This is something I have issue with, and that is inherent to how we have, for a lack of a better example, jobs being equivalent of WoW's class specializations. Talking from purely a mechanical standpoint, yeah, we have options for different skill ceilings, but the game is not just a spreadsheet, so on the other hand it sucks when the job you're most fascinated with in a RPG sense is way above your skill level (BLM for some) or way too simple for your tastes (SMN to others). I am a HUGE fan of SMN's job fantasy - my favorite job across other titles - and endured its barebone mechanics for a while until I couldn't anymore... However, as much as BLM probably suits me more as a caster, I just can't get into the visuals.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
I think in an ideal world, since we can't have different ways of playing the same job RPG fantasy, we should have accessible skill floors, and medium to high skill ceilings. BLM lacks the former, but have a great example of the latter with different types of optimizations, SMN is the reverse.
Yet another SMN thread: SMN is the only job that doesn't have a gauge/proc management
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06-14-2023, 10:19 PMRaikai
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06-14-2023, 10:27 PMIvtrixYou’re completely missing the point. The objective isn’t to punish players. It’s to reward players for playing the job beyond the basic functions of how the job plays. The bottom line isn’t effected in any way shape or form. This won’t and shouldn’t affect people who play the job for fun and because it’s easy, because every single job in this game is very easy to pick up and play at a fundamental level. That is by design. I won’t comment on the specific dps numbers since it’s a different issue but SMN and RDM by design will be in theory very close to each other.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tanis_Ebonhart
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06-14-2023, 11:04 PMDeo14If you significantly buffed RDM, you would punish SMN instead. If you really wanted to offset DPS by their difficulty, than tables will turn and SMN will be so weak nobody would play it, even though it's simpler. That's fair on paper, but community will lock SMN players from harder content.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tanis_Ebonhart
You're not obligated to learn more about the job if you play normal content, and clearly, many people don't. Play expert roulette or similar as DRK without using all the damage oGCDs and tell me you didn't manage to get a clear. Same can be applied to the legendary ice mages. You can still clear normal content if you play only 30% of your job. Problem is that 30% of one job, is 90% of SMN.
And no, WAR vs GNB comparison doesn't work, WAR just recently became super popular because of buffs, last tier was dominated by DRKs merely because it had slightly higher damage than other tanks.
Even though WAR has simpler rotation, it's difficulty is still very similar to DRK. DRK is just WAR with more oGCDs sprinkled on top. GNB is really just regular 1-2-3, with continuation and few extra oGCDs. Most importantly, tanks do tank on top of doing their DPS rotation. Mitigation, watching your health and so on acts as a catalyst which helps normalizing difficulty of each tank. Difficulty difference between WAR and GNB is minimal compared to something like SMN and RDM.
Also, people are currently pretty mad that WAR is simplest, has highest DPS and best self sustain. Similarly, people are unhappy that SMN is just better RDM in all accounts, while being much easier. -
06-15-2023, 02:17 AMEorzean_usernameIvtrix, your basic point is perfectly-valid from a "game design" / "balance" standpoint, but I think you aren't understanding how the wider playerbase instinctively reacts to a comparison like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivtrix
You're trying to demonstrate, from your perspective: "Wow, seems like Summoner is too easy, we should make Summoner harder".
But most players, shown that comparison, will instead conclude: "Wow, seems like Red Mage is too hard, we should make Red Mage easier".
In order to understand why Jobs like Summoner are so popular now, it's important to realize that only a very narrow segment of players actually enjoy the challenge of optimizing a Job in the way that you've described in your TOP example.
I think that, for most players, they simply do not view FFXIV that seriously, nor as justifying that kind of effort or investment out of the hours of their wider life. As a result, they react positively to Jobs like EW Summoner that can be played "intuitively" in a wide variety of situations, and where understanding how to adjust and "optimize" it (so to speak) feels straightforward enough to figure out on their own, without consulting spreadsheets and "help channels".
I really need to stress that "Oh, it's okay, you can suck and still clear content!" is actually not a satisfying "compromise" to a lot of players.
People often pull out the "haha ice mages" type exaggerated extremes, but I think that most players don't actually fall into those edge cases — in my experience, at least (anecdotal though it all is), most players do at least try to understand what their Job "wants" them to do, and they become frustrated and discouraged if they feel like they can't pull it off consistently.
As strange as it may seem from the perspective of someone who's seriously-dedicated to the game, a lot of players also just do not seek external resources — they will try to figure things out, but if they can't figure it out "on their own", they either stop worrying about it, or become frustrated and pick a different Job.
I want to stress that I'm not arguing "right" or "wrong" here, and I'm not saying you're "wrong" for enjoying a game that rewards you for thinking about things in a depthy, complicated, or extensive way. I'm just trying to clarify that a vast amount of the playerbase neither enjoys that, nor sees it as a valuable design pursuit, and that causes the friction you're seeing here.
It's really not about just "able to clear normal content" vs. "not able to clear normal content"; that's oversimplifying the issue. People want to feel like they're playing "correctly", not "scraping by because it doesn't matter anyway". -
06-15-2023, 02:42 AMVandso
Jeez, you guys are still going at it. I didn't expect this post to be so successfull.
I see many valid points in this complexity x simplicity war, but there's one thing everyone seems to agree: Ramuh, Shiva and Leviathan should be added. Please Yoshi-P, the people are screaming!
Imo I don't see much of a problem in the summoning mechanic itself, my biggest gripe is Aetherflow. It's there for some reason but it doesn't seem to have any impact at all as a mechanic. Which is why I think it should be reworked or updated.
Imo they should make Fester cost 2 Aetherflows instead of 1, and make it so every lego you spend grants 1 Aetherflow stack. That way you would have to fit 6 Festers throughout your rotation, making you think more about the timing of the summons you're using. -
06-15-2023, 03:15 AMRaikaiOh for sure! One thing I think that regardless how the SMN mechanics were delivered, they certainly "saved" the remaining gemstones and elemental affinities to add next tier. Aquamarine Leviathan, Amethyst Ramuh and Diamond Shiva (yeah, I'll die on the hill that it should be diamond and not sapphire lol).Quote:
Originally Posted by Vandso
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FbcBGxOX...jpg&name=small
*made this right after the rework
My expectations are that they'll make this new cycle (possibly after Phoenix) more cast time oriented. -
06-15-2023, 03:56 AMVandsoThat is cute. Is that a Taffeta Shawl and Eden Gloves you're using?Quote:
Originally Posted by Raikai
I would be happy with the three other summons even if they were just visual. But yeah, I agree that it would be cool if they were more casting oriented.
