TOP cleared with no healers

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ivtrix

Guys, while it does show a big glaring weakness in fundamental mmo role triangle, let me assure you that this fight is in fact hard enough with healers.

Player skill is a huge factor, the players who managed to get this to work are exceptionally talented.

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"i didnt read the thread but everything is fine guys move along"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Stormpeaks

"i didnt read the thread but everything is fine guys move along"

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nah, there are clear issues between encounter and balance design, tank sustain is pretty high right now and there is some healer powercreep in dps kits like mantra and curing waltz that can be optimized. its easy to identify the weakpoints but i main dps i dont really have any critical insights on to what needs to be changed

its good to collect feedback while we wont see significant changes until 7.0, it just feels like we have been having this conversation all expansion.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Renathras

TOP has - 0 Healer clear, people found it either too hard or boring, people using zoom hacks
Prior one did - 1 Healer clear
Prior to that did - in the sense of the "dropped/missing" Ultimate from ShB

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Stormblood Ultimate was completed with 8 tanks.

O4 Savage was completed on content with no healers

EX's are routinely done without healers in the same patch they're introduced

Tanks can solo kill 8 person raid boss by themselves

Yoshi says due to the healer shortage, "Please give healer a try" (paraphrasing)

Yoshi says if you want a challenge, as a healer, to go try ultimate while making it able to be cleared without the entire healing role.

And the guy wonders why there's an insane healer shortage.

https://i.imgflip.com/7mh8oy.jpg

Btw, whats this?

https://i.imgur.com/cqzqZiL.png

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Originally Posted by Neoyoshi

Btw, whats this?

https://i.imgur.com/cqzqZiL.png

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a log informing streamer who's watching your stream.

Bilibili is the chinese version of Youtube.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Renathras

Encounter design is the problem, and must be addressed first, otherwise nothing else mattes. "give healers more dps buttons"; okay, that makes players that enjoy DPSing happy (but we already have 11 Jobs exclusively for that...), while making those who play Healers because they don't enjoy dps very unhappy (which is a problem), but still ends up with 1/0 Healer clears, doesn't it? How does that fix the problem?

It doesn't.

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The whole point of doing content without healers is because if there is nothing to heal then what healer role brings to the group is subpar as their dmg is generally lower than tank/dps - they are effectively a detriment. 1 WAR 3 DPS expert roulette is faster.

Bringing healer DPS to tank level with optimal group play would ensure that if there is not much to heal group speed is better and healer does not fall asleep as they have actual damage rotation.

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Originally Posted by Aword3213

a log informing streamer who's watching your stream.

Bilibili is the chinese version of Youtube.

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Ahhh, oki doki thank you. :)

EDIT; as my take on this and my thoughts as a much older mmorpg gamer. This sort of thing is really nothing new- as much of a spectacle as it may seem to some viewers, i wouldn't allow it to make you feel like something is fundamentally broken.

gamers for generations have found ways to tackle hard situations in video games in either gamer-breaking or unconventional ways, all you have to do is look at older mmorpg's and what their communities have accomplished using non-standard means.

I'm not going to site any examples because google doesn't like keeping old information for very long on the surface-web, and there's too many instances of great gameplay achievements out there.

Again, viewing this through a lens in which the game is broken is a lazy way to look at this, and it's also possible that perhaps a lot of us aren't as good at gaming as we'd like to think we are. Let your egos go for a minute.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

Efficiency is an argument, but not this one.

This argument is "what roles are not needed for content" (usually "Healers aren't even needed for 4 mans, much less harder content!"), but we've had all Tank clears of Pandaemonium raids, all Tank clears of Ultimates (not on patch, but still synced), no Healer, no DPS, and no Tank clears of 4 man Experts, and both no Healer AND no Tank clears of Extremes.

The no Healer clear of TOP here was most definitely NOT efficient. <_<

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It still remains applicable though.

You posited several times now why no one ever argues Tanks or DPS aren't needed. Efficiency is the answer. People pulling off no tank runs are doing it for challenge sake or just to see if it's possible but tanks still provide value whereas that same value gets increasingly diminished for healers. Like I said with Rubicante, while it can be done without a tank you're not going to beyond a clear or two for the giggles because it's both annoying to deal with fluctuating aggro and a much slower killtime due to the Scholar having to GCD heal. Meanwhile, a Warrior won't lose any damage and can heal just fine. Paladin makes it even easier as they can Cover the DPS targeted for the buster and invuln their own.

I never said it was. That falls under the "can we do it?" category. What I said was: "Translating this to TOP. No one is going to drop Healers in Ultimate but it does show their overall contribution to the fight are substantially less than everyone else by virtue of the encounter having minimal healing requirements and their kits being overbloated with ways to heal what's actually there."

To further elaborate on this, DPS have the highest engagement due to the damage check, party responsibility is high because of mitigation checks and there are a few tank specific mechanics otherwise they can fall back on their DPS rotation to keep them engaged. What do healers have though? Their abundance of healing tools clearly aren't necessary, mitigation isn't unique to any one role and they have nothing to fall back on beyond a one button "rotation." Nerfing every other aspect won't magically make the role engaging. Maybe Holos and Macro won't be a huge overheal or Lilybell will tick more than twice. Even if you do have to trade in a few Glare casts for Medica II, you'll inevitably be back to spamming Glare. Hence why healers themselves also need to be addressed. They're simply too strong, with far too many answers for practically every situation.

Now the reason you constantly see people bring up wanting to give Healers a damage suite similar to Tanks is because, frankly, a lot of us have long given up on the dev team doing anything to make healing relevant again. They seem far too afraid of making it too difficult for inexperienced players. So our only other recourse is make the Glare spam more interesting.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Stormblood Ultimate was completed with 8 tanks.

