on all the time tbf. Anything here will spark a discussion. Folks praising the game will have others come in touting the game doesn't deserve said praise. Nothing you've said changes my point. This place is seen as toxic by a larger portion of the community. Doesn't matter if this is the place designated for negative feedback (in context). You can have that without toxicity but thats not how this place operates sadly and that has soured its reputation to players and seemingly devs alike

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When was the last time you saw an actual positive thread here? I'm not talking about those artificial threads, which people made specifically as a response to negative ones. If some people disagree? It's in their right, this is still a place for discussions. As for derailing, it's really nothing exclusive to positive threads, look what we're talking about, and then look and the title of a thread.

When it comes to toxicity, blame SE for both lack of moderation, and for making us feel like our feedback is going nowhere. But I really wouldn't say this place is overly toxic. Official FFXIV reddit is much worse, it's full of passive aggressiveness and fake positivity, and if you disagree with hivemind, you get downvoted for oblivion, it's just not a place for any discussions, which is why people either stay silent or go here.

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Originally Posted by SquirrelDerp

I should have said "The most passionate players are the ones on the forums" instead, was my bad.

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But are they passionate about playing the game, or passionate about hating on it?

Someone passionate about playing the game is going to have both positives and negatives they share about it. No game is perfect. There are always things that can be improved but the player is also going to want to share what they enjoy or at the least does not see as a problem with the game. If they feel there are no positives or those positives are greatly overshadowed by the negatives, there's no reason to stay passionate about playing it.

When all someone posts is negative comments with nothing positive to say, it natural to doubt that they're actually passionate about playing the game. From there, it's a small step to assume they're only interested in hating on it (an assumption that may or may not be true).

While I have my issues with the individual who started this thread, I can agree that the game does tend to overdo certain themes mostly in the smaller subplots. But that player also has had nothing positive to say about the game and likes to attack posters who do say positive things. So are they here because they're passionate about playing the game, or are they here because they're passionate about hating on the game?

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

But are they passionate about playing the game, or passionate about hating on it?

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Both, either. I passionately like the game, some folks here are passionate and like it but dislike aspects enough to come to a forum to complain about it, some just straight hate it. But regardless of the case, I don't think many people would be on a forum for a game if they were apathetic to the game.

I mean, I'm sure there are people who don't care and just want to hate on others, but ime that's usually less than maybe 10% of folks on a forum. Just because it's hard to keep up the energy to troll if you don't care at all.

That said I'm new to this forum and most of my experience comes from mmo-champ and the old bnet forums, so it might be different.(I don't even know if you need a sub to post here)

You cannot expect anything intelligent to come out of any posts on eng FFXIV forums, esp generally discussion. It's all meta-drama, and people arguing in bad faith. There are few people here who can make coherent arguments, and have a reading comprehension beyond that of a 6 year old child. Much different when you switch to the JP side however.

It's really quite fascinating to see how certain posters repeatedly ignore the fact that those they deem to be 'negative' have repeatedly outlined the aspects of the game that they do enjoy a great many times already. It seems to be the new go to tactic in order to try deflect from the points being raised and interestingly it's something only deployed somewhat recently.

Putting that aside, however, let's consider for a moment that the only obligation anybody has around these parts is to obey the established code of conduct. The weird attempts to police tone and content of posts beyond that is just that - weird. Feel free to chalk up any differences to conflicting personality types or culture clashes. Or the fact that not everybody speaks English as a primary language.

Many of us also primarily make use of Twitter or Discord to discuss the aspects of the game that we like. It's much easier to share fan art on both platforms, after all - and you don't have to deal with the unhinged posters who either send death threats or accuse you of being a 'fascist' if you dare to like or dislike the 'wrong' characters in this game.

'ur all just haters so go away' is what is really being insinuated here, let's be honest. It's just being dressed up politely.

The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference.
If someone cares enough to complain about the game every single day there's a high possibility they still have some sort of strong attachment to it. Or maybe they realize what could have been. Or they just have high expectations and thought the game used to deliver on them.