Also, I can't wait for 8.0 when they add Alexander. -
06-15-2023, 04:09 AMseolhyun
smn is braindead. ppl that say "i feel like a summoner" are just copium because they want an easy job. every summon does aoe damage and lights up 2 buttons. nothing unique or different about what u choose to summon. phoenix does a little healing but u cant choose to use it wisely it must be used on cd.
also highly doubt they "ran out of time" and will expand on it next xpac. fully expect more summons to be added that do the same pointless things and spam 1 button for 2 more years. smn is now made for the afk modders who dont want to do anything that takes them out of emoting in town. -
06-15-2023, 04:10 AMZephyrMenodoraPraise Menphina! I love it!Quote:
Originally Posted by seolhyun
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06-15-2023, 04:34 AMRaikaiYeah! Coliseum Shawl more specifically because it has a better color pattern than the Taffeta dyed. That and the Edenmete gloves are favorites of mine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vandso
Visually the job is now cohese and strong with the classic final fantasy summoner and does make feel like one more than before.Quote:
Originally Posted by seolhyun
The package's painting has nothing to do with how it works, as 'braindead' as it is. I don't really understand this kind of attack to people who likes the job because of an aesthetic fulfillment. -
06-15-2023, 04:38 AMPostIf the whole game goes in the direction of lowering the "ceiling", it likewise alienates players that have been around for a long time and HAVE gotten better, from concerted effort or hours regardless.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eorzean_username
Part of the reason SMN is as controversial as it is is that a large number of players DID like its previous iteration, if not for its theming then for its moment to moment gameplay, which is still very important.
RDM by contrast has basically not changed at all since its introduction. It still gathers mana the same way and dumps it in an ever -lengthening combo. It's not too complicated and was often lauded as "the intuitive DPS job" that provided easy party support through rezzes BEFORE SMN raised the bar in that regard. It's only complicated now by contrast, and that happened all at once, in one patch, one day!
RDM has gotten more punishing to do the thing it does to help the party, too, cuz it has to hog melee range more often, and it loses so much more if it interrupts its combo early to rez nowadays. SMN loses more now than before, too. DoTs and a pet still hit the boss while you rezzed, and you used to be able to use dreadwyrm trance to rez faster and for no personal damage penalty as long as you used Deathflare before it fell off.
By the way, why should rezzing as a non healer be limited to jobs with low complexity ceilings? That's not fun for players that like engaging more with their job but still like to support the party, especially when they know their teammates are learning. -
06-15-2023, 04:39 AMPost
At no point has FFXIV's job design ever been so inscrutable that any player that can read (at least for the English translation) did not have every tool necessary to play the jobs in the game "correctly" as you put it if not optimally. The actions themselves tell you everything you need to know to compare your actions, from costs to targets to ranges to cooldowns to potency values.
If there's ever confusion, they largely design that element out of the game. E.g.: multiple, competing aoe actions for BRD, MCH, DRG, DRK before aoe combos existed. DoTs, in SMN's case, as some players might never have realized every dot tics every 3 seconds. The only real exceptions to this have ever been BLM's astral fire damage increase being unlisted and MCH's Flamethrower hitting more often than most over time effects
Heck, the MSQ prepares you more for reading than for anything else, you'd figure folks would be great at it by the time they're 90.
I think the number of players that don't read their actions as they acquire them, one by one, while leveling in game says that most don't care about playing well. The number of people unsyncing content for glamour and mounts at every hour, even waiting for groups for duties they could easily solo if they tried also speaks volumes.
But, like your were saying earlier in the reverse, I don't think this is a bad thing. I just come away thinking, as a longtime fan that barely interacts with ANY communities or resources about it from outside of the game:
If you have a type of player that plays the game for the job design, for the battle content, for liking to do better, and you can create content in such a way that it doesn't exclude those that don't really prefer that aspect of the game... Why strictly design for the latter? They're not the ones that are going to play with and appreciate the content or the job design the same way anyways.
Apologies for the double post, can't figure out how to edit a post to beat the character limit on a phone browser. -
06-15-2023, 04:48 AMTanis_Ebonhart
@Deo14 (Since quote is too long)
I doubt that buffing RDM would punish Summoners in 99% of content if Summoner is left untouched. Players would still play Summoner because it's fun and easy to play as.
Not obligated? I disagree. If there's more things for a Job to do and can do then Players are obligated to learn it or pick another Job. Which is what a lot of Players did when they picked Summoner as their Caster job over the more complicated ones.
Sounds to me that those jobs need to be changed then if only 30% is necessary compared to the 90% of Summoner. On paper that makes Summoner the way more efficient job if more players use it to its potential without too much issue. Not really something to aspire to, to make a job too complicated or busy work that most players will only use 30% of what it has to offer.
It is a fair comparison as they're both in the Tanking roles. Warrior is FAR simpler than Gunbreaker and Dark Knight and players can start learning it at level 1. I would also disagree on difficulty, as Warrior has way better self-healing and it doesn't have a couple mitigations locked out if a Boss doesn't use a certain type of attack (Magic).
If people are mad, then I'm not seeing it as Warrior is the most common tank I see running around.
That sounds like a RDM issue, not a Summoner issue. So, fix RDM. Players aren't going to abandon Summoner in huge numbers all of a sudden for a job that's much more busy work (and switching things up) compared to Summoner unless it's buffed to ridiculous levels which it won't be. -
06-15-2023, 05:23 AMVandsoI find the idea of having the other summons stay in the battlefield just like Bahamut and Phoenix interesting, but I seem to be alone in this idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by seolhyun
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06-15-2023, 05:31 AMDeo14So are you fine with SMN being locked out of EX and higher content? We're talking RDM having potentially 10%+ higher overall damage contribution than SMN if we wanted to rank DPS by their difficulty. Keep in mind that in 6.2, community was not allowing multiple jobs to join their party, because they were just few % weaker than other jobs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tanis_Ebonhart
But you just don't have to do them. Look at current SMN, what makes you feel like you're obliged to use Searing Light, Aetherflow skills or others? You can do your regular summon rotation without it. And what's wrong with players learning? That's how all games work, you learn the game's system and you get better. It's not like other "hard" jobs are hard to learn, they are already pretty easy if you just read your tooltips.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tanis_Ebonhart
This is just peak of how lazy you can get. Why would you need to learn a job? Why won't we just have 1 button rotation? Healers already have that, ask them how they like it. And if we already have 1 button rotation, why even play it? Can't FFXIV just be a movie at that point?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tanis_Ebonhart
WAR vs GNB, potentially, if you have hard time tracking your cartridges and somehow struggle with few oGCDs. WAR vs DRK, not a chance. Difference between DRK and WAR is that you just spam some extra oGCDs in your burst, that's everything there is to it. You don't need to upkeep Darkside, order of your oGCDs isn't super relevant, and there is no other complexity. Difficulty coming from Dark Mind is irrelevant here, we're talking about people who want to put as little effort as they can, no way they can differentiate between magical and physical attack.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tanis_Ebonhart
Of course WAR is running around, he's OP, which is why other people are mad. WAR discredits other tanks by being jack of all trades while having highest damage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tanis_Ebonhart
So you're suggesting to give RDM a SMN treatment and gut it until there's nothing left? I'm curious how RDM mains will like that. One expansion of being too weak balance wise, and they neuter it in next expansion? I'll start hoarding all the popcorn right now for that shitshow.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tanis_Ebonhart
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06-15-2023, 06:00 AMEorzean_usernameI'll try to respond in more detail later, but for now I just want to reinforce:Quote:
Originally Posted by Post
Yes, to your point here — this is absolutely a valid perspective. The frustration from more "dedicated" players is not unfounded, and I'm not at all trying to invalidate that FFXIV is slowly and steadily eroding a great deal of the elements that previously made it interesting and rewarding to more "detail-oriented" players.