O4 Savage was completed on content with no healers

EX's are routinely done without healers in the same patch they're introduced

Tanks can solo kill 8 person raid boss by themselves

Yoshi says due to the healer shortage, "Please give healer a try" (paraphrasing)

Yoshi says if you want a challenge, as a healer, to go try ultimate while making it able to be cleared without the entire healing role.

And the guy wonders why there's an insane healer shortage.

https://i.imgflip.com/7mh8oy.jpg

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Yoshi-P doesn't understand why people don't want to play healers is because he doesn't play one, guy only plays BLM and it's the only job that probably has not seen any drastic changes. It's called bias lol.

I dare him to play healer for few months and see if he finds spamming 1 button 99% of the time "fun".

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Originally Posted by GaiusDrakon

grey healer who never cleared any tier arguing with entropy healer

you love to see it

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I've actually cleared content, unlike you. If you want to be part of this discussion, post on your main. Otherwise, we all know you've never stepped foot into a raid.

And since you like logical fallacies so much: Appeal to authority fallacy on your part.

AND FURTHER: Several of my points are things she either agrees with or has stated herself should be changed in the past or even in these threads the last few days. Meaning at least some of my arguments are her arguments.
(A total waste of time; sides, I'm a green Healer, tyvm, Blue in most content, and this is while not having a Static, not doing parse runs, and not running any third party software to curate my "best" runs; do you even have a single healer clear of anything? Not to mention your clear history is not very impressive. Those who live in glass houses...)

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Bah, made a concise response and then managed to nuke it.

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Yeah, done that before. It sucks so much.

Anyway, the big change has to be the encounter design. If it doesn't change, nothing else will be relevant. Doing any of the Healer changes won't matter if the encounters don't change. If we change the Healer kits like I suggested above, you'd still be able to 0 Healer TOP clear. On the other hand, if we made the encounter design changes, you could probably solo heal TOP, but you'd still actively need a Healer, so this would be an improvement on the current state. Meaning if we only get one, OR we do one before the other, changing encounter design is the thing that has to happen "first and foremost", hence my use of those words.

The ideal is to change it all as outlined..

"I'm pretty confident that it's not just DPS buttons we are talking about" - this depends on the person. MOST of the Healer forum posters, that is, in fact, their position. I even thought it was your for a long time (perhaps you've changed yours after this TOP clear or something) since every time I suggested more healing requirements/encounter design changes, everyone in there, I believe including you, insisted we couldn't do that because casual healers in casual content wouldn't be able to deal with the change. I even have described my solution (though seldom as concise, I will admit) before and been told "more DPS buttons won't be a problem since people not engaging with them won't alter casual content, casuals just won't be able to clear content they shouldn't be anyway; more healing would mean casuals couldn't clear casual content, so we can't do that".

I'm pretty sure that means "just DPS buttons" has been the solution proposed.

Maybe this TOP clear is changing people's minds on that? You'd have to ask them in there, though, as I'm trying to avoid posting in there for the time being.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ivtrix

Guys, while it does show a big glaring weakness in fundamental mmo role triangle, let me assure you that this fight is in fact hard enough with healers.

Player skill is a huge factor, the players who managed to get this to work are exceptionally talented.

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It is weird how people take "1 in a million people can do this" and go "anyone can do this, so we can make sweeping generalizations from this to support positions we've already held anyway that it doesn't actually support."

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

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3 points:

1) Which of those proves that DPSers aren't needed?

2) Can you prove - objective proof - that there is a "healer shortage" right now?

3) Doesn't this more prove that Tanks are OP?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Somnolence

The whole point of doing content without healers is because if there is nothing to heal then what healer role brings to the group is subpar as their dmg is generally lower than tank/dps - they are effectively a detriment. 1 WAR 3 DPS expert roulette is faster.

Bringing healer DPS to tank level with optimal group play would ensure that if there is not much to heal group speed is better and healer does not fall asleep as they have actual damage rotation.

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Yeah, but you can do that without any additional buttons. Boost their spamnuke power by ~25% and Healers would be doing the same ballpark of damage as Tanks right now.

...you'd still have this solo TOP clear because Healers can't cheese you through Tank mechanics (in a hypothetical 3 Healer, 5 DPS comp) like 3 Tanks can cheese you through Healer LB3 requirements with two Paladins for Cover.

Again, Healers having more DPS buttons doesn't prevent solo Healer runs of anything.

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Originally Posted by Neoyoshi

Again, viewing this through a lens in which the game is broken is a lazy way to look at this, and it's also possible that perhaps a lot of us aren't as good at gaming as we'd like to think we are. Let your egos go for a minute.

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Yeah, there have been some wacky things players have done in gaming through the years. In the past, it was praised, not condemned.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

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My main issue here is when people misrepresent their arguments.

IF people were saying "No roles are actually needed in the game", I'd be like "Yeah, I can see that. That sounds like an everyone/all role/encounter design problem."

IF people were saying "You don't need Healers to be efficient in casual content" (again, the no Healer clears of TOP and Dragonsong were NOT efficient), I'd be like "Yeah, and? Most players don't care about that since most players use DF or will use a standard comp in PF since that's what harder content is designed for and people who aren't part of a high skill coordinated group need the safety net Healers provide."

Neither of those are actually problems.