You're absolutely correct that, one way or another, someone is being "left out" and "alienated". And I think that it's a lot harder to actually "compromise" on this issue than a lot of people — on either polarity of the debate — seem to realize; in either case, someone's play experience is almost always going to be injured.
This is why I think it's important to be sympathetic to former Summoner mains who have lost a unique experience that no substitute Job provides; current Black Mage is, frankly, in no way at all similar to what optimizing (or just "playing well") ShB Summoner felt like, so telling ShB SMN mains "well just go play BLM" is honestly not a "solution", any more than telling EW Summoner mains "well just go play White Mage".
In my opinion, it's a really sticky situation — kind of a (to be a bit melodramatic) Ancients vs. Mortals case, where someone's just going to "lose" no matter what happens.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Post
This is an area where a lot of disconnect occurs between parts of the community, I think.
Different people think differently, and different people approach the game with a different sense of priorities... so it can be misleading to generalize too much from your own perspective.
Something that seems as simple as "consider Potency-per-GCD when looking at combo chains", "make a mental chart of how Potency scales with target count for ST vs AOE actions", or "Divide Potency by Resource Cost to establish the relative value of resource-consumers" is actually opaque black-magic to a lot of players.
Another part of the problem, I think, is that FFXIV is a game that's largely about "setting up the piano-sequence correctly" — seemingly-minor "errors", like where actions are placed in a sequence, can compound and spiral to bloating potency losses due to how the buff system interacts with rotations.
That is also confusing and unintuitive to players — I don't think examples like optimal Perfect Balance usages, or opening encounters with precast Meikyo Shisui, or whether Meisui is actually a DPS button or not, or facepulling on Dark Knight to pump out Living Shadow on-time, or manipulating Acceleration and Swiftcast to prevent OGCD drift on RDM... are intuitive to people, even if they're trying to read their tooltips.
Same for throughout history — I'm sceptical that many players could figure out how to operate HW Dark Knight or SB Machinist or ShB Summoner correctly without some amount of external guidance. There's just way too much going on, and way too many competing possibilities all clashing for attention as the rotation branches through. I think most people definitely become "totally lost" trying to figure it out for themselves, and end up either giving up, or leaving a lot of tools and/or potency "on the table" after they reach their limit for trying to process it.
I think a contributing factor is that, if you look at MMOs from the perspective of players who don't "live" in the genre, a lot of the required "homework" is unintuitive — it's not necessary to perform any calculations or tooltip-analysis to understand how to play Mario, Zelda, shooters, etc. A lot of people coming to FFXIV are in the mindset that they play a game just by using the buttons it gives them, and it starts to spiral into a mess when those buttons start punitively competing with each other, or "rotationally imploding" if done in the improper sequence or outside a narrow "buff window"... etc.
EW Summoner comes much closer to that "pick up and play" feeling that "most" games offer the player, so I think that's another reason that it's well-received by a broader segment.
It's a fair question, I'm just arguing that it's too binary.Quote:
Originally Posted by Post
You're positing a world — and this is a very common argument that I've seen for years — where there exists exactly two types of players:
a) Doesn't read tooltips and doesn't care, just wants to unsync everything and farm glamours and RP in clubs
And under that premise, certainly, it makes sense to say, "Why design for A? 'A' doesn't care anyway".
b) Carefully-reads tooltips, seeks external resources, practices rotation religiously, seeks perfection in parsing and content-optimization as a point of personal pride and honour
I just think that this is actually reasoning from an inaccurate premise, and so it's reaching an inaccurate conclusion.
In reality, I think that it's not "a" and "b", but much more like a smooth continuum that flows between something more like "a" and "z", with the entire alphabet in-between.
So as you increase your distance from "a", you encounter players who take increasing amounts of pride and willingness in trying to learn their Job and play their rotation "correctly".
But as you increase distance from "z", you encounter more and more players who aren't dedicated enough to master things like Optimal Drift Monk, or play Black Mage in Extremes/Savage (or, any more these days, Red Mage in that same content... ironically enough).
So what you're actually encountering is a "filter system" — the more intuitively-accessible a Job's "correct play" is, the more of the upper and mid-level continuum it appeals to. The more exacting and demanding a Job is, the more it starts to winnow the willing candidates down towards the "z" end of the spectrum.
In my own anecdotal experience, I would guess that the population distribution is kind of "bell-curvy":- At one "tail", a minority of "hardcore a" types that truly don't care whatsoever about their tooltips, and will happily "freestyle" or "RP their rotation"
- At the other "tail", a minority of "hardcore z" types that will eat, sleep, and breathe encounter timelines in order to ensure that not a single cast is dropped (or etc)
- And distributed through the central "hill", a much larger number of "b-to-y" types who are genuinely trying, but have varying limits and standards for how much is "too much" when it comes to trying to understand and master a single class in a single game.
I think this may be because FFXIV has a bad habit of "overcorrecting" — making things either utterly-pointless ("Press Glare, then press Glare again") or the exploding-brain-meme ("EW Monk burst optimization").
For a lot of players, EW Summoner seems to make a sweet-spot in-between — it's far more engaging than "1111121111" on Healers, but far less intimidating than "Here is a 34-point plan for how you can get Red Mage through a single 20-second mechanic sequence in Savage Floor 3". -
06-15-2023, 06:08 AMPost
Something to point out as well is that jobs are largely being simplified due to their arbitrary decision to change the game to a 2 minute cooldown meta, and to make this DPS synchronization window more obvious to more players. However, he more they lean into this, the more jobs that were already established before this push are punished.
PLD lost its constant damage rotation because it didn't fit. DRG is due to change, especially because it deals more damage on the odd minutes of a fight because Life of the Dragon lands there. RDM can't really fit all its 3 potential combos into this window well, and worse, it loses its ability to gain resources if the boss goes away for a long time, unlike SMN which peaks on its 1min Summon Bahamut/Phoenix.
The most dramatic changes have lately been to conform to this standard rather than to serve or evolve the job's existing playstyle. -
06-15-2023, 06:30 AMRaikaiI'd LOVE to hear at least a hint of future plans from YP. The 2min meta is truly something they wish to move forward with? Because it's vivid that it hinders whatever new ideas they can have for new jobs, or even new fight mechanics.Quote:
Originally Posted by Post
Most of the people here on this Forums would probably say that it won't ever change, but I like to think that they might eventually realize how limiting it is. -
06-15-2023, 06:37 AMRenathrasSure, but who is arguing that?Quote:
Originally Posted by Post
Who is suggesting that BLM or RDM's difficulty should be reduced?
No one seems to be making the argument to lower the skill ceiling of the entire game. People are just saying having one Job with a lower skill ceiling is nice, popular, enjoyed by many, is likely good for the game, and isn't having the over-hyperbolic dire consequences people wanting it to be made harder are insisting.
SMN is easy, people like that. The rotation is intuitive, people can understand it by just reading their tooltips and playing with it. This is good Job design.
It cooexists in a space with BLM, which isn't at all easy. People (generally different than the first group in SMN) like that, too. The rotation is convoluted, can be tuned to specific fights and even specific phases of specific fights, but no one's playing the Job anywhere close to optimally without spending quote a few hours on Discords and reading/watching guides online, as well as playing with it on their own, testing various things out, and memorizing fights, including watching videos and timing mechanics out, to squeeze every last ounce out of the Job.
...and BLM actually does reward those players with higher DPS, enough to make them worth taking even though SMN has superior utility.
Everyone's comparing SMN to RDM, but the opposite end of the spectrum is BLM, and SMN and BLM seem to have a healthy coexistence going.
This suggests the problem isn't SMN, the problem is RDM. Either it's doing too little damage, its utility isn't seen as worthwhile, it's too hard to optimize, or maybe some combination of the above. But the problem seems not to be that SMN is simple nor that SMN is simple and doing the damage it's doing, since it and BLM still seem to have a healthy relationship.
"But fewer people play BLM!" - True, which may not be because "SMN is easy" so much as it is "Most people don't like having to hyper-optimize and spend ours in weird third-party places outside of the game". But at the high end, people that want to play BLM aren't being denied and BLMs are assets to their teams.
The problem seems to be with RDM.
That's the point being made, though:Quote:
Originally Posted by Post
That players should be able to figure out how to play their Jobs optimally with in-game resources. And we're not even saying all Jobs; just 1. Jobs that require extensive outside research and planning are fine to exist as well - BLM does.
EDIT:
Agreed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eorzean_username
It's why I've held since 6.0 that the next Job they need to introduce should be Green Mage which just takes old SMN's kit (minus Egi-Assault, and the Demis) and replaces them with DoTs and the same refresh and cycle system. The only things that would be missing would be Egi-Assaults, Demi-Bahamut, and FBT. DWT isn't inherently "SMN-y", and the two big summons can be replaced with field effects that do things. The "get 8 GCDs in during Bahamut" could work like NIN's Dotan gaining the ground snake attack when you do your AOE thing while it's up. That would keep that same type of gameplay without the "Summons" and thematically fit a "plague doctor/DoT Mage" class fantasy (think Corrupted/Salted Earth). And Egi-Assaults were honestly just glorified GCD attacks that generated a stack of another ability to use for movement and "Corrupted Earth" optimizations.
This way, both playstyles can exist side-by-side.
I do think the Devs want to move away from DoTs (except on Healers for some reason...), but if they could be persuaded, GRM would be a good addition to the game to scratch that itch some people still have.
.
SMN itself...I want them to give Carby a SCH-like Ruin 2. Just SOMETHING it can do other than Radiant Aegis, and an instant cast will have minimal disruption (at most while waiting for the 0.7 sec animation lock after casting Ruin 2) before Aegis, which I think is more than acceptable. Especially since Searing Light doesn't cast from Carby anymore and since every time I want to use Aegis, it seems to be while a Primal or Demi is on the field and I can't ANYway, so nothing different. :D -
06-15-2023, 07:33 AMDeo14
I've made yet another masterpiece today, which visually showcases the problem:
https://i.imgur.com/csZQ3KC.png
Chart only has damage as Y axis, skill expression is distance between skill ceiling and skill floor
Once again, we have Bob and Greg. Bob isn't very good and Greg is kinda decent. When Bob plays RDM, he does significantly less damage than Greg. He puts in less effort, so that's fine, right? But what if both Bob and Greg switch to SMN? Greg still deals very similar damage, while he does not need to put in as much effort. What about Bob? He deals significantly higher damage, even though he puts in same effort as he did when he played RDM. It's so significant, that the difference between him and Greg is very tiny.
So why would Bob go back to RDM, when he can just relax and play SMN and deal more damage? Why should Greg keep trying his best while playing RDM, when he could just play SMN and deal same damage for less effort?
Both jobs must deal similar potential max damage, otherwise they will be getting kicked out of parties. So there are only 2 ways how to make both RDM and SMN good picks. You either make RDM as brain-dead as SMN (I'm sure RDM mains will be happy about that) or just simply allow more skill expression for SMN. This will make Bob deal less damage, however that is simply fair.