When you say the first but mean the second, that's misrepresenting/overstating your case. 1T3D Expert roulettes are faster, sure; what percentage of the playerbase does that? Not very many. People without Statics probably don't do it, and the vast majority of the playerbase doing a quick daily roulette in Expert doesn't care to sit in PF or /shout chat making a party "to save time". It's only about 2 mins per run, or 10 mins per week (5 runs if you cap tomes exclusively on Expert roulette 90 per day = 450). The only people that matters to are people chain running Experts to cap in a single day (likely people with Statics who aren't having to spend time making the groups), in which case you only get 40 tomes per run (after the first) and you're actually saving some time (about an hour or less, but that's significant to raiders trying to cap day 1 of a week before raids).

If it's the second, then it's not a problem for the game since it's just an alternative for people with the resources/friend group to be slightly more efficient at doing a thing. If it's the former, that's a more gamewide and design problem. But if your saying the former but arguing the latter, then you're misrepresenting/overstating your position..

As to the last point: Here's the thing, if Healers ARE as redundant as people say, then people who want a damage suit Healer could just be playing RDM or SMN right now and 0 Healer clearing all content. Meaning there's already that "solution" (I'm not saying it's a good one, I'm just saying it's there). Yet people aren't doing this. Because most people recognize that they do, in fact, need Healers in their parties.

Moreover, you underestimate both (a) "make the Glare spam more interesting" will make it "too difficult for inexperienced players" just the same, and (b) that many people play Healers explicitly BECAUSE they don't like damage rotations/DPS Jobs.

.


And the irony of all this is: I'm even in favor of some of the Healers (namely SCH and SGE) getting more extensive damage suites, and have been for a long time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rehayem

I dare him to play healer for few months and see if he finds spamming 1 button 99% of the time "fun".

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I kind of do wonder about this. His main is BLM, and supposedly people have run into his main on the JP Datacenter in content. I wonder if he ever plays or has leveled any other Jobs...?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Neoyoshi

Again, viewing this through a lens in which the game is broken is a lazy way to look at this, and it's also possible that perhaps a lot of us aren't as good at gaming as we'd like to think we are. Let your egos go for a minute.

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It's more that it's the thing setting off the healer community. MNK was in a similar place not long ago.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Neoyoshi

Again, viewing this through a lens in which the game is broken is a lazy way to look at this, and it's also possible that perhaps a lot of us aren't as good at gaming as we'd like to think we are. Let your egos go for a minute.

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Climate change is quickly depleting glaciers, opening up new mountaineering routes that weren't possible before. These routes are, however, treacherous, as the same regions most impacted by climate change are also the places where avalanches and severe weather become more common.

Person A: The fact that John managed to climb Mt. Hegemon through the southern side is insane. It really shows how big a problem climate change is. The Southern route used to be nigh impossible because of how thick the ice sheets are.

Person B: Well let your ego go for a minute. Can YOU climb the same route??????

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Originally Posted by Renathras

"I'm pretty confident that it's not just DPS buttons we are talking about" - this depends on the person. MOST of the Healer forum posters, that is, in fact, their position. I even thought it was your for a long time (perhaps you've changed yours after this TOP clear or something) since every time I suggested more healing requirements/encounter design changes, everyone in there, I believe including you, insisted we couldn't do that because casual healers in casual content wouldn't be able to deal with the change.

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What I selfishly want and what I actually think is a reasonable expectation are two separate things.

In my own eyes, ARR WHM was the absolute peak of healing in this game. Incoming damage was spiky and erratic, our toolkit was slow, inefficient but powerful. Healing was methodical and measured. Good healers could genuinely make a noticeable difference, covering for mistakes and enabling the rest of the group to push the line just that bit harder. If I had my way AoE healing would be cost prohibitive for all but the most essential requirements further forcing us to think about our healing in terms of time and efficiency rather than following the spreadsheet.

But I appreciate that this is every bit as divisive a goal as outright turning healers into fully blown DPS with a few healing buttons.

I get that you don't agree with it, but adding a bit more DPS/support/buff complexity and engagement to the healers is actually the compromise. Because right now the kits are designed to overpower the sort of content I dream of but have never gotten in years. Pruning a bit of the needless fluff and turning it into something interesting to break up the glare spam more actively will get a bit of balance back to our overly heal heavy kits to try and stop us from dogpiling all of our GCDs into the tiniest portion of our abilities.

It doesn't have to be dots for everyone, it doesn't have to be nukes for everyone, it doesn't have to be procs for everyone. It just needs to be something that we can press with decent frequency that brings genuine value to the group irrespective where our parties HP bars are at. That's it.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

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You know what the weird thing about all this is?

I agree ARR WHM was fun. I don't agree with the Cleric Stance "dancing" (which as we've discussed before didn't really happen much since people often didn't "stance dance" so much as "stance stay"). Your "compromise" is what I oppose. The ACTUAL ARR WHM - GCD healing, lots of spot healing, somewhat unpredictable damage, your tools being strong enough to deal with it but requiring actual focus and intelligent choices to manage MP - that I actually support.

Moreover, adding more "DPS/suppoort/buff complexity and engagement" isn't a solution. As I've said and no one has argued against, doing those things would not have prevented the 0 Healer TOP clear or the 1 Healer clears of other content. Because the issue isn't Healers not having enough complexity or buttons. That's not what made those clears possible. It's that encounters do not require much healing, and what they do require, Tanks and DPS can make up for through either mitigation or outright healing. Meaning the "compromise" doesn't actually address the problem. It addresses top end Healer players being bored, not healing in general, the trinity breakdown, encounter design issues, or 0/1 Healer clears.

That means it's not a solution at all.

That's why I don't agree with it. It doesn't address the actual stated problem.

If the problem is "People shouldn't be able to clear Ultimates (or other content in general) with 1 or 0 Healers", then the solution has to address THAT. And the "more DPS/support/buff complexity" doesn't.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

2) Can you prove - objective proof - that there is a "healer shortage" right now?