I'm not putting in my personal suggestions how to increase the skill expression for SMN, but it does not necessarily mean drastic changes or adding button bloat just for the sake of adding bloat. There were some good suggestions from other people however. -
06-15-2023, 07:56 AMRokke
this thread has a whole lot of "I don't want a button for a sake of a button!1!!"s as if baha summon, baha enkindle, and deathflare had reasons to be 3 separate buttons lol
reworking even just one of them to be worth a hotbar slot would be an improvement. -
06-15-2023, 08:45 AMSieyaMI would say that Greg there should continue playing RDM because, as people often like to say on here, he likes the challenge and the complexity. If that's what he finds fun and truly what he is looking for and not a reason to lord over other players, than playing the job should be the reward.Quote:
Originally Posted by Deo14
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06-15-2023, 08:54 AMSemirhageTaking "I would like to be able to learn, grow, and gain skill" to mean "you just want to lord over other people" is the most Harrison Bergeron thing I've ever heard.Quote:
Originally Posted by SieyaM
You are 100% allowed to not want to improve at something. There's a tradeoff though, and it's not a difficult one to make. You make it all the time with other hobbies. You look at someone who's put a lot of time and effort in and go, "wow! This person's really good at this (activity)!" But not video games. Video games are a special beast where we have legions of toxic casuals who 1. don't want to improve (fine), and 2. want to make sure other people can't either, because their seething resentment of the rewards that skill brings get projected onto other people in the form of "lording". -
06-15-2023, 08:58 AMDeo14But have you even thought about Bob? Bob has feelings too, you know. What if he liked RDM for it's appearance, visuals and so on? Bob is somewhat informed, and knows he will deal less damage on RDM, so he's hesitant. What if Greg likes SMN for it's job fantasy? Greg likes challenge and complexity, but SMN doesn't offer any. So should he start playing SMN or keep playing RDM? I would say that playing job whose job fantasy/visuals/theme you like should be prioritized over metagaming, but current SMN goes against this idea. Sure, player does not need to meta game, but it's only natural for even casual gamers to min max everything. And if game allows them to, they will do it.Quote:
Originally Posted by SieyaM
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06-15-2023, 09:21 AMIvtrixThats fine for casual play but the moment you add an enrage timer everything changes. Thats the only time that balance actually matters.Quote:
Originally Posted by SieyaM
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06-15-2023, 09:36 AMAravell
It's very strange to me that some people believe those who want some form of skill expression on SMN just wants to lord it over others, maybe consider that they just want to have fun in their own way on a job that they enjoy the aesthetics of? I don't think anyone is asking that SMN be only playable at a base level after reading a 20 page documentation, they just want some form of skill expression so they can have their own fun.
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06-15-2023, 09:52 AMPayotzYeah not really a fan of that implication either. Sure there are some ego andies, but more often than not, ego andies don't want anything to change because they're good at the current system, and a skill ceiling and variable gameplay would actually ruin that for them. Like hell, a lot of parse heavy people don't like BLM just because it doesn't fit cleanly with the 2 min burst meta, even though BLM has one of the highest skill ceilings in the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aravell
Ego and Parse Andies don't want additional uncontrollable factors in between pulls. They don't like RNG, they don't want variety. They just want the same consistent, simple gameplay, over and over again, which is honestly what we have now job design-wise.
Like if I want to lord over people, I'd be lobbying against gameplay variety, and I'd just go around and call people that complain about it bad, or "don't understand" and tell them to play another game. -
06-15-2023, 11:36 AMEorzean_username
I think part of the reason these discussions tend to end up with people constantly talking past each other is that actual players are more complex than broad groupings properly-capture.
All of these people actually exist in FFXIV:
The player who actually gets angry if you suggest changing their "freestyle" rotation that ignores major Job mechanics and potency logic, because they're "having fun" or "roleplaying".
The player who egotistically sneers at anyone who's not optimizing their rotation in even trivial ways. Usually they communicate in a Pidgin English composed primarily of Twitch emotes and Discord emojis.
The player who's pretty damn good at their Job, but doesn't really mind if other people aren't, and just kind of chills and plays the game well with their own dedicated group of like-minded players.
The player who desperately wants to earn the social accolades that they perceive as coming from parsing fabled colours like orange and pink, but just doesn't have the inherent chops to do it, and becomes agitated and frustrated about every last optimization as a result.
They player who's not really here to parse; they just like the challenge of playing their Job well. Their parse is a side-effect of doing that, and a measurement tool, but they don't consider it a colour-coded superiority contest.
The player who really just wants to see and clear all the content, no matter how hard it is. Playing their rotation correctly is a side-effect of wanting to be able to clear difficult content, but it's not their primary reason for being here, so they're not that bothered about how easy, hard, depthy, or shallow a Job is, but instead focus on how tactically-useful it is.
The player who's just chillin'. They participate a little bit in all content. They try to read their tooltips and follow the correct rotation, but if it's too much work, practice, stress, or requires spreadsheets or timelines, they're probably not bothering. They like it when a Job feels "a little detailed", but not "too oppressive".
The player who's just kinda here for the fun fantasy world. They truly don't care if their White Mage spends most of the time Glaring, because they're not really here for the combat depth, but rather, seeing the Story, housing, etc.
...and on, and on, and on.
It's maybe not even a "sliding scale", but more like a "kaleidoscope", and basically each "tier" of complexity will end up turning on, turning off, or not bothering either way, different segments of this relatively-broad and complex population.
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What I'm trying to say is that you can certainly crank up the fabled "ceiling" on Summoner — but how much?
I believe that you'll have someone disappointed at every new "increment" of complexity — and in both directions. Because it's ultimately a very personal and subjective determination what "a good ceiling" actually is.
For example:
There are players who would be genuinely-happy if Ruby Rite and Slipstream were turned into instant casts, and Crimson Cyclone was turned into a ranged attack.
There are players who would be genuinely-happy if Summoner just had a few more failure-points, an "actual" filler phase (ie, casting), and maybe at least one "real" Gauge to manage.
There are players who would still "eh" away from Summoner unless its design reached full-sweat theoretical Black Mage tiers of complexity, like ShB SMN on cocaine.
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...I think that every time someone says, "I just want this Job to have more skill expression" (or, conversely, "I just want this Job to be less difficult to play"), it's always unconsciously-coloured by that player's very personal and subjective limits.
For example:
Let's say that Summoner damage was increased to be higher than Black Mage.
However, literally all of Summoner's actions are now 4.0s casts, and each Gem phase has a strict 16 second timer that begins when a Summon cast finishes.
That would certainly make Summoner much more challenging to play... but it would probably be abandoned by very nearly everyone. Because, while it would take "skill" to execute that rotation successfully, even dedicated players would probably find it too oppressive to be worth the trouble.
However, there would probably be, say, 10 die-hard players around the globe who would passionately enjoy the challenge of figuring out how to play "Slow Summoner" in actual content.
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I have a concern that arguments about "skill expression" and "skill ceiling" really don't have an objective standard, and inevitably end up being something like:
...And which Job belongs in which category slides around depending on who the beholder is.- Easy for me to do even without practice → "Braindead"
- Easy for me to do with a bit of practice → Poor skill ceiling
- Hard, but I can do it with practice/planning → Good skill ceiling
- Hard, but I can't do it, even with practice → "Overtuned"
I say this because, if "skill expression" was really an objective, universal quality, Jobs like BLM and MNK seem like they would have higher play rates in higher-end content. Instead, they tend to be minority picks, even amongst seasoned players, which leads me to think that everyone has their own threshold about what kind of "skill ceiling" and "skill floor" and "skill expression", and so on, that they actually want.
To be clear, I'm not intending to mock any of those "skill" criteria, nor saying that you're wrong for considering and valuing them — I'm only trying to caution that it's probably not so simple to "Goldilocks" a given Job to the point that you actually want it to be at... and that if you manage to get it that way, it will probably end up being a personal, rather than universal, fit. -
06-15-2023, 11:41 AMseolhyunwhat??? how will i FEEL like a summoner if i am not smashing my gemshine button for 10 min straight!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Aravell
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06-15-2023, 01:24 PMRaikaiForgot to post to this comment, because is a specific point that needs attention - I think is flawed beyond the job's structure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
FFXIV is not good in explaining mid to advanced mechanics. Basic stuff like the concept of weaving. I remember back in my sprout days, it took be quite a while to realize what weaving was, or even that double-weaving was a thing.
Some stuff you may eventually figure out, maybe through someone's criticism, like that (sadly) is important to follow the 2min meta. Or even more obscure things, like that the cagetory difference between a 'spell' and an 'ability' is important.
I'll never forget that I spent a LONG time thinking that Fey Illumination buffed all of my actions, and after reading a comment somewhere I realized that the healing boost was exactly for the actions I shouldn't be optimally using (gcds) and not everything, because the tooltip's wording is extremely vague. It says that buffs healing magic... How a new player is supposed to know that 'abilities' is not considered magic even though they are presented visually like magic spells? Please someone correct if I'm wrong and this changed, but I don't think this is explained anywhere in the game. -
06-15-2023, 01:48 PMIvtrixIt’s a big failure on the devs & the games part, especially when higher level content is balanced around it. Maybe it’s already assumed that players participating in that content will already seek 3rd party resources, but it should really be built into the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raikai
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06-15-2023, 03:50 PMRenathrasAgreed. Weaving is such a basic concept, people barely even explain it, since most everyone just assumes everyone knows it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raikai
I didn't figure out the difference until one day I noticed playing PotD how some floors would lock me out of Abilities but I could still use my normal spells, and how the Pacification blocks Spells/Weaponskills but I could still use those other abilities.
It was after that I looked through the spell list and noticed that keyword the first time.
At this point, I still didn't know what an "oGCD" was nor the concept of "weaving"; I only knew that "Ability" meant "think I can use instantly even while the other weaponskills/spells cannot be used yet, and which I can use while pacified" and "Spell" meant "thing that is not an ability".
Shortly thereafter, I was watching guides about SCH (this was in SB, I'd been playing since around 2.4) and they talked about weaving. That was the first time I realized "Tetra doesn't just cast faster, it ignores the casting que and goes off instantly where those 'Spell' things do not." I had noticed in the past Tetra seemed "more responsive", which was my wording for it at the time, but I didn't understand WHY that was, which was that it ignored/was exempt from the GCD. That wasn't really apparent. What was apparent was I could "use it whenever", and it was "more responsive". Of course, it was also "more responsive" than Benediction...which is an oGCD, so that one just made things even more confusing.
Coming from WoW in 2013, "Instant Cast" just meant "Instant Cast" to me. The idea there were "Instant Cast" "Spells" (Regen) and "Instant Cast" "Abilities" (Tetragrammaton) is just not a natural thing for someone to just know. "Instant Cast" on one thing and "Instant Cast" on another thing doesn't really explain the distinction to the player. The game has the Spell/Weaponskill and Ability tags, but I doubt many people notice them until they have a specific reason to look through their abilities for them, as I did after PotD and my own observation.
The thing is, understanding oGCDs isn't just important, it's mandatory to come anywhere close to optimal in the game. Even just doing ABC (Always Be Casting), but treating oGCDs like normal spells (waiting 2.5 sec to cast them, then waiting 2.5 sec to cast anything else) is massively suboptimal. For Healers, it's super important since optimization is based on using oGCD heals weaving between damage spells, but this requires you know what an oGCD is and what weaving is. For DPS, it's essential for your opener and burst phases, and not doing it can be a pretty massive DPS difference, sometimes 30+%. And, of course, knowing that buffs that affect "Healing Magic" and "Healing Abilities" are two completely different buffs, with the former not affecting the latter but the latter does affect the former. The game never explains that, either.
It's hugely important, fundamental, even, to understanding Job design and the combat system. But there's pretty much no way for most players to know this without hours/years of playing or reading a guide, as the game never even draws the player's attention to the Weaponskill/Spell/Ability tag to tell them that it's significant. It's not mentioned in Job guides in the game, the help tooltips, Hall of the Novice, nothing.
Clearly, Bob should play SMN and Greg should play RDM (or SMN).Quote:
Originally Posted by Deo14
This isn't a good reason to go to the proposed SMN. In both cases, Bob is going to have a lower performance than Greg, thus Greg is "rewarded" for his "hard work". What's the problem? That Bob is still able to come close to him and thus still allowed to do content without being blacklisted? Should Bob, playing a videogame, not be allowed to do content in said videogame, because...why? He's specifically playing a Job that allows him to contribute meaningfully to the team. What's the problem? If Greg is happy just being challenged, then he can play RDM, Bob can play SMN, and everyone's happy. If Greg doesn't feel challenged enough, he can also try out BLM.
Where is the problem here?
I'm not sure why you're saying this. All that argument would suggest is that RDM needs to be made easier.Quote:
Originally Posted by Deo14
It's also not "only natural for even casual gamers to min max everything". That they don't min max everything is part of what makes them casuals, bu the standard definition used for that term, anyway.
So, what's insisting repeatedly people who enjoy SMN are just lazy Pieces Of Snozberry who want carries and output that they aren't deserving of?Quote:
Originally Posted by Semirhage
While it's easy to make mocking caricatures of people, they're generally just that, caricatures. And if one engages in them, then said one isn't really one to complain when other people use them...except in this case, she didn't even use it.
What's his reason for playing? Because he wants to be good and that's how he has fun, right? Then "playing the job should be the reward". That was literally what was said.
So again, what's the problem with Greg playing RDM or SMN and Bob playing SMN?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivtrix
If Enrages are a problem, then surely we want SMN as an option for Bob so he can still complete the content and contribute meaningfully to his team, do we not?