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Look at any of the Lucky Bancho surveys that come out

(if you wanted a specific world (example)

https://luckybancho.ldblog.jp/wsurve...orld=Carbuncle)

Elemental JP Datacenter:

https://i.imgur.com/6UoySrx.jpg

Primal NA Datacenter

https://i.imgur.com/uGZAXpq.jpg

Chaos EU Datacenter

https://i.imgur.com/pOGiX07.jpg

Notice how these distributions are ridiculously consistent across ALL datacenters? It's almost like there's a trend or something. . .

Healers are by far the lowest represented roll, virtually being non existent in lvl 1-69 content, and barely there after that.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

What do healers have though?

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Its funny when you realize healers rely only on one single target dps spell and one dot spell since Sastasha.

Ok yes they cleared but they were level Asian so we can’t compare

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Notice how these distributions are ridiculously consistent across ALL datacenters? It's almost like there's a trend or something. . .

Healers are by far the lowest represented roll, virtually being non existent in lvl 1-69 content, and barely there after that.

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Healers and tanks is the least played role in every mmo, it's not just an ffxiv thing..
There will always be more players who play dps than tank/heal..
So it's not uncommon or surprising to see.. bc thats how it has been since forever..

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Originally Posted by Zeastria

Healers and tanks is the least played role in every mmo, it's not just an ffxiv thing..
There will always be more players who play dps than tank/heal..
So it's not uncommon or surprising to see.. bc thats how it has been since forever..

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Clearly you haven't played enough MMORPGs then, a prime example is Aion, where majority of characters were actually healers and support characters.

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Originally Posted by SassyAssassin

Ok yes they cleared but they were level Asian so we can’t compare

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Have the scientist finally found the god tier gamer gene yet? I'm sure it's a valuable in the military market with these new fangled things called drones.

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Originally Posted by Rehayem

Clearly you haven't played enough MMORPGs then, a prime example is Aion, where majority of characters were actually healers and support characters.

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No they weren’t. I got begged to run things on my Cleric all the time and lack of healers for groups was a thing.

Edit as I’m out of posts:

https://myaion.eu/Server/22955

Simply wrong. 10k Priest class but 17k people spread over the dps classes. Even more if you count gladiators who are typically dps only. So there. Hard numbers your wrong and so are the people who agree with you who probably didn’t even play Aion.

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Originally Posted by Rehayem

Okay I had to reply to this one, because it's hilarious. You're just literally proving my point about my previous statement, and yet you're deep teeth in trying to prove something you don't seem to correctly understand. For someone who "played" Aion for 9 years, you're just showing me a graph where a big chunk of characters are Clerics and Chanters, which are healers/support. 10k Priests is actually an insane number compared to 17k DPS (including Templars, which are tanks)

The entirety of point of this entire thread is: healers are so fucking numb and boring in FFXIV, that playing another MMORPG just to be a true healer is better than FFXIV in any retrospective. I'm going to die on this hill, and you can keep trying to bicker with me, my statement still stands.

Also, if you're out of posts, then considering slowing down and wait for it to reset, but stop editing your posts because half the time I'm just not going to notice any new added info.

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And, hilariously you are still wrong. They aren’t a majority. And now you are deflecting. I also didn’t include gladiators or Templars. I was being generous not including gladiators as most are dps. If I did the disparity would be higher. You can reread what I wrote or learn to add up the chart yourself.

You continue to say I do not understand when I know what the word majority means. You don’t.

Ps to your ps that you edited in: you are grasping as you are still wrong.

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Originally Posted by ZephyrMenodora

No they weren’t. I got begged to run things on my Cleric all the time and lack of healers for groups was a thing.

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Because the system in Aion was nothing like we have here, synced runs, roulettes and all of that. In Aion, if you were 9 levels above a mob, you would not get drops from monsters, forcing you to either make alts or just buy stuff from the market.

Endgame in Aion was PvP mostly, not PvE, so of course the majority of players were at max level doing that type of content, not low level dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Rehayem

Because the system in Aion was nothing like we have here, synced runs, roulettes and all of that. In Aion, if you were 9 levels above a mob, you would not get drops from monsters, forcing you to either make alts or just buy stuff from the market.

Endgame in Aion was PvP mostly, not PvE, so of course the majority of players were at max level doing that type of content, not low level dungeons.

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I’m not talking about low level dungeons. I’m talking about everything. I played Aion for 9 years.

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Originally Posted by ZephyrMenodora

I’m not talking about low level dungeons. I’m talking about everything. I played Aion for 9 years.

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Then maybe you didn't play it enough to understand, lack of healers was always a thing, and yet the majority of characters were clerics and chanters. This is coming from me, who mained cleric for years.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rehayem

Then maybe you didn't play it enough to understand, lack of healers was always a thing, and yet the majority of characters were clerics and chanters. This is coming from me, who mained cleric for years.

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Edit: See above edit. Numbers show you are wrong. Also barking up the wrong tree thinking I didn’t play enough to understand. I think you aren’t understanding what a majority means.

Anyway, I agree with the person you responded to. Every trinity-based mmo I’ve ever played people spamming zone chat for tanks and healers, including Aion, and the good ones having their pick of whatever they felt like doing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ZephyrMenodora

No, the majority of characters out of 11 classes at the time I left weren’t clerics and chanters. There was a good number of them but they weren’t the majority. For quite a few years ni one even wanted to play Chanter early on.

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People wanted geared clerics, and majority of people had their own statics and legions to run things with. I don't know what server you played on, but I've had so many people demand geared clerics for PvP (not PvE, mind you) that it was insane, and if you were not geared enough, you wouldn't be picked. My statement still stands.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zeastria

Healers and tanks is the least played role in every mmo, it's not just an ffxiv thing..
There will always be more players who play dps than tank/heal..
So it's not uncommon or surprising to see.. bc thats how it has been since forever..

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Before Shb's lobotomization (and Ew's not addressing any issue with the role) they were easier to find than tanks so now them being so low in % of population should show there is something wrong. All that without mentioning how they've been a constant pain point through the entire expansion with stuff like the "green river" meme

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ZephyrMenodora

No they weren’t. I got begged to run things on my Cleric all the time and lack of healers for groups was a thing.

Edit as I’m out of posts:

https://myaion.eu/Server/22955

Simply wrong. 10k Priest class but 17k people spread over the dps classes. Even more if you count gladiators who are typically dps only. So there. Hard numbers your wrong and so are the people who agree with you who probably didn’t even play Aion.

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Okay I had to reply to this one, because it's hilarious. You're just literally proving my point about my previous statement, and yet you're deep teeth in trying to prove something you don't seem to correctly understand. For someone who "played" Aion for 9 years, you're just showing me a graph where a big chunk of characters are Clerics and Chanters, which are healers/support. 10k Priests is actually an insane number compared to 17k DPS (including Templars, which are tanks)

The entirety of point of this entire thread is: healers are so fucking numb and boring in FFXIV, that playing another MMORPG just to be a true healer is better than FFXIV in any retrospective. I'm going to die on this hill, and you can keep trying to bicker with me, my statement still stands.

Also, if you're out of posts, then considering slowing down and wait for it to reset, but stop editing your posts because half the time I'm just not going to notice any new added info.

PS.- Since you keep editing your post constantly attempting to hide your original statements, let me tell you one thing: the amount of created characters does not represent actual active players currently in game, and the same truth applies to FFXIV, however, we have 4 tanks, 4 healers and 11 DPS, showing a Tank majority over Healers proves how bad healers in this game actually are.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by WaxSw

Before Shb's lobotomization (and Ew's not addressing any issue with the role) they were easier to find than tanks so now them being so low in % of population should show there is something wrong. All that without mentioning how they've been a constant pain point through the entire expansion with stuff like the "green river" meme

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You know what? Let's put aside the fact they were a lot easier to find in prior expansion and dismiss Deceptus' data as well. You know what we can point to instead? The Director and Producer of the game itself literally begging players to "give healers a try" in a Live Letter following is now infamous "Just do Ultimate" response. Notice how in nearly a decade, he hasn't come out asking players to play tanks. It's almost like... that comment and two expansions of complaints and criticisms being ignored have started to have an impact.

There's only so much handwaving people can keep doing before you just have to acknowledge healers aren't in a good spot and haven't been for a long while now.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rehayem

People wanted geared clerics, and majority of people had their own statics and legions to run things with. I don't know what server you played on, but I've had so many people demand geared clerics for PvP (not PvE, mind you) that it was insane, and if you were not geared enough, you wouldn't be picked. My statement still stands.

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In any case, unless I'm reading the link incorrectly, that's showing an EU link with stats for Aion for 2023, in which the stats are fairly meaningless- it's a dead game at this point.

I would agree with Zephr that early on no one had a clue what chanters were good for, and until they got some well deserved class adjustments they a horrid time in PVP. However, depending upon the point in time we're talking about geared clerics were definitely in demand for PVP and were in demand for PVE as well. For PVE clerics definitely had their statics and it wasn't unusual for them to get geared by legions- we had dedicated legion runs for - Besh HM, Padmarashka first clear (that I was in) , boss camping (Omega, Ragnarok,), fort ownership, that would not have been possible without dedicated geared clerics and chanters.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by IDontPetLalas

In any case, unless I'm reading the link incorrectly, that's showing an EU link with stats for Aion for 2023, in which the stats are fairly meaningless- it's a dead game at this point.

I would agree with Zephr that early on no one had a clue what chanters were good for, and until they got some well deserved class adjustments they a horrid time in PVP. However, depending upon the point in time we're talking about geared clerics were definitely in demand for PVP and were in demand for PVE as well. For PVE clerics definitely had their statics and it wasn't unusual for them to get geared by legions- we had dedicated legion runs for - Besh HM, Padmarashka first clear (that I was in) , boss camping (Omega, Ragnarok,), fort ownership, that would not have been possible without dedicated geared clerics and chanters.

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Honestly, gearing in Aion was a total nightmare. With classic releasing, I've played for 3 weeks, realizing that while I hold much love for that game and the memories I made, it's not a game I can fully commit myself to anymore. FFXIV has lots of issues that can be solved, but at least when I played Cleric in Aion, I was actually healing, not spamming 1 dps button for 20 minutes. The issues here are fundamental at best, and one can hope some "good" changes might come in 7.0, but that's just me breathing in copium at this point.

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Originally Posted by Zeastria

Healers and tanks is the least played role in every mmo, it's not just an ffxiv thing..
There will always be more players who play dps than tank/heal..
So it's not uncommon or surprising to see.. bc thats how it has been since forever..

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This. Literally any game you play people don't want to be healer. I think the only game I've ever enjoyed playing a healer on was Overwatch but that's because they actually gave the healers fun mechanics beyond just sitting back and healing. But even then, there was a healer shortage there despite there being healers that played like dps. People like to be flashy and competitive in games, which is something you don't really get on a healer.

But with that said I do think there is a problem with healing in FF14 atm. Just because people don't want to be healers doesn't mean it should be bad for people that do want to. Damage isn't consistent enough for healers to have anything to do and I don't think healers would be complaining about the lack of dps buttons if they actually had reason to be going all out on their healing. It's bad that Barb EX was probably the best fight this expac for healers that want something to do and it's an extreme trial.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Look at any of the Lucky Bancho surveys that come out
...
Healers are by far the lowest represented roll, virtually being non existent in lvl 1-69 content, and barely there after that.

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That's not how you prove there's a Healer shortage. First, the Level 90 (which is what counts; 1-59 tells you very little since there's only 1 Healer Job even AT levels 1-30), and notice that from 70-90, the three left circles and once you have all Healing Jobs, the nuumber is stable across them?

What you'd need to do to prove there is a shortage is two things:

1) Show that ques/PFs are unable to make - AT LARGE SCALES, not a few anecdotes - due to lack of Healers,

2) Compare these numbers against the prior numbers from Lucky Bancho's surveys, at least 3 but ideally more, to see if there is a trend developing or how these numbers compare. For example, suppose you compared this to the ShB and SB numbers and there were more Healers at 90 now than were at 80 in ShB or at 70 in SB. Would that prove there's a shortage NOW? No, it would show that there's a surplus compared to historic trends.

So you need to do that if you're going to try using those numbers as proof. And I'm not saying this to disparage you - I'd like to see you do that since I'm genuinely curious if we have more or less Healers at 90 now than we had at 80 in ShB or 70 in SB. Can you do that? Would be neat to actually see the perecentages. Also, could you get these as percentages not, "what's the raw number of X which is (I assume?) overrepresented vs the standard 1/1/2 party distribution"?

That is, the circle in the bottom left, for example. Looks like 25% Tanks, 55-60% DPS, 20% Healers? We need to know that to compare against the historic values and see if it's up or down vs the historic trend.

Conversely, can you give me a link to the data and the past iterations? I might do this myself since I'm interested now...

.

EDIT: (No one's posted, so no reason to double post)

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Originally Posted by Rehayem

Clearly you haven't played enough MMORPGs then, a prime example is Aion, where majority of characters were actually healers and support characters.

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Yes, but notice the "and support". You'd have to provide statistics, but there's an interesting thing. Looking at the Pantheon (MMO) poll results of "What role do you want to play?", their playerbase almost always splits around 15-20% Tanks, 15-20% Healers, 30-35% DPS, 30-35% Control/Support since they're going for a four-role Quaternity instead of a three-role Trinity. That is as many potential players of that game want to play the fourth role as want to play DPS. That's a pretty eye opening statistic.

Why is this important?

There is a huge class of underserved players in games who want to play a Support. No matter the MMO, historically, those that offer a Support role often see something like 20-30% of their players choose it. Support is distinct from Healing, as many people who want to Support don't care much about health bars or "playing wack-a-mole" with party health. They don't exactly want to be a DPS, but they don't really want to be a Healer, either. In games that offer them a dedicated role, they jump on it. In games that do not, they play what feels similar to it.

In FFXIV, these players have several options. In ARR, they mainly played SCHs and BRDs. In HW, before SB, they largely played Healers, especially AST, and occasionally still BRDs. But when SB released, the game was introduced to RDM, which became immensely popular as a Support/DPS hybrid in a game that often didn't allow blurring of the roles. At the same time, PLD became a more Support focused Tank with the powerful Clemency spell and a more party support feel. SB is also, historically, when the Healer role reached its minimum percent of the total population from what I was able to get using the Wayback machine (did this in the Healer forum a few months back). And in ShB, this was reinforced with DNC. While BRD had a lot of its party utility stripped (initially almost all of it, to tremendous outcry until there was a reversal), DNC was made into almost a straight Support/buffer class. And in EW, SMN's complete kit rework made it something of a Support/DPS hybrid as well. Notably, DNC and SMN's support is part of their standard rotation in large part.

Point is: You cannot assume "Support" transfers 1-to-1 to "Healer" in different games. I've never played Aion but just loaded up their Class page. As far as I can tell, there are 6 main archetypes (Warrior, Scout, Mage, Priest, Technist, Muse) that seem to roughly correlate to "Tank", "Melee", "Caster DPS", X (will get back to this), "Ranged DPS", Y (will get back to this)

X consists of exactly ONE Healer class, Cleric, and one buffer Support class, Chanter (Enchanter?) - "inspire the morale of allies" "strengthen allies". While this could be something like an AST, a Healer with buffs, the description seems more of a buffer. The description bullet points include "Is able to use some recovery and healing abilities." Conversely, Y consists of Songweaver ("lifting their allies' hearts and spelling their enemies' doom with the power of song") which sounds more like BRD than like a Healer, or perhaps a BRD mixed with a RDM; "can reduce opponents stats and control their movement" sounds like a Control/Support, not a Healer. The closest thing to healer there is "Viable secondary healer when accompanied by a Cleric", and Vandal, which is a ranged physical damage dealer and debuffer with a "Variety of control effects".

Strictly speaking, only Cleric there sounds like "Healer", with the other three being a buffer with "some" heals, a debuffer/control (control effects are also used too describe the Songweaver) with magic song damage and crowd control effects, with some limited "secondary" healing, and a full Control class that seems to not even mention Healing.

If a Vandal were to play FFXIV, for example, would that player be playing a Healer? Probably not. They'd probably be playing a DPSer.

.

You cannot compare a 4 role game to a 3 role game, since the fourth role does not 1-to-1 transfer to one of the three roles. The reality is that it probably splits up. I would wager most people inclined to play a Chanter or Songweaver in Aion play RDM or DNC in FFXIV. And I have no idea why I think this, but I feel like Vandal players would more likely play DRK. :) Knowing nothing about its history or playstyle, it just strikes me as DRK-like somehow...

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Originally Posted by Rehayem

Because the system in Aion was nothing like we have here, synced runs, roulettes and all of that. In Aion, if you were 9 levels above a mob, you would not get drops from monsters, forcing you to either make alts or just buy stuff from the market.

Endgame in Aion was PvP mostly, not PvE, so of course the majority of players were at max level doing that type of content, not low level dungeons.

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So...why did you try to compare it at all, then? It doesn't seem remotely comparable...

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Originally Posted by ZephyrMenodora

No they weren’t. I got begged to run things on my Cleric all the time and lack of healers for groups was a thing.

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So...I take it my general assessment was correct, then?

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Originally Posted by Rehayem

Then maybe you didn't play it enough to understand, lack of healers was always a thing, and yet the majority of characters were clerics and chanters. This is coming from me, who mained cleric for years.

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From what I can tell, Chanters aren't Healers, they're more akin to RDMs.

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Originally Posted by WaxSw

Before Shb's lobotomization (and Ew's not addressing any issue with the role) they were easier to find than tanks so now them being so low in % of population should show there is something wrong.

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Yes, but perhaps not what you think.

What else happened?

In science, what you're doing is known as "violation of ceteris paribus". "ceteris paribus" means "all other things held constant" (or close to). If you want to compare two things directly, you try to do this. The problem is, if other things WEREN'T held constant, you have to factor in those effects. From SB to ShB, Tanks were made far easier to play, especially WAR. Further, a new and very cool, very hyped Tank Job was added, and one that has a strong appeal to Melee DPS players. This saw an explosion in Tank players, with many former DPS players shifting their main to Tank.

"Tankxiety" was vastly reduced across the board, and GNB played more like a Melee DPS than a Tank, appealing to players who enjoyed playing DPSers.

While you an argue that Healer numbers declined, you can't ignore that Tank numbers exploded. The reason it's easier to find Tanks today is that Tanking became much more popular once it got more braindead and even had a Melee-DPS-like Tank Job added to the game to appeal to non-traditionally Tank players.

In theory, SGE was going to be the same for Healers (a Healer Job that appeals to Caster DPS players), but of course, it isn't since it doesn't focus on a Caster DPS rotation.

Moreover, SCH was "lobotomized". WHM was more or less the same as it was before, and ShB WHM was FAR better than SB WHM (the only iteration of WHM in FFXIV's history that was better than ShB's was maybe ARR's), which saw an explosion of WHM players at the same time.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Notice how in nearly a decade, he hasn't come out asking players to play tanks.

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Whut? o.O

The entire reason for making GNB play like a Melee AND removing Threat/Damage stances from Tanks was because there was a massive Tank shortage in SB. I could be wrong, but I think Yoshi P said something akin to "Give Tanks a try" back around 5.0's launch. So yes, he has done so within the last decade...

SOURCE CITATION AND FIVE DIFFERENT ACADEMIC JOURNAL ARTICLES REQUIRED.

*Not required if it supports Ren's argument about the majority of the playerbase liking X.

I was about to reply, but the moment guy compared FFXIV's RDM to Aion's Chanter, I just gave up, man didn't even play Aion and yet is trying to make comparisons lol

"Point is: You cannot assume "Support" transfers 1-to-1 to "Healer" in different games. I've never played Aion but just loaded up their Class page. As far as I can tell, there are 6 main archetypes (Warrior, Scout, Mage, Priest, Technist, Muse) that seem to roughly correlate to "Tank", "Melee", "Caster DPS", X (will get back to this), "Ranged DPS", Y (will get back to this)

X consists of exactly ONE Healer class, Cleric, and one buffer Support class, Chanter (Enchanter?) - "inspire the morale of allies" "strengthen allies". While this could be something like an AST, a Healer with buffs, the description seems more of a buffer. The description bullet points include "Is able to use some recovery and healing abilities." Conversely, Y consists of Songweaver ("lifting their allies' hearts and spelling their enemies' doom with the power of song") which sounds more like BRD than like a Healer, or perhaps a BRD mixed with a RDM; "can reduce opponents stats and control their movement" sounds like a Control/Support, not a Healer. The closest thing to healer there is "Viable secondary healer when accompanied by a Cleric", and Vandal, which is a ranged physical damage dealer and debuffer with a "Variety of control effects".

Strictly speaking, only Cleric there sounds like "Healer", with the other three being a buffer with "some" heals, a debuffer/control (control effects are also used too describe the Songweaver) with magic song damage and crowd control effects, with some limited "secondary" healing, and a full Control class that seems to not even mention Healing."

You would be incorrect. During the time I played Aion, from closed beta up until around the end of 2021 (so if memory serves that would be 12 years) , on a number of classes including both cleric and chanter, as classes were adjusted, and instances, aside some exceptionally difficult PVE content or PVP matches, a chanter could solo heal , and that left the group free to do whatever they wanted - sometimes to bring a DPS cleric - since a decently geared DPS spec cleric was once of the highest DPS in the game- OR bring another DPS.

Also, in some conditions, a songweaver could also solo heal a group , given the correct spec as well but that spec was quite rare (i.e. usually SW went DPS spec) . However it was quite possible.

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Originally Posted by Rehayem

I was about to reply, but the moment guy compared FFXIV's RDM to Aion's Chanter, I just gave up, man didn't even play Aion and yet is trying to make comparisons lol

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It's par for the course.

Why is there a healer shortage? Really? It’s because this game forces healers to do heavy DPS an a tiny amount of healing. Heck, healers get in trouble if they use their GCD heals as it’s a DPS loss.

In WOW, if I did DPS in a dungeon, there was a very good chance people will die, here I can disconnect, come back after a few minutes and everything is ok.

I play a healer because I want to support and help others, not DPS. I do DPS though so don’t come back on me on that. I do it but I don’t like it.

I wish that healers had more buffs and other mitigations to fill any healing down time. I’d also like to see them have some bonus system where when a healer uses a GCD, it helps charge a gauge that can be used for a DPS buff or other mitigation.

Give me something to do besides DPS and you may see more healers… also, have more healers start at level 1 besides WHM.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rehayem

I was about to reply, but the moment guy compared FFXIV's RDM to Aion's Chanter, I just gave up, man didn't even play Aion and yet is trying to make comparisons lol

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Oh, you have chosen...poorly.

You made a comparison you then said yourself was invalid. I said closest to as far as I can tell. YES, I didn't play Aion because it's a dead game and I liked other games better. That's why I'm not the one comparing Aion to FFXIV.

What this post is really saying:

"I was going to reply, but realized I had no counter to the arguments made, so I'm not going to but am going to present my non-argument as if I won."

Futurama - Will of the warrior: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMdYZG_gdwI
"No girl has the will of the warrior. You have the will of the housewife. Or, at best, the school mom."
"That's it! I'll take you on right now!"
"Very well. But, you see, I have the will of the warrior. Therefore the battle is already over. The winner? Me! Rematch? YOU LOSE AGAIN! HAD ENOUGH?! I THOUGHT SO!"

When you frame your argument as "I don't have to have an argument", then that's this stupidity.

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Originally Posted by IDontPetLalas

You would be incorrect. During the time I played Aion, from closed beta up until around the end of 2021 (so if memory serves that would be 12 years) , on a number of classes including both cleric and chanter, as classes were adjusted, and instances, aside some exceptionally difficult PVE content or PVP matches, a chanter could solo heal , and that left the group free to do whatever they wanted - sometimes to bring a DPS cleric - since a decently geared DPS spec cleric was once of the highest DPS in the game- OR bring another DPS.

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Yay! You actually contested...a small part of...the point: That the Chanter could be considered a Healer, which is 100% in line with my statement that it sounds like the kind of FFXIV AST in HW.

Congratulations for agreeing with me even while you were mocking me.

The phrase you're looking for would be "You would be correct, more or less", not "You would be incorrect".

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Originally Posted by IDontPetLalas

Also, in some conditions, a songweaver could also solo heal a group , given the correct spec as well but that spec was quite rare (i.e. usually SW went DPS spec) . However it was quite possible.

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So...KINDA like...a...RDM...

Thanks for telling me I'm right again without saying I'm right again.

It's funny how you insist I'm talking out my butt...but then say the things I said are correct, just while trying not to word it that way. XD

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Originally Posted by IDontPetLalas

It's par for the course.

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So are people like that not having arguments.

Point is, someone made a stupid comparison, then when called on it, didn't even bother trying to defend it.

.

Can you provide any evidence that people who play SUPPORT roles in 4-role games all play HEALERS in 3-role Trinity games?

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Originally Posted by GaiusDrakon

SOURCE CITATION AND FIVE DIFFERENT ACADEMIC JOURNAL ARTICLES REQUIRED.

*Not required if it supports Ren's argument about the majority of the playerbase liking X.

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/popcorn

I straight up said what information is needed. Asking for a trend instead of a single data point isn't "FIVE DIFFERENT ACADEMIC JOURNALS". Moreover, when I am making arguments, I do cite data such as player numbers AND historic trends. So I'm asking him to do nothing that I don't do myself when I provide data to support positions.

"You lose again!"

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Originally Posted by IDontPetLalas

I would agree with Zephr that early on no one had a clue what chanters were good for, and until they got some well deserved class adjustments they a horrid time in PVP. *Snip for lenght*.

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I agree the game is dead and for good reason. I pre-ordered Aion in 2009 and they later removed pre-order bonuses from all accounts. I've never seen a game just delete people's pre-order account bonuses in my entire life, as though they didn't pay for them. They also were heavily pay to win - I had top PvP and PvE gear because what I lacked in time I made up for in cold, hard cash. Event after event to get people dumping MONEY into the game with in-game advantages in PvP. If you're gear was strong enough, there was little a lesser-geared person could do to you in PVP. They later changed all gear so that it was useless, and you had to start all over. In the past, you could use the same set of gear for years and while not optimal, it still worked. Don't get me started on removing attack and run speed from gloves and boots and moving it mostly to the horrendous candy system that you had to use limited currency on (or..RL cash) to actually look like your human character rather than a stuffed animal. Aion had so many unforgivable practices to me, I'm glad it's about dead. They deserve it.

That doesn't mean Clerics and Chanters were a "majority" as Rehayem claimed. They never were. As a frequent player I actually regularly tracked the numbers on ALL classes, as I wanted to see who was top level. Certain expansions levelling was really slow so you got a sense of how many were levelling quickly and who they were. While Clerics were common classes, and Chanters were improved from "no one wants to play this" to middle of the road, the two simply never had more players than all the DPS classes combined. They just didn't. Rehayem wants us to believe that in most other MMOs, Healers are more popular than DPS. That's laughable and makes me wonder what MMOs he played that this is the case. It wasn't even the case in Aion, which had more healers than most games.

That's not to say that healing here is perfect. I was MT healer in the #1 world-prog raid guild in EQ2. My healing at times single-handedly saved raids, sometimes being the only person alive out of 24 people due to failed mechanics and recovering for a win. My skill expression mattered. I don't feel like it matters here for 95% of my time healing, and for most content a healer is very replacable with a lot of other players with little to no notice.