The problem with this is the justification used by people to increase the skill expression always seems to end up "the players not playing to the optimal level should be doing much less damage". The implication isn't "we want a Job that allows for skill expression" from that. The implication from that justification is "we want to be able to very clearly dominate/lord over people who don't play at our level". At best, it's wanting to look better at the expense of other people looking worse (that is "best" since in that case, it's not an active desire people do worse, it's just a requirement for one to look better).Quote:
Originally Posted by Aravell
If the argument was truly just to be able to have skill expression, then it wouldn't matter how much or how little more damage they were doing. A 100% Energy Drain SCH vs one who doesn't even have ED on their hotbars is ridiculously small. The difference is 300 potency per minute, peanuts. But some people really enjoy it for that reason. No one's contesting the idea of having skill expression. People are contesting what that skill expression should look like, if SMN has it already (some people think it does; you may not believe so, but "skill expression" is not an objective measurement, so it is ultimately subjective), and how big the gap from the floor to ceiling in damage output should be.
No one has an issue with people wanting some expression of skill.
People have an issue with wanting said expression of skill to translate into a huge gulf in damage done. Besides which, it causes a huge problem with encounter design. In order for the "you can play badly and still clear content" to work with a large damage gap, then the encounters must be tuned for the skill floor players. That means skilled players will find even Savages and Ultimates trivial to complete. On the other hand, if you tune it to where the Enrages require the skilled players damage output, now "you can play badly and still clear content" is out the window. It cannot be both at the same time unless the gap between skill floor and skill ceiling is small.
Of course, the other alternative is just to have at least 1 simple Job and at least 1 complex Job, and let the players play as the one they find best meets their desired skill level.
I think this is a big piece of the issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eorzean_username
Part of it is that people like arguing against strawmen and caricatures - they're much easier to beat in a debate than actual Human beings making actual arguments. Look at Gaius' reply mentioning me. It's completely wrong and probably somewhere deep down he knows it, but he says it and people support him saying it. The people who like saying that people wanting a low gap in damage want to be lazy and get carries...but suddenly are offended when they're treated to a caricature of their own desires as "wanting to lord over" other people. Suddenly caricatures are beyond the pale...until they're ready to call people braindead lazy babies again, then it will become okay again.
But setting aside those people:
The issue really is that it's subjective, and that not everyone wants the same skill ceiling even if it somehow wasn't.
If everyone in this game really wanted skill expression, we'd be drowning in BLMs. They'd be everywhere. All those BLM players would be frustrated that some of them have to play BRD (the...most chaotic?...Ranged) or MNK (Melee), because they really just want to play on the super hard BLM because they enjoy the gameplay and skill expression so much, that even if BLM was the lowest DPS Job, they'd all still be playing it. We'd be looking everywhere to see someone who has "Main Class:" as anything other than "Black Mage Lv 90". Yet not even the people pushing for SMN change are BLM mains.
...we don't see that in the playerbase as a whole, either. We see the exact opposite, with even very highly skilled players swapping to SMN in a heartbeat.
That doesn't seem to show a playerbase - even of the Ultimate raider type - that wants this mythical high skill expression Job..
And the change to nerf SMN doesn't seem to be because some people want to just express their awesome skill for the fun thrill of it. That they want to do more damage suggest they either want other people to be unviable and unable to clear content or alternatively, that they want people to notice when they're doing so much better than their friend Bob and how much better than Bob they are, which requires the gap be really big for people to notice...and, of course, that people need to be running illegal software against the TOS to even see the difference, since there's no way anyone can tell in a boss fight directly.
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People need to just understand that not everyone thinks like them. FFXIV doesn't have specs like WoW, so that means Jobs are like specs. That's just the way it is.
If you want a super high skill ceiling caster, it's right there as BLM.
If you aren't playing that, that's your choice.
But you might want SMN's aesthetic with a higher skill ceiling. That's fair. But others might want BLM's aesthetic with a lower skill ceiling. Are you willing to offer them that? Probably not.
There are, absolutely, some people who want to put a dipping bird on their keyboard and get carries. There are also, absolutely, some people who want big damage gaps explicitly so they can show everyone how much better they are and point and laugh at the people they're leaving in the dust, gaining notoriety at the direct expense of others.
...but these are (I hope) the minority.
Thing is, FFXIV's Job system doesn't really allow much besides an all or nothing. Either a Job is easy or it's not. And if a Job has to have a lot of extra damage to "reward" people who want the harder skill ceiling, then that makes it non-viable anyway, meaning "you can play bad and still clear" goes out the window.
The only solution that works is to have at least 1 Job be easy and at least 1 Job be hard. The only alternative to that is for a Job to be hard, but where playing it "at a base level" does 99% of the damage. That is, where getting that last 1% requires massive skill and work, but both are entirely viable. But then the people who say they're just in it for "skill expression" will complain that they aren't being "rewarded with damage".
So that leaves us with the other option: At least 1 easy, at least 1 hard, let people pick the one that matches their desired level of dedication.
So then we're at an impasse and the only solution that gives everyone something is if some Jobs have high and some Jobs have low. As Eorzian_username said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eorzean_username
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06-15-2023, 04:43 PMAravellI can see your point, but the other side also has a point. Skill expression should have a gap, perhaps not a huge one, but it should at least be there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
Let's use the example from above, so we have Bob and Greg, let's say Greg is performing at 90% efficiency and Bob is performing at 70%. If the skill expression gap is about, let's say 8%, Bob will lose some damage but will still be performing at 62% efficiency, this would not gate him from any content, he still has enough skill to clear extremes, even savage, perhaps not week 1 savage, but he can still clear it.
It's also my opinion that clearing hard content should require some form of skill. Take any other game for example, playing on hard mode would require you to at least understand the game and perform gameplay at a decent level, and that's exactly what savage is, a hard mode. People who want to clear savage fast will put in the time to learn and get better, people who don't, they can still clear savage, just a little bit later when they have more gear. No one is really being gatekept out of any content if there's a noticeable gap in skill, 5-10% won't hurt anyone. I understand that people want to do as good as possible, but is it fair to be just as skilled as someone who has put in way more hours in that same job? -
06-15-2023, 05:07 PMShougun
I think there can be complex jobs, for players who like that this is important, but I don't think those jobs should get inflated damage by default. I would say their kit potentials is where they should or should not be taxed, and it's important to include if the job taxes itself to do that (for example using your fast cast, or burning damage, clemency is not the same as nascent flash, etc), and honestly even if it does come back to damage the first thought should be balancing for fun (and different audiences). Unfortunately as our jobs are essentially 'specs' like you might see a shadow priest or holy priest in WoW that therefore means if you like the black mage theme but don't like the mechanics... tough, too bad lol. I do think there should be effective easy jobs, as well as effective complex jobs- neither made worse or better assuming a skilled player plays both.
One thing that always makes me smirk a little (little chocobo turd I am lol) is when I see more complex, highly theme'd, hardcore players blaming casuals on lack of job identity. Yet when the ice mages are clearly the casual you don't pay my subs, they were going to do whatever they wanted anyways- there is no gameplay value destroying a job so 1 button sam can still somehow mess up their rotation and be surprised they can summon a phoenix. It's clearly only valuable to homogenize due to the bean count at end game. We could very well have greater imbalanced jobs for MSQ content, wouldn't matter we're going to clear easy street anyways- you can't do that in tighter content without hell escaping.
Sure 1 button sam may want an 'easy' to play job, but that's honestly separate from interesting to play or high / low skill range. Where even that skill range is not really worth addressing at MSQ if the content is designed to be essentially completed by a third or even a quarter of the group. In terms of fun / flavor being dumped, again that would be a high end content issue (or devs allocating challenging tasks to easier controls). As seen more easily in say MOBAs where we can quickly template 4 buttons, some with two passives lol- easy characters being OP, hard characters under performing in the wrong hands, etc.
I think a lot are playing SMN currently because it's the most logical job (it's also probably the easiest), but also, imo, many FF fans are probably going "SMN, I AM A SMN!" lol. Chicken nugget, hot dorrito, and old booger* SMN had quality gameplay, imo, but felt awful to watch (imo lol). Now you've got a smooth experience with fantastic visuals. Already said before that I think the job is insanely simple prior to 86 and would like to see that brought in sooner, so I'm not like "perfect" but I can say someone who is loving PvP flavor and wishing more of our kits were unique.. that SMN (86+) is one of my more favorite to play currently, even though it is mentally the least challenging (purty lights, logical steps).
I actually really dislike playing BLM in roulette because the job changes too much and I don't play it enough to remember how many flares, converts, or whatever is most optimal. Annoys me to play as it syncs around lol. Ninja probably my second least favorite, I can totally do the ninjitsu thing I just dont like to. That said I don't want BLM or NIN to change because I didn't love some aspect.
*The chibi are kind of cute, but I was rather flabbergasted in 2.0 when they chose to represent one of the most visually grandiose and gorgeous jobs in gaming history with half formed chibi sprites. So no hate to whoever made them, but definitely had me scratchin my noggin on why they originally made SMN. Fun warlock, super iffy SMN.
Also someone pour one out for all the ranged physical that get nerfed damage while the melee have huge circles to play with these days lol.
Anyway tl;dr- I don't think challenge of a job should be bound to output. I don't mind the idea that each job has some room for good decisions and bad decisions though, but that is independent of the general concept of harder job does bigger brrrr on boss's face :D. -
06-15-2023, 06:11 PMDeo14I've explained basically same thing in my next comment, right after I posted my masterpiece, here's link:Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
Anyways, the "Greg should play RDM, and Bob SMN" is meta gaming, which by your own words, casual gamers don't do. Neither Greg or Bob should be pushed towards one job because it offers skill expression and other don't, they should freely pick whichever they like more because of visuals and job fantasy. But that's the problem, current state will make only Bob happy if he's playing SMN, while Greg won't be happy playing either of the two jobs. Bob will be sad playing RDM because it's "too hard", and Greg will not enjoy RDM because he needs to put in much more effort than SMN for same outcome, and if he plays SMN, he won't find any skill expression in here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Deo14
As for "RDM should be made easier", I suggest you to make a thread in DPS forums and ask RDMs how will they feel about that. It won't be small changes, to make RDM on the same level as SMN, you would realistically need to remove dualcast and make nearly all spells instacasts, remove melee and so on.
Even casuals in le**ue of le**ends and DotA 2 use guides to help them play optimally and min max everything. Key difference is that those guides are directly in the game and made by community. So yes, FFXIV should definitely make learning things in game much easier, but at the same time, it's important to acknowledge that finding optimal rotation with guide explaining whole job takes half a minute. -
06-15-2023, 06:32 PMTanis_EbonhartNo, they're asking to change the job to give it more pointless busy work and making it more complicated for no good reason. Summoner is being played more than ever because it has less busy work and is less complicated than other Jobs. Why should Summoners, the majority enjoying it as is, be told that the Job they like is "wrong" and should be made just as complicated and full of busy work as other Jobs? It isn't fair to them at all. If players want more busy work or more complicated jobs then they have options. Don't take this away from those that enjoy Summoner just because the more complicated/busy work jobs have issues that the Summoner doesn't have.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aravell
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06-15-2023, 08:47 PMVentVanitasyou know whats also unfair? players that enjoyed pre-EW SMN being alienated by the rework and having no near-equivalent job to turn to. lmaoQuote:
Originally Posted by Tanis_Ebonhart
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06-15-2023, 08:56 PMGaiusDrakonI mean it's a cockroach who's glad that the apple pie fell to the floor so it and its cockroach friend can savor the pie near its nest instead of having to climb the table for once.Quote:
Originally Posted by VentVanitas
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06-15-2023, 09:52 PMIvtrixYou realize no one is asking for button bloat right? Busy work for the sake of busy work sucks. What people are saying is that the current design of summoner fundamentally breaks the dynamic of the caster role.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tanis_Ebonhart
You seem to be taking issue since you so strongly cling to the current summoner that you’re taking this as a personal attack. Chill out. The job is going to be changing in less than a year anyways with the coming of 7.0
What people don’t like about SMNs current design is that it’s literally only a bread and butter job. There are no optional side dishes that you can experiment with to enhance your experience. No rice, no meat, no cheese, no sauces. Bread and butter only.
You seem to think that there are complicated jobs in this game. There are not. Every single job in this game is very easy to play at its core values. Even BLM, which the community needs to stop putting on a pedestal thinking that it takes 500iq to cast fire until mana empty then cast ice until mana full. The difficulty comes from job optimization which for most players like you, is optional content. It’s not needed. I don’t expect a RDM who doesn’t raid savage to even be aware that you need to acceleration once per melee combo otherwise fletch or contre come off cooldown while you are in the middle of a cast. It’s a very minute optimization that outside of savage is 100% optional to perform. Another good example is RDM holding its first recast of contre for 2 seconds so that it naturally aligns with fletche at all points thereafter. SMN does not have anything in its kit that allows you to do that. Because of this its entire damage is just baked into its bread and butter.
There is very little that differentiates an average SMN with an elite SMN, assuming both players can roll their GCD. -
06-15-2023, 10:13 PMAravellThis has always been strange. I don't understand why so many people hold BLM on a high pedestal when the standard rotation is so simple and easy to execute at a base level. Just rotate fire and ice, keep thunder up, don't overcap polyglot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivtrix